Discussion Do you think there should be an obligation for suicidal people to try medication and/or therapy?

[Forever Sleep]

Just wondering your thoughts. I sometimes read that people have tried everything going to feel better. There's a part of me that admires that. Not just because they tried for themselves but maybe that part of it was to try for others.

I have this slightly weird idea that I'll hold on for the sake of others. (Really just my Dad now,) but I won't try medications and therapies in the hopes it might actually improve my life or make me more pleasant to be around!

To clarify, I did try meds and therapy very briefly once but I wouldn't be willing to try a whole bunch. Also, to clarify that I'm not around people much to inflict my personality on them!

Personally, I'm pleased when I read that people feel better on meds etc. but I'm also massively concerned when people say it made their situation worse. Seeing as my siuatution isn't exactly unbearable (which I'm thankful for,) it doesn't seem worth the risk in my mind to potentially make things worse for myself by experimenting with mind altering drugs. I'm not trying to knock people here who do use them by any means. I'm just saying that maybe I don't have the same faith in them or mercifully, desperation for them- at the moment.

I have quite a mistrust of doctors/ psychiatrists also. I'm not convinced they properly understand what these things do and I'm not so unhappy that I'm willing to try anything. I might still be unhappy enough to kill myself one day though!

My personal feeling is that it should be absolutely up to the individiual as to what and how much they try to help them in terms of meds and therapy.

What do you think though? Do you think people should feel more of an obligation to try everything going before they decide suicide is the answer? How much is enough?

I imagine this will definitely come into play if they ever allow assisted dying for mental illness. I'm sure they'll want to see medical records that show that multiple drugs and treatments failed over a course of time. Do you think that's fair? Should people have to submit themselves like guinea pigs to a whole long sequence of treatments before being allowed access to VAD? Do you suppose it will ever be fully and only our choice to die rather than that of doctors and specialists?

 

[noname223]

Just wondering your thoughts. I sometimes read that people have tried everything going to feel better. There's a part of me that admires that. Not just because they tried for themselves but maybe that part of it was to try for others.

I have this slightly weird idea that I'll hold on for the sake of others. (Really just my Dad now,) but I won't try medications and therapies in the hopes it might actually improve my life or make me more pleasant to be around!

To clarify, I did try meds and therapy very briefly once but I wouldn't be willing to try a whole bunch. Also, to clarify that I'm not around people much to inflict my personality on them!

Personally, I'm pleased when I read that people feel better on meds etc. but I'm also massively concerned when people say it made their situation worse. Seeing as my siuatution isn't exactly unbearable (which I'm thankful for,) it doesn't seem worth the risk in my mind to potentially make things worse for myself by experimenting with mind altering drugs. I'm not trying to knock people here who do use them by any means. I'm just saying that maybe I don't have the same faith in them or mercifully, desperation for them- at the moment.

I have quite a mistrust of doctors/ psychiatrists also. I'm not convinced they properly understand what these things do and I'm not so unhappy that I'm willing to try anything. I might still be unhappy enough to kill myself one day though!

My personal feeling is that it should be absolutely up to the individiual as to what and how much they try to help them in terms of meds and therapy.

What do you think though? Do you think people should feel more of an obligation to try everything going before they decide suicide is the answer? How much is enough?

I imagine this will definitely come into play if they ever allow assisted dying for mental illness. I'm sure they'll want to see medical records that show that multiple drugs and treatments failed over a course of time. Do you think that's fair? Should people have to submit themselves like guinea pigs to a whole long sequence of treatments before being allowed access to VAD? Do you suppose it will ever be fully and only our choice to die rather than that of doctors and specialists?

It really depends. If they commit suicide on their own not really. Leave it as it is. For assisted suicide. it depends on their condition and reasons.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

My opinion is that there shouldn't be an obligation for us to try out these things. Of course if somebody wants to try out these things, that's fine but I don't see why it should have to be an obligation. At the end of the day, life really isn't valuable and we are all going to die anyway so I don't really see the appeal in trying to determine if somebody's situation is considered hopeless enough by medical professionals for us to warrent a peaceful death. I think that it should be enough for a suicidal person to say they want death to be allowed an earlier and peaceful access to dying

 

[theater]

No. If we had effective treatments and support, that would be different.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

No.

I'm pretty sure that a majority of suicidal people gave therapy and medication a chance before the point of hopelessness is reached. There should be no obligation.

It also depends on whether meds/therapy can solve the problem that makes people suicidal or not.

 

[ThatRussianDude]

I think that if you are generally in good health but your main problem is mental health, then yeah MAYBE.

 

[lachrymost]

No one should have to risk PSSD or akathisia to be granted a peaceful early death. No one should have to go though losing their memories and cognitive functioning to ECT if they would just rather die. That's so repuslive to me.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I would say that if those things actually worked as promised then people should at least try but the problem is that these things simply don't work. The system is broken no matter where you live and there is a large majority of people that cannot be fixed with our current knowledge. Therapy as it exists today is not about fixing problems, it's about shoving problematic issues and individuals into a corner and out of sight so that the rest of the world doesn't have to deal with them.

 

[Bremer]

I think the most important thing is that everyone - suicidal or not - is aware of the options that psychotherapy and the pharmaceutical industry have to offer. Without this knowledge, such a final decision to take the bus should not be made.

There may be good reasons to seek help. If deep down you actually want to live, but you can't cope with your situation or circumstances, you are "just" looking for a way out of the situation, the stress and the associated emotions, but you can't find one on your own and your situation can actually change for the better. Or, like many people in life, you may be going through a phase in which you no longer see any point, but which can pass.

But there may just as well be reasons to make a self-determined decision about your own life, and the end of it.

To answer your question as to whether there should be an obligation: No, because without the will to continue on your own path, no therapist or medication (the effects of which have hardly been researched) can help. However, you as a patient and a rabbit are helping the system, because money can be made from you and data gathered for future meds and pharma profits.

Not to forget you can even try out all the possibilities.
But if you're still suicidal afterwards, the system will tell you that it's because you haven't tried everything. Or not long enough. Or not in the right combination. Or, or, or,... Bullshit!

There should be a commitment to make only well-informed, thoughtful, and free decisions.

 

[ShatteredSerenity]

If we want VAD to become reality (where it's not already) it will need to be regulated, whether or not you like it, because all of medicine is heavily regulated. All regulations have flaws, the challenge is to design regulations that are as effective as possible while minimizing the inevitable flaws.

Doctors won't accept assisted suicide without trying other options first because it's such a severe, irreversible treatement. They always want to see less invasive options tried and ruled out before resorting to something stronger. The problem is that doctors have an incentive to keep trying every concievable intervention, whether or not they're likely to be effective, because that's their job and it's how they earn their salary. So the regulations need to balance the patient's interests against the doctor's biases.

I think requiring some basic amount of therapy and medication trials before approving VAD is a reasonable starting point, since realistically the laws won't be approved without that anyways. However I think there should be an option to override the standard requirements on a case-by-case basis by submitting compelling evidence that the standard requrements aren't in the best interest of the patient. If the override is rejected, the patient should be given clear reasons why and have the ability to appeal.

This approach isn't perfect, but it's a plausible starting point that could be improved over time. The majority of people would most likely be fine with the standard requirements and choose that path. The remaining specialized cases would still have an option for VAD if they can explain their position convincingly, with the ability to appeal rejections. There are still people who would be denied, but this approach would help minimize that number.

Finally, there are cases where society is never going to approve suicide, no matter how liberal. For example a criminal who simply wants to escape consequences. Or a parent with dependent children who refuses any treatment. In those cases the individual has deeply entangled their life with the lives of others for better or worse, and I think it's valid to take the impact of their death on others into consideration before approving something like VAD.

 

[ThatStateOfMind]

Obligation is a no. I do think things like that should be encouraged before trying anything, but not an obligation.

 

[Cavalcade]

An obligation feels cruel. The vast majority of people struggling with ideation do not come by it lightly. Many of us have been suffering intensely for years- trauma so terrible that it makes people retch to even hear second hand. Who are we to force someone who doesn't want to be alive to keep on living? What kind of quality of life, or even successful outcomes are you expecting, when the patient is non compliant and defiant? At what point do we have the right to play God over others' autonomy?

I think increased awareness, and more importantly, access, to supportive therapies and medications would be a good thing, though.

 

[moonlight gate]

28 years of therapy, medications and counseling. i was even admitted twice to a psych ward. i am treatment resistant to all anti depressants. i have earned the right to be left alone and go in peace.

 

[-nobodyknows-]

I don't know if I'd say it should be an obligation, though I would encourage others to at least give it a try simply due to fact that there are a good number of people who have been able to get through things with medication or therapy.

The real question, in my opinion, is "how long to try".

 

[HereTomorrow]

I feel like encouragement, motivation, and incentives are okay to offer a suicidial person to try any kind of professional treatment out. I, as a person traumatized by forced therapy and medication with no intention to do it without a massive overhaul of the current system, truly believe it has the potential to help people. It's helped a close friend of mine from the brink of suicide to full recovery, and I am someone who wants to encourage and offer support for them to make the decision for themselves.

If "obligation" implies force or lack of choice, when there is a clear "No" and the person is otherwise able to make sound minded decisions (I'm talking, knows who they are and why they want to CTB, and not absolutely ready to CTB and cannot be talked out of). I also count illusion of choice (you can say you don't want it, but we'll give it anyway because you need it).

 

[divinemistress36]

No one should have to risk PSSD or akathisia to be granted a peaceful early death. No one should have to go though losing their memories and cognitive functioning to ECT if they would just rather die. That's so repuslive to me.

Fuck ECT

 

[LostLily]

Medications and therapy have help people, I wish I was one of them

 

[somewhat_sorry]

I think people have an obligation to seriously and intentionally consider if suicide is the right option for them and if there are any alternatives. But I also recognize that medications + therapy isn't available for everyone, and that for many (especially on this forum) those solutions won't work, and fully trying them out will just extend the amount of suffering those people have to endure. So I don't think that not trying these solutions makes your suicide less valid, but it's also a case-by-case thing that can't be simplified into a general rule. Because in addition to all the people that would've been better off just moving straight to trying to ctb, there are probably plenty of people who genuinly just needed to try antidepressants and had the ability to live better lives but made a reckless, if understandable, decision to end their lives.

I think in general, from what I have seen, the people on this website are here because they are either thinking through their options or have already carefully chosen suicide considering other options, and if medication/therapy wasn't a step in that calculus for them, I hardly think it invalidates the decision they made since it's clear that they're putting thought into it. I think the feeling that someone should try these things before they kill themselves springs from the fact that it's nice to think that there's always a possible solution, that there's an exact combinatin of therapy and medication and good conditions that will be able to fix you, but there are some people who are just fundamentally unhappy- it would be wrong for people who belong in this category be forced to carry on trying infinite combinations of solutions only to fail because their hope was ultimately doomed.

 

[nogods4me]

Maybe for children. Otherwise, no.

 

[Malfunction]

I should hope not. I tried that route and it costed me everything and a big part of why I'm in this position.

I couldn't possibly wish that on anyone else.

 

[Sutter]

Just wondering your thoughts. I sometimes read that people have tried everything going to feel better. There's a part of me that admires that. Not just because they tried for themselves but maybe that part of it was to try for others.

I have this slightly weird idea that I'll hold on for the sake of others. (Really just my Dad now,) but I won't try medications and therapies in the hopes it might actually improve my life or make me more pleasant to be around!

To clarify, I did try meds and therapy very briefly once but I wouldn't be willing to try a whole bunch. Also, to clarify that I'm not around people much to inflict my personality on them!

Personally, I'm pleased when I read that people feel better on meds etc. but I'm also massively concerned when people say it made their situation worse. Seeing as my siuatution isn't exactly unbearable (which I'm thankful for,) it doesn't seem worth the risk in my mind to potentially make things worse for myself by experimenting with mind altering drugs. I'm not trying to knock people here who do use them by any means. I'm just saying that maybe I don't have the same faith in them or mercifully, desperation for them- at the moment.

I have quite a mistrust of doctors/ psychiatrists also. I'm not convinced they properly understand what these things do and I'm not so unhappy that I'm willing to try anything. I might still be unhappy enough to kill myself one day though!

My personal feeling is that it should be absolutely up to the individiual as to what and how much they try to help them in terms of meds and therapy.

What do you think though? Do you think people should feel more of an obligation to try everything going before they decide suicide is the answer? How much is enough?

I imagine this will definitely come into play if they ever allow assisted dying for mental illness. I'm sure they'll want to see medical records that show that multiple drugs and treatments failed over a course of time. Do you think that's fair? Should people have to submit themselves like guinea pigs to a whole long sequence of treatments before being allowed access to VAD? Do you suppose it will ever be fully and only our choice to die rather than that of doctors and specialists?

Sovereignty.

Agree up to the individual, if in a coherent state. Brave new world it is, perhaps we should have a phsyc review, dna testing, and refernces before any couple has a child…maybe all known pollution stopped, all non nutritional food ceased, unproductive past times that dont contribute to capitalistic output banished, and the act of bowel movements subject to congressional review.

So..not a fan of control, possible authority issues, should look in to that.

Would be my impression the buffet of options should clearly be laid on the table, make it abundantly clear what help is available and what it is. There could be referrals but other than an initial visit should be their choice on whether they attend or use more services. There should be serious consideration for any forced or non consent care.

Enough is a personal limit. Would say if care was there for the taking and a percentage felt it was not enough, the care options should be reviewed for effectiveness and their lack of approval. Fix the care, not a persons enough limit.

Wont be right in my opinion but a "process" of documentation and professionals will most likely be the first answer, but not the right one. There is more wrong in this life that there should be forms filled out for, than a person chosing what to do with their own life. Not the gerbil wheel we run in though. Will be standing in line taking water sips, discussing our issues with the fresh paper litter, taking meds at the food bowl and walking around in a small cage filling out forms, wishing we were squirrels ruling the trees.

I would want my own sovereignty forever, even while sleeping.

 

[CandleShade]

Talking to a therapist, is like taking your clothes off and then taking your skin off, and then having the other person say, "Would you mind opening up your rib cage so that we can start?

 

[ThatStateOfMind]

The real question, in my opinion, is "how long to try".

The unfortunate answer to that question varies from person to person.

 

[Phasmid]

Not the most exciting answer, but for me it depends?

If the person is depressed because of systemic issues or issues they can't do anything to affect like poverty, lack of access to opportunities, healthcare denial, severe disfigurement or disablement etc. then no. Capitalist society is built in such a way that people going through such events will be denied systemic help because if you're depressed because you're poor, the solution to that is making you not-poor, which essentially goes against capitalism. You're not going to therapy yourself out of poverty or not being able to afford life altering medication.

But if you are depressed because of events that are genuinely temporary with reasonable recovery times, such as a particularly vicious break-up, loss of loved ones, victimization through sexual or physical assault, then maybe "obligation" is too strong of a word, but you should generally speaking seek out therapy and psychiatric help.

Although I do find the question to be a bit of a misnomer, most suicidal folks I have known and have read the experiences about already sought out these resources, it just was not enough.

And in a relatively twisted way, I think people who actively wish to commit suicide should seek mental health help explicitly because of the times it won't help. I've been through several therapists and psychiatrists and quite frankly the fact that I am still not even marginally better than I used to be validates my desire to catch the bus. I have in fact tried most things and they've proven ineffective, so making the decision is much easier for me.

 

[L'absent]

Suicidal people should be provided with Nembutal if they wish. Mandatory treatment? It's madness!

 

[madscotsman]

The medications made me worse. Destroyed my body and mind, I'm a shell now. Having been on a anti psychotics and now having permanent side effects is my biggest reason I'm going.

 

[sorrynormal]

28 years of therapy, medications and counseling. i was even admitted twice to a psych ward. i am treatment resistant to all anti depressants. i have earned the right to be left alone and go in peace.

23 years for me, 17 different medications, many of them multiple times. I agree, I tried. The system is a fraud.

 

[J&L383]

Just wondering your thoughts. I sometimes read that people have tried everything going to feel better. There's a part of me that admires that. Not just because they tried for themselves but maybe that part of it was to try for others.

I have this slightly weird idea that I'll hold on for the sake of others. (Really just my Dad now,) but I won't try medications and therapies in the hopes it might actually improve my life or make me more pleasant to be around!

To clarify, I did try meds and therapy very briefly once but I wouldn't be willing to try a whole bunch. Also, to clarify that I'm not around people much to inflict my personality on them!

Personally, I'm pleased when I read that people feel better on meds etc. but I'm also massively concerned when people say it made their situation worse. Seeing as my siuatution isn't exactly unbearable (which I'm thankful for,) it doesn't seem worth the risk in my mind to potentially make things worse for myself by experimenting with mind altering drugs. I'm not trying to knock people here who do use them by any means. I'm just saying that maybe I don't have the same faith in them or mercifully, desperation for them- at the moment.

I have quite a mistrust of doctors/ psychiatrists also. I'm not convinced they properly understand what these things do and I'm not so unhappy that I'm willing to try anything. I might still be unhappy enough to kill myself one day though!

My personal feeling is that it should be absolutely up to the individiual as to what and how much they try to help them in terms of meds and therapy.

What do you think though? Do you think people should feel more of an obligation to try everything going before they decide suicide is the answer? How much is enough?

I imagine this will definitely come into play if they ever allow assisted dying for mental illness. I'm sure they'll want to see medical records that show that multiple drugs and treatments failed over a course of time. Do you think that's fair? Should people have to submit themselves like guinea pigs to a whole long sequence of treatments before being allowed access to VAD? Do you suppose it will ever be fully and only our choice to die rather than that of doctors and specialists?

Absolutely not. I'm glad if people can find success with various pharmaceutical or therapeutic opportunities, but if the individual chooses not to use those modalities, that's their prerogative. (Personally I have had limited success with either drugs or therapy. But at least I tried.)