Discussion A successful first suicide can lead to a much better life

[Tom9999]

The way we are when we first leave home is a result of how we've been treated by the circumstances and people in our upbringing. We had no choice in how we turned out because as children we must shape ourselves to match our environment or we will suffer greatly, or even die.

Sometimes the person we became because of our upbringing doesn't work for us. Sometimes we suffer so much from this that we want to physically die.

However, another way to die at this point is to recover from our childhood by examining the effects it had on how we perceive ourselves and the world, finding what doesn't work, and replacing it with what does. In this way we consciously sculpt ourselves into someone better suited to the "real" world outside our upbringing.

Undergoing recovery work results in this "second self", one that we consciously create with the intent of enjoying life. This is in contrast to our "first self", one that we unconsciously created as a forced response to our upbringing.

Sometimes when I read posts from young people still at home or in college, and they speak of killing themselves, I wonder "They could also choose to kill themselves through recovery. They could then try the world using the second self they created as a result of the recovery process. This second self would have a much, much better chance of leading them to an enjoyable, fulfilled, and meaningful life. And if it didn't, they could then kill this second self physically, knowing they had given the world a second chance by doing the work necessary to remove the distortions of childhood and so meet the world in a stronger and more capable way."

Has this distinction - between the first self that is an unconscious response to childhood, and the second self that is a conscious response to rebuilding ones self to better interact with the world around us - ever occurred to you?

And do you see how instead of killing this first self physically, you can instead do it mentally through recovery, and therefore give yourself a true "second chance" at life by living it with your newly rebuilt second self, one that can greatly increase the chances of you leading a full and meaningful life?

 

[AnnonyBox]

Clickbait

 

[Tom9999]

Clickbait

There is nothing deceptive, sensational, or misleading about this. It is a very meaningful and powerful point of view on the increased efficacy of a post-recovery self, a deliberately created self that has a much better chance of leading one to a fulfilled and meaningful life, and therefore worth the hard work of undergoing recovery and gaining a second chance at life.

Many people enter recovery wanting to die, and exit it wanting to live, because the person that exits can be almost an entirely different person to the one that entered.

 

[Ness]

You don't have to be a specific age or older to have given the world a second or even third, fourth and so on chance. Maybe the "young people" already have tried several times, maybe they haven't. Your points are plenty valid, just consider keeping in mind that you can't know for sure unless they tell you.

 

[Pistolero114]

The way we are when we first leave home is a result of how we've been treated by the circumstances and people in our upbringing. We had no choice in how we turned out because as children we must shape ourselves to match our environment or we will suffer greatly, or even die.

Sometimes the person we became because of our upbringing doesn't work for us. Sometimes we suffer so much from this that we want to physically die.

However, another way to die at this point is to recover from our childhood by examining the effects it had on how we perceive ourselves and the world, finding what doesn't work, and replacing it with what does. In this way we consciously sculpt ourselves into someone better suited to the "real" world outside our upbringing.

Undergoing recovery work results in this "second self", one that we consciously create with the intent of enjoying life. This is in contrast to our "first self", one that we unconsciously created as a forced response to our upbringing.

Sometimes when I read posts from young people still at home or in college, and they speak of killing themselves, I wonder "They could also choose to kill themselves through recovery. They could then try the world using the second self they created as a result of the recovery process. This second self would have a much, much better chance of leading them to an enjoyable, fulfilled, and meaningful life. And if it didn't, they could then kill this second self physically, knowing they had given the world a second chance by doing the work necessary to remove the distortions of childhood and so meet the world in a stronger and more capable way."

Has this distinction - between the first self that is an unconscious response to childhood, and the second self that is a conscious response to rebuilding ones self to better interact with the world around us - ever occurred to you?

And do you see how instead of killing this first self physically, you can instead do it mentally through recovery, and therefore give yourself a true "second chance" at life by living it with your newly rebuilt second self, one that can greatly increase the chances of you leading a full and meaningful life?

So you work hard to "kill" the old self and like the Phoenix a new life rises from the ashes of the old one? Philosophically it makes sense. However; and in my opinion only; it does not change the physical reality of the real world. You have changed; you have greater insight than before. But the people whom you will deal with are still thinking and behaving in the old same patterns they always did. You just see it for what it is. They will whitewash their actions towards you and others who have the misfortune to stray within their "sights". They will use their philosophy to attempt to turn you into the good little drone they want you to be.

What is required for REAL change is revolution. And revolution only works with everyone onboard. I have tried that. No one other than a brave few would join. And the greatest strength has always been in numbers. You get those numbers built up; I'm on board. Otherwise this is all just academic.

Thanks for following me this far. Good Luck whatever your choice.

 

[Tom9999]

You don't have to be a specific age or older to have given the world a second or even third, fourth and so on chance. Maybe the "young people" already have tried several times, maybe they haven't. Your points are plenty valid, just consider keeping in mind that you can't know for sure unless they tell you.

It's not about how many chances you give the world.

It's about how different you are between the chances, and the most severe change occurs during recovery, where the entire self can be completely overhauled, so much so that it can produce an almost entirely different person.

 

[Ness]

It's not about how many chances you give the world.

It's about how different you are between the chances, and the most severe change occurs during recovery, where the entire self can be completely overhauled, so much so that it can produce an almost entirely different person.

Well, I'd assume that giving the world that many chances would mean a person is determined to actually give it a shot and that if the world shoots them down that many times then they're going to exhaust themselves trying. There's only so much a person can take (I know some people can take it but some of us can't so my point is still valid).

Sometimes enough is enough and change, becoming different, doesn't have to be a good thing.

 

[Tom9999]

However; and in my opinion only; it does not change the physical reality of the real world. You have changed; you have greater insight than before. But the people whom you will deal with are still thinking and behaving in the old same patterns they always did.

Yes. And after recovery you see all this, which is why recovery often leads to an upheaval of life - different career, different friends, different ways of relating - and on and on.

This is one reason people can avoid recovery. They sense it will result in the destruction of a lot of their dysfunctional structure, leading to major life changes, and that can be daunting to contemplate.

You get those numbers built up; I'm on board. Otherwise this is all just academic

Where I live recovery, therapy, and so on, are embraced to the extent its almost a commonplace thing. It's far beyond mere philosophy or academinia - it's a real, large, and practical force in society.

 

[Pistolero114]

It's not about how many chances you give the world.

It's about how different you are between the chances, and the most severe change occurs during recovery, where the entire self can be completely overhauled, so much so that it can produce an almost entirely different person.

Excellent point. It borders on the Hindu version of reincarnation. Without having physical death.

Yes. And after recovery you see all this, which is why recovery often leads to an upheaval of life - different career, different friends, different ways of relating - and on and on.

This is one reason people can avoid recovery. They sense it will result in the destruction of a lot of their dysfunctional structure, leading to major life changes, and that can be daunting to contemplate.



Where I live recovery, therapy, and so on, are embraced to the extent its almost a commonplace thing. It's far beyond mere philosophy or academinia - it's a real, large, and practical force in society.

I'd like to live there.

 

[Tom9999]

Well, I'd assume that giving the world that many chances would mean a person is determined to actually give it a shot and that if the world shoots them down that many times then they're going to exhaust themselves trying. There's only so much a person can take.

I agree. We all have our limit. But I feel it is worth giving life after recovery at least a chance or two.

But to do so, one has to undergo recovery and the associated thorough examination and overhaul of ones own self, to produce a new, better functioning "second self.

Then give life a try as that new person, and see what happens...

Excellent point. It borders on the Hindu version of reincarnation. Without having physical death.

Yes! But you fully remember who you were before, which adds a remarkable dimension and instills empathy and understanding of others who are suffering as you used to.

I'd like to live there.

Coastal USA.

 

[Ness]

I agree. We all have our limit. But I feel it is worth giving life after recovery at least a chance or two.

But to do so, one has to undergo recovery and the associated thorough examination and overhaul of ones own self, to produce a new, better functioning "second self.

Then give life a try as that new person, and see what happens...

Sounds extremely tiring, kudos to anyone who manages it but it won't be me.

 

[Tom9999]

Sounds extremely tiring, kudos to anyone who manages it but it won't be me.

Yes. It presents many challenges.

"Healing the Child Within" by Charles Whitfield is a short book that gives a great description of the process

 

[Temporarilyabsurd]

I'm reminded of the idea of the Schizoid break , the idea that theoretically , we subconsciously create an adaptive second self to
deal with the bull shit in our family. ( my shambolic misinterpreted memory of the idea . )

I like where you're coming from @Tom9999 .

I'm not trying to knock your idea ... just seeing some connection between a voluntary and involuntary construction of "personality " ,

 

[Tom9999]

I'm reminded of the idea of the Schizoid break , the idea that theoretically , we subconsciously create an adaptive second self to
deal with the bull shit in our family. ( my shambolic misinterpreted memory of the idea . )

I like where you're coming from @Tom9999 .

I'm not trying to knock your idea ... just seeing some connection between a voluntary and involuntary construction of "personality " ,

I totally see where you're coming from. This adaptive childhood self unfortunately becomes maladaptive out in the "real" world because the coping mechanisms that formerly protected now unfortunately only limit and stunt growth.

Example: isolating myself at home protected me from my abusive environment, but out in the real world (where as an adult I now have control over my surroundings) it only serves to stunt my social and career growth, and deprive me of enriching relationships, so I had to unlearn it and replace it with good boundary skills, and these skills are a component of my self-created second self.

 

[Peaceful_Sam]

I just love your posts Tom! I understood the important message in your post and I think a lot of people need to read something like this.
I personally want to die because I had enough. I just can't live in this world anymore. A day is like a year. Everyday I think about suicide more than 1000 times.
I'm writing this and feeling like a huge rock is compressing my chest. I'm in a point where even if you put 1 billion dollars in front of me I will still want to kill myself.

 

[bigj75]

so this sounds like just trying to fix what's fucked up about yourself from childhood and if that doesn't work ctb.

 

[Tom9999]

I just love your posts Tom! I understood the important message in your post and I think a lot of people need to read something like this.
I personally want to die because I had enough. I just can't live in this world anymore. A day is like a year. Everyday I think about suicide more than 1000 times.
I'm writing this and feeling like a huge rock is compressing my chest. I'm in a point where even if you put 1 billion dollars in front of me I will still want to kill myself.

I'm glad you enjoy my posts :-)

I do want people, particularly those who haven't gone through recovery, to know it is indeed possible to become a different person and get a 2nd shot at life, but this time armed with better perception and decision making skills, and free of dysfunctional relics of childhood.

But that only (greatly) raises the chances one will now go on to lead a more enjoyable and fulfilled life - it doesn't guarantee it, as I can sadly testify.

so this sounds like just trying to fix what's fucked up about yourself from childhood and if that doesn't work ctb.

Yes. Because it may turn out that it DOES work, and as this new person, you go on to lead an enjoyable and meaningful life.

Or perhaps you don't.

But it sure can raise the odds so much, that I feel it is worth the struggle and work, because then you know you truly did all you could.

Also I wanted to explain just how huge of an improvement can result from addressing childhood issues (so much so that it can be like killing the self composed of those issues), and how vastly it increases your chances of living the good life.

 

[Wayfaerer]

My problems no longer stem from my past and are now much more... "Tangible." Recovery is virtually impossible for me at this point.

 

[Dawn0071111]

This post is the EXACT REASON why I am going to CTB! I have made the decision that I would rather die- be annialated. Than undergo the long, excruciating, living-death of my maladaptive self. Thats what my post "I am unwilling to change" is all.about. I personally don't think I have enough of a pshyche or self to stand the process anyway. There is nothing underneath the maladaptive self for me.... But yeah, I think that process you described is for the brave soul that still badly wants something out of this life and is willing to undergo the living death. I tried, but the pain, shame, humiliation was too much for me and there is nothing this world has to offer me that would make me be willing, EXCEPT for a gurantee of true love. Thing is, once I go to the process and change most likely my concept of True Love Will to so everything will just collapse.... I salute in applaud anyone who is willing to go through this process there have been many who have done it before and they'll be many in the future but I deliberately for feet that option for myself and I choose death. Both ways are going to be hard but I choose to end my life totally because even though my physical death may include some pain and I must overcome my survival instincts I know that once I take my last breaths I won't have to worry about anything anymore..... for me personally I just completely lost any reason to stay alive and I certainly don't have any reason to commit spiritual suicide in order to awaken a new self........ I am so glad that suicide is just as much of an option as changing and growing is...

 

[oopswronglife]

Eastern philosophy has a similar sort of idea. Death of the self to be enlightened. Your ego and "self" dies and you are replaced with simply being.

 

[Tom9999]

This post is the EXACT REASON why I am going to CTB! I have made the decision that I would rather die- be annialated. Than undergo the long, excruciating, living-death of my maladaptive self. Thats what my post "I am unwilling to change" is all.about. I personally don't think I have enough of a pshyche or self to stand the process anyway. There is nothing underneath the maladaptive self for me.... But yeah, I think that process you described is for the brave soul that still badly wants something out of this life and is willing to undergo the living death. I tried, but the pain, shame, humiliation was too much for me and there is nothing this world has to offer me that would make me be willing, EXCEPT for a gurantee of true love. Thing is, once I go to the process and change most likely my concept of True Love Will to so everything will just collapse.... I salute in applaud anyone who is willing to go through this process there have been many who have done it before and they'll be many in the future but I deliberately for feet that option for myself and I choose death. Both ways are going to be hard but I choose to end my life totally because even though my physical death may include some pain and I must overcome my survival instincts I know that once I take my last breaths I won't have to worry about anything anymore..... for me personally I just completely lost any reason to stay alive and I certainly don't have any reason to commit spiritual suicide in order to awaken a new self........ I am so glad that suicide is just as much of an option as changing and growing is...

I understand the fear of enduring more pain in the form of the death of ones maladaptive self.

Having experienced recovery, I discovered that, because it happens little by little, the suffering is really spread out. And because at the same time you are creating a new self, that growth helps you to cope better with the suffering.

Also, if you choose a supportive therapist to help you through your journey, and perhaps at some point go to group therapy where you can share with others in a similar situation, this can bend the whole experience toward being more of a vibrant and enriching one, than just a painful one.

I was afraid of what would remain after removing my old behaviors, as you put it, revealing what's "underneath the maladaptive self", but what happened was I discovered a different core on which to build myself.

The core of my maladaptive self was my childhood suffering. The core of my new self was something entirely different. I don't know what to call it, but the point is that I did not have to deal with a self based on what was underneath my maladaptive self, because I no longer used that as the core. I switched to another core entirely.

I could call the core of my maladaptive self my "suffering", and the core of my new self my "vitality".

So as I got rid of the self based on suffering, I was at the same time building a self based on vitality.

Two very different selves.

So the process was a gradual crowding out of the maladaptive self by the vital self, and was a tolerable mix of both suffering and delight.

You mention a guarantee of true love. True love is also the most precious thing to me, and I desire it above all else.

What I do know, is that before my recovery my idea of true love was based on my childhood suffering, so it was a love the involved a lot of pain and struggle.

Now, after my recovery, my idea of true love is based on authentic relating, and so it is a love that involves a lot of joy and co-creation.

But as I have wrote, all this didn't lead to me getting the life I want - it merely enabled me to get it, and I haven't ended up (so far) getting it.

And that is the deal with recovery - you will be able to have all you want, but it doesn't mean you definitely will have all you want.

Now, the question is, had I known my life would end up with me getting none of what I wanted in the end, would I still have done the recovery work?

The answer is yes, because not only did the (at times) painful process of recovery result in much less pain than if I would've built a life based on my maladaptive self, it also enabled me to truly relate to the world, myself, and others.

So although I, at this point, have never gotten the life I wanted, I can say that I have truly lived, that I have perceived and interacted with myself, others, and the world in a pure and authentic way, unencumbered by childhood wounds.

Although that in itself is not enough to represent a meaningful and fulfilled life for me, it is enough to have made recovery worth the time and effort.

When you mention true love as being the most important thing, I'm curious as to whether or not you feel rebuilding yourself would bring you closer to experiencing true love? Or do you feel it would somehow bring you further away from it?

 

[Dawn0071111]

I originally answered this post because it was in the suicide section I can see you moved it to the recovery section where it's more appropriate LOL. I don't answer any post in the recovery section because I myself am not in recovery but since I started this conversation I will go ahead and continue LOL. First of all I want to say that I'm deeply moved and touched very deeply by what you wrote it also pains my heart. I admire your bravery and truth you truly have that strength and I admire it. There's a part of me that wishes I could do the same but I know that I don't have the courage or the desire to do so. I think my biggest problem is pride which is a part of my defense infrastructure and I have reason to believe that my ballad aptiv self is so fortified that in order to break it it truly would crush me and destroy me. Some personalities really are so warped and it's better just to throw away than to try to fix them LOL.. I know some people differ on that and they say well that's just the way you feel but the process is possible for anyone I personally don't believe that however. So I want you to know that you have my absolute respect and admiration and encouragement in your recovery process is very beautiful. As for the concept of true love for me.... I understand that my concept is concurrent with however I am right now but like I said before I'm just tired. I've never had a severe mental illness before and to be diagnosed with PTSD from relational trauma is overwhelming.... I feel like the best thing I can do is be honest about why I want to commit suicide not to blame my childhood or anything else but just to say that I'm making a deliberate conscious decision to forgo in her work and change into stuff instead and for me that's about as far as my Integrity can take me. I think also because I'm very isolated and alone which makes it almost unbearable if I was able to go through the process having close connections maybe that would help of course perhaps it's a catch-22 maybe I don't have those close connections because I'm a maladaptive self but amounts after Self can't get close connections which is what I feel I would need to help me through the process so really at the end of the day going to groups and all that stuff doesn't matter because I just feel like I'm behind a plexiglass...... this is the recovery section so I don't want to bring my morbidity here I just want to make sure that I responded to this amazing post of yours.......

 

[Tom9999]

One of the most fascinating things about recovery and this second self is that the discovery never ends - decades later I am still having sudden significant realizations of perceptions that I can improve on.

It's like the most interesting book you could ever read, and it keeps going on and on with new intriguing plot turns and twists!