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Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
To preface this whole rant, I've had an eating disorder for more than half my life and I'm in my early-mid 20s. I've gone through the entire spectrum of eating disorder presentations, and been through multiple rounds of treatment that helped with my physical health but did nothing to address my mental health. No treatment centres will take me now because I have a chronic and treatment-resistant ED, but I'm medically stable and actually at a normal weight at the moment. So I don't qualify for outpatient or inpatient treatment. Please do not tell me to give treatment another chance, to seek therapy, etc. in order to address the mental aspect of my ED, because I've exhausted all my options. The best I can realistically do now is just manage my physical symptoms so that I can still work, go to school, etc.

For me, body dysmorphia has always been more than just thinking I look heavier than I actually am. Thinking I'm fat when I'm actually thin and fit is a gross oversimplification of the fuckery that goes on in my brain. It ruins literally every fucking aspect of my life, and is part of the reason I tried to CTB last week.

Whenever I see other people who are close to my height and weight, I always feel like I look about twice their size, and I sometimes literally feel nauseous when I see myself. I know it doesn't make sense though. I'm average height, at the lower end of the healthy weight range, and have a lot of muscle from doing sports. Other people who are my size look thin but still healthy. So I can't be the only person in the world who is fat at this size, right? You see how illogically my body dysmorphia makes me think? And knowing it's illogical just makes me feel worse because I can't control it.

My body dysmorphia also makes me think that I don't deserve to ever wear anything nice just for the sake of it; the only time I can do it is when I have to dress up for work. There is a voice in my head that says "you're too fat and ugly to wear something like this so don't bother" whenever I go shopping for clothes. It gets so overwhelming that sometimes I literally go home and cry after buying nothing for myself, and I'm a full-fledged adult. It's fucking embarrassing.

I was sexually abused by my dad from when I was in preschool until I was in my early teens. I feel disgusting whenever I wear any feminine-looking items because a voice in my head tells me that I'm dirty from being molested. Same with whenever I wear anything that flatters my body shape. When I do that, a voice in my head tells me that I deserved to be molested because I have the audacity to show off my body even though it's disgusting. So I hide myself in baggy pants, bulky leather jackets, oversized shirts, etc. unless I'm working at my side jobs.

When I'm at certain jobs, I sometimes have no choice but to wear a skimpy outfit and high heels. The only reason I can do that without a mental breakdown is because it's for the sake of earning money. For me, being a workaholic has been a coping mechanism for years. And I've only been able to justify taking care of my health and my appearance by knowing that it's directly related to my income.

I can't shake the pervasive sense of worthlessness that causes my body dysmorphia. I know that the root cause is probably me thinking I deserved to be mistreated by my parents, and punishing myself for it. But at this point I genuinely feel like I'm beyond help in that respect. People in real life will never understand, but I hope that there are people here who will. I don't really know where I'm going with this. I just feel desperately lonely with my struggles.
 
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qualityOV3Rquantity

qualityOV3Rquantity

Student
Jul 27, 2024
181
I never had an ED, but I can relate to the things you say about logically knowing something is untrue, but feeling like it is true anyway. I think most mental illness just comes down to that, a disconnect between logical thought and how we feel. You know you aren't fat or ugly, you know you aren't really dirty for being molested, and you know it isn't your fault. But your emotions tell you something different than your logical brain, and it seems like nothing can break through that barrier. Maybe there is a solution out there, or maybe for some of us, these things can only ever be managed and never cured. But it's so fucking hard to live with it, like running a race wearing a weighted jacket that no one else can see.
 
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Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
I never had an ED, but I can relate to the things you say about logically knowing something is untrue, but feeling like it is true anyway. I think most mental illness just comes down to that, a disconnect between logical thought and how we feel. You know you aren't fat or ugly, you know you aren't really dirty for being molested, and you know it isn't your fault. But your emotions tell you something different than your logical brain, and it seems like nothing can break through that barrier. Maybe there is a solution out there, or maybe for some of us, these things can only ever be managed and never cured. But it's so fucking hard to live with it, like running a race wearing a weighted jacket that no one else can see.
I've been told that the only option left for me at this point is to just accept the fact that I'm mentally ill but proceed to move on with my life anyways, after everything I tried did nothing for me. So I've been coping by basically working myself to death. It seems to work until it doesn't, and then I end up in the psych ward after a complete mental breakdown.
 
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qualityOV3Rquantity

qualityOV3Rquantity

Student
Jul 27, 2024
181
I've been told that the only option left for me at this point is to just accept the fact that I'm mentally ill but proceed to move on with my life anyways, after everything I tried did nothing for me. So I've been coping by basically working myself to death. It seems to work until it doesn't, and then I end up in the psych ward after a complete mental breakdown.
It's easy for someone to tell you that when they aren't the ones who have to live with a fucked-up brain. My job is ending and I'm trying to find a new one, but it seems like the only way I can motivate myself to do that is by telling myself 'just earn more money to leave to your siblings when you die.' I also discovered funerals are expensive as hell, so I want to make more money for my family to cover that.
 
Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
It's easy for someone to tell you that when they aren't the ones who have to live with a fucked-up brain. My job is ending and I'm trying to find a new one, but it seems like the only way I can motivate myself to do that is by telling myself 'just earn more money to leave to your siblings when you die.' I also discovered funerals are expensive as hell, so I want to make more money for my family to cover that.
I make pretty good money but I always feel like I don't deserve to spend any on myself so it's mostly been going into investments. If I don't end up CTB in the next few years, maybe I'll be able to buy a house.
 
C

CantDoIt

Elementalist
Jul 18, 2024
865
Hey I also struggle with BDD. Mine has to do with premature ageing which was self inflicted. I became anorexic at 17 and lost all body fat. I then regained the weight, which was about 30 lbs. Later, in college, I ate badly and lost about 20 lbs. Then, I became severely neglectful of my health and started to drink nothing but energy drinks several times a day. My face started dissolving at that point. Not only did I get severely underweight but I began to droop. I regained 30 lbs after being put inpatient at an eating disorder clinic and then I lost those 30 lbs over the course of the next several years. You can imagine how I look now. ):
I'm sorry you're going through this, BDD is literal hell and I cannot imagine explaining to people how awful it is. I missed out on a normal young adulthood with a youthful appearance because I couldn't just be normal by the time I was in college. Truly traumatized. If its any consolation I'm sure you look fine!
 
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Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
Hey I also struggle with BDD. Mine has to do with premature ageing which was self inflicted. I became anorexic at 17 and lost all body fat. I then regained the weight, which was about 30 lbs. Later, in college, I ate badly and lost about 20 lbs. Then, I became severely neglectful of my health and started to drink nothing but energy drinks several times a day. My face started dissolving at that point. Not only did I get severely underweight but I began to droop. I regained 30 lbs after being put inpatient at an eating disorder clinic and then I lost those 30 lbs over the course of the next several years. You can imagine how I look now. ):
I'm sorry you're going through this, BDD is literal hell and I cannot imagine explaining to people how awful it is. I missed out on a normal young adulthood with a youthful appearance because I couldn't just be normal by the time I was in college. Truly traumatized. If its any consolation I'm sure you look fine!
I objectively know I look fine but it just doesn't compute in my brain.

I was severely underweight until spring 2023, when I was threatened with inpatient treatment and at risk of losing all my jobs. I'm a blue collar worker and have multiple physically demanding side jobs, so I was just barely holding on.

I slowly gained weight on my own because the prospect of going broke and being forced to move back in with my abusive parents just terrified me too much. At the time I still thought I looked huge. Even though I could see the number on the scale as well as the measurements I got with my measuring tape, I didn't believe that I lost all that weight and for some reason I thought I was hallucinating all the weight loss. It was so freaky.

I don't know how things are going to go once I go back to school in 2 weeks. Getting sober is non-negotiable because I'll be living in dorms, but I'm scared that I'll relapse fully with my eating disorder.
 
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CantDoIt

Elementalist
Jul 18, 2024
865
I objectively know I look fine but it just doesn't compute in my brain.

I was severely underweight until spring 2023, when I was threatened with inpatient treatment and at risk of losing all my jobs. I'm a blue collar worker and have multiple physically demanding side jobs, so I was just barely holding on.

I slowly gained weight on my own because the prospect of going broke and being forced to move back in with my abusive parents just terrified me too much. At the time I still thought I looked huge. Even though I could see the number on the scale as well as the measurements I got with my measuring tape, I didn't believe that I lost all that weight and for some reason I thought I was hallucinating all the weight loss. It was so freaky.

I don't know how things are going to go once I go back to school in 2 weeks. Getting sober is non-negotiable because I'll be living in dorms, but I'm scared that I'll relapse fully with my eating disorder.
I know you'll be able to do it! Currently I don't consider myself to be ED fully but only because I don't restrict calories on purpose. However, I was taught that it's technically a life long struggle. I consider my undereating a manifestation of it...in a way... as I never used to be like that before.

The mind really plays tricks on you with these things I think. Like you said, you know you look fine...but it's not always about looking fine. BDD is so disruptive of the way that one perceives themselves. The way I compare myself to others is insane and makes me not want to go out at all.

But the way, I'm so sorry to hear you have abusive parents! I really really am holding out that you can get sober by then, although relapses are nothing to be ashamed of!
 
Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
I know you'll be able to do it! Currently I don't consider myself to be ED fully but only because I don't restrict calories on purpose. However, I was taught that it's technically a life long struggle. I consider my undereating a manifestation of it...in a way... as I never used to be like that before.

The mind really plays tricks on you with these things I think. Like you said, you know you look fine...but it's not always about looking fine. BDD is so disruptive of the way that one perceives themselves. The way I compare myself to others is insane and makes me not want to go out at all.

But the way, I'm so sorry to hear you have abusive parents! I really really am holding out that you can get sober by then, although relapses are nothing to be ashamed of!
My friend told me that I should consider actually applying for a part time job as a EMT once I'm back to school. I have a valid license but never worked in EMS (long story though) and found jobs that pay better than that anyways.

My driver's license was suspended recently because I ended up in the psych ward after a CTB attempt. It'll take me a while to get my driver's license back.

Drug testing is enforced for EMTs and paramedics in the town that I'm moving to. And if I'm not strong enough to do the daily tasks properly then I won't be able to keep the job. My friend's reasoning behind the suggestion was that it would be a way to stay accountable while getting paid, even if it's not a lot of money. But at this point, basically anything that I haven't tried yet is worth considering. Honestly I'm not 100% sure about whether I can do it, but I do think it's worth considering if I'm able to stay sober for the next few months first.

I'm going to be getting a decent of money from student loans and grants because I have a certified disability that also allows me to get academic accommodations (I'm autistic and have severe PTSD). I also have a good amount of savings from working for the past few years and living below my means. So I can kinda coast financially for a few years while I'm in school.
 
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HopeToStay

Member
May 31, 2024
75
Yes i have had mild to moderate BDD since i was 15.

I don't think i've ever been as distressed as some of the worst cases, but it's completely robbed me of a life. Instead of living i've spent the last 20 years obsessing about my appearance.

What a waste.
 
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Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
Yes i have had mild to moderate BDD since i was 15.

I don't think i've ever been as distressed as some of the worst cases, but it's completely robbed me of a life. Instead of living i've spent the last 20 years obsessing about my appearance.

What a waste.
My BDD largely stems from PTSD and adverse events during childhood. Complex PTSD absolutely ruined my life. I've lost so many opportunities in life because of mental illness.
 
777puppy777

777puppy777

Scizoaffective, CPTSD
Aug 21, 2024
23
I feel you 1000% when you say you look after your health for the sake of your job. I'm a bit of a workaholic myself though I don't often realize it. But it is hell, when I'm not working I'm literally just rotting and not taking care of myself. I'm sorry you're going through this.
 
willitpass

willitpass

Don’t try to offer me help, I’ve tried everything
Mar 10, 2020
2,953
Body dysmorphia really is awful. Mine goes either end of the spectrum. One second I think I'm a stick the next I think I look obese. In reality I know I'm a very normal weight for my size, but I genuinely could not tell you what I look like. Shopping for clothes is hell because I think I look so different than I do that I always guess completely wrong on the size, either too small or too big. I also only allow myself to wear clothes based on how I'm feeling in the morning. If I feel fat I tell myself I haven't earned the right to wear my smaller clothes that actually fit and I force myself to wear clothes so oversized I look ridiculous. The facial dysmorphia is also incredibly upsetting as I often don't recognize pictures of myself or my reflection in the mirror. I would never wish anorexia on my worst enemy.

I'm sorry you're struggling. I know how awful eating disorders and body dysmorphia are. I'm sorry you ran out of treatment options. It's a terrible place to be.
 
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Alessa

Alessa

Experienced
Nov 4, 2019
212
Body Dysmorphia ruined my life... No matter how good I looked in the past, I couldnt see it. I always saw a monster in the mirror and still do now.
 
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fatladysings

Member
Aug 23, 2024
86
I used to have pretty severe BDD and I was anorexic for six months aged about 16 (I'm 51 now). The BDD was when I was aged around 16 until I was about 35. What happened was that I developed psychosis and basically my priorities changed and I just let go of the BDD as my life was taken over completely by psychosis.

The BDD manifested as me thinking I was too ugly to go out of the house without makeup on. I would have to spend an hour a day putting makeup on and couldn't let anyone see me without it.

These days I'm dealing with psychosis and no longer care what I look like so I go out of the house without makeup all the time although I do think I'm pretty ugly without makeup but I just don't care any more.

It's one of the few joys of getting older, you care less about what people think of you.

OP - sorry to hear you are feeling desperately lonely. I just wanted to tell you about my experiences to show you that it is possible to recover from BDD and EDs. I'm sorry to hear you tried to ctb. Your life must be very difficult. I hope it helps you to read through all the replies you have got so that you realise you are not alone.
 
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yellowjester

yellowjester

Specialist
Jun 2, 2024
337
When did you realize it was irrational to feel this way? Did it come through therapy or did you reach that conclusion by yourself? (Question is for anyone with body dysmorphia, not just OP)
 
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Kadaver

Kadaver

let death be kinder than man
Aug 11, 2023
128
I'm not sure if I have body dysmorphia, but I do have gender dysphoria and I relate to struggles regarding my appearance. I barely leave the house and when the time comes that I should (like gong to the store with my family or other errands) I find that I can't. The idea of being perceived makes me want to blow my brains out. The idea of just existing around people while I look the way I do makes me sick. And the idea of being this way forever makes me feel like life truly is worthless…
 
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GuessWhosBack

GuessWhosBack

The sun rises to insult me.
Jul 15, 2024
465
When did you realize it was irrational to feel this way? Did it come through therapy or did you reach that conclusion by yourself? (Question is for anyone with body dysmorphia, not just OP)
I have had symptoms of BDD since childhood, now I'm in my mid 20s. Everyone I know considers me to be a decently attractive man, men and women included. I am tall and lean. A lot of friends irl who watch anime have likened me to Escanor but I'm not blonde. For me it's not about rationality or comparing with others. It is about how my brain reacts when I see myself in any situation.

Despite being considered good looking:
  • If I see my reflection, my mood goes to shit in a split second and stays there. For this reason I use matte monitors only.
  • If I see my photos, my mood goes to shit in a split second and stays there.
  • I didn't even pick up my graduation photos and recording.
  • If I give you my full name and country you will literally never find a single photo of me online.
In my experience therapy for BDD did diddly squat. I have been nothing but honest with therapists about my BDD and all I got in return was the usual platitudes. I think it's a severe subtype of OCD that is focused on self perception. I don't think there's a cure. People with BDD have one of the highest self-deletion rates across all mental illnesses, surpassing even schizophrenia.

I have tried several antidepressants and mood stabilizers and my brain resisted all of them. Literally nothing changed except they made me fatter and caused me to lose muscle. The day I stopped them I was back to hitting the weights like a maniac.
 
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lizzywizzy09

Arcanist
May 11, 2024
463
Is it body dysmorphia if the flaws aren't imagined?

I'd like to return this body and exchange it for a new one, please.
 
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GuessWhosBack

GuessWhosBack

The sun rises to insult me.
Jul 15, 2024
465
Is it body dysmorphia if the flaws aren't imagined?

I'd like to return this body and exchange it for a new one, please.
It depends on how much bandwidth your perceived flaws occupy, whether they be there or not and regardless of whether people notice them. I've gone to several surgeons and they could literally not see what I was seeing. The only time a surgeon agreed was for a nosejob since it was broken due to physical abuse.
 
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lizzywizzy09

Arcanist
May 11, 2024
463
It depends on how much bandwidth your perceived flaws occupy, whether they be there or not and regardless of whether people notice them. I've gone to several surgeons and they could literally not see what I was seeing. The only time a surgeon agreed was for a nosejob since it was broken due to physical abuse.
All of it. It takes up all my bandwidth. I'm so fucked.
 
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Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
I will respond properly to everyone's comments but not right now. I went to the hospital and I'm almost certain that it's a Mallory-Weiss tear because I've been through this scenario before. I gotta find a time when I can actually sit down and really think about what I'm saying before I reply.
 
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haphazardly

haphazardly

New Member
Aug 25, 2024
1
Whenever I see other people who are close to my height and weight, I always feel like I look about twice their size, and I sometimes literally feel nauseous when I see myself. I know it doesn't make sense though. I'm average height, at the lower end of the healthy weight range, and have a lot of muscle from doing sports. Other people who are my size look thin but still healthy. So I can't be the only person in the world who is fat at this size, right? You see how illogically my body dysmorphia makes me think? And knowing it's illogical just makes me feel worse because I can't control it.

My body dysmorphia also makes me think that I don't deserve to ever wear anything nice just for the sake of it; the only time I can do it is when I have to dress up for work. There is a voice in my head that says "you're too fat and ugly to wear something like this so don't bother" whenever I go shopping for clothes. It gets so overwhelming that sometimes I literally go home and cry after buying nothing for myself, and I'm a full-fledged adult. It's fucking embarrassing.
god it's almost as if i wrote this. i bother with picking nice clothes for myself but always end up returning stuff and cancelling orders for things that i will never look good enough to wear. no one cares how i look as much as i do and it's destroying me.
staring strangers down comparing myself to them makes me feel so disgusting for fueling my body dysmorphia at their cost (even if they're unaware) as well as for being bigger than them according to my brain. i'm aware it's bad and illogical, i can very much relate.
it's all so, so lonely and personal. you hate these thoughts and behaviors yet they are all you know, they take over everything, and they never leave too.
nevertheless i hope one day you'll be able to look at yourself without having a war in your head, feeling content with how you look. remember that you are not alone 9BCCA2FF 8D05 44D5 922E 4C01316C02AB
 
Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
Body dysmorphia really is awful. Mine goes either end of the spectrum. One second I think I'm a stick the next I think I look obese. In reality I know I'm a very normal weight for my size, but I genuinely could not tell you what I look like. Shopping for clothes is hell because I think I look so different than I do that I always guess completely wrong on the size, either too small or too big. I also only allow myself to wear clothes based on how I'm feeling in the morning. If I feel fat I tell myself I haven't earned the right to wear my smaller clothes that actually fit and I force myself to wear clothes so oversized I look ridiculous. The facial dysmorphia is also incredibly upsetting as I often don't recognize pictures of myself or my reflection in the mirror. I would never wish anorexia on my worst enemy.

I'm sorry you're struggling. I know how awful eating disorders and body dysmorphia are. I'm sorry you ran out of treatment options. It's a terrible place to be.
I apologize for taking so long to write a proper response.

Facial dysmorphia is terrifying, honestly. I've had 2 major plastic surgeries and sometimes I literally have nightmares about reverting back to how I originally looked. I'm not perfect but I objectively know that I'm conventionally good-looking. I've been to consultations with surgeons where they told me that my perceived flaws are all in my head and that any further surgery would make my features not fit together anymore. I work as a model alongside my day job and barely recognize myself in any pictures that were taken of me. It's bewildering.

For me, my body dysmorphia manifests as me thinking I'm much bigger than my actual size, but not the other way around. I imagine it would be even more confusing for the dysmorphia to go both ways instead of only in 1 direction.
 
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Iris Blue

Iris Blue

-ˋˏ ༻❁༺ ˎˊ-
Oct 23, 2023
226
I'm so sorry you had and are still going through so much. I feel like I can relate to you in a couple of ways, before about a year ago I've always been a bit heavier than what my normal weight should be. Most of the reason was from all of the antidepressants I was on and all of the side effects from it. After I got off of Zoloft I lost a decent amount of weight, more than I had in years. And I loved it. I never was confident in my body but I think when I stared to lose weight I just felt better. More in a mental state than health wise. Then I guess things started to go downhill from there. It first began with me being more aware of what I was eating here and there. But then calorie counting, food journals, multiple scale weighting's per day, constantly looking in the mirror (even though I usually avoid them at all times) calorie deficit dieting and once in a while purges became out of hand. I guess I'm still in denial, sure I know what I'm doing isn't the best but I feel like I can't stop now. I feel like I can keep going lower. I started taking green tea pills to feel more full and also some water pills. I even went cold turkey on my Seroquel because I read it also is a cause of weight gain (there are a few other reasons why I stopped but that was the main one. Whenever I look for food or go out to eat I refuse to go anywhere that doesn't have a nutrition menu and cut so many things out I used to enjoy. I don't exactly know why I started doing these things and now it is an obsession. The thing that made me want to start is me not wanting to "disgust the mortician with my overweight body when I ctb within this year" no joke. Sorry about the bummer post. I also wish I had someone to talk to about it but I can't and I feel alone and sometime confused. My best friend knows a bit about it but not the severity of it. I also felt like I could relate a lot to how you mentioned how you tend to compare yourself to others too.

Although my struggles only started somewhat recently, I can't imagine having to go through with it for more than half my life and how exhausting it must be. And also I am sincerely sorry about what happened with your dad. That is absolutely awful and I'm sure you've heard it many times before but I also just want to say, what happened to you is not your fault. And I can't even begin to imagine how much that affected you and still does. You are not dirty for wanting to wear something other than oversized and baggy clothes. You deserve to wear what you want to. Of course I completely understand it is much easier said than done and I don't know exactly the thoughts that go on through your mind around it and what I'm saying might not mean much or anything. And I apologize if what I said wasn't the right thing I promise it all comes from good intentions. Anyways, I wish I could give you a hug I'm sorry life is shitty and I hope they can get better ♥️
 
Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
When did you realize it was irrational to feel this way? Did it come through therapy or did you reach that conclusion by yourself? (Question is for anyone with body dysmorphia, not just OP)
When I was like 15. I lost around 20 pounds in less than 6 months and I legit thought I was delusional and imagining all the weight loss. My measurements were different and I looked obviously different in pictures but for some reason I thought I was getting even fatter. It was absolutely bewildering.
 
Lady Laudanum

Lady Laudanum

Here for a bad time, not a long time
May 9, 2024
812
I have had symptoms of BDD since childhood, now I'm in my mid 20s. Everyone I know considers me to be a decently attractive man, men and women included. I am tall and lean. A lot of friends irl who watch anime have likened me to Escanor but I'm not blonde. For me it's not about rationality or comparing with others. It is about how my brain reacts when I see myself in any situation.

Despite being considered good looking:
  • If I see my reflection, my mood goes to shit in a split second and stays there. For this reason I use matte monitors only.
  • If I see my photos, my mood goes to shit in a split second and stays there.
  • I didn't even pick up my graduation photos and recording.
  • If I give you my full name and country you will literally never find a single photo of me online.
In my experience therapy for BDD did diddly squat. I have been nothing but honest with therapists about my BDD and all I got in return was the usual platitudes. I think it's a severe subtype of OCD that is focused on self perception. I don't think there's a cure. People with BDD have one of the highest self-deletion rates across all mental illnesses, surpassing even schizophrenia.

I have tried several antidepressants and mood stabilizers and my brain resisted all of them. Literally nothing changed except they made me fatter and caused me to lose muscle. The day I stopped them I was back to hitting the weights like a maniac.
People who say stuff like "well you're good-looking and/or have a nice physique so you have nothing to worry about" have literally no idea bro.

Therapy for BDD only made matters worse for me. It didn't make me feel good about my body and only made me ashamed of myself for being "delusional." Medication did nothing either. Fuck olanzapine in particular.
 
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