Another developmental event that shaped my view on CTB as an valid option

[TAW122]

As a kid, while growing up I remember watching the Olympic games on TV (grew up in the 90's) and I remember when I was in either elementary or middle school, people talked about how it was difficult to even qualify at the Olympic level, and also winning gold medal (or any medals at all).

Disclaimer: I'm not an athlete and I don't have any interest nor plans to get into sports, let alone competitive sports or at a very high level. This is just an anecdotal experience that influenced and shaped my view on CTB as an option, before I even delved into the topic and idea of CTB itself.

So sitting at home as a middle school kid, my father talked about how much training and sacrifice as well as how many people are able to make it to the top (this also applies to professional sports as well, NBA, NFL, NHL, you name it, etc.), and I said "So for those people who didn't make it or those who didn't quite get the gold (most prestigious and cherished award), what happens to those people then? Their dreams are crushed, defeated.." So he said "Well they would just fall back on other plans, either be a coach, a teacher, or find another profession altogether. They have to accept defeat and adapt." So that latter part didn't sit comfortably with me, and sure, while most people do end up adapting or doing other stuff when their dreams did not pan out, it can't be said for everyone universally! I said, well what happens if they didn't do that, and then my dad said "Well they have no choice, they have to accept it! Otherwise they must be irrational [and need (professional) help!]." This of course upset me seeing that one doesn't have a way out of torment or any disappointing or uncomfortable situation.

Of course, the answer was death. However, people don't like that word and it has a lot of negative connotations (after all, we are in a pro-life, life worshiping society!). But logically and with my curiosity, I meditated on that idea of death and it made sense to me. Not everyone can be the top, sometimes there are only one winner and the rest losers (Note: Not losers as in failure in life, but losers of a particular competition, event, or task!) and/or 2nd, 3rd, and so forth. Sure they are still greatly lauded and respected (maybe that's enough for them, but can't speak for all!), but it just isn't as great as they expected, perhaps even subconsciously, there is always some feeling of loss and suffering (albeit nobody admits to it, but maybe occasionally they have that disappointment and some do). So to me, I asked myself "What else are they going to do?" They are getting older and the opportunity for glory has long passed, the ship has sailed… they won't get that once in a lifetime opportunity again and have to live the rest of lives with their shattered, defeated dreams! It then occurred to me, well this taboo option that people keep evading, dodging, or even actively shunning and avoiding, 'death' perhaps that is an option. So then, it made sense and that death solves all the problems one is facing and while there is deprivation of future joy and pleasure, that is irrelevant because one is not sentient to experience the future joy, therefore it cannot be a deprivation of what never was there, it just never was a thing (similar to how people who were never born could never suffer, but I digress a bit).

In conclusion, developmental events and similar situations like these are certainly a factor in shaping my views on death, even before I recognized or learn of the right to die and CTB. For me, it made the most logical sense because beyond coping and just accepting defeat (which for some people is not an option, be it they don't want to or they are not capable of doing so, or both), then death is indeed a valid option and solution. It is sad that most people (the mainstream populace, the normies) see death as some horrible outcome that is to be avoided, deferred, and/or even buried (out of sight, out of mind) at all costs, when in fact it is the most logical (and natural – all living things will perish at some point).

 

[SilentSadness]

I agree. Death is a very helpful option that people refuse to let you consider because they are consumed by pro-life ideology and indifference to the suffering of others. Sadly people will always be like this, the human race is not much different to a pack of wolves or piranhas. Also it really is disgusting to me that suicidal people are treated as "mentally ill" and punished for telling others. I also agree that people who aren't happy anymore should be able to die. There's a saying, when the fun stops stop.

 

[rhiino]

Yes, it is sad how people look at death. I think this is an manifestation of the survival instinct that nature gave us. People just see death and thus escepially self inflicted death as something horrible, because they want to live themselves. Through the lack of empathy they fail to look beyond their own horizon and that there may be people whose best option is literally death.

This reminds me of my experiences that the people who make their clothes dirty fastest are the first ones to call you out when they see you with the same clothes for several days, although they are still clean and flawless. They just cannot detach from their own situation.

 

[glossble]

I absolutely agree, I came to the same realization when I was 11, it hit me like a ton of bricks back then. I also hate the phrase "They should accept defeat and adapt".

But this's a survivorship bias when people mistake a visible successful subgroup as the entire group. So the person only considers the surviving observation without considering those data points that didn't "survive" in the event, aka didn't achieve their goals. And the percentage of those who didn't succeed is often much higher than those who did succeed. In reality, most people do not achieve their goals, but only a small percentage of people which others look to with the hope of reaching the same success one day.
Not to mention that many successful people were born with privileges such as wealth, or their parents had powerful connections that helped pull the strings in whatever field their kid's dreaming of. So even the talented and hardworking ones can miss out on an opportunity because someone rich is claiming it for themselves All it takes is one kid to tell their rich parents they want to become a popular singer or a professional sports player, and they will most likely get it.

I may sound too pessimistic, but this world is truly not a wonderful place where you can become whatever you want if you just follow your dreams passionately and put in some effort. That's why I don't understand why CTB is such a taboo, but suggesting others to continue living a miserable life of suffering isn't

 

[PI3.14]

I see your point and it's something I contemplated too.

It's indeed a fact that you either accept having lost in life or whatever goal and start adapting a new reality, that is more likely to be lower in terms of quality to the one you were seeking, or basically die. There is no other option.

For me, for example, finding love is a goal of mine. What happens then if I reach early 30s and still haven't even had a first relationship?

Then I either adapt and hope it happens in my mid or late 30s or basically CTB.

If I choose to adapt and again fail at this goal then the goalpost moves further away, the new one is to find love in 40s. You see the issue?

Each target you fail at achieving forces you to consider a lower quality target as an alternative. And if you fail the alternative then you will have to consider an even lower quality one.

I believe that, for many of us, there bound to be a point at which CTB is preferred over adapting. This point is different for each person.

I for example don't plan to live to my 30th birthday without a SO in my life. So age 29 is my limit which means that I have 3 years left.

 

[rhiino]

What happens then if I reach early 30s and still haven't even had a first relationship?

I can relate so much. 29 and never had a first relationship or even kiss. Nothing. Well, a girl let me hug her in school once... I gave up on that already years ago.

Each target you fail at achieving forces you to consider a lower quality target as an alternative. And if you fail the alternative then you will have to consider an even lower quality one.

This is exactly what I am going through the past decade. Every time I adapt to a new health problem and accept the lower quality of life through that and think I can go on and continue living (for my family), something new materializes, while nothing ever gets fixed or betters.

 

[TAW122]

@SilentSadness Yes, that's the most basic criteria for whether life is enjoyable (in the most simplest terms). While of course I have some other factors that determine whether life is worth living, that is one of the most important ones among other ones.

@rhiino That pretty much sums up the attitude of the normies and masses, especially the dirty clothes analogy. It seems like they are just trying to project their views onto any and everyone regardless of circumstances.

@glossble Thanks for your insights and yes, you are correct with how the world works. I do believe that this "survivorship bias" among the masses is indeed a big factor in why people hold such repugnance against the state of death (non-sentience and non-existence) even though all the problems and sufferings come from existence, sentience (life) itself. I don't think you are too pessimistic, it's the real truth about the state of sentience itself and many people outside of SaSu simply will not accept or acknowledge it due to their indoctrination and programming by their peers and the way society is.

@PI3.14 I'm sorry to hear about your struggles and I can relate to a similar situation. Years ago when I was still a virgin, I vowed that I will not live to 30 if I didn't somehow (in any way shape or form) lose my virginity before my 30th birthday. Fortunately, I was able to do just that (also fortunate enough to because in 2020 the pandemic hit and all the mess that followed it). Even if I could get it at some future time (nothing is guaranteed of course), I didn't want to live over 30 sentient years of suffering being a virgin. Had I not succeeded then I would have CTB'd likely by end of 2019. Even though my goals are different, I see where you are coming from.
As for your points about goalposts, yes that is the sad reality about people who "pass the buck" or give the whole run-around of you'll get it at x goalpost, then when said goalpost comes around and it didn't pan out, fails, or didn't happen, they come up with yet another excuse (just like the example you gave with your goal, if fail to get it before 30, then it's mid-late 30's, then if that fails, then 40+ and beyond, ad nauseam). I hate it when others arbitrarily move goalposts and even moreso when they do so in a manner that is only deferring (I call it denial through deferment, (this thread talks about the 'passing the buck' issue, and this other one talks about denial through deferment).

 

[PI3.14]

@PI3.14 I'm sorry to hear about your struggles and I can relate to a similar situation. Years ago when I was still a virgin, I vowed that I will not live to 30 if I didn't somehow (in any way shape or form) lose my virginity before my 30th birthday. Fortunately, I was able to do just that (also fortunate enough to because in 2020 the pandemic hit and all the mess that followed it). Even if I could get it at some future time (nothing is guaranteed of course), I didn't want to live over 30 sentient years of suffering being a virgin. Had I not succeeded then I would have CTB'd likely by end of 2019. Even though my goals are different, I see where you are coming from.
As for your points about goalposts, yes that is the sad reality about people who "pass the buck" or give the whole run-around of you'll get it at x goalpost, then when said goalpost comes around and it didn't pan out, fails, or didn't happen, they come up with yet another excuse (just like the example you gave with your goal, if fail to get it before 30, then it's mid-late 30's, then if that fails, then 40+ and beyond, ad nauseam). I hate it when others arbitrarily move goalposts and even moreso when they do so in a manner that is only deferring (I call it denial through deferment, (this thread talks about the 'passing the buck' issue, and this other one talks about denial through deferment).

I can lose my virginity if I want to anytime, since I live in europe. However, it's love that I'm looking for which makes it extremely difficult to me. I can control when and if I want to lose my virginity but I can't control when I will find love, if ever.

The thing is, I'm a perfectionist. I can't do it with someone whome I share no emotions with.

I hope to find love soon

 

[Nicholas22231]

I feel you on this. I have just permanently lost my chance to get my dream job. (in my country, state universities have age limits and im over the threshold and I havent even finished middle school yet) I can never be anything now.

Accept defeat and adapt my ass, as if. With the coming turbulent years and my lack of any achievements and experience, I'm doomed to have shitty jobs for the rest of my life. If I choose death, it's what I choose to realistically avoid suffering in MY life, my life, my choice, I don't get why everyone is so obsessed about control. Some police here even arrest people unlawfully to interfere suicide attempts, it's a fucked up world.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Jean Améry talks about this in his book On Suicide: A Discourse on Voluntary Death. He uses the term échec to describe this kind of failure to achieve, and considers it a manifestation of human dignity to kill oneself in response to échec. Some of my favourite quotes:

Therefore, the humanity and dignity of each person [...] are opposed to échec. They cannot bear it. Half smashed to pieces after the fall into échec, human beings lift themselves up in the name of their humanity and snatch death for themselves.

In most cases society rejects suicide, first of all for reasons connected to the preservation of the species, but in our civilization also under prior religious and ethical premises. In carrying out this rejection, psychologists and psychiatrists are society's faithful servants. The grain merchant killed himself? What a senseless act! After serving his sentence in jail and most likely after psychological and hygienic advice from an appointed expert, he could have lived on as a minor employee, and in the end he could even have been successful again. In any case, his unreason could have been steered to make him become what we all are: a useful member of society. In opposition to that, the subject sticks to its rights. It doesn't want to install itself comfortably in échec. It doesn't care about society, frequently not even about next of kin who are made unhappy by its choice to die--to a certain degree, for no one likes to live with the dead. It reaffirms one last time its dignity.

You have lived and it was for nothing, because one day the world that you've been carrying inside you, the entire world, will perish. [...] Isn't it better to beat the blade that guillotines us all to the punch? To escape that échec, and the last one of all to boot, with a no that brings all rejoinders to silence?

 

[Nicholas22231]

Jean Améry talks about this in his book On Suicide: A Discourse on Voluntary Death. He uses the term échec to describe this kind of failure to achieve, and considers it a manifestation of human dignity to kill oneself in response to échec. Some of my favourite quotes:

Therefore, the humanity and dignity of each person [...] are opposed to échec. They cannot bear it. Half smashed to pieces after the fall into échec, human beings lift themselves up in the name of their humanity and snatch death for themselves.

In most cases society rejects suicide, first of all for reasons connected to the preservation of the species, but in our civilization also under prior religious and ethical premises. In carrying out this rejection, psychologists and psychiatrists are society's faithful servants. The grain merchant killed himself? What a senseless act! After serving his sentence in jail and most likely after psychological and hygienic advice from an appointed expert, he could have lived on as a minor employee, and in the end he could even have been successful again. In any case, his unreason could have been steered to make him become what we all are: a useful member of society. In opposition to that, the subject sticks to its rights. It doesn't want to install itself comfortably in échec. It doesn't care about society, frequently not even about next of kin who are made unhappy by its choice to die--to a certain degree, for no one likes to live with the dead. It reaffirms one last time its dignity.

You have lived and it was for nothing, because one day the world that you've been carrying inside you, the entire world, will perish. [...] Isn't it better to beat the blade that guillotines us all to the punch? To escape that échec, and the last one of all to boot, with a no that brings all rejoinders to silence?

This book sounds like an interesting read! Do you have a link to download it for free?

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

This is a really interesting post, and something I've thought about before as well. Our natural instinct is to adapt to changes in our environment, but what happens when adaptation and acclimatization isn't possible? For some animals, their brains are highly plastic and they can re-wire their minds quickly in response to a change in circumstances, but for humans it's a lot more difficult, it seems. We have all these hopes, dreams, and memories from early on in life that stick with us, as well as a sense of identity.

Like your example, if being an olympic athlete is where one derives their sense of self and meaning from, then they get told to give up sports forever, how are they meant to feel? The default response is to find something new to fill the void, but I personally feel like it's not always possible. I think this is the reason why many famous musicians and performers succumb to ctb if they feel themselves losing notoriety, or some of their artistic ability, because even if they have money, popularity, etc the sense of identity they derive from their role as an artist is too great to lose.

I've been reading a lot about the third place theory and how many people lack a sense of community, because they don't have a space outside of home and work to meet people or do activities. It's becoming more common for people to start experiencing depression and other issues after university graduation, due to losing that sense of community, identity as a student, and having access to activities they probably enjoyed since childhood such as sports, music, theatre, etc. Yet, everyone just gets told that you'll adjust.

I don't think people should have to 'adjust' in the first place, I think there should be more outlets for people to pursue their goals and hobbies rather than telling people it's over if they fail at one competition, but we live in a very individualized world. The hedonistic treadmill is another problem, once you achieve a goal, the satisfaction fades and the brain will start chasing another one, lest unfulfillment start to creep up again.

This fundamental problem is also something that drives me to ctb. I've missed out on a lot and people think that once you lose out, one can always cope with a lesser sentence so to speak and be happy with doing something that goes against our desires.

In opposition to that, the subject sticks to its rights. It doesn't want to install itself comfortably in échec

This author describes that feeling pretty succinctly. Its something I hear often as a disabled person, that I should be happy to have a mediocre job and be alone while others get to reap the rewards of their efforts. I think it's difficult for many to understand how torturous it is to be a person who cannot simply accept failure after and failure and would prefer to check out once a certain level of intolerance is reached.

 

[Forever Sleep]

This is a really interesting post, and something I've thought about before as well. Our natural instinct is to adapt to changes in our environment, but what happens when adaptation and acclimatization isn't possible? For some animals, their brains are highly plastic and they can re-wire their minds quickly in response to a change in circumstances, but for humans it's a lot more difficult, it seems. We have all these hopes, dreams, and memories from early on in life that stick with us, as well as a sense of identity.

Like your example, if being an olympic athlete is where one derives their sense of self and meaning from, then they get told to give up sports forever, how are they meant to feel? The default response is to find something new to fill the void, but I personally feel like it's not always possible. I think this is the reason why many famous musicians and performers succumb to ctb if they feel themselves losing notoriety, or some of their artistic ability, because even if they have money, popularity, etc the sense of identity they derive from their role as an artist is too great to lose.

I've been reading a lot about the third place theory and how many people lack a sense of community, because they don't have a space outside of home and work to meet people or do activities. It's becoming more common for people to start experiencing depression and other issues after university graduation, due to losing that sense of community, identity as a student, and having access to activities they probably enjoyed since childhood such as sports, music, theatre, etc. Yet, everyone just gets told that you'll adjust.

I don't think people should have to 'adjust' in the first place, I think there should be more outlets for people to pursue their goals and hobbies rather than telling people it's over if they fail at one competition, but we live in a very individualized world. The hedonistic treadmill is another problem, once you achieve a goal, the satisfaction fades and the brain will start chasing another one, lest unfulfillment start to creep up again.

This fundamental problem is also something that drives me to ctb. I've missed out on a lot and people think that once you lose out, one can always cope with a lesser sentence so to speak and be happy with doing something that goes against our desires.



This author describes that feeling pretty succinctly. Its something I hear often as a disabled person, that I should be happy to have a mediocre job and be alone while others get to reap the rewards of their efforts. I think it's difficult for many to understand how torturous it is to be a person who cannot simply accept failure after and failure and would prefer to check out once a certain level of intolerance is reached.

That's an interesting comparison between humans and animals. About brain plasticity. I suppose the main difference is- if you're an athlete who runs slower than other athletes, you lose the race. If your an antelope that runs slower than other antelopes- you get eaten by a lion. Maybe the pressure for animals to adapt is so much higher, so they become better at it or, die. We've basically eliminated natural selection in the human race. (In certain ways anyhow.)

Of course, the tragedy- as you point out is that the failed or maimed athlete, the failed or blind artist is still expected to thrive in this world. Plus, we often aren't given the choice to give up. In what the 'normies' see as kindness, they insist that we're all kept alive- whether we want to be or not.

The other thing is money. It's likely most of us will spend a good third of our lives earning money. Another third sleeping. You have to be fairly lucky in this world- I think- to do a job you actually really enjoy. So- that leaves one third of your life for things you might actually like. That assumes you have enough energy at the end of your working day/ week to actually enjoy your leisure time and not simply use it to recover! That isn't always a prospect people find appealing either.

It's so difficult to tell with animals though. Are they living the life they want to live? Do they even think about the kind of life they'd like to live? Do turtles swimming about amongst trash think- this place was so much nicer 50 years ago? Are they that self aware? Or, that conscious of their surroundings or, do they just accept things as they are? Do they feel resentful I wonder. I think- to a much lesser degree or else, wouldn't we see a lot more suicides in the animal kingdom?

I wonder if our level of self awareness has really benefited us. It's certainly made us individually more competitive.

 

[NoPoint2Life]

I love that you use the Olympics as an example. With athletes that give their entire life to a sport, you hear more and more lately about them having mental health struggles after they are done with the sport because they didn't have a plan for the future. and mental issues also for the ones that don't win it all and their dreams are crushed.

I don't believe that animals are that self-aware. I think they are programmed to adapt. This is probably a bad example, but this makes me think about humans that lose a limb. They have to learn to adapt and while there might be some initial depression, most of them seem able to do it! I don't have the will to get through life as it is - I can't imagine having to adapt to something major like that!

 

[Archness]

I absolutely agree, I came to the same realization when I was 11, it hit me like a ton of bricks back then. I also hate the phrase "They should accept defeat and adapt".

But this's a survivorship bias when people mistake a visible successful subgroup as the entire group. So the person only considers the surviving observation without considering those data points that didn't "survive" in the event, aka didn't achieve their goals. And the percentage of those who didn't succeed is often much higher than those who did succeed. In reality, most people do not achieve their goals, but only a small percentage of people which others look to with the hope of reaching the same success one day.
Not to mention that many successful people were born with privileges such as wealth, or their parents had powerful connections that helped pull the strings in whatever field their kid's dreaming of. So even the talented and hardworking ones can miss out on an opportunity because someone rich is claiming it for themselves All it takes is one kid to tell their rich parents they want to become a popular singer or a professional sports player, and they will most likely get it.

I may sound too pessimistic, but this world is truly not a wonderful place where you can become whatever you want if you just follow your dreams passionately and put in some effort. That's why I don't understand why CTB is such a taboo, but suggesting others to continue living a miserable life of suffering isn't

"If you fail, you deserve to live the life of a worthless failure."
Such unspeakable words remain unsaid, but true in application.

I saw how quickly parents are to deem other's lives as a failure, as essentially worthless. How critical their gaze can get, how easily they dismiss others. Then how important "success" is...

If I can't succeed, then my life would be disposable. Then it'd be indistinguishable as true failure. I might as well drop dead; it would be ideal.

If life's only lived for success, then without it, wouldn't it make sense to simply die? Wouldn't it be a valid option? When it's so easy to have a life of a failure, a disposable life no one could miss.

Honestly, with how dark the world can get (and is going to get), right to die is valid.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

This book sounds like an interesting read! Do you have a link to download it for free?

I don't unfortunately, I bought a physical copy. I did find this from a quick search though, seems usable. Scrolled down to a random page and found another banger of a quote:

"In the long run, you've got to live," people say, excusing every miserable thing that has been initiated. But do you have to live? Do you always have to be there just because you were there once? In the moment before the leap, suicides tear to pieces a prescription of nature and throw it at the feet of the invisible prescriber. [...] they numbly say, "Maybe someone has to, but not me, and I'm not going to bow down to an ardent compulsion that comes from somewhere outside as a a law of society and from within as a lex naturae, and which I don't want to recognize anymore.