Discussion A Neutral Appraisal of SaSu & a Call for Suicide Compassion Clubs

[Rhizomorph1]

This might be longer and more in depth than many on this forum are willing to engage with; I get it, most of us just wanna die and we're not here to critically think, but I do hope it gets some attention because I think it is important to discuss and represent for the next-of-kin who are in line to become suicidal; to give back. We can't see meaningful social action without representation and this group tends to be especially underrepresented given that a lot of us end up dying, putting an untimely end to representation. Also the nihilistic cultural overtones make it feel a bit pointless, but none of us would have the privilege of this forum if not for the hard work of those running the site and those who came before.

My sincerest gratitude to the mods, site operators, and contributing members

If it were up to me I would encourage the development of authorized and anonymous suicide compassion clubs that have personnel trained in providing neutral person-centered companionship services that can aid to reduce psychological or physical distress from dying from a principally harm-reductive lens. The service would be provided for people who have already made up their minds about voluntary assisted death. For many suicidal people the warm presence of another person while approaching the gates of death will itself be sufficient to reconsider dying. I also can't see why an approach of the sort could not be performed in such a way that the risk of encouraging or increasing suicides is not entirely prevented. Such a service would not necessarily provide means or information regarding lethal methods. Nor would it use language that promotes suicide. Meanwhile, many people would likely be able to at least die a more peaceful death, in the companionship of another human.

To me, Sanctioned Suicide currently exists as a placeholder for this type of service. Although it does offer a well-needed service for those who wish to ctb, it simultaneously lacks the oversight to avoid directly or indirectly (e.g., through implicit cultural & sentimental reproduction) encouraging people to commit suicide. This is not too surprising considering the limited oversight resources available to any underground or covert service. The moderators - out of no fault of their own - do not have the capacity to regulate the slough of pro-suicide rhetoric by similarly depressed peers given the ongoing marginalization, ostracization, and censorship of the website, which prevents diplomatic discourse, resources, and person-centered training to effectively manage this type of service. Moreover, pro-life discourse has been framed within the site as a toxic ideology that strips people of their right to self-determination, which although holds plenty of philosophical merit, also limits the opportunity for diplomacy between the two perspectives and point-of-contact suicide intervention by facilitating out-group prejudice. Likewise, dominant media reporting on the site has fanned the flames of this prejudice by outright lying and framing those running the site as malefic and predatory. Yet, anyone who is remotely honest about others' intentions and gives even a moments glance over the forum's philosophy will see that it is well-intentioned, regardless of whether it achieves more good than harm (it probably does at least a bit of both).

The polarization of these two factions splits the decision straight down the middle and is likely to push people towards one side or the other, without the opportunity for informed, companioned deliberation with a neutral third-party. As with most social deviancy, the othering of a social group becomes the fuel for the group's identity by strengthening social solidarity through a microcosmic in-group identity in defense of these ostracized social norms; protecting their worldview. This may coerce individuals to join the bandwagon to avoid risk of further ostracization within perhaps the only group they have left (people with fewer social ties develop more anxious ties as they can't risk losing the ones they do have by posing high-risk perspectives; I may be taking a bit of a risk writing this but I assure you it's in good faith and impartial). The risk is eminent yet not obvious: romanticization of suicide among a group with a high need for companionship with highly restricted access to companionship outside these forums that consolidate a pro-suicide identity due to the lack of a supportive companions who will accept them without coercion or punishment; a very basic right that a human should have regardless of whether they are suicidal. Although it is not a direct encouragement of suicide, the cultural and identity-shaping aspects of a forum like this can and ultimately will push people who may alternatively reconsider suicide if not for the creation of such an identity.

Suicide compassion clubs would solve these issues by (a) reducing the number of people who die from encouragement or simply the unconscious sentimental rhetoric of pro-suicide cultures on forums or elsewhere by providing neutral, person-centered, trained personnel with adequate oversight; (b) facilitating a last-resort point-of-contact opportunity for those who may reconsider suicide to access treatment, rehabilitation, or emergency services where they otherwise wouldn't have this option dying alone; and (c) would allow people who would absolutely without a doubt commit suicide regardless of all else, to have companionship and assistance with pain-reduction (a form of harm-reduction) in their final moments.

Harm Reduction is already a model that has been applied primarily substance use, but also self-harm behaviours, risky sex, and many other behaviours society has deemed "problematic" or morally forbidden in the past. Yet, we know it happens, as with suicide, and thus the core to the harm reduction philosophy it being able to meet people where they are at by encouraging healthy behaviour but also not judging or coercing people out of self-sabotaging behaviour; simply seeking to reduce the harms of that behaviour if the person is inevitably going to do it. The harm reduction model may also be more palpable than nihilism or antinatalism to the pro-lifers as well (especially considering its already been adopted elsewhere), creating somewhat more of a "middle grounds" that is a bit more persuasive. I think the old aphorism "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" remains true; diplomacy goes a long way.

In the meantime I absolutely support the mission of SaSu as I don't see compassion clubs arising anytime soon due to the current prohibitions. This is why it is entirely the public's fault (not SaSu's) for ostracizing the people on this forum. However, I do hope one day we can lay rest to both the pro-suicide and pro-life rhetoric and simply witness a neutral pro-choice rhetoric that creates oversight, regulations, and systems for people to make an informed choice on either side of the coin.

I also encourage this forum attempts to adopt a more neutral harm-reduction philosophy, perhaps embedded in some of the stickied threads in the suicide discussion. @mods feel free to sticky this post if it appears worthy/acceptable of being stickied. I think it would demonstrate a commitment to open-mindedness; by sharing a perspective that is very much still in line with most of this sites values but seeks to add to the ongoing efforts by improving the existing values and philosophy.

Lastly, I'd like to warn people using this forum to try to make individual, informed decisions. Be a bit skeptical of both the pro-life and pro-suicide perspectives as they may both pidgeon hole the conversation down a very narrow street of possibility. These are life-and-death considerations that carry the risks of overturning personal freedom & agency on either side of the fence. Only we know what's best for ourselves and it's very easy to get caught up in the identification with cultural ideas especially when we are depressed or otherwise suffering. I'm on here cause I want to die, but I'm trying to remain level-headed while I plan my suicide. I sometimes feel alone on this mission to stay sane while I lose my sanity in other ways...

I hope everyone who joins this forum has the chance to encounter these ideas as I do believe it encourages individual autonomy; empowering members to think for themselves.

But please, share your thoughts; I welcome transparency in the spirit of open discourse and collaboration :)

 

[Forever Sleep]

Interesting. I guess I'm curious as to just how impressionable you think people are on here. I'm not denying the criticism often levelled at this place that it is an 'echo-chamber'. This section in particular is primarily pessimistic. I would also agree that there is little tolerance for pro-life sentiments here. Especially by some prominant members.

I think people come here initially for a variety of reasons. Most are likely looking for methods. Many of us stay because of the sense of community and support here.

What I would argue is- most people know themselves. They know how they feel before they come here. They know what kind of support they gravitate to. I've known members join for a while and then leave- because it made them realise they wanted to try recovery. They saw that they didn't want to be in this pit of despair. Similarly, other people move over to the 'Recovery Section'- have you checked that out much? How much does that align with your 'Suicide Compassion Club' idea? (I think it's a good idea by the way.)

I'd strongly argue that the majority of people are self aware enough to recognise what influence outside factors have on them. I'd say most people here are in fact masters of introspection. That's our problem really- we're accutely aware of how outside influences have affected us. I think it continues here though- people gravitate to what they resonate with. I would bet you many of us here would feel triggered if we started interacting with the 'Recovery Section' more because- we're not looking for that kind of talk. We've likely made conscious decisions to reject it in fact. And vice versa- people trying to recover may well feel triggered by posts here that are entirely negative.

I respect what you are proposing and I think it would be enormously helpful. I think an open environment where people can be entirely honest and get support is essential. That's what should be happening in the mainstream! It's uttery ridiculous the way it is. People being too frightened of the heavy handed treatment they would get if they were honest. It's like going to the doctors with suspected heart problems and saying you just think you've got acid reflux.

Still- I'd argue- even with your suggestion in place- some people would still prefer somewhere like this. Plenty of people (me included) don't like being forced to think a certain way. I'm old and stubborn. I know how I think. I've tried plenty of things in life. I know what does and doesn't work for me. Personally, I don't respond too well to positive suggestions. I have a feeling anything pro-life would go in that direction. A- 'let us help you fix your life' approach. Some people simply don't want that. It's still a good idea though because some people desperately do.

What I'd argue is- most people know from the start what they are open to. I find it highly unlikely someone with even shreds of hope would join here and lose all hope because of how negative the place is. I think they'd realise they still had that hope to change. Most people here are also very perceptive at detecting hope in others. I'd bet you anyone indicating they still have hope will be encouraged to pursue life rather than death by the majority of members. It's only one or two here that are promortalist. Most of us are pro-choice- we try to respond according to what we think the person posting has chosen for themselves- whether that be the possibility of recovering or not. That's my take anyway and I agree- our Mods are amazing.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Interesting. I guess I'm curious as to just how impressionable you think people are on here. I'm not denying the criticism often levelled at this place that it is an 'echo-chamber'. This section in particular is primarily pessimistic. I would also agree that there is little tolerance for pro-life sentiments here. Especially by some prominant members.

I think people come here initially for a variety of reasons. Most are likely looking for methods. Many of us stay because of the sense of community and support here.

What I would argue is- most people know themselves. They know how they feel before they come here. They know what kind of support they gravitate to. I've known members join for a while and then leave- because it made them realise they wanted to try recovery. They saw that they didn't want to be in this pit of despair. Similarly, other people move over to the 'Recovery Section'- have you checked that out much? How much does that align with your 'Suicide Compassion Club' idea? (I think it's a good idea by the way.)

I'd strongly argue that the majority of people are self aware enough to recognise what influence outside factors have on them. I'd say most people here are in fact masters of introspection. That's our problem really- we're accutely aware of how outside influences have affected us. I think it continues here though- people gravitate to what they resonate with. I would bet you many of us here would feel triggered if we started interacting with the 'Recovery Section' more because- we're not looking for that kind of talk. We've likely made conscious decisions to reject it in fact. And vice versa- people trying to recover may well feel triggered by posts here that are entirely negative.

I respect what you are proposing and I think it would be enormously helpful. I think an open environment where people can be entirely honest and get support is essential. That's what should be happening in the mainstream! It's uttery ridiculous the way it is. People being too frightened of the heavy handed treatment they would get if they were honest. It's like going to the doctors with suspected heart problems and saying you just think you've got acid reflux.

Still- I'd argue- even with your suggestion in place- some people would still prefer somewhere like this. Plenty of people (me included) don't like being forced to think a certain way. I'm old and stubborn. I know how I think. I've tried plenty of things in life. I know what does and doesn't work for me. Personally, I don't respond too well to positive suggestions. I have a feeling anything pro-life would go in that direction. A- 'let us help you fix your life' approach. Some people simply don't want that. It's still a good idea though because some people desperately do.

What I'd argue is- most people know from the start what they are open to. I find it highly unlikely someone with even shreds of hope would join here and lose all hope because of how negative the place is. I think they'd realise they still had that hope to change. Most people here are also very perceptive at detecting hope in others. I'd bet you anyone indicating they still have hope will be encouraged to pursue life rather than death by the majority of members. It's only one or two here that are promortalist. Most of us are pro-choice- we try to respond according to what we think the person posting has chosen for themselves- whether that be the possibility of recovering or not. That's my take anyway and I agree- our Mods are amazing.

You raise some very good points which I will aim to respond to tomorrow. My ideas, as with many are prone to being premature; I think we're building this ship as we sail it. It's hard to build when we're all here to jump overboard, too. anyways, night night for now

 

[I Can't Say]

feel free to sticky this post if it appears worthy/acceptable of being stickied

As usual, your arrogance is simply stunning. You've unilaterally decided what the direction of the site should be, and you're willing to allow it to be enshrined in a sticky. Unbelievable.

 

[FuneralCry]

If you or anybody else has a problem with people on here venting about hating life then you just don't have to read those posts. The whole point of the suicide discussion in the first place is to allow people a place to vent and discuss suicide openly without all the pro-lifers, for the people who want "help"/advice to continue living or are unsure about whether they want to ctb in the first place then there's a recovery section for those people.

Just because you see death as a terrible thing then that doesn't mean that applies to everyone else, honestly it sounds like you are trying to push your views onto everyone else.
Sorry but those who hate life deserve a place to vent about it openly, many of us just don't want anything to do with pro-lifers, I cannot stand those people and they repulse me.

Just in general if people take issue with the suicide discussion on here then maybe it's just not for them and that's fine, other people's decisions aren't any of their business anyway. The suicide discussion is meant for people who are tired of pro-lifers who are everywhere else in this anti-choice society.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

As usual, your arrogance is simply stunning. You've unilaterally decided what the direction of the site should be, and you're willing to allow it to be enshrined in a sticky. Unbelievable.

I was pretty clear that it is well within the reason of/contingent on the mods discretion. I'm not sure how I'm unilaterally making the decision given that I've maintained their authority? I accept in good faith if they do not deem it worthy of being stickied (which they have not and I'm okay with)

This criticism is starkly confusing...

If you or anybody else has a problem with people on here venting about hating life then you just don't have to read those posts. The whole point of the suicide discussion in the first place is to allow people a place to vent and discuss suicide openly without all the pro-lifers, for the people who want "help"/advice to continue living or are unsure about whether they want to ctb in the first place then there's a recovery section for those people.

Just because you see death as a terrible thing then that doesn't mean that applies to everyone else, honestly it sounds like you are trying to push your views onto everyone else.
Sorry but those who hate life deserve a place to vent about it openly, many of us just don't want anything to do with pro-lifers, I cannot stand those people and they repulse me.

Just in general if people take issue with the suicide discussion on here then maybe it's just not for them and that's fine, other people's decisions aren't any of their business anyway. The suicide discussion is meant for people who are tired of pro-lifers who are everywhere else in this anti-choice society.

I'm not sure this really addresses the nuanced cultural concerns I raised directly or even indirectly. I mean this respectfully, but I'm concerned about engaging in this sort of false dichotomy; a type of straw man argument

I don't think it is being done intentionally, and in the spirit of having a tolerance for uncertainty, maybe I'm missing something, but I do think it warrants some reflexive deliberation. I hope you'll at least consider it.

I'm trying to be open minded. There's a sensitive and collaborative approach to addressing these topics if you feel like I've failed that. I'm completely on board with the mission of SaSu despite the insinuations that I'm not. I think I was fairly clear about that in my OP so I'm a bit confused by the nature of the responses that make me out to be opposed to SaSu or pro-choice rhetoric, etc (the falsification of dichotomous "positions"). I'm only trying to build on what exists and sometimes that warrants being critical about the systems in place.

Likewise, I've been fairly impartial in that I identified the issues exist precisely because of anti-suicide rhetoric and the general public's prejudice towards this site...

If you see my Opioid Megathread & Method post you will see that I am contributing to this forum, information accessibility, the right to self determination, person-centered communication, psychosocial & spiritual support in dying, etc. all these values align with this forum I believe?

We improve other systems all the time with open minded, reflexive, critical discourse. But if my thoughts are not welcome here I am happy to resign them. Just say the word.

I have no problem with people venting on here nor do I see death as a terrible thing (I want to die after all) and I'm saddened that my words are being falsely twisted as such because I've never said anything of the sort. I hope we can engage realistically with the denotative content of what I said in the OP rather than whatever perceived connotations which simply do not exist. I'm patient in resolving this misunderstanding, nor do I judge <3 (I trust were all trying our best to contribute positively), but I do think there is a *significant* misunderstanding. It takes a lot of patience though when admittedly I feel my OP was a bit glanced over...

Interesting. I guess I'm curious as to just how impressionable you think people are on here. I'm not denying the criticism often levelled at this place that it is an 'echo-chamber'. This section in particular is primarily pessimistic. I would also agree that there is little tolerance for pro-life sentiments here. Especially by some prominant members.

I think people come here initially for a variety of reasons. Most are likely looking for methods. Many of us stay because of the sense of community and support here.

What I would argue is- most people know themselves. They know how they feel before they come here. They know what kind of support they gravitate to. I've known members join for a while and then leave- because it made them realise they wanted to try recovery. They saw that they didn't want to be in this pit of despair. Similarly, other people move over to the 'Recovery Section'- have you checked that out much? How much does that align with your 'Suicide Compassion Club' idea? (I think it's a good idea by the way.)

I'd strongly argue that the majority of people are self aware enough to recognise what influence outside factors have on them. I'd say most people here are in fact masters of introspection. That's our problem really- we're accutely aware of how outside influences have affected us. I think it continues here though- people gravitate to what they resonate with. I would bet you many of us here would feel triggered if we started interacting with the 'Recovery Section' more because- we're not looking for that kind of talk. We've likely made conscious decisions to reject it in fact. And vice versa- people trying to recover may well feel triggered by posts here that are entirely negative.

I respect what you are proposing and I think it would be enormously helpful. I think an open environment where people can be entirely honest and get support is essential. That's what should be happening in the mainstream! It's uttery ridiculous the way it is. People being too frightened of the heavy handed treatment they would get if they were honest. It's like going to the doctors with suspected heart problems and saying you just think you've got acid reflux.

Still- I'd argue- even with your suggestion in place- some people would still prefer somewhere like this. Plenty of people (me included) don't like being forced to think a certain way. I'm old and stubborn. I know how I think. I've tried plenty of things in life. I know what does and doesn't work for me. Personally, I don't respond too well to positive suggestions. I have a feeling anything pro-life would go in that direction. A- 'let us help you fix your life' approach. Some people simply don't want that. It's still a good idea though because some people desperately do.

What I'd argue is- most people know from the start what they are open to. I find it highly unlikely someone with even shreds of hope would join here and lose all hope because of how negative the place is. I think they'd realise they still had that hope to change. Most people here are also very perceptive at detecting hope in others. I'd bet you anyone indicating they still have hope will be encouraged to pursue life rather than death by the majority of members. It's only one or two here that are promortalist. Most of us are pro-choice- we try to respond according to what we think the person posting has chosen for themselves- whether that be the possibility of recovering or not. That's my take anyway and I agree- our Mods are amazing.

Thank you for your open minded comment that assumes my good faith, even if we have different views.

I think you are right that a lot of people probably have made up their minds and know where they're at. However sociology and social psychology does tell us that we are not self aware in a lot of ways (myself included). At the very least, we overlook macrosocial and cultural influences in favour of individualistic judgments. We form judgments with implicit, aesthetic-focused, emotional reasoning that is preferred over the slower cognitive, evidence-based and data-driven reasoning (look up the "dual process model of cognitive appraisal for some evidence-based support for this fact). This issue is not one that we can be simply overcome though conscious intent (as it occurs onconsciouslu) but only one that highlights a general benefit of being aware of unconscious bias; of talking about it. That's to say that self-awareness probably exists more on a spectrum and is certainly subject to the coercive influence of social normativity.

I come from a research background so I can't help but look at things from a lens of population-level statistical variance. I do think many won't be influenced by the sort of cultural echo chamber you mention, but it goes without saying there will be variance. The site is grassroots bottom-up meaning there is no standardization of culture; individials will contribute a greater sum of variance to the cultural reproduction versus a model with oversight.

The fact is that without objective research/data (which we won't have anytime soon for practical reasons) that accounts for statistical variance, we cannot know the proportion of cases, nor the effect size (the extent of influence) these cases experience socially coercive influence from this culture. Both my and the opposing perspectives are inferring from subjective anecdotal experience, which is itself incredibly fallible. But there is reason to believe - knowing what sociology and social psychology has demonstrated about cultural influence - that at least *some proportion* of people will likely experience this influence. It seems to me more likely a question of the extent and the size of the proportion that experiences this influence (i.e., is there a statistically significant difference in groups, and what is the statistical effect size of it is present?). We cannot know, but I'd be very surprised if at least some effect did not exist especially given the potential cultural "noise" that is added to the variance given the bottom-up nature.

I think it's worth considering the risk. Whether the risk outweighs the benefit is a whole other question, but in the spirit of transparency & freedom of information, I think it is a moot point. The reality of culture will need to be integrated into our philosophies either way.

I wish we could just perform objective research on this but the god damn pro lifers would never allow it ;(

Let me know your thoughts. It's good discussion :)

 

[SpiritualDeath]

I don't see how this forum has any sense of pro-suicide atmosphere tbh. No one here actually encourages suicide and if someone has the intention to do so this usually quickly gets addressed by the mods.

I know that there are a few promortalists on this site. I am one actually. This means I do think that the sooner we all just cease to exist the better. However, as far as I can see no one here actually chases after people and encourages them to die. No one tells people here who are apparently still hesitant or seeking recovery that they should just go to die. Indeed we make posts to vent and share our outlook on life, that may sound too depressed or unacceptable especially to those who don't share this view, but that's only because this is one of the very few places that we can speak up honestly about this without being shitted on. I doubt that anyone here actually has the intention to become the leader of a death cult or something. I understand how such posts may be considered pro-suicide or with the potential of influencing those already depressed more in this direction, but I believe that people are not that easily influenced. I believe that people are fully capable of making independent judgement and know what information is for them and what's not. At the end of the day they'll just naturally stay away from the information that is not for them, as long as nothing is forced on them, that is - if they don't share our views they're not going to suddenly feel encouraged to die from just reading a few posts here.

I appreciate your idea of a compassion club tho. It's worth considering as a function for this forum to have.

 

[Blurry_Buildings]

My eyes are in so much physical pain after reading that (its not what you wrote its just a lot of words for my eyeballs lol)
I appreciate the effort in your analysis but I feel a bit confused. This "Suicide Compassion Club" sounds like it involves sending trained mental health experts to watch and offer emotional support while a suicidal person takes their own life right in front of them. I guess, effectiveness notwithstanding, I agree with you that no nation in the world would ever implement that specific version of harm reduction.

Every harm reduction program I have ever read about (with the excpetion of end of life care for terminally ill patients) focuses on reducing harm to the individual in an effort to reduce the consequences on their life for the future. Drug addiction programs encourage people to slowly stop doing drugs, which (when being slowly weened off) can stil be a very physically uncomfortable process in the short term. It's not that they are trying to be neutral or limit physical and emotional pain, it's that the program has an objective and that they see slowly weening someone off as much more effective approach in meeting that goal.

As for suicides the goal of society almost always will be creating a morally accpetable means of prevention. Society isn't really interested in only trying to convince you not to take your life when you are standing on a ledge, they are interested in saving your life through any means neccessary (whether it be talking you down or grabbing and restraining you). Letting some people die in the hopes that it will reduce the overall body count is traveling into the ulitarianist grey zone imo lol. I can't see how this would ever be accpetable to society or how society's objective here would ever change, as long as a society does exist (unless of course that society has a few genocidal maniacs in charge).

Imo, a better avenue of dialog would be delving into the root causes of suicidal ideation in the first place (plenty of artificial human-made stressors out there). I imagine true mitigation can only be achieved through a trememdous overhaul of society. Of course there is always something to be said (and that will be said here) about someone's right to go.

Just my opinion though. I had fun thinking about it so thank you :)

 

[I Can't Say]

I accept in good faith if they do not deem it worthy of being stickied (which they have not and I'm okay with)

You're "okay with" that? How magnanimous of you! These things require discussion and agreement among the people who are responsible with running the site. Nobody is going to take the opinion of a new user and slap it up top as official policy, exactly as written. The fact that you seem to be surprised that they didn't speaks volumes about your sheer arrogance.

I feel bad for not making any substantive comments on your post, but your whole attitude says that you consider yourself beyond criticism.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

You're "okay with" that? How magnanimous of you! These things require discussion and agreement among the people who are responsible with running the site. Nobody is going to take the opinion of a new user and slap it up top as official policy, exactly as written. The fact that you seem to be surprised that they didn't speaks volumes about your sheer arrogance.

I feel bad for not making any substantive comments on your post, but your whole attitude says that you consider yourself beyond criticism.

Who said I'm surprised? You're making a lot of assumptions...

Anyways I can't in good faith engage with you further. I think the contrast between our "attitudes" is pretty self evident. I wish you well nonetheless