Discussion Do you think suicide is, for the majority of the time and for the majority of people, a fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response?

[nembutaldream]

IMO, it could be any and depends on the individual's cognitive reasoning and underlying emotional drives, but I think the MOST common driving responses would be, in order: 1) Flight, 2) Fight, 3) Freeze, 4) Fawn

Although on the surface it might seem like the ultimate Freeze response imo it's not because you don't really get to experience the peacefulness and nothingness of death (unless you have beliefs about the afterlife, etc). Most people know that after they ctb they're not going to be in a blissful pleasant haze akin to opiods or deep meditative states. However, on the other hand, as someone who frequently engages in the Freeze response, I feel like *using* the Freeze response a lot *increases* the desire and tendency toward ctb, as the Freeze state (whether induced by drugs or something "healthy" like advanced meditation) makes any stimulus bothersome, and so, at least for me, the *concept* of death becomes more appealing. Also, as one Freezes more, one's life deteriorates, making fleeing from life altogether (Flight response) seem more appealing.

Still, though, I think in the vast majority of cases for the vast majority of the time, wanting to kill one's self is a Flight response - wanting to get away from the suffering of life in whatever form it takes for the individual. It is difficult to carry out a successful ctb if you are truly in Freeze mode because it actually takes a fair bit of planning and logistics to successfully do it, unless you're lucky.

 

[radiohead]

i feel like it fundamentally has to be a flight response? it is, by nature, escaping everything.
the only time i can think it may not be is for political displays (think: self-immolation) in which case i'd say fight, but those aren't common.

 

[Namelesa]

As you and the previous post says, its mostly a flight response as for most people its to escape the pain they are in.

If it was done partially as a fight response, its mostly done to blame someone for their death and make them feel guilty. My suicide could be considered partially a fight response as I want to use it to punish my family for creating and trapping me here.

You do bring a point in saying it be caused by freeze responses. My suicidness has increased from inaction (tho has also increased by action as well) but I would consider most suicide itself to not be a freeze response. Unless its more just to get to the ending of life earlier?

I won't call suicide at all a fawn response as most suicides aren't done for other people but just for the person killing themselves. Unless maybe someone encourages or gets them to do it?

 

[OptingOutSmiling]

This one is more difficult than I thought, but if it's for the majority, I'd say flight in the end. It made me think though...
If I understand this definition of fawn correctly: "immediately acting to try to please to avoid any conflict", I think his may also be a possible state of mind at the time, feeling guilty over a situation, that one should just "disappear" with flight being the ultimate response.
I'm also thinking some may have a "fighting" attitude, like @radiohead mentions that doesn't happen often, maybe the suicide bombers, etc., but I also relate to the punishment as @Namelesa mentions.
Finally, freeze I think is when we feel there's no alternative, unable to do something to the situation, almost giving up due to hopelessness, seeing it as too much, or accepting what has to be done, ultimately leading to the flight/fight response again?
And then, to complicate it further, I think people in a similar situation may perceive it differently since we don't see things the same and therefore act differently.

 

[CTB Fella]

It's a "FUCK this, I'm DONE!"

 

[SilentSadness]

None of them, those are instinctual reactions and suicide is almost never instinctual. If someone pursues ctb that's generally because they rationally want to escape their suffering and know that death will be the end of it.

 

[human909]

I would say it's a flight to get out of this world at last.

 

[hydrogen]

For me none of the above. I dont consider premeditated suicide to be a survival instinct and when I was actively in the process of trying to kill myself, I was not in any of the 4f modes.

 

[nembutaldream]

I won't call suicide at all a fawn response as most suicides aren't done for other people but just for the person killing themselves. Unless maybe someone encourages or gets them to do it?

I was thinking about cases when people off themselves because they see themselves as a burden to others, maybe unjustifiably so because they have abusive family that's been gaslighting and lying to them. Maybe that would be a fawn situation?

If it was done partially as a fight response, its mostly done to blame someone for their death and make them feel guilty. My suicide could be considered partially a fight response as I want to use it to punish my family for creating and trapping me here.

Same, for me ctb is also about no longer allowing myself to be victimized by people anymore and allowing them to benefit from my presence. So I would call that a fight response. You might realize you can harm people more by offing yourself than you can by staying alive.
t

None of them, those are instinctual reactions and suicide is almost never instinctual. If someone pursues ctb that's generally because they rationally want to escape their suffering and know that death will be the end of it.

Trauma responses are indeed driven by both cognitive and mental processes. What you described sounds like a flight response.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

Ultimately I think it's a fight response for most.
In the case of a narcissistic collapse when it's done in front of others to traumatize them there's an element of fight, going down swinging. Also cases of contrived martyrdom or forcing someone's hand like with suicide by cop it's sort of fight but somewhat passive aggressive.
I think freeze and fawn responses play a huge role in creating the life circumstances people feel they need to escape from with suicide but aren't common drivers of the act itself.

As other's have pointed out, for some none of the trauma responses explain it. For some it's a calculated best next step decision given their personal circumstances.

 

[nembutaldream]

Ultimately I think it's a fight response for most.

Interesting, and good points.

> As other's have pointed out, for some none of the trauma responses explain it. For some it's a calculated best next step decision given their personal circumstances.

I mean, trauma responses are not necessarily *not* calculated. They are often effective. Pretty much everything we do falls into the category of freeze/flight/fawn/fight, just that in what society deems healthy these are not taken to the "extreme" (extreme again as defined by society, lol).

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

I mean, trauma responses are not necessarily *not* calculated. They are often effective. Pretty much everything we do falls into the category of freeze/flight/fawn/fight, just that in what society deems healthy these are not taken to the "extreme" (extreme again as defined by society, lol).

Sorry, I meant "Flight"- my L key is broken and I have to use the on-screen keyboard for that and spell check doesn't always catch it.

"trauma responses are not necessarily *not* calculated." - I'm sure a matrix of trauma responses vs proactive social orientations could be made. To me, "response" in this context is instinctual. The people that get Stockholm syndrome aren't aware of it. The fawn response of a hostage is not the same as the office ass kisser. Fight like running from a mugger is not the same as jogging for fitness.