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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
In some German journals they push the idea of a de-growth world as a modern utopia. Most of it does indeed sound very utopian.
They argument like in the 19th centuries 9 to 5 jobs would have been laughed at and mocked as utopian.
The articles I read were from German sources behind paywalls. I am not sure how widespread and popular the concept of de-growth is in the US. I assume it is more popular in Europe than in the US. I prefer to label sustainability as a way to create wealth and jobs.

I think one argument is the world has to make this change. There is either the collapse of the planet or less growth as option. It is unavoidable if we want to survive. Personally, I don't think humankind is rational. Humans tend to biases like prefering shortterm small pleasures in favor of bigger pleasures that lie far in the future. (hyperbolic discounting) And most people are hard-wired on capitalistic principles. People would prefer dying that way over changing their beloved habits. Or at least they don't care how their children will be doing.

Personally, I am no fan of it. But I think contributions to a circular/recycling economy goes in the right direction. They also argue that there has to happen a major redistribution to please the lower and middle class who had to abstain from their guilty pleasures (buying overseas, vacation by planes etc.) Personally, I would like to see major redistributions but I doubt that this will happen any time soon. Something that baffled me how much CO2 emissions the ultra rich are producing. I think the richest 10% are producing roundabout 50% of all CO2 emissions according to Oxfam. Moreover, the richest 1% is more producing twice as much as the poorest 50%.
 
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executioner1983

executioner1983

death is sustainable
Oct 2, 2023
79
I actually do like this concept. Sometimes less really is more. Capitalism may be great for creating jobs but it's turning our planet to shit. There just has to be a better way, and I think de-growth is the answer.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
I think it's important to distinguish between crony capitalism and laissez-faire capitalism are different. I think unfortunately the US in some ways is a quasi-kleptocracy (Russia is one).




Technological progress can provide a constantly growing economic model that is not dependent on population growth (it also enables population growth).

I'm all for sustainability. I posted about the issue with the greying world economies and demographic pyramids. Not dismissing that, many challenges ahead. Currently an area of active research.
Infinite dilution is the ultimate solution to industrial pollution... When I'm hiking, I pee on dirt – there are lots of things in dirt that look at urine as food, including plant roots, bacteria, and fungi.

World hunger will be solved either through intensive gardening with robots that basically hand-weed everything, vertical farms like Musk's sibling is working on, or fertilizing the oceans, or most likely a combination of these.

Overpopulation is a temporary thing - as we get smarter we can support more people with the same resources, and we're about to get a lot smarter about it. Also, birth rates are below replacement levels in almost all the Western world. And once we colonize the asteroid belt, we can build habitats with space equivalent to a few million earths. My worry is the damage that the current population will do before we get smart enough to live sustainably.
For example, the odds of another massive flu pandemic: If humanity continues on its current track of advancing medical science, the odds are only about 10% because we will soon have the ability to defuse such a crisis.
If, however, we get a backlash against technology that derails science, then we have a roughly 1% per year chance until science is back on track.

Comparing standards of living today to 200 years ago is a bit much. The same is true for 100 years ago. If you include the rest of the world, then it is true 50 years ago or even 25 years ago, or even 10 years ago.
The current slump in standards of living is not very old, and much of it is mostly from Third World countries getting more of the benefits of their work than they used to.
And with the rate that technology is advancing, it certainly doesn't have to be permanent the danger that we try to green civilization too fast, and get a backlash that won't help either the economy or the environment (starving people eat wildlife reserves for breakfast, so to speak).

Solar and wind energy have gone from being the most expensive forms of that generation to the cheapest in just a few decades, and energy storage is finally making good progress. The next 20 to 30 years will be rough (habitat loss from stupid things like biofuels as well as another billion hungry mouths, and alarming things like groundwater depletion), but after that technological progress will overwhelm the slight increases in population, and humanity will become much less destructive. This has already happened in the first world, and the rest of the world will follow suit.

Yes, there are certainly things that could go wrong, but that just doesn't justify a belief that there is an endless sea of swirling monsters and that there is no hope for humanity.



Yes, I will respond to your president&politics post later.
In some German journals they push the idea of a de-growth world as a modern utopia. Most of it does indeed sound very utopian.
They argument like in the 19th centuries 9 to 5 jobs would have been laughed at and mocked as utopian.
The articles I read were from German sources behind paywalls. I am not sure how widespread and popular the concept of de-growth is in the US. I assume it is more popular in Europe than in the US. I prefer to label sustainability as a way to create wealth and jobs.

I think one argument is the world has to make this change. There is either the collapse of the planet or less growth as option. It is unavoidable if we want to survive. Personally, I don't think humankind is rational. Humans tend to biases like prefering shortterm small pleasures in favor of bigger pleasures that lie far in the future. (hyperbolic discounting) And most people are hard-wired on capitalistic principles. People would prefer dying that way over changing their beloved habits. Or at least they don't care how their children will be doing.

Personally, I am no fan of it. But I think contributions to a circular/recycling economy goes in the right direction. They also argue that there has to happen a major redistribution to please the lower and middle class who had to abstain from their guilty pleasures (buying overseas, vacation by planes etc.) Personally, I would like to see major redistributions but I doubt that this will happen any time soon. Something that baffled me how much CO2 emissions the ultra rich are producing. I think the richest 10% are producing roundabout 50% of all CO2 emissions according to Oxfam. Moreover, the richest 1% is more producing twice as much as the poorest 50%.


 
Last edited:
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
I think another thing to consider, central banks typically try to target close to a 2% inflation rate (at least the US). A little inflation is good. It means the economy is growing. But deflation is very dangerous. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

It's very hard to get the economy moving and growing again when you have deflation. Look at the last few decades in Japan and recently in China or in the early 1930's in the US.
Deflation can also mean not just prices but that your wages as well are coming down.

The very definition of a commodity means that it does not have any knowledge component and technology is now at a stage that it quickly acts to increase supply. This may not have been true in the 1970's when we had increases in gold and oil prices because the technonomic medium of the world was not powerful and adaptable enough to respond to higher prices with increases in supply but now we are in that age. And its no longer an age where anything that has anything that has a scarcity-based model can really rise a lot in price. That includes bitcoin because there are 12,000 other cryptocurrencies. Any inert commodity is a bet against technological progress.
Monetary creation ("printing") offsets technological deflation, which is exponentially rising, explaining the absence of inflation.

Deflation is bad because less $ to payback obligations / debt that jsd higher $, like your mortgage.
But inflation makes your debt for things like real estate cheaper over time.















 
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