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waterworks

waterworks

in the luminous darkness
Jan 31, 2024
104
It's Friday, I have no friends or plans, and I'm in my bed just thinking, so here are my thoughts, would love to here people's opinions.

1. Introduction

Definitions: To begin, let's briefly establish what's meant by hell. The word hell originates from the Old English hel or helle referring to the netherworld or the abode of the dead. This term comes from the Proto-Germanic *haljō, meaning "the underworld" or "concealed place," which traces back to the Proto-Indo-European root *kel-,
meaning "to cover" or "to conceal." To the modern person hell has come to mean (per Oxford Dictionary) "a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death."

History: The earliest recorded use of the word "hell" in English to specifically refer to a place of torment dates back to Old English Christian texts, which began to emerge in the late 7th and early 8th centuries. Bede known as "The Venerable Bede" (673-735 AD), an Anglo-Saxon monk and scholar, translated various biblical and theological texts into Old English, using "hell" to translate terms like infernum (latin. underworld, underneath) and gehenna (hebrew. place of punishment). This Old English translation was rooted in the latin word infernum derives from inferus meaning "below" or "underneath," and it was used in early Christian literature to denote the place where souls awaited judgment.

The general consensus is that the then popular understanding of hell was similar to the Greek Hades which referred to a realm of the dead. This word appears many times in the Christian new testament. The old testament had the Hebrew sheol which similarly referred to a realm for all the dead. This later became what in latin was inferus the realm underneath, similarly with hades and sheol.

🤔So how did hell come to mean a place of eternal fiery torment??? You can thank Dante for most of that.

2. The Sociological Argument Against Hell

I can't really say I have a way to argue all of theology. The goal here would be to focus on the religions that have shaped our views on hell. Which is why I won't be focusing on Islam or Hinduism etc. Mainly Judaic and Christian literature.

2.1 Dante's Inferno

You may have noticed that the modern word inferno has roots in the latin word inferus, referred to earlier. Today, inferno has come to mean a place or state containing a raging fire. Though originally the word had little to nothing to do with a raging fire.

Synopsis: The most significant influence on the modern understanding of "inferno" as a fiery place of punishment is Dante Alighieri's epic poem, "Divine Comedy," written in the early 14th century. In Dante's vision of the afterlife, the "Inferno" (Hell) is depicted as a series of descending circles, each containing different punishments for various sins. "The Divine Comedy," is divided into three parts: Inferno (Hell), Purgatorio (Purgatory), and Paradiso (Paradise). Many of the punishments involved fire, interpreting much of the biblical imagery of hell as a place of eternal fire and torment.


🤔But who was Dante? Dante Alighieri was a devout Catholic apart from his poetic endeavors. His faith played a significant role in shaping his worldview and literary works, including "The Divine Comedy". But what makes his Catholic roots so significant, one might wonder.

Overview of "Inferno": In this section, Dante vividly describes a journey through nine concentric circles of Hell, each representing different sins and corresponding punishments. The imagery and descriptions of these punishments, including lakes of boiling blood, fiery tombs, and other torments, had a profound impact on popular perceptions of hell in Western culture. But the funny thing is how it incorporates supposedly "pagan" mythology into its narrative. For instance, Medusa In Greek mythology, is a Gorgon with snakes for hair, whose gaze turns people to stone. In "Inferno," Medusa is depicted as a terrifying figure in the gates of hell

2.2 Catholicism: The Great Oppressor

One of the great wonders of modern Christianity is the diversity of institutions within it. One could say, there's a church born every day. But how did it go from a seemingly united organization under the Papal Roman Church, to what we see now. In one word Reformation. It was sparked by theological and institutional criticisms of the Catholic Church, particularly regarding issues such as corruption, indulgences, and the authority of the Pope. Key figures like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others challenged Catholic doctrines and practices, advocating for a return to what they saw as biblical purity and simpler forms of worship.

🤔What are indulgences and what is purgatory?
Purgatory was (and still is) believed in Catholic theology to be a temporary state after death where souls undergo purification before entering heaven. It was seen as a place where souls could expiate their sins through suffering.

Indulgences were certificates issued by the Catholic Church that promised remission of the temporal punishment due to sins, either for oneself or for the souls of the deceased in purgatory. Funny enough, these certificates were often issued in exchange for monetary gain.

Rejection of Indulgences and Purgatory: Indulgences , which promised remission of temporal punishment for sins, were criticized for their perceived exploitation of believers through financial transactions rather than genuine repentance. Martin Luther's famous 95 Theses, posted in 1517, denounced the sale of indulgences as a corrupt practice that undermined the biblical principle of salvation by grace through faith alone.
🤔But what does this all have to with hell? Reevaluating that the theology surrounding the suffering and torments of hell were born from "spiritual" insight. Historically the main proponents that popularized this were institutions focused on personal gain. Ergo, Dante, from whom much of the modern depictions of hell are taken, was a piece in the cog of the machine that shaped the world. His views mixed then christian narratives with nonchristian mythology to create what essentially amounts to the ultimate scare tactic.

As noted earlier that institutions such as the Catholic Church through centuries have benefited from their tight control over the "afterlife", you could say. Through the mechanisms listed earlier, indulgences etc, they somehow managed to keep money in their pockets and believers under their steeples. In the very definitions of the word hell is a rich history of demented imagery that keeps leading back to the same institution.

3. Conclusion

This is one the reasons I don't find a case for hell compelling. The history and motivations that have often surrounded it, speak to a world troubled by manipulation and greed. An institution that dominated the then known world, creates a terrifying narrative to inspire belief. This narrative is picked up by a somewhat popular poet who creates a masterclass in writing that influences an almost global tradition. Every joke, every piece of artistry, every media sensation that borrows imagery from that work, serves to cement a belief that was born to serve an institution we think we are not related to anymore. Yet they still bind us in chains we don't see.
 
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G

G50

Member
Jun 28, 2023
73
Anyone who has been hit by severe mental health issues, or severe physical pain, knows that hell is a reality here on Earth; to be plunged into hell is something that can happen to any conscious being.

And I think the Catholic Church is correct in asserting that sin can plunge you into hell, at least in one respect: I developed severe mental health issues after catching an infection from kissing a person on a one night stand. If you read health forums, you see that many people also developed physical and mental illnesses from contracting something from kissing. So the Catholic were right in believing that sexual promiscuity is a sin, which can lead to hell. It certainly did in my case.
 
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lacrimosa

Experienced
Jul 1, 2024
233
"The ecclesiastical description of Hell is that of a horrible place of fire and torment; in Dante's Inferno, and in northern climes, it was thought to be an icy cold region, a giant refrigerator. (Even with all their threats of eternal damnation and soul roasting, Christian missionaries have run across some who were not so quick to swallow their drivel. Pleasure and pain, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder. So, when missionaries ventured into Alaska and warned the Eskimos of the horrors of Hell and the blazing lake of fire awaiting transgressors, they eagerly asked: "How do we get there?")" - Anton Lavey, The Satanic Bible
 
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ryba

Member
Apr 13, 2024
21
i am (a bad) Catholic, so i'm a little biased, but i think the Gnostic view of Hell was kinda interesting. as it was explained to me, you shift planes throughout your life. so if you've been naughty for a while and your life starts to fall apart, it's because you are actually in Hell. the reverse is true, too, where your life goes really well because you've been a good person, meaning you have "shifted" to Heaven. that's at least my very rudimentary understanding, and it is probably very flawed.

i'm sorry that this might be a little off-topic, but your post made me think of that. the idea that "if you think you're in Hell, it's because you are" really tickles my brain. with that idea, Hell doesn't have to be fire and brimstone; it can be neon lights and office buildings.
 
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EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
3,737
And I think the Catholic Church is correct in asserting that sin can plunge you into hell, at least in one respect: I developed severe mental health issues after catching an infection from kissing a person on a one night stand. If you read health forums, you see that many people also developed physical and mental illnesses from contracting something from kissing. So the Catholic were right in believing that sexual promiscuity is a sin, which can lead to hell. It certainly did in my case.
First off, no. Most people do not develop mental illness from kissing others. That's, in of itself, usually not severe enough to lead to mental illness. I'm not saying that it can't happen but, in most cases, it rarely amounts to anything, especially when done between consenting parties. Also, kissing is a low-risk activity when it comes to STIs and most oral STIs go away on their own, so I don't get why you are so anti-kissing.

Secondly, sexual promiscuity usually isn't in of itself the main cause of most mental illnesses. In some cases, it might be a symptom of mental illness or trauma, especially sexually based trauma, but there are plenty of people who partake in casual sex who are perfectly fine mentally. Consent, safe-sex practices, and not shaming others probably does more to help people when it comes to casual sex in comparison to shaming people and making them feel guilty over something that isn't even that bad.

The Catholics are the last people I want to hear shit about in regards to anything about sex. With all the sexual abuse that goes on within the Catholic church, they have no right to say shit about the topic.
 
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waterworks

waterworks

in the luminous darkness
Jan 31, 2024
104
Anyone who has been hit by severe mental health issues, or severe physical pain, knows that hell is a reality here on Earth; to be plunged into hell is something that can happen to any conscious being.
I think people toss around the word, but don't mean hell in the conventional sense; it's just a metaphor, with exaggeration. That's why I started this by addressing the semantics of it.
And I think the Catholic Church is correct in asserting that sin can plunge you into hell, at least in one respect: I developed severe mental health issues after catching an infection from kissing a person on a one night stand. If you read health forums, you see that many people also developed physical and mental illnesses from contracting something from kissing. So the Catholic were right in believing that sexual promiscuity is a sin, which can lead to hell. It certainly did in my case.
Again, I don't believe you're using hell the way Catholic doctrine states it as. You're using the word metaphorically then trying to make it fact. It's true that certain infections from kissing can cause severe symptoms like that. But sexual promiscuity is hardly the problem, it's unsafe sexual practices. That argument is as absurd as saying, you can contract diseases from shaking people's hands, so don't shake anyone's hand. Just the same way as hygiene is important, so too safe sex or kissing, is important. If anything this modern apologetics attempt at explaining religious morals, falls into another hole of problems.
 
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astr4

astr4

memento mori
Mar 27, 2019
547
aw man this is half unreadable on light modes 😭 honestly thought the first paragraph was just uhh word art 💀
 
waterworks

waterworks

in the luminous darkness
Jan 31, 2024
104
i am (a bad) Catholic, so i'm a little biased, but i think the Gnostic view of Hell was kinda interesting. as it was explained to me, you shift planes throughout your life. so if you've been naughty for a while and your life starts to fall apart, it's because you are actually in Hell. the reverse is true, too, where your life goes really well because you've been a good person, meaning you have "shifted" to Heaven. that's at least my very rudimentary understanding, and it is probably very flawed.

i'm sorry that this might be a little off-topic, but your post made me think of that. the idea that "if you think you're in Hell, it's because you are" really tickles my brain. with that idea, Hell doesn't have to be fire and brimstone; it can be neon lights and office buildings.
That's interesting to think about, for sure, even though I personally see no use in calling it hell anymore at that point, since it would have little relation to the actual word other than having shock value.


aw man this is half unreadable on light modes 😭 honestly thought the first paragraph was just uhh word art 💀
I didn't even know there was a light mode. So the text isn't formatted right? I was going to send you images of the post but I'm assuming you're on some kind of data saving mode.
 
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G

G50

Member
Jun 28, 2023
73
First off, no. Most people do not develop mental illness from kissing others. That's, in of itself, usually not severe enough to lead to mental illness. I'm not saying that it can't happen but, in most cases, it rarely amounts to anything, especially when done between consenting parties. Also, kissing is a low-risk activity when it comes to STIs and most oral STIs go away on their own, so I don't get why you are so anti-kissing.

At present, science still does not know the cause of the majority of diseases. But there is a theory that nearly all illnesses, physical or mental, are caused by the microbes we catch in our lives. Not of course cold viruses, which are harmless and easily destroyed by the immune system; but rather various other common viruses which are able to persist in our body (Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, coxsackie, adenovirus, etc). These viruses are all caught by normal social contact. If someone has such a virus in their body, if you spend enough time with them in close social contact (such as living in the same home or office as them), the you will likely eventually catch it. But French kissing can speed up the process, since all of the mentioned viruses exist in the saliva, and so the saliva exchange of French kissing greatly increases the chances of transmission.

I am sure you know that mononucleosis (the short illness caused by Epstein-Barr virus) is also known as the "kissing disease", as lots of people catch EBV from kissing, and are then hit with mono. Fortunately mono clears up after a month or so in most people. But in others, they go on to get the disease of ME after mono. ME involves lots of fatigue, cognitive issues, and often mental health symptoms such as depression, anxiety, panic attacks, OCD, and others. In the long term, EBV has also been linked to triggering MS later in life.

And that's just one virus. There are dozens of others in common circulation that are caught by normal social contact or French kissing which are routinely passed from person to person. Crowded modern urban environments make things worse, as there are more people around that you can catch things from.

Most of the general public are completely unaware of the connection between common viruses and bacteria, and all the major diseases that afflict humanity. But I would guess the majority of people on this website who are suffering so miserably may have a hidden infection behind their woes.

My life was totally destroyed by a virus I caught through kissing during a one-night stand, as the virus I caught triggered some really nasty physical and mental symptoms. And I know lots of people who had the same experience. It does not mean everyone catches viruses from kissing; you can just catch them from housemates or work colleagues by normal social contact.



Secondly, sexual promiscuity usually isn't in of itself the main cause of most mental illnesses. In some cases, it might be a symptom of mental illness or trauma, especially sexually based trauma, but there are plenty of people who partake in casual sex who are perfectly fine mentally. Consent, safe-sex practices, and not shaming others probably does more to help people when it comes to casual sex in comparison to shaming people and making them feel guilty over something that isn't even that bad.

Sex itself is probably not as bad as French kissing, in terms of passing nasty infections that may later cause a serious disease. Most infections humans catch enter our bodies by the respiratory or gastrointestinal route, rather than through genital contact. Safe sex can prevent sexually transmitted infections, but not ones transmitted orally by saliva. And of course sex and French kissing usually go together.



The Catholics are the last people I want to hear shit about in regards to anything about sex. With all the sexual abuse that goes on within the Catholic church, they have no right to say shit about the topic.

Many major religions have discouraged promiscuity and sex before marriage. This includes Puritans, Protestants, Judaism and Islam. Since the sexual revolution of the 1960s, the West now mostly ignores this religious tradition, especially since the arrival of reliable contraception, which has now prevented most unwanted pregnancies. Casual sex outside of marriage was certainly a bad thing in the past, as it led to so many orphans without parents. But now that we have good contraception, as well as abortion, this is rarely an issue these days.

So people these days think recreational sex, when performed with contraception and condom protection, is safe. But a one-night stand they have today could be the cause of the physical and mental illnesses they develop a few years later.



Again, I don't believe you're using hell the way Catholic doctrine states it as. You're using the word metaphorically then trying to make it fact.

Well, this is something of a philosophical question. But I would say the hell of mental health that I have been suffering for the last two decades is very real. I've prayed for death nearly every day for these two decades, in order to escape this hell. I was a happy person, but I am now a conscious being plunged into continual torment. Only those will severe mental health or chronic physical pain might understand this.

Now, you may say that the hell depicted by Catholics (and other faiths) is different: that is an eternal hell from which there is no escape. And any hell humans experience here on Earth while alive is presumed ephemeral, because one day you will die, and then the suffering will be over.

But if you read the literature of the mystics, they believe that every moment in time also exists forever in eternity. Of course, it's hard to understand mystical ideas. But the notion that my mental torment is not just ephemeral, but will be there for all eternity, is rather scary!

Before suffering from mental health torment, if you had asked me does hell exist, I would have said no. But now I know that sentient conscious being like us humans can be plunged into a very real hell here on Earth. I expect many people on this site would agree. So hell exists for conscious beings; the universe in which we live in can plunge sentient beings into a chronic state of pure torture; but it is hopefully just an ephemeral hell, that death will allow us to escape from.
 
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EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
3,737
At present, science still does not know the cause of the majority of diseases. But there is a theory that nearly all illnesses, physical or mental, are caused by the microbes we catch in our lives.
A random theory that mental illnesses are caused by microbes we catch in our lives doesn't mean anything unless you actually have good evidence to support it. Along with that, microbes are everywhere. You could argue that plenty of nonsexual non-kissing activities would also thus have the risk of you contracting a disease.

Either way, evidence we have at the moment points to kissing being a low-risk activity when it comes to the spread of STIs and most oral STIs go away on their own. The whole "but science doesn't know" argument is one is that is nearly always used whenever people bring up the fact that something is unlikely. Science doesn't know everything, but it does work to provide a proper understanding of the world around us and so far, to my knowledge, the evidence we have gathered shows that kissing is a low-risk activity for STIs.
but rather various other common viruses which are able to persist in our body (Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, coxsackie, adenovirus, etc). These viruses are all caught by normal social contact.
Okay, then what difference does kissing make if you are still going to likely catch these viruses via normal social contact?
I am sure you know that mononucleosis (the short illness caused by Epstein-Barr virus) is also known as the "kissing disease", as lots of people catch EBV from kissing, and are then hit with mono. Fortunately mono clears up after a month or so in most people. But in others, they go on to get the disease of ME after mono. ME involves lots of fatigue, cognitive issues, and often mental health symptoms such as depression, anxiety, panic attacks, OCD, and others. In the long term, EBV has also been linked to triggering MS later in life.
If you acknowledge that mono usually clears up by itself and rarely leads to complications, then why are you so hung up on it? Also, the ME seems to mainly be connected to depression and most studies on it seem to be correlational. It could easily just be a spurious correlation. One study from 1999 even called into question these claims after not finding a significant difference in rates of depression amongst those who suffered from mono versus the general population. Along with that, other activities such as sharing drinks, food, or certain personal items (toothbrushes, lip gloss, etc) can also lead to one becoming infected with mono. Either way, the vast majority of the world's population (90%) has been infected by the virus before and most people are able to live on without any complications from it.
My life was totally destroyed by a virus I caught through kissing during a one-night stand, as the virus I caught triggered some really nasty physical and mental symptoms. And I know lots of people who had the same experience. It does not mean everyone catches viruses from kissing; you can just catch them from housemates or work colleagues by normal social cocontact.
How do you even deduce that it was the kissing that even caused this and not some other thing? You noticing a pattern doesn't mean anything when people notice patterns where they don't exist all the time.

Sex itself is probably not as bad as French kissing, in terms of passing nasty infections that may later cause a serious disease. Most infections humans catch enter our bodies by the respiratory or gastrointestinal route, rather than through genital contact. Safe sex can prevent sexually transmitted infections, but not ones transmitted orally by saliva. And of course sex and French kissing usually go together.
You seem to have a weird obsession with kissing dude. I've never come across someone who is anti-kissing.
Many major religions have discouraged promiscuity and sex before marriage. This includes Puritans, Protestants, Judaism and Islam. Since the sexual revolution of the 1960s, the West now mostly ignores this religious tradition, especially since the arrival of reliable contraception, which has now prevented most unwanted pregnancies. Casual sex outside of marriage was certainly a bad thing in the past, as it led to so many orphans without parents. But now that we have good contraception, as well as abortion, this is rarely an issue these days.
Puritans are just protestants and protestantism are just a dominions of Christianity, and Abrahamic religions are not the only religions out there and are very recent in comparisons to many other faiths. There have been countless spiritual beliefs that have existed amongst many different cultures throughout human history, and this includes a lot of sex-postive ones. How different religions and cultures view and practice sex is varies a lot, so I don't get your point here.


You seem to have a weird hatred of kissing and that's fine and all, but please stop trying to make it out to be these horrible act. You can just say you don't like it personally, you don't need to try and treat it as this horrific act ruining the lives of many.
 
KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,468
Yes, hell is just a place were unblieners go, NOT to burn forever but to burn UP and cease to exist
 
bitofftoomuch

bitofftoomuch

hold onto those who accept your messy self
Jul 1, 2024
148
Anyone who has been hit by severe mental health issues, or severe physical pain, knows that hell is a reality here on Earth; to be plunged into hell is something that can happen to any conscious being.

And I think the Catholic Church is correct in asserting that sin can plunge you into hell, at least in one respect: I developed severe mental health issues after catching an infection from kissing a person on a one night stand. If you read health forums, you see that many people also developed physical and mental illnesses from contracting something from kissing. So the Catholic were right in believing that sexual promiscuity is a sin, which can lead to hell. It certainly did in my case.
orrrrrrrrrr it's just simply the fact that you had a physically debilitating reminder that someone who showed you affection isn't around. that's how brains are wired.
hell is a fucking idiotic concept and so is heaven. the omnipotent omnibenevloent being's answer to everything is to put people through a shitty little test and then sort them into eternal torment or eternal happiness? incredible that he both would set people up for failure and evidently can't count past two.

if i believed a god like that existed i'd be asking why we haven't launched a nuclear missile at him.
 
G

G50

Member
Jun 28, 2023
73
A random theory that mental illnesses are caused by microbes we catch in our lives doesn't mean anything unless you actually have good evidence to support it.

No, this theory is not just about mental illnesses, but all illnesses. That includes heart diseases, diabetes, atherosclerosis, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, ALS, cancers, and everything else. If you take any everyday chronic disease you care to mention, you will find that research has discovered specific microbes living in the diseased organs. So there is an association between the disease and a specific microbial pathogen. These microbes are suspected of causing the disease in the organs they infect, but science has not yet proven this, because that is very difficult to prove. But nearly every chronic disease is linked to pathogens.



kissing being a low-risk activity when it comes to the spread of STIs

STIs are not my interest. Most are treatable.



Okay, then what difference does kissing make if you are still going to likely catch these viruses via normal social contact?

Isn't that obvious? During normal social contact, you might have to live years with a person before their pathogens transmit to you. But by saliva exchange during kissing, you can fastrack those years to just a single one night stand, or brief affair.



If you acknowledge that mono usually clears up by itself and rarely leads to complications

I would not say "rarely". Around 5 ot 10% with mono will develop ME, and ME is usually a lifelong condition that can keep you locked in your home for decades, or keep you bedbound in the more severe cases. It's one of the worst diseases you can get.

Plus the presence of Epstein-Barr virus in the body has been linked to autoimmune diseases, including multiple sclerosis. EBV actually lives long term in the B-cells of the immune system, which is why it can screw up the immune response.

And EBV is not the only virus which can cause ME, there are several other, include now SARS-CoV-2.



ME seems to mainly be connected to depression and most studies on it seem to be correlational.

ME is not depression, these are completely different diseases. ME is a neurological disease, like MS, Parkinson's, etc. As with most neurological diseases that adversely affect the brain, with ME you can get depression, anxiety and other mental illnesses appearing on top of the ME. But ME and its symptoms are distinct from those of depression.



How do you even deduce that it was the kissing that even caused this and not some other thing? You noticing a pattern doesn't mean anything when people notice patterns where they don't exist all the time.

Because I know the person I caught it from, and I was only with them for a few hours, during which time kissing took place. The first symptom I got the next day was a sore throat. Not hard to put two and two together. I then some months later spread the virus to other people I kissed.



You seem to have a weird hatred of kissing

Where did I say that? Kissing is wonderful, just as sex is. Nevertheless, educated people are aware that sex has health risks; abd being so educated does not mean that they hate sex. It just means they understand the pros and cons.
 
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