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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,468
... so I don't get the point in waiting for "nature" to slowly kill you like a vicious animal.

Look at this study:


Some highlights:

"In 1963, when Hinton looked at deaths in general wards, he found widespread distress. Thirty-four years later the SUPPORT study in the USA yielded very similar findings: despite great advances in palliative care in the intervening period, many dying patients were still troubled by pain and other symptoms."

For elderly people "The 'dying trajectory' may last longer, and awareness may be clouded by cognitive dysfunction. Exton-Smith found that 41% of the elderly patients in his study of dying people were delirious at the time of death."

"Sherwin Nuland, an American surgeon, has made the point that death in old age is often a protracted affair, rather than a clear-cut process that can allow patients and those bereaved to go through the classic stages." "He quotes an elderly patient as saying 'Death keeps taking little bits of me'. Her physician commented: 'She saw that with each attack of dizziness or fainting or confusion she became a little older, a little weaker and a little more tired. She knew that for ten years or more, she had been moving step by step towards the grave.'"

"Nuland quotes Osler as saying: 'These people take as long to die as they did to grow up.'"

AND HERE IS THE WORST:

"Nuland also observed that fewer than one in five people can have a peaceful end"

So fewer than 20% have a peaceful death of "normal" cause!

So us people in this forum are not much different. We are all fighting SI and wanna minimize pain just the same. The methods we discuss and try out, and debate, and study for crietria such as peacefulness, certainty and painlessness, guess what, over 80% of all those pro-lifers WILL ALSO face possible pain, protractedness, messiness, fear, SI, uncertainty and the possibility to get 10 more years ALMOST dying, but then surviving in worse conditions too as a wrinkled vegetable. The pro-lifers live in denial of reality. It should be their websites banned and restricted, for spreading harmful lies that only hide the brutality, so people are not prepared.

So I don't get it: why not let us have N or something less messy and slow and get it over with, once you have done all you feel you need and can do in this world? Most of us will have a drawn out death process anyway. But noooooo, we gotta hang to each and every breath, no matter how much it stinks and hurts, only for it to end anyway in often brutal ways.

Nature and its laws practice (brutal) euthanasia, plain and simple. Hitler did it to only some genetically diseased people and ethnic minorities, but Nature, she doth it to EVERYONE!
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
39,131
It's criminal to me how access to Nembutal isn't a human right, I'd always prefer to peacefully not exist than to suffer so unnecessarily for decades just to die in agony from old age. For me the hell that is old age is something best avoided no matter what, it terrifies me how a human can exist for so long and feel such immense agony, more than anything I wish I never existed, I despise this horrific anti-suicide society, all that those pro-life people ever cause is way more harm and suffering.
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,468
It's criminal to me how access to Nembutal isn't a human right, I'd always prefer to peacefully not exist than to suffer so unnecessarily for decades just to die in agony from old age. For me the hell that is old age is something best avoided no matter what, it terrifies me how a human can exist for so long and feel such immense agony, more than anything I wish I never existed, I despise this horrific anti-suicide society, all that those pro-life people ever cause is way more harm and suffering.
Yes, and ironically, these pro-lifers will go through the same SI we struggle to overcome here. Then they will wish for N themselves one day, when dyspnea or worse strikes more and more.
 
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DesperateOne

DesperateOne

Specialist
May 25, 2023
318
This is what I was thinking a few days ago. People usually see death by old age in a romanticized movie form where the person slowly closes their eyes and peacefully drifts to eternal sleep, while being surrounded by family members. The reality seems to be much darker. A lot of people die completely alone, or like you've pointed out with a disease eating them alive.

A lot of older people also get a bunch of mental problems like dementia or Alzheimers which means they are not only dying physically, but mentally as well. Then you have people like my great grandma passing away by essentially choking to death. Water filled her lungs, and while the doctor of course gave her medicine and tried pumping the water out, she probably suffered greatly till the very end. The worst part? Even if she asked to make it quick, the doctor wouldn't allow it.

Dying of old age is no fun and I don't want to experience any of it.
 
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D

Deleted member 8119

Warlock
Feb 6, 2024
765
If you reaearch the population of a ward, I don't think healthy people will came out of it, lol.

Aging can suck, but it isn't accompained by dementia that frequently. Even if everyone had chronic pain and anxiefy for 10 years before dying, it's still better than being anxious all my life figuring out a method. And there's still a chance I won't go through any of that. Even the most peaceful method has the mental factor of being ridden with huge anxiety, something I reject to feel.

Aging can also made better by proper care of the body, and medicine is always advancing. I'd still say it's better for the normal person to just wait. There are more elders that don't fully deteriorate before dying that you think.

This said, if future travel turns out to be true, first thing I'm doing is getting a robotic body to stop aging, lol.
 
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KuriGohan&Kamehameha

KuriGohan&Kamehameha

想死不能 - 想活不能
Nov 23, 2020
1,744
The worst part? Even if she asked to make it quick, the doctor wouldn't allow it.
What happened to your great grandma is nightmarish and cruel, I'm so sorry.

I'm convinced that many doctors, blind to their hubris, inflict unnecessary pain for no reason other than following outdated protocols or their own views of what they believe is right rather than actually listening to what the patient sitting in front of them wants.

The other day I (regretfully) watched a channel 4 documentary about the current state of A&E care and it was extremely shocking. There was raw footage of a woman howling in pain in a hallway, crying out in pain and begging for relief. The journalist posing as a healthcare worker for the documentary by getting hired as a trainee nurse assistant was the only one who offered her any compassion. He kept begging nurses and other staff to help the woman/give her pain relief and they ignored him over and over.

There was another scene in that documentary where at a staff meeting they are reading out warnings they've been given for improper care, and they're all sitting blank faced while a woman describes how a dead man was left in a cubicle or hallway wearing an oxygen mask for ages. Another woman died of septic shock because they didn't attempt to treat her for 6 hours. Sure they are understaffed, but anyone who would stand by and allow someone to go without pain relief or care for 6 hours while they are dying with sepsis is a shitty human being in my opinion. I have no sympathy for these healthcare workers when they consistently ignore people's pain and suffering.

Dying doesn't have to be as grotesque as it is now, the medical industry makes conscious decisions daily to ration care for people who do want to live to the point where they decline slowly over time die a prolonged, painful death. Then for those who are in the process of dying naturally or who want to if their own voilition, medical staff and policy makers certainly don't make it painless for them. It is disgusting how many terminally ill elderly people have to starve themselves and stop drinking because doctors won't give an already dying person a peaceful death.

Similar to you, I also had to watch my grandfather die of "natural causes" over the course of a month and it was terrible. The last words he ever said were, "Just give me the pain medicine, I'm going to die anyway." I hate how my last memories of my beloved grandpa had to be him struggling with pain, because these piece of shit garbage doctors and nurses working in the so called healing profession won't give a dying old man a modicum of relief or dignity in his last days.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
10,083
Yeah, this is what I try to tell myself when I think about how scared I'm going to be if/when I finally attempt. That my natural death could well be just as bad/painful, if not more. And more than likely- protracted with no family or friends around and very likely, with huge financial worries.

Of course, I won't know till I experiece it but, the description of SN poisoning doesn't sound as bad as a gallstone attack. I'm really hoping I've already gone through the most painful thing I will have to experience.

I think the wish with modern medicine is that people shouldn't be in pain. But- realistically- they are. Opiod bases pain killers are incredibly addictive and we build up an immunity to their effectiveness. Plus, they tend to knock you out. What's the point in living if you're in a partly comotosed state best part of the time? Screw all that! Of course, that's not to say I oppose other people doing all that. If they still want to- if life still seems worth it to them- fine. We shouldn't all have to though.

I just don't get it really. If it's religious reasons, why does God get satisfaction out of inflicting prolonged pain at the end or- at all really? Are they really going to be that pissed off if we opt out of it? It seems like punishment to me- but for what? Not everyone lives terribly sinful lives.

And- if it isn't God- and I suppose it isn't actually. It's modern medicine that extends our lives way beyond their natural, intended limit. Then- religions should acknowledge that. We're defying God's plan that way by beating cancer and whatever else they intended to kill us with! Why wouldn't they be equally pissed off about that?!! Like- Jesus- I've been trying to kill John Smith for decades now. Those bastards keep finding a cure for all I keep throwing at him.

It's just bizarre the way we embrace technology that defies the natural order to create or extend life- IVF, trying to grow organs, transplants, cloning, modern surgeries etc. Yet, anything that induces death- also a natural phenomenon, we see as unnatural and condemn.
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,468
This is what I was thinking a few days ago. People usually see death by old age in a romanticized movie form where the person slowly closes their eyes and peacefully drifts to eternal sleep, while being surrounded by family members. The reality seems to be much darker. A lot of people die completely alone, or like you've pointed out with a disease eating them alive.

A lot of older people also get a bunch of mental problems like dementia or Alzheimers which means they are not only dying physically, but mentally as well. Then you have people like my great grandma passing away by essentially choking to death. Water filled her lungs, and while the doctor of course gave her medicine and tried pumping the water out, she probably suffered greatly till the very end. The worst part? Even if she asked to make it quick, the doctor wouldn't allow it.

Dying of old age is no fun and I don't want to experience any of it.
Yeah, that's why restricting euthanasia methods makes no sense.
 
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GhostShell

GhostShell

Member
Dec 5, 2023
81
Just look at some of the medical subreddits for how they torture 90 year old meemaws that dont have a long and bright future ahead of them. DNRs not being respected, putting someone that would die anyway in a week on a ventilator.

Dying in a hospital is the worst place for it. Keeping the body alive through torture is easy, ensuring quality of life is not.

I dare anyone to watch how they resuscitate and then agree to experience that lol.
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,468
Just look at some of the medical subreddits for how they torture 90 year old meemaws that dont have a long and bright future ahead of them. DNRs not being respected, putting someone that would die anyway in a week on a ventilator.

Dying in a hospital is the worst place for it. Keeping the body alive through torture is easy, ensuring quality of life is not.

I dare anyone to watch how they resuscitate and then agree to experience that lol.
Boy, I believe this! As long as the hospital staff can extend a life 10 minutes (no matter how painful), then they can brag about it as "heroes".
 
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gaon

gaon

Member
Jun 18, 2024
5
I keep trying to find a passage in Schopenhauer where he mentions something along this line of thinking