Venting Christians who say suicide is a sin, because "thou shalt not kill", better be against the death penalty and all military then also

[KillingPain267]

In other words, they must oppose all form of killing, and believe in pacifism, that means even be against soldiers killing in battlefields and condemn them as murderous sinners.

I say this as a Christian. There is no such thing as a follower of Christ who joins the military in war.

But most Christians don't even follow what their Christ said in the Scriptures. It's much easier listening to a pastor, philosopher or politician than actually follow Christ's radical teachings. And then these people who support war and the death penalty will come and tell me that I'm a sinner if I kill myself because "thou shalt not kill". Lol.

 

[qualityOV3Rquantity]

I respectfully disagree. The general interpretation of this commandment by most Christian denominations is that 'thou shall not kill' means 'thou shall not murder' - killing unjustly. Not all killing is killing unjustly. If offensive wars of conquest were sanctioned by God for the Israelites, then defensive wars certainly can be for Christians today. I personally don't 'support war' unless that war is a defensive one by a party that has been the victim of aggression, basically what the Catholic Church calls 'Just War Theory'.

Some of my ancestors were part of a Christian denomination that does promote strict pacifism, but they still fought when their country conscripted them, because to decline would have meant going to a concentration camp. I certainly can't judge them for that.

 

[KillingPain267]

I respectfully disagree. The general interpretation of this commandment by most Christian denominations is that 'thou shall not kill' means 'thou shall not murder' - killing unjustly. Not all killing is killing unjustly. If offensive wars of conquest were sanctioned by God for the Israelites, then defensive wars certainly can be for Christians today. I personally don't 'support war' unless that war is a defensive one by a party that has been the victim of aggression, basically what the Catholic Church calls 'Just War Theory'.

Some of my ancestors were part of a Christian denomination that does promote strict pacifism, but they still fought when their country conscripted them, because to decline would have meant going to a concentration camp. I certainly can't judge them for that.

God ordered direct offensive holy war for Israel. Genocide in fact. But that is obviously not an example to follow for Christians today because God is not speaking directly to us except for the commandments from Jesus. Jesus or the apostles never commanded us to join in war or any sort of violent force. Christians who think that might as well convert to Old Testament Judaism.

Jesus and many of the apostles went to be executed on a cross just for preaching words, how much more should we not be willing to go to prison when forced to kill others. If I was forced to kill others I would kill myself first in protest. I never want the blood on my hands of some innocent guy who was forced to join the army just because I'm too chicken to go to prison. One side of my family was forced to fight for Hitler and the other side was attacked by Hitler. It's really ridiculous when you think about it.

 

[Abbadab]

The death penalty results in plenty of innocents being put to death though, which Christians should be horrified by.

One of the most scarily vindictive and embittered people I ever knew was a ex-friend who was a Christian woman. She was one of those people obsessed with true crime and incredibly pro-death penalty. She also claimed to be a leftist but didn't care in the least about how the genre perpetuated racism, conspiracy theories, and harm to the victims and their families. She was also obsessed with how dangerous and evil men supposedly are. She wanted to get a double mastectomy to give men the middle finger.

We would have conversations about how punitive criminal justice systems ultimately exacerbate crime instead of helping. But she always went back to obsessing over how evil people are and how much she would delight in them getting their comeuppance.

I don't miss her.

 

[KillingPain267]

The death penalty results in plenty of innocents being put to death though, which Christians should be horrified by.

One of the most scarily vindictive and embittered people I ever knew was a ex-friend who was a Christian woman. She was one of those people obsessed with true crime and incredibly pro-death penalty. She also claimed to be a leftist but didn't care in the least about how the genre perpetuated racism, conspiracy theories, and harm to the victims and their families. She was also obsessed with how dangerous and evil men supposedly are. She wanted to get a double mastectomy to give men the middle finger.

We would have conversations about how punitive criminal justice systems ultimately exacerbate crime instead of helping. But she always went back to obsessing over how evil people are and how much she would delight in them getting their comeuppance.

I don't miss her.

Let me guess, she was also staunchly anti-suicide?

 

[Abbadab]

Let me guess, she was also staunchly anti-suicide?

Lol she was actually weirdly ok with it. After 10 years of being friends I finally told her I'd been suicidal the whole time and was working on buying SN. She was really understanding and accepting. In fact, she was so accepting to the point where despite knowing that she aggressively enabled another friend in treating me like absolute shit

I cut them off and had the happiest year of my life up until the past two weeks :p

 

[Wonhun]

just saying, there is so much killing in the christian bible and yahweh itself is a tribal war god. It seems he is cool with that.
recommend check this out

Christian itself is fond with suicide, but they seems to be okay with that if it is somehow marketed religiously correct.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Not that I know much about the bible but- how do you interpret the story of Samson? Who supposedly received powers from God to kill not only himself but, thousands of Philistines. I would argue that makes him a suicide bomber- sanctioned by God. How else could you interpret it other than- under the right circumstances, God supports murder, suicide plots?

Personally speaking- does that mean you rule out suicide methods that could harm or kill others? So- avoiding public methods I imagine to be on the safe side? I'd prefer to do that also.

 

[KillingPain267]

Lol she was actually weirdly ok with it.

Lol, weirdly consistent. I respect anyone who takes their philosophical worldview to its logical conclusion and applies it consistently.

 

[littleadonis]

There is no such thing as a follower of Christ who joins the military in war.

Who exactly is supposed to defend christian nations then? The heathens?

 

[KillingPain267]

Not that I know much about the bible but- how do you interpret the story of Samson? Who supposedly received powers from God to kill not only himself but, thousands of Philistines.

I interpret it within its context. It was war. Samson was a warlord and judge risen to power after the Philistines had invaded Israel. How do you interpret the Philistines attacking? How do you interpret Ukrainian soldiers defeating Russian invaders? How do you interpret US soldiers bombing Nazi German towns?

You can see that originally God created a world without sin and death. From Genesis 3 to 6 humans become violent and God condemns violence and even protects Cain the first murderer from being avenged. That didn't work, so after Noah's flood, God sort of accepts that humans are violent but caps their vengefulness with head for head, the death penalty, thus banning intergenerational family feuds at least. Then God narrowed his focus down to one nation, Israel. Of course that meant military and laws to control the population and protect them from other nations were allowed. That failed too, humans failing even to just keep the law of Moses, which, if you study judicial systems back then, it was far more progressive than Babylonian laws for example. Then came Jesus, and ended the era of nationalism and the law, where the kingdom of God is now spiritual, not national. Jerusalem is no longer the capital of worship. Matthew 21:43: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." Luke 17:21: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." John 4:21: "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father." Jesus came to restore the paradise God created originally, where humans were not supposed to do violence against each other, before Cain (and ultimately in the resurrection and the new earth after the second coming where all sin, pain, sorrow, violence and death will forever be done for all eternity). While waiting for the second coming and resurrection, Christians are not supposed to fight political wars for a physical nation anymore while in this life. We have now churches for community instead of nations, and non-violent pastors for leaders instead of warlords, kings and judges. Old Testament Israel kingdom was a mere footnote in God's plan. Confusion arises when Christians mix Mosaic laws or Old Testament stories with Jesus' commandments about the spiritual kingdom of God which is now (with church communities, and churches are never commanded to perform violence or meddle in politics). It would be like imagine an American expat in China committing a crime but demanding to be judged according to American law. Or an American white man in 2024 demanding his black neighbor be made a slave by the court by citing laws from the 1700s. It would be ridiculous. Paul explained how the Old Testament is there for Christians showing how NOT to be a follower of God. 1 Corinthians 10:11: "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." Hebrews 7:22: "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." Hebrews 8:6: "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises." Jesus said certain things in the mosaic law were only there as permission, not because it was ideal. Mark 10:5: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept."

Who exactly is supposed to defend christian nations then? The heathens?

There is no such thing as a Christian nation.

just saying, there is so much killing in the christian bible and yahweh itself is a tribal war god. It seems he is cool with that.
recommend check this out

Christian itself is fond with suicide, but they seems to be okay with that if it is somehow marketed religiously correct.

Yes, a tribal war God back then. But since Jesus came, there is no more physical tribe or nation or kingdom with laws to defend. Matthew 21:43: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." That "nation" is spiritual consisting of all believers, not of political institutions. Luke 17:21: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." John 4:21: "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father."

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Killing yourself is much worse than killing others because you have no chance for confession. In former times people who wanted to die sometimes committed a crime, even murder in order to be executed. This way they got the service of a scilled hangman and the full spiritual support.

If somebody provoces his execution he commits suicide, this exactly what Jesus did.

 

[mangotango0249]

the more i think about the logical fallacy of Bible and suicide, the less I am feared lmao. Christians are the most devious, selfish and lying fuckers I've known in my entire life up including my christian uncle who raped me when I was 11. If God is real he has some explanations to provide because WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH HUMANS?

 

[KillingPain267]

Killing yourself is much worse than killing others because you have no chance for confession. In former times people who wanted to die sometimes committed a crime, even murder in order to be executed. This way they got the service of a scilled hangman and the full spiritual support.

If somebody provoces his execution he commits suicide, this exactly what Jesus did.

The Bible never taught any of this nonsense. It started with St. Augustine, not the Scriptures. Killing others is much worse than killing yourself. The fact that people used others to kill themselves showed what kind of stupid logic this idea lead to.

the more i think about the logical fallacy of Bible and suicide, the less I am feared lmao. Christians are the most devious, selfish and lying fuckers I've known in my entire life up including my christian uncle who raped me when I was 11. If God is real he has some explanations to provide because WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH HUMANS?

Yes, all humans are totally depraved. In fact, we all deserve to be wiped out again in another global flood.

 

[Wonhun]

I interpret it within its context. It was war. Samson was a warlord and judge risen to power after the Philistines had invaded Israel. How do you interpret the Philistines attacking? How do you interpret Ukrainian soldiers defeating Russian invaders? How do you interpret US soldiers bombing Nazi German towns?

You can see that originally God created a world without sin and death. From Genesis 3 to 6 humans become violent and God condemns violence and even protects Cain the first murderer from being avenged. That didn't work, so after Noah's flood, God sort of accepts that humans are violent but caps their vengefulness with head for head, the death penalty, thus banning intergenerational family feuds at least. Then God narrowed his focus down to one nation, Israel. Of course that meant military and laws to control the population and protect them from other nations were allowed. That failed too, humans failing even to just keep the law of Moses, which, if you study judicial systems back then, it was far more progressive than Babylonian laws for example. Then came Jesus, and ended the era of nationalism and the law, where the kingdom of God is now spiritual, not national. Jerusalem is no longer the capital of worship. Matthew 21:43: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." Luke 17:21: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." John 4:21: "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father." Jesus came to restore the paradise God created originally, where humans were not supposed to do violence against each other, before Cain (and ultimately in the resurrection and the new earth after the second coming where all sin, pain, sorrow, violence and death will forever be done for all eternity). While waiting for the second coming and resurrection, Christians are not supposed to fight political wars for a physical nation anymore while in this life. We have now churches for community instead of nations, and non-violent pastors for leaders instead of warlords, kings and judges. Old Testament Israel kingdom was a mere footnote in God's plan. Confusion arises when Christians mix Mosaic laws or Old Testament stories with Jesus' commandments about the spiritual kingdom of God which is now (with church communities, and churches are never commanded to perform violence or meddle in politics). It would be like imagine an American expat in China committing a crime but demanding to be judged according to American law. Or an American white man in 2024 demanding his black neighbor be made a slave by the court by citing laws from the 1700s. It would be ridiculous. Paul explained how the Old Testament is there for Christians showing how NOT to be a follower of God. 1 Corinthians 10:11: "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." Hebrews 7:22: "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." Hebrews 8:6: "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises." Jesus said certain things in the mosaic law were only there as permission, not because it was ideal. Mark 10:5: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept."

There is no such thing as a Christian nation.

Yes, a tribal war God back then. But since Jesus came, there is no more physical tribe or nation or kingdom with laws to defend. Matthew 21:43: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." That "nation" is spiritual consisting of all believers, not of political institutions. Luke 17:21: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." John 4:21: "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father."

Nope, christian always have their bias lens and so blind to see their ironic and hypocrisy.
War is war, don't justice for your genocide or promoted suicide for martyrdom for whatever reason like a fascist like us vs them. Your bible said everyone is wicked and your book tell story about an unjust god show favouritism to a lunatic who is willing to sacrifice his son to do some blood magic like every nearby nation did. Have you wonder what is the similarity and difference between the Isrealite and their rival nation according to their story? They are the good guy because they pick the right god, not a moral god, who lay 613 commendmant about ritualistic conduct instead of moral right on human, end child abuse, slavery, racisism and misogyny (surprise surprise, it is not ended in new testament). Instead they promote and execute their witchcraft and blood magic on solving civilian conflict (drink mysterious potion to deliver miscarriage for cheating, inexplicable hatred on foreskin and menstruation fluid, whoever run fast enough to avoid vengeance, forcing victim to marry their rapist etc). No wonder why bible said fear is the beginning of the wisdom, which means don't mess with the wrong people who have power and will fuck you up if you upset them.

Have you wonder its so called biblical god character is drastically different from what he actually does. Check out this video for all of his crime and hypocrisy nonsense from his ACTION.
All in all, your bible said your god want people to be good. How many times he actually do the exactly opposite? Who create evil (Isaiah 45:7), sent the evil (Judges 9:23) and deceivable spirit (1 Samuel 16:14), harden one heart (Exodus 8:15), delibrately des nothing to remove sin and improve people with his standard (2 Corinthians 12) to torment people to do the bad things so the only point is to let him brag about how he is a tribal war god? And it is in YOUR OWN BOOK. Look at King David, where your god gives him three option for his punishment and he approved the option leaves him affected the least but the most to others (2 Samuel 24:11-15).

Don't even play around with the game, OH, BUT DAT WAS OLD TESTAMENT, your god is immutable (Malachi 3:6), your belief holds still but only got covered up with some blood magic (Matthew 5:17). Besides, because there is a new law that sounds more lovely and modern, it becomes the true religion as it fits your "self loving", JESUS DIE FOR YOUR SIN (well, I guess Jesus have a bpd issue to use self harm to showcase his love to humanity) narrative? You know all of the things written in YOUR BOOK holds the same idea and philosophy right? Not to mention its everlasting confusion and contradiction, failed prophecy and promises? You believe Jesus can turn people to new creation, show me the case that people actually did not ever "sin" no more (John 8:11) from its non sense law? Neither do we see it even work in action, people pray many times they are "tempted" but eventually they will fall into that (). Not to mention most of the thing is intrisincially engraved in our biology. You said your god created a world without "sin" and without "death", but the symbiotic relationships creation already break the so called "sin". Organism do steal, murder, eat all they can, greed on territory and resources, avoid the hard way and be strategic and efficient, perform homosexuallity and gender transition, have sexual urge. Adam and Eve did not die after eating the forbidden fruit, destroy and torture humanity again and again for your satisfaction on showcase your power and "glory". Entire world have to intrinsically suffer eternally because your flawed design and self-absorbed narcissitic ego, no one force you to create this flawed world but you still choose to create it and let it run which every single things you do is able to trigger him to wreak havoc for entire world if without his nonsense blood magic sacrificed himself to himself to save people from himself. Surprise surprise, his hand is not tie and he can do whatever he "wants" ().

BUT YOU CANT DISPROVE JESUS DID NOT RAISE FROM THE DEAD! So your believe because there is an urban mystery on one man's disappearance, All of these non sense becomes the truth without any logical connection? You can disprove your own religion by reading your OWN BOOK. But like every religion, it stops people to think about all of its non sense and contradiction by throwing mumble jumble bullshit like you can't interpret well without the "holy spirit", god work in MyStErIoUs way and accept as blind faith.