Antinatalism

[divinemistress36]

The older I get the more I realize how cruel this world is and I'm becoming against procreation. I know a lot of kids/people have good lives but there's a lot of kids/people that have bad lives to and just can't guarantee your kid will have a good life no matter how well one raises them. I have good parents but I still ended up with bad depression then had a stroke from an assault. What do you guys think?

 

[notwhereIbelong]

I cannot with a good conscience bring a new life into this world. This world is entirely fucked, and it's going down the drain really fast, there is no guarantee my child will have even a decent life.
Maybe with the right conditions (aka a good, stable partner, steady income, and just a generally well-adjusted life for myself), I may take adoption into consideration, at least I'd be giving a chance to someone who was already forced to be born; but creating an entirely new life seems almost cruel

 

[divinemistress36]

I cannot with a good conscience bring a new life into this world. This world is entirely fucked, and it's going down the drain really fast, there is no guarantee my child will have even a decent life.
Maybe with the right conditions (aka a good, stable partner, steady income, and just a generally well-adjusted life for myself), I may take adoption into consideration, at least I'd be giving a chance to someone who was already forced to be born; but creating an entirely new life seems almost cruel

I Feel for kids they have no idea the hardships that await them

 

[coolgal82]

Personally i think having children is fine but only on the condition that
1. the parents like can actually take care of the child like they should really think about it
and 2. that anyone can easily choose death if they dislike their life. thats the main thing really. like people can have good lives and people can have bad lives but that's only weighted more towards positive if anyone with a bad life can choose to end it idk. it's hard to describe but like, aslong as you can at some point go "nah its not for me" then i think it's like anything else that you can try and then quit if you don't like it and its fine idk

 

[ramon]

I believe both, pro-lifers and pro-choicers, should respect the overall reprodution behaviour of all humankind.

There was a time pandemics, wars, famines, and natural disasters could wipe out the entire human race; and this forced humakind to procreate as much as possible to survive as a specie vía attrition. Now, we're living times where more humans do not greatly contribute to our kind's benefit and this has lead to historically low birthrates and high suicide rates.

In spite of the potentiality for cruelty all humans have, government and society can't police your reproductive behaviour and definitely should NOT police your choice to end your life.

 

[ninfanatic]

i used to be antinatalist, and i do respect it, but i think i was more angry at my own birth. i'm not against it but it's not something i'm actively engaged with anymore.

 

[kiki <3]

i am not necessarily against it, however i do understand and to a certain extent it does stress me out to think about the inevitable pain that is to come for a lot of people who are yet to be born. it is difficult for me to convey my feelings on this as i have never experienced parenthood and i am most certain i would feel differently if i had a child/children. at least i know i would fight tooth and nail to give my child/children a loving home, support and care.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I think Elon Musk is a perfect point towards antinatalism. He has like, what, 12 kids now and not even he with his vastly expansive (and likely ill-gotten) gains are enough to guarantee they're happy. One of his children in particular seems to be very vocal against him.

That said I can't fully commit to antinatalism myself because I still have this rotten lizard brain telling me to reproduce and it will not be satisfied until I get to do so. I think if people are going to be pronatalist then they should at least be doing more to actually benefit the people trying to have children and the children themselves. Those people should understand that they have a bigger responsibility and obligation to actually help make the world a better place for future generations. At least with antinatalism one gets to be more selfish and is allowed to vibe with the upcoming chaos the future will bring.

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

I don't see how bringing a life into this world, that exists in this universe that operates the way it does, can be a good thing done for the sake of that life.

This is inherently somewhat nonsensical, I know. How does a person who does not exist benefit from beginning to exist in the world? I don't think there is any benefit to them. I think all life brought into the world is ultimately done for reasons that are never truly for the sake of the individuals being born.

People have kids for "their legacy," because they want the experience of being parents, for the "future of humanity," because they want someone to take care of them when they get old, or whatever of any other reasons.

If the person who does not exist is "fine" in some sense, much like I consider that before I existed, well I didn't exist, I don't think I was in any kind of state of suffering or "longing" to be born into existence, then for what possible good reason for the sake of that individual would people choose on behalf of that person that they ought to exist because "it's better for them?"

I don't think there truly are any good reasons that can be argued.

If people are somehow "worse off" for not existing, then we would need to consider that there are infinitely many people who don't exist and will never exist, if the number of humans ever born will only be a finite number. We would have to think that there are infinitely many people who are in some kind of negative state because they will never exist on earth to... what, eat some ice cream, work a job, go for walks, argue with others, get sick, and die, among other things done in human life?

I don't think so.

 

[Life'sA6itch]

I am also usually against procreation due to the large number of people who simply don't give creating and caring for that young life the consideration it deserves. What is the need or desire to create life especially these days with all the high costs to simply live your own life then add into that the costs for each addt'l child? What about crime, poor schools, school shootings, cost of trade schools and/or college, healthcare, extracurriculars, etc? There are seven billion + humans already, seemingly 60% or more of current parents cannot mentally, physically, financially take care of their offspring in various ways, teach them right from wrong, ensure they won't harm others (bullying, become a school shooter, murderer, predator, etc.). Large numbers of humans experience bad childhoods and bad parenting, when will the large number of bad and likely to be bad parents simply be rational adults and not procreate?

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I have also come to conclude that reproduction is unethical, but not necessarily due to the current state of the world (which is vastly superior to 99.9% of history). Rather, I take the view that you do not have the right to impose the burdens of existence--including the potential for horrific suffering--on another human being, even if you have the circumstances to be a good parent.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm so glad that I didn't have children. Not that I got the opportunity. I haven't ever really wanted them though. I think that has to be tough really. Some people- including my Mum desperately wanted children. I do hold antinatilist views myself. Still, I have to wonder- of what seems the majority of antinatilists here, how many of us wanted children anyway? Much easier to refrain from something you have no desire for anyway... Maybe I'll run a poll. I'm fascinated to find out...

 

[Ol Messier 87]

I think that when you're hesitating between different colors to paint the walls of your living room, you don't ask your one blind friend for advice.

 

[divinemistress36]

I'm so glad that I didn't have children. Not that I got the opportunity. I haven't ever really wanted them though. I think that has to be tough really. Some people- including my Mum desperately wanted children. I do hold antinatilist views myself. Still, I have to wonder- of what seems the majority of antinatilists here, how many of us wanted children anyway? Much easier to refrain from something you have no desire for anyway... Maybe I'll run a poll. I'm fascinated to find out...

Thats true. Even before trauma I didnt want them I didnt ever feel that maternal instinct except with animals

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

I'm so glad that I didn't have children. Not that I got the opportunity. I haven't ever really wanted them though. I think that has to be tough really. Some people- including my Mum desperately wanted children. I do hold antinatilist views myself. Still, I have to wonder- of what seems the majority of antinatilists here, how many of us wanted children anyway? Much easier to refrain from something you have no desire for anyway... Maybe I'll run a poll. I'm fascinated to find out...

Antinatalist views aside, I don't think I ever wanted to have kids anyway. The idea of raising kids and starting a family never really appealed to me. I grew up in a situation though where my dad suffered a brain injury when I was 6, and I didn't form strong bonds with my mom and sister. I always felt different, like I didn't belong or relate to my family, and desperately just wanted to get away from everything I grew up with.

30 years of living and I've finally been able to break away from everything, but even if my situation becomes "better," I still won't miss or long for a family, since the idea of family is a broken concept to me.

But I do just want to focus on caring for myself and the other people around me, if I can. Hell just going to get a coffee, making eye contact, and saying have a good day, if that makes the barista smile, then I consider myself to have done a good thing. Even the mundane day to day stuff, humans can still be good to each other if we put in some effort.

But still, I don't see any reason to bring new life here. We who already exist have got enough problems to deal with, it doesn't concern people who don't exist, let's not make our problems their problems. I don't necessarily think that humanity or life should go extinct, but that would just be the natural consequence of refusing to create new life.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I don't know if I can fully consider myself as an antinatalist. Right now, I do believe that procreation is immoral because of the small chance of the kid suffering a lot to where they want to be dead and also because, whilst I acknowledge that many people do enjoy life, it isn't an adequate reason to procreate as a non existent person wouldn't feel regret over not being alive to experience life. There's no loss in not reproducing and nobody is going to get hurt.

However, from the definition that I've seen of antinatalism, I can't consider myself as an antinatalist as they're meant to believe that procreation is immoral no matter what. I personally think that procreation would be okay if:
1. Anybody above the age of 18 has access to euthanasia and can choose to peacefully die if they want to
2. The parents who procreate aren't abusive, are caring and can take care of their children's needs without expecting anything in return

 

[derpyderpins]

I don't know if I can fully consider myself as an antinatalist. Right now, I do believe that procreation is immoral because of the small chance of the kid suffering a lot to where they want to be dead and also because, whilst I acknowledge that many people do enjoy life, it isn't an adequate reason to procreate as a non existent person wouldn't feel regret over not being alive to experience life. There's no loss in not reproducing and nobody is going to get hurt.

However, from the definition that I've seen of antinatalism, I can't consider myself as an antinatalist as they're meant to believe that procreation is immoral no matter what. I personally think that procreation would be okay if:
1. Anybody above the age of 18 has access to euthanasia and can choose to peacefully die if they want to
2. The parents who procreate aren't abusive, are caring and can take care of their children's needs without expecting anything in return

Reasonable take, although I'd say the parents should only have to take care of them expecting nothing in return until age 18 if that's when they have access to euthanasia.

I don't have strength in me today to fight the "not existing is objectively better because there's no pain and I don't know what I'm missing out on" take for the 5000th time. I recently read my own post making the same argument nearly a decade ago and I can tell it was merely a path to the conclusion I wanted to reach because I was in pain.

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

I was reading an article the other day that fleshed out some of my thinking better than I could articulate:

"If we can feel compassion for potential beings we are thinking of bringing into existence (based on the compassion we already feel for existing beings), and we want to prevent further unnecessary suffering, then antinatalism would appear to be a natural extension of compassion. I think it's also worth mentioning here that antinatalism does not preclude having children per se, only bringing new sentient life into existence. For this reason, adoption still persists as an option for those who find the antinatalist arguments convincing and who are adamant about giving up the potential meaning to be found in parenthood. This is a point that Benatar is keen to underline. Making this sort of decision as an antinatalist will be a further way of reducing human suffering in the world, considering the countless number of children desperate for homes.

There are many reasons we should be wary about dismissing antinatalism based on presumptions about someone's mental health. The possibility that depression could support the philosophical position is one such reason, which I hope this discussion has helped to elucidate. At the same time, the arguments for and against antinatalism should be dealt with in their own right. Appeals to mental health aren't necessary to either defend or refute the position. Furthermore, assessing the arguments for antinatalism, in and of themselves, will better guide decisions about bringing new people into the world, which, as the antinatalists rightly argue, is a serious choice. It's serious, not because it will affect the lives of the parents, but because it involves bringing a new being into the world, a sentient being who will likely live out more than 80 years of existence on the planet – and in the society – we are leaving them with."

On Antinatalism and Depression

Antinatalism is the view that procreation is morally wrong. Its most well-known current defender is David Benatar, a professor of philosophy at the University of Capetown, who explicated this moral position on procreation in his 2006 book Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming Into...

www.samwoolfe.com

 

[Ironborn]

I'd never tell someone to not have kids, that's not my business. But I have never wanted children despite family and friends pestering me about it. I have ended a couple of serious relationships because my partners said they wanted children in the future but I didn't and it was unfair to both of us to be together.
I do think once you turn 18 you should have access to euthanasia because I am a strong believer in bodily autonomy, but you would have a break the very real stigma of suicide which I doubt will happen anytime soon.
Also doctors have a hard-on for keeping you alive no matter what. You could lose all your limbs and half of your brain in an accident but doctors will waste insane amounts of money to keep you alive just so they can say they "saved" you, it's grotesque.