Discussion Do you think it's possible to have ideation without any mental illness?

[Forever Sleep]

I know we've probably discussed this to death but, I felt like talking about it again.

I think a (reasonable) argument that ideation is a symptom of mental illness is that- it surely isn't natural. There simply aren't all that many cases of suicide in the natural world. I know there will be some but- considering the billions of animals that have lived here- suicide doesn't seem to be a major cause of death amongst animals.

So- does that mean they don't contemplate it or, their SI is so strong that they do contemplate it but, can't bring themselves to do it? Maybe we'll never entirely know. What we do know though is- humans are capable of doing both. We clearly have something they don't. I suppose it's a developed sense of self awareness and awareness of this world. So then- why are we even comparing something that we have and the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't and then, making judgements on whether it is functioning as it should be?

I'm not denying that sometimes depression doesn't seem to have a cause. If it comes out the blue or- if it lingers- even after a person's situation seems to have improved dramatically then maybe- it is a change in how that brain is functioning.

Still- if a person's life is shit. They can see that it's shit and they have no idea how to make it less shit- why is that depression? Why is that the brain malfunctioning? Surely, that's simply awareness going- 'Oh hell no! I don't like this. How do I get out of it?'

 

[Darkover]

Yes, ideation—especially around existential topics, death, or the nature of life—can occur without necessarily indicating a mental illness. People often have profound, sometimes unsettling thoughts about life and mortality, and these thoughts are commonly shaped by philosophical beliefs, personal experiences, or an intense search for meaning. Having this kind of ideation doesn't always mean someone has a mental illness; it can also reflect a deep curiosity or awareness about human existence and suffering.

 

[deathwish]

Yes, of course, for reasons stated. Sometimes things blow, will continue to blow, and a rational, well person can observe that and want to exit because of it.

 

[Diogenetic Ruse]

Yes, ideations can indeed occur in people who do not have a recognized mental disorder. Even those without a formal mental health diagnosis may experience such thoughts as a result of severe stress, trauma, major life changes, or overwhelming feelings of hopelessness. Regardless of a formal diagnosis, it's critical to understand that suicidal thoughts can occur in a number of situations.

 

[timetodie24]

Yes I think suicidal ideation can be a response to many things and not always mental illness .
For example, someone with a terminal illness wanting to end things on their terms, someone in grief wanting to be with their loved one or someone having some temporary suicidal thoughts after bad news . I guess some people would agrue in those cases in could all be linked to depression too. But then does it matter whether ideation is difficult situation —> response (ideation)
Or difficult situation —> response (depression ) —> symptom (ideation)
If that makes sense ?
People will always disagree what constitutes understandable reaction vs disorder.
Some may argue they're not necessarily mutually exclusive despite the word disorder

Or similar to darkover says, i think many people have fleeting thoughts as a form of morbid curiosity I guess. I'd take Freud's theories with a pinch of salt but he did talk about all humans having a death drive/instinct too .

 

[ThisGameIsOverrated]

If you logically come to the conclusion life is meaningless or decide your circumstances aren't worth living under then I guess so, if a prisoner doing a life sentence committed suicide I doubt people would think mental illness was the cause

 

[ghost-shock]

Yes. For some people there can be logical reasons to end there lives that doesnt involve mental illness. I think there are more than enough reasons to end my life just by how the world and humans are.

 

[itsnigh]

I do. I'm undiagnosed and do very well at hiding it maybe but i don't think I would be diagnosed even if I Aimed for that. But I have been planning my departure a long time now. I am comfortable with it all. I don't want this life, it's been awful

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Suicide is not neccessarily a malfunction in terms of evolution. The so called altruistic suicide helps the community, if someone sacifices himself for others or if ill and old people kill themselfes before they become a burden to the society. Maybe depressions are a natural functions that help those people to kill themselfes. I am not sure whether higer animals don´t behave in such away. A dog gives his life for his master and elephants seperate from their group when they feel that it is time, being alone will be their certain death.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Yes . I don't have any mental illness

Is it rational and logical for me to question why am I working so hard so many hours for what reason? There is no objective reason.

I don't want to do anything . I prefer non-existence . This is rational not mental illness .

Is it logical to want to work 15 hours a day doing chores, trying to fix problems, having to eat 3 times A day , working a job and commuting, to do lists, cleaning everything etc... Every day . This is every day and for no objective reasons for 90 years, all the time risking extreme torture

Only in non-existence can guarantee never any pain , suffering, problems, bad memories

Instead they tell me I'm insane for not wanting to be a slave prisoner working so hard risking extreme torture for no reason. Trying to beg and cope and humiliate myself to all this evil for no reason

I reject all of existence logically.

With my suicide I can solve all my problems instantly and forever. How is that not rational and a sign of mental illness?

 

[TAW122]

Absolutely, there are people who believe that life isn't really worth living and despite having a good life, they made the decision to check out on their own terms. One well known, or at least publicized example is Martin Manley, who had a website and he was a sports reporter who led a pretty successful life and exactly at age 60, he decided that he was done with life/existence, and then he CTB'd.

Additionally, even those who are bad predicaments due to personal and life circumstances aren't thinking of CTB because of mental illness, but rather the fact that it is a natural reaction to a shitty world and one's predicament. It doesn't imply nor mean that their mind is defective, contrary to what many mental health professionals like to claim. In fact, far too many times the term (or rather buzz word) mental illness just gets thrown around very casually when describing people who deviate from the norm rather than something that is pathologically and biologically founded.

 

[an alien]

Yes absolutely. I think mental illness and mental pain can be completely separate. When you are suffering from tremendous illness, a life of abuse, or even just exhaustion after a long life- there are so many reasons people can want to no longer participate in the game of life without mental illness. Sure it goes against human nature in terms of things like survival instinct but humans are far more complex beings than just acting on natural instincts. People have feelings and complex emotional situations that can make like unbearable without mental illness.

 

[Leiot]

They define suicidal ideation as mental illness.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Suicidal ideation is possible without mental illness simply bc the circumstances can be so terrible and as a result we see no other way out anymore. Such circumstances can also cause (temporary) mental illness (depression).

 

[sanction]

Probably in some cases it has to do with some level of illness, but in general I'd say 90% it isn't

Think about this. Most people who are suicidal are broke and need to work their whole lives. Or heart broken from some relationship, or experiencing health issues. That means they are struggling, while also aware that we will die in the end either way. So it's like playing a pointless game you simply can't win

Not often is there someone with perfect health, very nice and happy family, never been abused before, along with millions in the bank, constantly having suicidal thoughts and dreading life and the future

Mental illness is just a surface level term that people made up of. If the situation is beautiful, it will naturally be loved. But if it sucks, then there will naturally be resentment.... which isn't illness at all. Just common sense. That's why humans are more intelligent than animals. We have this basic mental ability

 

[swankysoup]

I guess it depends on your definition of "mental illness"

 

[ebg]

People's perceptions of mental illness, whatever that's supposed to "be", has never been stable throughout history. I refuse to use that term. Suicidality =! unsound mind. I think that everyone should have the right to die, as no one decides in the first place whether they are born or not. I believe that most humans have very life-centric beliefs, and that a lot aren't curious nor in a rush to discover what's after death. I don't think death is a tragedy. And I don't think I'm "unwell" for believing this. Well, I guess if you equate unwell to not-supporting-life-propagation then sure you can call me "unwell". I hope in the future years of humanity we will all advocate for the right to die, and love and non-judgment. You're all perceived from my nervous system, it's cool to think about. When I was really suicidal, I thought of everyone as aliens (and they felt like it too), whereas they must have seen me as an alien.

Probably in some cases it has to do with some level of illness, but in general I'd say 90% it isn't

Think about this. Most people who are suicidal are broke and need to work their whole lives. Or heart broken from some relationship, or experiencing health issues. That means they are struggling, while also aware that we will die in the end either way. So it's like playing a pointless game you simply can't win

Not often is there someone with perfect health, very nice and happy family, never been abused before, along with millions in the bank, constantly having suicidal thoughts and dreading life and the future

Mental illness is just a surface level term that people made up of. If the situation is beautiful, it will naturally be loved. But if it sucks, then there will naturally be resentment.... which isn't illness at all. Just common sense. That's why humans are more intelligent than animals. We have this basic mental ability

"So it's like playing a pointless game you simply can't win" You hit the nail on the head.

 

[painfree]

I too think it depends on how you define mental illness. While I've been treated for depression I have always heard depression considered mental illness. Which I completely disagree with. A mood or state of mind with rational reason behind it is not an illness. It's life down an unfortunate path. It frustrates me they consider it mental illness. But they figure being suicidal is against human nature that we must be crazy. We can't be that crazy if they trust us to drive, live alone, shop, cook and take our own meds. Clearly we're rational. Then why can't we decide when we're fed up?

 

[affirmatice]

I don't like when people say someone committed suicide because of depression.

Sure there may be some people whose sole struggle is with mental health.

But for so many people, including myself, bad mental health is a symptom of the problem, but not the initial problem itself.

But life always has problems, some people have it worse than others. Some people have a harder time dealing with problems than others. So it's really hard to say.

Personally, I do not consider myself to have any mental illnesses, yet I know that I am at risk for depression because I have always taken problems badly. It's a combination of lower self-esteem, perfectionism, and an anxious mind.

 

[MentalFuneral]

Mental illness is just a social construct at the end of the day, colored by the biases of society. Psychology the furthest thing from an objective science. There are loads of people who are suicidal because the world is a disgusting place, or because they cant conform to the standards placed on them, and not through any fault of their own. That being said I think most animals probably don't have the means to kill themselves so I disagree with that point