Discussion At what point did humanity relegate some authority to imaginary construct to enact boundless paternalism WRT the RTD and bodily autonomy?

[TAW122]

This was an interesting idea that I pondered about from time to time. Throughout the history of humanity, even going far, far back to the beginning of humanity (thousands or even tens of thousands of years ago perhaps), I wondered, back when ancient humans were doing their own things, perhaps even the idea of CTB didn't even cross their minds, or if it did, there wasn't some over-arching authority that gets to dictate what an individual human did. Or even if it did, some humans were above and beyond it. Perhaps even some ancient humans actually were pro-choice, but of course their tribe or group of people died out throughout the passage of time.

The lack of a better title stems from the fact there is a character limit for the title, so I will elaborate on the title a bit more accurately. The title is actually framed as a question that refers to "when did humanity (in human history) either collectively or even some individual(s) decide to come up with some construct in society as well as give it unlimited (imagined) authority to be able to rule over and also have almost unchecked power (with little guardrails or checks and balances) with regards to decide on the fact that nobody has a right to die on their own terms? When did that pro-life construct start and if so, in what form? I know in the modern days it is in the field of Psychiatry and it's overreaching, paternalistic tenets that has a grip over society and it's members. Even the most powerful people are not truly immune to having another person (or even entity) albeit temporarily, from exercising paternalistic authority over them under the guise of 'mental health' or so. While it's true in the past that such similar systems existed, the main difference is that they aren't nearly as paternalistic and pervasive as they are today. In modern times, the CTB prevention and pro-life rhetoric is almost ubiquitous in just about every facet and fabric of society.

When did we start to become so paternalistic and even granting another faceless, unseen, imaginary construct that wields almost infinite power to overrule our own decisions when it comes to CTB? In the past, while there are various people who wield such power, it is not as prevalent and also in the past, certain groups of people or even powerful individuals were exempt from such paternalistic measures being imposed upon them. What are your thoughts on this and if anyone knows, feel free to give your thoughts on this. @Forever Sleep @Praestat_Mori

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's an interesting idea. I wonder who the first person who did it was. I wonder why they did it. I wonder what other people's reactions were.

We know attitudes to suicide vary in different eras/ cultures. The Romans were accepting of certain suicides but condemned others. I think they saw some as heroic- eg. so as not to be a burden or shame on the family, or as a demonstration of freedom and others as a desertion of duty- soldiers or slaves presumably.

I once saw on YouTube that the whole 'suicides go to hell' was in response to the large number of peasants offing themselves as a shortcut to heaven. Why stay and toil in the fields if there's a paradise waiting for them after death? So- the ruling classes had to put a stop to that because they were losing thrir workforce! I wish I could find the video again. I've searched several times.

I imagine a lot of the restrictions placed on suicide where from the ruling classes. And, religion- I would argue tends to work hand in hand with the ruling classes to keep people in line. It's debatably the ruling classes who either created them or at least, modified them to suit their own ends.

It's hard to really imagine any society accepting certain suicides though. I'm not sure there are any cultures where parents are particularly willing to give up their children willingly. That's the issue people, even now seem to focus on the most.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

@Forever Sleep already mentioned many interesting points. I would say before humans started to establish settlements (about 10000 years ago) suicide was probably not a thing at all. There's the fact that if too many of a group/clan kill themselves it's a big loss and can lead to more difficulties to survive - that's from an evolutionary point of view. If the early humans offed themselves the species would have never survived.

There's no clear point in history when society turned to be "pro-life" and for most of the history, we don't have records. We live in a relatively peaceful world. Not that there aren't any wars going on where people are confronted with violent deaths almost daily but throughout history life was rough, wars, armies conquered other countries to build empires and so on. People see death differently in such rough times.

Who's not going through terrible (psychological) hardship has a totally different view on death and for the majority of people on earth life is basically bearable/good as it seems. Even though we are pro-choice I'm pretty sure that we also wouldn't be happy if our parents or children (if we have them) offed themselves. That's just human.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

They have most people believing many lies. most people believe the lie that if you want to commit suicide then you are mentally ill. this is a lie for many reasons . one is that there is such a thing as rational suicide. also many have been suffering for years and know they don't want to or can't make it in this world have physical or other disabilities etc.

This lie alllows the making of suicide methods into crimes . they made someone helping you with suicide a crime,

If I or you were on a high bridge and about to jump. and there were others nearby. you know what will happen. people will try to get close to you to stop you from jumping. and they will even grab your body to stop you . that is assault and invasion of privacy . but most people think that assualter is a hero. this world is upside down. under any other circumstances grabbing someone and holding them is assualt . but they can hold you takle you and everyone will think them a hero,. why ? becauase they think i was mentally ill for wanting to kill myself. but that's not true at all .

That lie is based on another lie. that " life is good" . that is a lie because no one can say an objective reason why life is good. to me life is this brain i'm inprisoned in that can suffer long lasting constant unbearable pain. how is that good? what is worth that? who would sign up for that. why does everyone consider imposing that horror on another good? no one can say an objective reason why i have to want to live another minute .

Note here because anytime i say life is bad ,..some think i'm a 'promortalist" or "pro-death". i don't know how to explain this better but i really don't give a fuck what another bag of 30 trillion cells does , whether they want to live for a while is of no concern to me . what matters to me is this bag of 30 trillion cells i'm imprisoned in not suffering unbearable pain and getting to my suicide asap to get out of this abomination called life. i guess many try to put people in some kind of group or classify them . i think many have individual thoughts no one else has. like i said i don't care what someone else does in their life . how does that affect my problems ? it's none of my business . do i wish the laws were rescinded that make suicide booths , assisting in suicide , nembutal a crime ? yes but that is only so I me I me can kill myself ,

 

[TAW122]

I suppose one of the main motivations for this thread and ponderance of the topic is an idea that is loosely related to how the US as a country was born and how the The Framers or Founding Fathers of the US (birth of the US as a nation) created various documents and delegated power to something even above themselves, so when I put two and two together (different topics but the idea is the same - the delegation of some assumed/presumed authority to a faceless construct/imagined power), that was what led me to ponder about how paternalism and CTB prevention came about.

@Forever Sleep You made very good points about how people ended up delegating power to subjugate the masses and oftenly the ruling class in hopes to control the masses to do their bidding and enrich their lives. Religion itself is also another tool of governance throughout history and even before the separation of church and state (at an early point in history, religion held more power than the State - long before modern secularism). Your assessment made a lot of sense. I also agree that for the majority of society and just by society's existence itself, CTB is unlikely to become the norm or widely accepted, and yes parents of children do feel sorrow too if their child or offspring off themselves (which partly explains why there are people who wait until their parents or family are gone before they go through with it - or oftenly without dependents, children of their own). I would look to see and hope that world will be more accepting of assisted CTB or medical assistance in CTB for those with severe, yet non-terminal cases though. While in our current world, most countries with assisted CTB and RTD programs often only cater to those with narrow criteria: must be of sound mind, usually of old age, terminal illnesses, and/or severe suffering. Even those who are more liberal like Belgium and the Netherlands (perhaps even Canada in the recent years), still have a lot of hurdles to cross but I do think the next big expansion should be for those who are non-terminal but in severe suffering (life-long chronic condition and severe debility that gravely negatively impacts quality of life - ALS, quadriplegia, SCI, MS, dementia, to name a few).

@Praestat_Mori That's an interesting inference about human history. Yeah it seems like back in the ancient times, thousands of years ago or even earlier, humans had a hard enough time to survive that perhaps even the concept or idea of CTB is foreign even to the ancient humans of that time period. Yes, in modern times, we do live a fairly comfortable life when it comes to basic needs (depending on where one is in the world, but generally first world nations, developed nations, etc.) and that it is true that most humans haven't experienced what the ancient humans experienced so even the idea of leaving the world just seems out of place and wrong to them (mainly the normies and pro-lifers of course). Also, the last sentence made sense too as it brings up a part of the human experience, human nature.

@pthnrdnojvsc Excellent points and I like your analogy that if people did what the CTB preventionists did under normal and other circumstances (outside of saving a life or preventing CTB itself), it is indeed assault and battery, invasion of privacy, kidnapping (especially if the person is held against their will), and even extortion/robbery (being charged for services rendered during an unwanted medical stay, detainment), etc. It is hypocritical and disgusting how when it comes to mentally ill or under the guise of helping the mentally ill, these perpetrators and criminals are lauded as 'heroes'. I share the same sentiments too and that ultimately when I choose CTB it's not because it is a cry for help, but because I actually truly want to die and end my suffering on my own terms.