Discussion Anti-Zionism = Antisemitism

[Pessimist]

"But anti-Zionism is not a form of antisemitism"
It is. Criticizing the conservative government of Netanyahu and the settlements in the West Bank is not antisemitic. However, believing that the only Jewish country in the entire world doesn't have the right to exist is antisemitic and racist. British-controlled Palestine was given to the Jews after centuries of pogroms and antisemitic attacks.

"But antisemitism is not a form of racism"
It is. The belief that the Jewish race is inferior led Nazis to murder six million Jews in the Holocaust. Antisemites are not targeting a religion, they are targeting a race, a nation, and an ethnic group. Examples of non-religious Jews include Albert Einstein, Karl Marx and Theodor Herzl. One third of Israeli citizens are non-religious Jews ("Hilonim").

"But Jews are committing genocide"
No, they are not. The Israeli intent is to destroy Hamas, which is not a racial or ethnic group, but a terrorist organization. So it's not a genocide. Israel wants to destroy Hamas because of October 7 Hamas attack, which included mass murder, rape and kidnapping.

"But Israel is an apartheid state"
No, it's not. More than 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs, Arab parties entered the Israeli government, and Arabs sit on the Supreme Court of Israel. On the other hand there are 0 Jews living under Palestinian rule. The United Arab List, an Islamist, conservative, ani-Zionist, and anti-LGBT party, is one of the most popular political parties in Israel. Hadash and Ta'al are also popular Arab anti-Zionist parties in Israel.

"But Israel is controlling Gaza"
No, it's not. In 2005, Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip, dismantled all its settlements, and forced Jews to leave their homes. Palestinians responded by electing Hamas who turned Gaza into a terror state.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

There is 0 evidence that the continuous bombing in Gaza is effective whatsoever in achieving the claims of counterterrorism. The purported motives are irrelevant to determining if actions are genocidal. The outcome is the same: murdering an innocent ethnoreligious group on mass. There are more deaths of innocent civilians per capita than any genocide in the past 2 centuries.

This is genocide no matter what you say about the motives behind it.

I don't suspect you will see to it, but I hope anyone who stumbles across this post is extremely skeptical of it.

This post is a disgusting grift in defense of serial human rights violations. No matter what clothing you dress it in, including cultural relativism.

 

[Pessimist]

There is 0 evidence that the continuous bombing in Gaza is effective whatsoever in achieving the claims of counterterrorism. The purported motives are irrelevant to determining if actions are genocidal. The outcome is the same: murdering an innocent ethnoreligious group on mass. There are more deaths of innocent civilians per capita than any genocide in the past 2 centuries.

This is genocide no matter what you say about the motives behind it.

I don't suspect you will see to it, but I hope anyone who stumbles across this post is extremely skeptical of it.

This post is a disgusting grift in defense of serial human rights violations. No matter what clothing you dress it in, including cultural relativism.

Are you criticizing the current Israeli government and army, or the existence of a Jewish state in general? Also, if you want to talk about genocide, you can actually argue that Hamas committed genocide against Israelis and Jews:

 

[Rhizomorph1]

If you want to talk about genocide, you can actually argue that Hamas committed genocide against Israelis and Jews:
View attachment 124918

I won't entertain this strawman regardless of its veracity

I'm criticizing the mass bombing of innocent civilians. You tell me.

Please follow along with the teleological logics of conversation...

 

[Kyrok]

Civilians represent at least 75% of casualties in most wars. In the case of Gaza, Hamas intentionally embeds itself in civilian areas and buildings for the express purpose of undermining Israel's public profile.

Also, Hamas forced civilians to remain rather than leave the north, killing many who tried to flee.

Israel sent leaflets, made phone calls, and far more to help Gazans civilians get out of harms way. IDF even secured corridors for civilians to head south, protecting them from Hamas fire.

Mosul saw 17 civilian deaths per airstrike. Alleppo saw 21. Global average, 4.5. Gaza, 0.8.

Fighting an embedded terrorist group in urban environments is going to put civilians in the middle of combat. Yet, Israel did what it could, despite Hamas, to help civilians get out of harms way.

Undoubtedly, this is a horrible, horrible situation for the people of Gaza. But Hamas has siphoned off nearly all financial aid to Gaza since 2005, using it to fortify itself militarily and kill Israelis (Jews, Bedouins, Arabs). Thousands of rockets, suicide bombers, stabbings, and over 1200 murdered on Oct 7th including killing babies and raping women.

What else could Israel do other than try to take down Hamas once and for all? It is horrible that civilians were killed, injured, and their homes destroyed. But Hamas forced them to stay and killed them if they were caught fleeing.

I agree that Likud was wrong to work against a two-state solution. But Hamas attacked on Oct 7th for the express purpose of stopping the peace treaty between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Hamas, in other words, acted to stop the road to peace because they would not accept Israel's existence, a country that is inclusive of 2.5 million Muslims who live in peace with Jews and Christians. Note also that 2/3 of Israelis are from the middle east. It is where Iraqi, Saudi, Moroccan, Iranian Jews settled after being forced out.

If not for the Arabs attacking Israel in 1948, there would probably have been peaceful coexistence, just as there is generally peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Jews inside Israel.

Lastly, what has happened to the people of Gaza is horrible. On the individual level, it is a tragedy regardless of the politics. But before passing judgment on the political, there's a lot to learn. Israel is not trying to wipe out an "ethnoreligious group.". There are over 5 million Palestinians, about half of which are in Gaza. Collateral civilian deaths in Gaza reflect 0.3% of their population. Neither in motive nor in scope is that genocide. It is tragic. It is horrible. It is even brutal. But the intent is to destroy Hamas and its infrastructure, not wipe out the millions who live in Gaza. If Hamas let their own people flee, the deaths would have been vastly fewer.

 

[SexyIncél]

Fortunately, most suicidal people aren't so afraid of being canceled for being called "racist". For simply disagreeing with nationalists who stick indigenous people in concentration camps. (Which are distinct from death camps; Japanese-American internment camps were concentration camps. Though nowadays, death camp may start becoming increasingly accurate)

Gaza scholar Norman Finkelstein, whose parents were in concentration camps (and the rest of his family was killed) challenges everyone to give him the hardest questions. Here's a good interview, to get up to speed

• "But Israel is an apartheid state": Historian Benny Morris (the foremost Holocaust scholar), who's right wing, says the West Bank is an example of apartheid. Noam Chomsky says it's much worse than apartheid; it's a gift to Israel to call its actions merely apartheid
• "But Israel is controlling Gaza": they control what goes in & out: land, sea, air. Israel put Gazans on a starvation-plus diet. People were only very rarely allowed in & out. This is uncontroversial
• On genocide: Israel's government wasn't committing genocide before. The population in an open air prison or concentration camp can increase. Though occasionally Israel would "mow the lawn": a lawn half of which is children, mowing their heads off. But now it's fair to say Israel has declared a war of genocide. Whether it can actually commit genocide (as opposed to, say, ethnic cleansing or whatever) is up to international pressure. Governments are constrained in what they can get away with
• "But anti-Zionism is not a form of antisemitism": When Chomsky was a young zionist, he opposed a Jewish ethno-state. Nowadays, he'd be called anti-zionist. Many Jewish people are anti-zionist; to avoid calling them antisemites, we play games like calling them "self-hating Jews". It's obviously a way to silence open discussion

I will add: since the US government has veto power over Israel's actions, it shares heavy responsibility for Israel's crimes. Israel is effectively a military base for the US, a pillar of US mideast strategy. So no need to blame only Israelis; lots of blame to go around

I likely won't respond, as there's more important things to do. Millions of people know what's up. Uninteresting to discuss with people here who say things like: "The Palestinians are breeding faster than the Jews. It's saddening, really. I wish the Jews put up a glorious fight - but they seem as cucked as the whitebois. Christian mercy to foreigners is one hell of a drug, apparently."

 

[Pessimist]

Fortunately, most suicidal people aren't so afraid of being canceled for being called "racist". For simply disagreeing with nationalists who stick indigenous people in concentration camps. (Which are distinct from death camps; Japanese-American internment camps were concentration camps. Though nowadays, death camp may start becoming increasingly accurate)

Gaza scholar Norman Finkelstein, whose parents were in concentration camps (and the rest of his family was killed) challenges everyone to give him the hardest questions. Here's a good interview, to get up to speed

• "But Israel is an apartheid state": Historian Benny Morris (the foremost Holocaust scholar), who's right wing, says the West Bank is an example of apartheid. Noam Chomsky says it's much worse than apartheid; it's a gift to Israel to call its actions merely apartheid
• "But Israel is controlling Gaza": they control what goes in & out: land, sea, air. Israel put Gazans on a starvation-plus diet. People were only very rarely allowed in & out. This is uncontroversial
• On genocide: Israel's government wasn't committing genocide before. The population in an open air prison or concentration camp can increase. Though occasionally Israel would "mow the lawn": a lawn half of which is children, mowing their heads off. But now it's fair to say Israel has declared a war of genocide. Whether it can actually commit genocide (as opposed to, say, ethnic cleansing or whatever) is up to international pressure. Governments are constrained in what they can get away with
• "But anti-Zionism is not a form of antisemitism": When Chomsky was a young zionist, he opposed a Jewish ethno-state. Nowadays, he'd be called anti-zionist. Many Jewish people are anti-zionist; to avoid calling them antisemites, we play games like calling them "self-hating Jews". It's obviously a way to silence open discussion

I will add: since the US government has veto power over Israel's actions, it shares heavy responsibility for Israel's crimes. Israel is effectively a military base for the US, a pillar of US mideast strategy. So no need to blame only Israelis; lots of blame to go around

I likely won't respond, as there's more important things to do. Millions of people know what's up. Uninteresting to discuss with people here who say things like: "The Palestinians are breeding faster than the Jews. It's saddening, really. I wish the Jews put up a glorious fight - but they seem as cucked as the whitebois. Christian mercy to foreigners is one hell of a drug, apparently."

Holocaust survivors: Norman Finkelstein is not a Holocaust survivor. If you want to talk about Holocaust survivors who are still alive, the vast majority of them live in Israel.

Anti-Zionist Jews: Noam Chomsky is a Nazi apologist who defended Robert Faurisson. Anti-Zionist Jews are basically the equivalent of black neo-Nazis like Kanye West. They don't believe in their own right to self-determination. If I remember correctly, 50% of Jews live in Israel. Even outside of Israel, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists. There are two types of anti-Zionist Jews:
1. Ultra-Orthodox Jews: Some ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that the existence of semi-secular Israel prevents the arrival of the Messiah. As an atheist Jew, I'm not a big fan of them. It's basically religious fanaticism.
2. Auto-antisemites: They tend to be self-hating Jews who are young and live outside of Israel. The ones who are not full of racial self-loathing tend to be communists and extreme leftists, but they are the minority of a minority.

"Israel is controlling Gaza": No, it's not. Before 7 October, Gazans were allowed to enter and work in Israel, while Israelis were not allowed to enter Gaza. If anything, Egypt and Jordan should let them in, not Israel.

 

[Silo2938]

first both jew and arab are semitic people. anti zionis equal to anti jew is plain wrong, there's huge distinction. i dont care about jew state same as i dont care about japan state. what i care is how you build that state. if you segregated native people and believe that land is gift to you by your god, that's fuckin wrong. and if you think there is no extraordinary crimes committed because the population is growing, you just ignorant. lastly, the fucking brit drew that maps!

 

[Pessimist]

first both jew and arab are semitic people.

You're already starting off with an antisemitic dog whistle. Are Nazis = socialists just because they call themselves "National Socialists"? It doesn't matter, the current term for racism against Jewish people is "antisemitism", while racism against Arabs is called "anti-Arabism".

 

[SexyIncél]

No one's scared to be called an antisemite anymore, because it's used so transparently to shut up decent people & ruin their lives. But how dangerous it is to cry wolf, to support crimes, when there's real antisemites

 

[Pessimist]

No one's scared to be called an antisemite anymore, because it's used so transparently to shut up decent people & ruin their lives. But how dangerous it is to cry wolf, to support crimes, when there's real antisemites

I'm not trying to scare anyone, but if something is antisemitic, then I'm going to call it out. Antisemitism wasn't some kind of Nazi invention; all neo-Nazis are antisemites, but not all antisemites are neo-Nazis.

 

[SexyIncél]

On this specific point, we agree. Nazis just leveraged existing anti-semitism

And there's a big split between Israeli Jews & US ones. Lots of younger Jewish people in the US are freaked out by Israel's genocidal crimes. They get offended when they're cancelled as "self-hating Jews" while fighting for the underdog. Including prominent Jewish people like Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky

 

[odradek]

"Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are linked, and the former certainly can be present in the latter, but it is not always. In fact, assertions that the two are inherently synonymous are themselves antisemitic. Such claims often rely on the idea that Jews as a collective must support the Zionist cause, which is not only untrue but also paints Jews as a monolith."

"By painting Jews as not just an ethnic and religious minority group in any given country, but actually as foreign nationals of a separate Jewish state, Zionism reaffirms the antisemitic belief that Jews are natural outsiders and ought not to be treated as equal citizens of countries outside of Israel. And this argument has been utilized to actively perpetuate harm: There is a great deal of evidence that some Nazis adopted Zionism as a way to expel Jews from Germany."

[source]

 

[Pessimist]

And there's a big split between Israeli Jews & US ones.

Around 50% of Jews live in Israel; maybe you should try to understand why so many Jews had to move to Israel. It's because we were expelled from Muslim countries.

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Chinaski]

Around 50% of Jews live in Israel; maybe you should try to understand why so many Jews had to move to Israel. It's because we were expelled from Muslim countries.

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I keep referring back to this post every time l think about Palestinian children having amputations sans anaesthetic and it sure does clear my conscience, thank you for posting this

 

[Pessimist]

I keep referring back to this post every time l think about Palestinian children having amputations sans anaesthetic and it sure does clear my conscience, thank you for posting this

It has to be the most illogical response to this post thus far. There are wounded and dead civilians on both sides. Is this your first time hearing about a war?