Existence and non-existence

[0000000000000]

If hypothetically you did not exist before you were born and now you do, but when you die you cease to exist, does that mean that you can switch between the state of non-existence and existence and vice versa? What ensures that after death the state of non-existence will not be interrupted again?

This thought makes me a little nervous.

 

[sserafim]

If hypothetically you did not exist before you were born and now you do, but when you die you cease to exist, does that mean that you can switch between the state of non-existence and existence and vice versa? What ensures that after death the state of non-existence will not be interrupted again?

This thought makes me a little nervous.

I think that's called reincarnation. I heard that if you reach nirvana/enlightenment you'll never have to be incarnated again.

 

[Wayfaerer]

If hypothetically you did not exist before you were born and now you do, but when you die you cease to exist, does that mean that you can switch between the state of non-existence and existence and vice versa? What ensures that after death the state of non-existence will not be interrupted again?

This thought makes me a little nervous.

That's an interesting point and one that I consider as well. If we are brought into existence not of our own will then what suggests that we can leave it of our own will? It's so F'ed up the way existence works. It couldn't possibly care any less what it does and we are hopeless against its will in every way.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Depends on what consciousness is- which no one really knows. Maybe it's just an ability dependent on the brain- like seeing is dependent on having eyes. So- billions more beings will come into this world having the ability to see. Will they see in exactly the same way you or I do? No- it will depend on what eyes they have and whether they are functioning normally.

If reincarnation really is a thing and you come back as a frog- will you be a frog with a human consciousness? Seems unlikely. I think we would see animals evolving much quicker if they all inherited human consciousnesses. So- even if- whatever your consciousness is- is recycled- chances are- it won't be 'you' in any form that you recognise. 'You'll' be in a different body with different genetics, different brain, different parents, different environment for a start. Would you likely be the same person now if you were born to loving, supportive, rich parents in a comfortable environment surrounded by everything you need? Would you still be you if you had perfect health and the genes that enabled you to excel at something you loved and you were given the resources to pursue it? Who knows? Maybe reincarnation may end up being a good thing for some of us- if it does exist.

If we really were being reincarnated over and over, wouldn't more of us have a sense of having lived before? And- why aren't we becoming smarter as a race? Surely- we're not becoming better people! We don't seem to learn from our mistakes. Will more consciousness spring out of nowhere? Sure- it's happening at this very moment. Will what you recognise as 'you' appear again? I guess no one knows but it seems unlikely to me.

Consciousness as we understand it I think develops as our brains do. Partly through our genetics and partly through the environment and experiences that shape us. Were you a fully developed version of yourself as a baby? Surely not. It developed as your brain did. Do you really suppose a fully developed consciousness lies dormant in us or floats into us at a certain age and then, floats back out when we die?

There will certainly be millions more sentient creatures that are birthed on this planet that one day realise they are conscious and either feel blessed or cursed. I kind of doubt that enough of what's in them will realise that it is in fact you- to remind yourself that you hate life. Of course, I could be wrong. In which case, I'll probably see you on here in the next life- having the same conversation! How weird- we could potentially log on here in years to come and 'like' or 'hate' our own posts. There must be a film in that...

 

[0000000000000]

Depends on what consciousness is- which no one really knows. Maybe it's just an ability dependent on the brain- like seeing is dependent on having eyes. So- billions more beings will come into this world having the ability to see. Will they see in exactly the same way you or I do? No- it will depend on what eyes they have and whether they are functioning normally.

If reincarnation really is a thing and you come back as a frog- will you be a frog with a human consciousness? Seems unlikely. I think we would see animals evolving much quicker if they all inherited human consciousnesses. So- even if- whatever your consciousness is- is recycled- chances are- it won't be 'you' in any form that you recognise. 'You'll' be in a different body with different genetics, different brain, different parents, different environment for a start. Would you likely be the same person now if you were born to loving, supportive, rich parents in a comfortable environment surrounded by everything you need? Would you still be you if you had perfect health and the genes that enabled you to excel at something you loved and you were given the resources to pursue it? Who knows? Maybe reincarnation may end up being a good thing for some of us- if it does exist.

If we really were being reincarnated over and over, wouldn't more of us have a sense of having lived before? And- why aren't we becoming smarter as a race? Surely- we're not becoming better people! We don't seem to learn from our mistakes. Will more consciousness spring out of nowhere? Sure- it's happening at this very moment. Will what you recognise as 'you' appear again? I guess no one knows but it seems unlikely to me.

Consciousness as we understand it I think develops as our brains do. Partly through our genetics and partly through the environment and experiences that shape us. Were you a fully developed version of yourself as a baby? Surely not. It developed as your brain did. Do you really suppose a fully developed consciousness lies dormant in us or floats into us at a certain age and then, floats back out when we die?

There will certainly be millions more sentient creatures that are birthed on this planet that one day realise they are conscious and either feel blessed or cursed. I kind of doubt that enough of what's in them will realise that it is in fact you- to remind yourself that you hate life. Of course, I could be wrong. In which case, I'll probably see you on here in the next life- having the same conversation! How weird- we could potentially log on here in years to come and 'like' or 'hate' our own posts. There must be a film in that...

This is the kind of comments i like, thank you.

 

[real person]

what lol

 

[doneforlife]

Depends on what consciousness is- which no one really knows. Maybe it's just an ability dependent on the brain- like seeing is dependent on having eyes. So- billions more beings will come into this world having the ability to see. Will they see in exactly the same way you or I do? No- it will depend on what eyes they have and whether they are functioning normally.

If reincarnation really is a thing and you come back as a frog- will you be a frog with a human consciousness? Seems unlikely. I think we would see animals evolving much quicker if they all inherited human consciousnesses. So- even if- whatever your consciousness is- is recycled- chances are- it won't be 'you' in any form that you recognise. 'You'll' be in a different body with different genetics, different brain, different parents, different environment for a start. Would you likely be the same person now if you were born to loving, supportive, rich parents in a comfortable environment surrounded by everything you need? Would you still be you if you had perfect health and the genes that enabled you to excel at something you loved and you were given the resources to pursue it? Who knows? Maybe reincarnation may end up being a good thing for some of us- if it does exist.

If we really were being reincarnated over and over, wouldn't more of us have a sense of having lived before? And- why aren't we becoming smarter as a race? Surely- we're not becoming better people! We don't seem to learn from our mistakes. Will more consciousness spring out of nowhere? Sure- it's happening at this very moment. Will what you recognise as 'you' appear again? I guess no one knows but it seems unlikely to me.

Consciousness as we understand it I think develops as our brains do. Partly through our genetics and partly through the environment and experiences that shape us. Were you a fully developed version of yourself as a baby? Surely not. It developed as your brain did. Do you really suppose a fully developed consciousness lies dormant in us or floats into us at a certain age and then, floats back out when we die?

There will certainly be millions more sentient creatures that are birthed on this planet that one day realise they are conscious and either feel blessed or cursed. I kind of doubt that enough of what's in them will realise that it is in fact you- to remind yourself that you hate life. Of course, I could be wrong. In which case, I'll probably see you on here in the next life- having the same conversation! How weird- we could potentially log on here in years to come and 'like' or 'hate' our own posts. There must be a film in that...

I did have the same query . If I don't remember "me" , then even if I am the same "me" , does it even matter ? But imagine you remember everything about your past life. How traumatic it would be. Some might have been killed mercilessly, some brutality raped, some might have been the doer , involved in killing, destroying. Your current life can't handle such events. Hence stuff are wiped out. But what is not wiped out are the repercussions. One needs to pay for their act. Hence we keep coming back.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I did have the same query . If I don't remember "me" , then even if I am the same "me" , does it even matter ? But imagine you remember everything about your past life. How traumatic it would be. Some might have been killed mercilessly, some brutality raped, some might have been the doer , involved in killing, destroying. Your current life can't handle such events. Hence stuff are wiped out. But what is not wiped out are the repercussions. One needs to pay for their act. Hence we keep coming back.

Yeah, I do understand your fears. Seeing as none of us truly knows, it seems reasonable to be afraid. I still kind of think that's wishful thinking for some people though- that somehow karma hasn't totally abandoned them. That their perpetrators may have gotten away with it in this life but- they won't in the next. Wouldn't it be worse for those people if they did remember their crimes though? So- if the goal is punishment- why do so few people remember past lives? If the goal is atonement- same deal- we can't atone for things we can't remember! If there's a creator/God behind all this- surely- they have the most to atone for! It was their mind that created this sick little game to begin with- with all its perverse permutations.

Where do animals stand in this also? Will a jewel wasp be punished for stunning a cockroach, dragging it into a burrow, laying eggs inside, and sealing it in to let it's babies devour the poor thing alive? But- that's what that wasp was designed and evolved to do! I'd also say that it's not quite as black and white as good and bad people. Some 'villains' suffer in this life.

I don't know. I still struggle with the end goal. What are we supposed to be aiming for? Surely morals are related to something like a God rather than nature. Nature seems to be more unconscious in the way it works. So- why keep us in the dark about what we're supposed to be doing?!! God can surely see what happens when they don't reveal themselves to all of us- we make shit up and then fight about which version is correct!

 

[achb]

Well imo, non existence isn't a state. You cannot "return" or "leave" non-existence because "you" were never nonexistent.

It can be a bit of a mind fuck because of the language we use to describe "nothing" as "something". But basically.

"You" as a concept is your idea of self built on physical experiences. You cannot "not exist" because "you" is a thing that inherently requires existence.

Even if humanity could be medically replicated later, memories in tact, would you say a clone is you? If someone made your clone would you consider them yourself? Or is it a separate being?
If souls do exist, your next life will be less you than a clone. Memories and experiences stripped away. And if clones and their original are the same person, then does that mean twins are the same person when they are first born? Before experience can shape them?

TLDR: You can never exist again because once you kill yourself, anything that comes after is no longer you.

 

[doneforlife]

Yeah, I do understand your fears. Seeing as none of us truly knows, it seems reasonable to be afraid. I still kind of think that's wishful thinking for some people though- that somehow karma hasn't totally abandoned them. That their perpetrators may have gotten away with it in this life but- they won't in the next. Wouldn't it be worse for those people if they did remember their crimes though? So- if the goal is punishment- why do so few people remember past lives? If the goal is atonement- same deal- we can't atone for things we can't remember! If there's a creator/God behind all this- surely- they have the most to atone for! It was their mind that created this sick little game to begin with- with all its perverse permutations.

Where do animals stand in this also? Will a jewel wasp be punished for stunning a cockroach, dragging it into a burrow, laying eggs inside, and sealing it in to let it's babies devour the poor thing alive? But- that's what that wasp was designed and evolved to do! I'd also say that it's not quite as black and white as good and bad people. Some 'villains' suffer in this life.

I don't know. I still struggle with the end goal. What are we supposed to be aiming for? Surely morals are related to something like a God rather than nature. Nature seems to be more unconscious in the way it works. So- why keep us in the dark about what we're supposed to be doing?!! God can surely see what happens when they don't reveal themselves to all of us- we make shit up and then fight about which version is correct!

The end goal is neither punishment, nor atonement. For example, let's say you have sex. The outcome is you get pregnant. Now if it's teenage pregnancy, it is deemed as punishment. If it is post marriage pregnancy, it is deemed as a blessing. How we perceive things is dependent on societal rules created by humans. But at the end of the day , it is neither a blessing, nor punishment. It's just the outcome of an act. You are here and you perform acts. You cannot not perform act(unless you are in coma). And whatever action you are involved in, the outcome is what you have to be ready to receive. Now , this outcome may be happens immediately or in some other life. Let's say you killed someone and caused immense pain. You will be the recipient of that amount of pain. But may be you have very strong connections and power , so you escape in this life. But what has to come , will come. However the person who lost a loved one and was a recipient of pain because of your act of killing , will never know because you might receive the outcome in some other life. Had it been a punishment, that other person would have had the right to know that you received the punishment, right? It's all cosmic. I have my own inhibitions to believe all this stuff , but then I don't see any other framework explaining brutal stuff happening around the world.

Well imo, non existence isn't a state. You cannot "return" or "leave" non-existence because "you" were never nonexistent.

It can be a bit of a mind fuck because of the language we use to describe "nothing" as "something". But basically.

"You" as a concept is your idea of self built on physical experiences. You cannot "not exist" because "you" is a thing that inherently requires existence.

Even if humanity could be medically replicated later, memories in tact, would you say a clone is you? If someone made your clone would you consider them yourself? Or is it a separate being?
If souls do exist, your next life will be less you than a clone. Memories and experiences stripped away. And if clones and their original are the same person, then does that mean twins are the same person when they are first born? Before experience can shape them?

TLDR: You can never exist again because once you kill yourself, anything that comes after is no longer you.

Ok. Now I am convinced the concept of soul can be debunked if human clones start trodding the face of this earth .

 

[Relic]

Memories and experiences stripped away.

Have you ever met someone and felt that you have known this person like... forever? Or have you any of what they call "talents"? Things that you know how to do intuitively without learning.

There have been experiments to grow organs from the source DNA, so that there would be no rejection. The body would not see it coming from a separate being, and the mind would not care. If the data, the definition of "self" would be replicated, there is a possibility that the subject would just be blind to it.

 

[achb]

Have you ever met someone and felt that you have known this person like... forever? Or have you any of what they call "talents"? Things that you know how to do intuitively without learning.

There have been experiments to grow organs from the source DNA, so that there would be no rejection. The body would not see it coming from a separate being, and the mind would not care. If the data, the definition of "self" would be replicated, there is a possibility that the subject would just be blind to it.

Neither of those things are supernatural, and if they seem so, then that person who claims them is deluded or lying. Regardless, even if I had a soul that was a little russian girl 300 years ago, I do not consider that little russian girl as myself. We have entirely different life formulating events and DNA. We are different people.

Also, wdym by your last bit? If your data were cloned and put into someone else's mind, sure they would think that was them. But if I knew of smth like that, I definitely wouldn't consider that person myself. They're a separate being lol. The me I am is not experiencing what they do.

 

[Relic]

Neither of those things are supernatural

Why do these need to be supernatural to have a background? Calling children who can speak foreign languages without learning "deluded" is... unfortunate. Even then, has anyone called psychiatry a "supernatural" science? Because the chemical imbalance theory was a honest mistake at best.

They're a separate being lol. The me I am is not experiencing what they do.

There are examples of identical twins who had similar experiences at the same time, both mentally and physically, while being miles apart. And twins are quite far from clones. What I meant by "blind" was that one might not register at all that their clone exists. When walking past the mirror, everyone generally takes a look, because it is in fact, a mirror image, which might seem surreal for a second. Looking at a photo of self is a different experience.
You just won't know before you get to meet your clone.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Well imo, non existence isn't a state. You cannot "return" or "leave" non-existence because "you" were never nonexistent.

It can be a bit of a mind fuck because of the language we use to describe "nothing" as "something". But basically.

"You" as a concept is your idea of self built on physical experiences. You cannot "not exist" because "you" is a thing that inherently requires existence.

Even if humanity could be medically replicated later, memories in tact, would you say a clone is you? If someone made your clone would you consider them yourself? Or is it a separate being?
If souls do exist, your next life will be less you than a clone. Memories and experiences stripped away. And if clones and their original are the same person, then does that mean twins are the same person when they are first born? Before experience can shape them?

TLDR: You can never exist again because once you kill yourself, anything that comes after is no longer you.

Yeah- this is what I believe too. That our sense of self develops as the brain does and in reaction to the experiences that person has. The person may of course have certain traits that are genetically strong- not just facial features but certain strengths- being good at maths, a weakness for certain illnesses. So- identical twins that share the same DNA will quite probably develop in a similar way and react in similar ways to the same experiences. Same goes with clones. Their sense of self is going to be different though because their consciousness inhabits a different body. Even siamese twins are surely two people/consciousnesses if they have two heads.

Personally- I think self awareness could well just be an ability just the same as sight or hearing. Those of us lucky to have eyes and ears that work can see and hear. Those of us with a functioning brain are self aware. Be put under anaesthetic or get something horrible like Alzeimer's and the brain function starts to be compromised and your sense of self with it. Surely things like memory, personality, self awareness, recognition of other people have to be connected to the brain if they become compromised when the brain does.

Also- how could a sense of self perpetuate without a body? Wouldn't it be frozen in time? If your body dies and you have no eyes to see, no ears to hear, no senses at all- even if there is some sort of entity recording all this stuff, how is it doing it? Where is it doing it? I don't get the theory really- we just hang around in the void till we get born again?

I don't think we know we exist when we are born though- not in the same way we think about self awareness and consciousness when we are older. Babies are more like other animals. We don't even seem to remember things that young. So- that suggests to me that consciousness isn't a fully developed separate thing that floats in and out of us. It's surely something that develops as the brain does and is compromised if the brain gets damaged or dies I imagine.

 

[achb]

Why do these need to be supernatural to have a background? Calling children who can speak foreign languages without learning "deluded" is... unfortunate. Even then, has anyone called psychiatry a "supernatural" science? Because the chemical imbalance theory was a honest mistake at best.




There are examples of identical twins who had similar experiences at the same time, both mentally and physically, while being miles apart. And twins are quite far from clones. What I meant by "blind" was that one might not register at all that their clone exists. When walking past the mirror, everyone generally takes a look, because it is in fact, a mirror image, which might seem surreal for a second. Looking at a photo of self is a different experience.
You just won't know before you get to meet your clone.

I am truly uninterested in make believe

 

[Relic]

Also- how could a sense of self perpetuate without a body? Wouldn't it be frozen in time? If your body dies and you have no eyes to see, no ears to hear, no senses at all- even if there is some sort of entity recording all this stuff, how is it doing it? Where is it doing it? I don't get the theory really- we just hang around in the void till we get born again?

We are all puppets of the electromagnetic radiation in our solar system, and probably beyond. The void is a very busy dimension, *a lot* of information is stored, sent and received there, including man-made signals. A brain can "see" without eyes, most people dream, including those who were born blind.

I don't think we know we exist when we are born though- not in the same way we think about self awareness and consciousness when we are older.

Apparently prenatal memory is a thing. The study I attached in the other thread includes statements given by children and they used hypnosis on adults.

I am truly uninterested in make believe

I am not talking about religion and/or some mystical figures in the clouds. It has been researched to the best of human abilities, so far. This is not done by any religious groups and they do not deal in beliefs. Can I ask, why are you arguing something you have no interest in? Just curious.

 

[Forever Sleep]

We are all puppets of the electromagnetic radiation in our solar system, and probably beyond. The void is a very busy dimension, *a lot* of information is stored, sent and received there, including man-made signals. A brain can "see" without eyes, most people dream, including those who were born blind.


Apparently prenatal memory is a thing. The study I attached in the other thread includes statements given by children and they used hypnosis on adults.


I am not talking about religion and/or some mystical figures in the clouds. It has been researched to the best of human abilities, so far. This is not done by any religious groups and they do not deal in beliefs. Can I ask, why are you arguing something you have no interest in? Just curious.

Yes- that's a fair point. I've read that about blind people having visual dreams. Dreams theselves are a complete mystery to me. How can we dream about places we haven't been to? Why do people share common themes like flying in dreams?

In of itself though- I don't think any of that is proof that in what we currently understand as reality- that these places or abilities exist though. Dreams are actually the main reason I feel more confident in dismissing that NDE's are evidence that an afterlife reality (in the terms that we currently understand reality) exists. Why can't they just be dreams? I can fly, speak foreign languages, sing amazingly in my dreams. I can't in real life!

When I wake up in the morning- I stop dreaming. Dreams must clearly then depend on the brain being in a certain state. Sometimes though- I'll have visual hallucinations when I first awake. For brief seconds- I'll see weird random things in the room that aren't there. Most of the time- I think it's my brain turning shapes it hasn't initially recognised into things. I've turned a lampshade into a dog, some shelves into an ominous figure, a picture on the wall into a hole with water gushing out, another picture into a neon sign. All of that wasn't real but I saw it. So- our brains can make stuff up. I'm not convinced they can do that when they die though. Obviously though- I don't know for sure. No one does.

I'm not a total skeptic. There's enough weird, unexplained stuff in life to leave me with an open mind. I do like the phrase by Arthur C Clarke though that: 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. I think it works the same for anything we don't quite understand yet. Maybe there is a spiritual reason behind it. Maybe not.

Also, the hypnosis thing is interesting but again- my brain makes stuff up all the time. We wouldn't have any culture- no books, stories, films, art if as a species we didn't have vivid imaginations. Why are people sure these 'memories' in regression are real and not just made up? I guess if they can be verified- that is bizarre but then- why isn't it widespread that people remember before they were born- accurately?

 

[Relic]

How can we dream about places we haven't been to? Why do people share common themes like flying in dreams?

That was a part of hypothesis, that brain acts as a receiver, similar to a radio or TV set. Flying could happen because there is a lack of signal from limbs though. Maybe someone has studied sleepwalkers, not sure if they dream. I had a few occasions of wandering around as a child, no dreams at that time. Or at least I don't remember. What poisons NDE's and "afterlife" is that people make things up to comfort themselves or some just seek to profit from it. The scientific approach is to filter out anything conflicting. There are bigger mysteries than dreams, and it is easier to dismiss than to explain unexplainable. Our reality is our immediate surroundings and things that do not short circuit the mind. We are detached from everything else, and the more we see the horrors of life through the media, the number we get. For us, the only experiences that mean something are our own.

When I wake up in the morning- I stop dreaming. Dreams must clearly then depend on the brain being in a certain state. Sometimes though- I'll have visual hallucinations when I first awake. For brief seconds- I'll see weird random things in the room that aren't there. Most of the time- I think it's my brain turning shapes it hasn't initially recognised into things. I've turned a lampshade into a dog, some shelves into an ominous figure, a picture on the wall into a hole with water gushing out, another picture into a neon sign. All of that wasn't real but I saw it. So- our brains can make stuff up. I'm not convinced they can do that when they die though. Obviously though- I don't know for sure. No one does.

Dreams occur during REM sleep, and their function is regeneration. New neurons and connections between them are being created. I take pills to not have dreams, and this has actually devastating effects. Short-term memory is just not there anymore I have lost interest in things, it just has aged my mind some 30 years in three.

As far as hallucinations go, these are still created in conscious mind. NDE's are are recollections from the time there was little to no activity in the parts of brain that are responsible for dreams and hallucinations.

I'm not a total skeptic. There's enough weird, unexplained stuff in life to leave me with an open mind. I do like the phrase by Arthur C Clarke though that: 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. I think it works the same for anything we don't quite understand yet. Maybe there is a spiritual reason behind it. Maybe not.

I've been thinking, the people who freeze their bodies in cryogenic chambers (an obvious scam) to live again someday, what are they hoping for? It's not going to happen, but even if it would, what are the chances that the thawed block of meat will be the same person again? But if the person is just that, the cells and the DNA, they should just continue where they left off.

Also, the hypnosis thing is interesting but again- my brain makes stuff up all the time.

Hypnotized people can be instructed to do things that thy would otherwise never do. Military has been experimenting with that, and for answers, it is supposed to be more reliable than a lie detector. A serious researcher would not instruct the person to lie, and subjects are tested for inconsistencies. The real and made up parts are filtered and tested in their own way. Aside from hypnosis, there are limits what a five year old can make up. All the answers are analyzed and in cases of "past life" accounts also verified. Everything contradictory is discarded. There are people who do this as clean as possible. Anyone who is there to sell something, the "mediums" and similar, are not the right source.

Remembering traumatic experiences doesn't do much good for anyone, what can be suppressed will be suppressed. It's like mental disorders, some people are fine some are not. Accessing hidden data in subconscious is an interesting topic. Their findings are that these memories are lost by the age of three to five. It could be tied to pineal gland calcification which can start between these ages.

 

[doneforlife]

That was a part of hypothesis, that brain acts as a receiver, similar to a radio or TV set. Flying could happen because there is a lack of signal from limbs though. Maybe someone has studied sleepwalkers, not sure if they dream. I had a few occasions of wandering around as a child, no dreams at that time. Or at least I don't remember. What poisons NDE's and "afterlife" is that people make things up to comfort themselves or some just seek to profit from it. The scientific approach is to filter out anything conflicting. There are bigger mysteries than dreams, and it is easier to dismiss than to explain unexplainable. Our reality is our immediate surroundings and things that do not short circuit the mind. We are detached from everything else, and the more we see the horrors of life through the media, the number we get. For us, the only experiences that mean something are our own.


Dreams occur during REM sleep, and their function is regeneration. New neurons and connections between them are being created. I take pills to not have dreams, and this has actually devastating effects. Short-term memory is just not there anymore I have lost interest in things, it just has aged my mind some 30 years in three.

As far as hallucinations go, these are still created in conscious mind. NDE's are are recollections from the time there was little to no activity in the parts of brain that are responsible for dreams and hallucinations.



I've been thinking, the people who freeze their bodies in cryogenic chambers (an obvious scam) to live again someday, what are they hoping for? It's not going to happen, but even if it would, what are the chances that the thawed block of meat will be the same person again? But if the person is just that, the cells and the DNA, they should just continue where they left off.


Hypnotized people can be instructed to do things that thy would otherwise never do. Military has been experimenting with that, and for answers, it is supposed to be more reliable than a lie detector. A serious researcher would not instruct the person to lie, and subjects are tested for inconsistencies. The real and made up parts are filtered and tested in their own way. Aside from hypnosis, there are limits what a five year old can make up. All the answers are analyzed and in cases of "past life" accounts also verified. Everything contradictory is discarded. There are people who do this as clean as possible. Anyone who is there to sell something, the "mediums" and similar, are not the right source.

Remembering traumatic experiences doesn't do much good for anyone, what can be suppressed will be suppressed. It's like mental disorders, some people are fine some are not. Accessing hidden data in subconscious is an interesting topic. Their findings are that these memories are lost by the age of three to five. It could be tied to pineal gland calcification which can start between these ages.

I think dreams are formed based on deep emotions. Could be fear , love , anything that is not evident externally but is pretty deep seated. I keep seeing my father and another person I was very close to almost every night in dreams. I lost them to death and it has been over a decade now. I don't think about them. I don't discuss them . My day goes as any normal day. But the next day I wake up , I do remember few snapshots of the dream and I remember seeing them. I don't believe in any of those stuff pertaining to souls coming and visiting you in dreams etc. But yeah , it's pretty much the brain. That's where everything lies. ..lol .

 

[Forever Sleep]

That was a part of hypothesis, that brain acts as a receiver, similar to a radio or TV set. Flying could happen because there is a lack of signal from limbs though. Maybe someone has studied sleepwalkers, not sure if they dream. I had a few occasions of wandering around as a child, no dreams at that time. Or at least I don't remember. What poisons NDE's and "afterlife" is that people make things up to comfort themselves or some just seek to profit from it. The scientific approach is to filter out anything conflicting. There are bigger mysteries than dreams, and it is easier to dismiss than to explain unexplainable. Our reality is our immediate surroundings and things that do not short circuit the mind. We are detached from everything else, and the more we see the horrors of life through the media, the number we get. For us, the only experiences that mean something are our own.


Dreams occur during REM sleep, and their function is regeneration. New neurons and connections between them are being created. I take pills to not have dreams, and this has actually devastating effects. Short-term memory is just not there anymore I have lost interest in things, it just has aged my mind some 30 years in three.

As far as hallucinations go, these are still created in conscious mind. NDE's are are recollections from the time there was little to no activity in the parts of brain that are responsible for dreams and hallucinations.



I've been thinking, the people who freeze their bodies in cryogenic chambers (an obvious scam) to live again someday, what are they hoping for? It's not going to happen, but even if it would, what are the chances that the thawed block of meat will be the same person again? But if the person is just that, the cells and the DNA, they should just continue where they left off.


Hypnotized people can be instructed to do things that thy would otherwise never do. Military has been experimenting with that, and for answers, it is supposed to be more reliable than a lie detector. A serious researcher would not instruct the person to lie, and subjects are tested for inconsistencies. The real and made up parts are filtered and tested in their own way. Aside from hypnosis, there are limits what a five year old can make up. All the answers are analyzed and in cases of "past life" accounts also verified. Everything contradictory is discarded. There are people who do this as clean as possible. Anyone who is there to sell something, the "mediums" and similar, are not the right source.

Remembering traumatic experiences doesn't do much good for anyone, what can be suppressed will be suppressed. It's like mental disorders, some people are fine some are not. Accessing hidden data in subconscious is an interesting topic. Their findings are that these memories are lost by the age of three to five. It could be tied to pineal gland calcification which can start between these ages.

All really interesting. You're clearly better read than me. It's got to feel even more real when you experience it yourself- it's interesting but distressing surely for you that not dreaming has had an impact on you. It does feel like it should have a function, certainly. It's so odd though. It makes sense to me that the brain is sorting stuff out while we sleep but you'd think our dreams would always relate to stuff we were doing that day. Memories we were making that day- but it's more like our brains entertain us with some weirdly contructed film while they go about organising everything else. Like you say though- the whole idea of a common source with all of us as receptors makes sense when you think about common dreams. Weird though.

Yeah- imagine loving life so much that you arrange to be frozen to one day hopefully live again. I'd heard that Walt Disney had his head frozen but apparently- that's a myth. Got to be a weird job though- freezing someone. Very trusting too. You've paid all that money upfront. Who's gonna sue if they defrost you in a few decades?

 

[Relic]

I lost them to death and it has been over a decade now. I don't think about them. I don't discuss them . My day goes as any normal day. But the next day I wake up , I do remember few snapshots of the dream and I remember seeing them.

Your dreams are not derived from your thoughts (unless there has been an overstimulation), but your subconscious. I've had nightmares for over 35 years, and there was never a person I knew in any of them. In my extremely rare "normal" dreams I've seen familiar faces, but these people were all alive and well. The only departed friend who came to say goodbye was my dog. Just once. There has been a lot of death and tragedy around me, and I remember all of it. I never see them in my dreams. If you'd like to know what my dreams are like, look at my avatar. I used to draw and paint my nightmares.

our brains entertain us with some weirdly contructed film while they go about organising everything else.

It has been blamed on remote memory, which is genetic and evolutionary. It also includes flying in dreams, among other things, so there's that.

You've paid all that money upfront.

I think it was not upfront, the amount is paid at an interval from the estate until the re-animation happens. So they can get up and reunite with their now empty bank account, well, and maybe buy some cheap zombie flick to kill some time.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Your dreams are not derived from your thoughts (unless there has been an overstimulation), but your subconscious. I've had nightmares for over 35 years, and there was never a person I knew in any of them. In my extremely rare "normal" dreams I've seen familiar faces, but these people were all alive and well. The only departed friend who came to say goodbye was my dog. Just once. There has been a lot of death and tragedy around me, and I remember all of it. I never see them in my dreams. If you'd like to know what my dreams are like, look at my avatar. I used to draw and paint my nightmares.


It has been blamed on remote memory, which is genetic and evolutionary. It also includes flying in dreams, among other things, so there's that.


I think it was not upfront, the amount is paid at an interval from the estate until the re-animation happens. So they can get up and reunite with their now empty bank account, well, and maybe buy some cheap zombie flick to kill some time.

What if the technology doesn't develop before the money runs out though? I bet the relatives would be pissed. All their inheritance gone in turning their departed into a popsicle.

 

[Relic]

What if the technology doesn't develop before the money runs out though?

I guess they then warm them up, in a furnace. This is also a lot cheaper. They may have also changed tactics. The current price lists are around 200k, and that can be paid upfront, but there is nothing about the price of revival, should the day come. This can't be paid upfront. Let's say they slap a 10 million price tag on it. Those who are unable to fork it out while dead will be wheeled out with the trash...

 

[doneforlife]

Your dreams are not derived from your thoughts (unless there has been an overstimulation), but your subconscious. I've had nightmares for over 35 years, and there was never a person I knew in any of them. In my extremely rare "normal" dreams I've seen familiar faces, but these people were all alive and well. The only departed friend who came to say goodbye was my dog. Just once. There has been a lot of death and tragedy around me, and I remember all of it. I never see them in my dreams. If you'd like to know what my dreams are like, look at my avatar. I used to draw and paint my nightmares.


It has been blamed on remote memory, which is genetic and evolutionary. It also includes flying in dreams, among other things, so there's that.


I think it was not upfront, the amount is paid at an interval from the estate until the re-animation happens. So they can get up and reunite with their now empty bank account, well, and maybe buy some cheap zombie flick to kill some time.

They may be derived from subconscious, but is there any reason why narratives are spawned and characters placed in them ? There has to be some evolutionary justification to all of it ?

Sorry to know that. I have my own share of nightmares. My nightmares include seeing unhygienic washrooms, since I am a germophobe ...lol . But the reason I see them is because I have deep seated fear and that manifests in the dreams. There has to be some reasons for your nightmares as well.

 

[Relic]

They may be derived from subconscious, but is there any reason why narratives are spawned and characters placed in them ? There has to be some evolutionary justification to all of it ?

This is what they think, according to Freudian dream theory and its later developments. Dreams can't be put under a microscope, so it's slow and tedious process.

"Remote memory may even involve information collected over the course of evolution and reflected in typical dream themes, such as flying and being chased."

Frontiers | Freud's Dream Interpretation: A Different Perspective Based on the Self-Organization Theory of Dreaming

The self-organization theory of dreaming proposes that the sleeping brain is a self-organizing system that can combine discontinuous and incongruous neuronal...

www.frontiersin.org

There has to be some reasons for your nightmares as well.

I have my fears like everybody else, but my nightmares do not reflect any of those. The lighter ones are just surreal, like mutated Dali paintings, but heavier stuff is downright "demonic". There is rarely a normal human being in there. I have seen these from an early age, so no contamination by media or anything. Years after the nightmares started I had a brain trauma, among other ones, and I think they just got more intense from there. I've also had 33 years worth of headaches from that point, every week, around four days a week, or more. I have ultrasensitivity to mostly everything, like smells, light, sounds, touch. Before I started taking a lot of meds in 2015 I also had almost animal senses (I think we call it the sixth), I could tell what someone in the same room with me was thinking(the mood of it, and sometimes the theme), the intuition was painful. For others it was either amusing or creepy. So my nightmares could actually have many reasons and sources.

 

[doneforlife]

This is what they think, according to Freudian dream theory and its later developments. Dreams can't be put under a microscope, so it's slow and tedious process.

"Remote memory may even involve information collected over the course of evolution and reflected in typical dream themes, such as flying and being chased."

Frontiers | Freud's Dream Interpretation: A Different Perspective Based on the Self-Organization Theory of Dreaming

The self-organization theory of dreaming proposes that the sleeping brain is a self-organizing system that can combine discontinuous and incongruous neuronal...

www.frontiersin.org

I have my fears like everybody else, but my nightmares do not reflect any of those. The lighter ones are just surreal, like mutated Dali paintings, but heavier stuff is downright "demonic". There is rarely a normal human being in there. I have seen these from an early age, so no contamination by media or anything. Years after the nightmares started I had a brain trauma, among other ones, and I think they just got more intense from there. I've also had 33 years worth of headaches from that point, every week, around four days a week, or more. I have ultrasensitivity to mostly everything, like smells, light, sounds, touch. Before I started taking a lot of meds in 2015 I also had almost animal senses (I think we call it the sixth), I could tell what someone in the same room with me was thinking(the mood of it, and sometimes the theme), the intuition was painful. For others it was either amusing or creepy. So my nightmares could actually have many reasons and sources.

True. There are many things beyond our perception. We have this amazing brain but sadly whatever we have unlocked about this world doesn't even come close to tip of the iceberg.

 

[Relic]

True. There are many things beyond our perception. We have this amazing brain but sadly whatever we have unlocked about this world doesn't even come close to tip of the iceberg.

I need a constant distraction to not go completely insane, and some of those distractions are Starry Night and Redshift. The imagery in these is not completely accurate, but it'll have to do. In these there are only a few known Earth like planets that can support life, out of the billions and possibly trillions that exist. When we finally start to understand the Universe and all the parallel ones, we might finally get past the few kilobytes of data and it's utilization in our head hard drive/CPU combos. Human intellect actually might have been higher at some point in history. Humanity is supposed to have four seasons like a year has, and right now we have reached the Fall.

 

[doneforlife]

I need a constant distraction to not go completely insane, and some of those distractions are Starry Night and Redshift. The imagery in these is not completely accurate, but it'll have to do. In these there are only a few known Earth like planets that can support life, out of the billions and possibly trillions that exist. When we finally start to understand the Universe and all the parallel ones, we might finally get past the few kilobytes of data and it's utilization in our head hard drive/CPU combos. Human intellect actually might have been higher at some point in history. Humanity is supposed to have four seasons like a year has, and right now we have reached the Fall.

True. Either we had higher intellects in the past or may be we shall evolve to become higher intellects in the future. Like the ones in Interstellar, the future beings able to perceive dimensions beyond space and time. I love starry nights. I used to go to the terrace with my aunt and stare at the night sky for hours. She would tell me about constellations and different mythologies and their importance. I can hardly observe night sky now.

 

[Tobacco]

Thinking of antinatalism led me to the same conclusion. I feel like it's hard to philosophically justify why since the start of the universe we supposedly perceibed nothing and then at random we get into the brain of a specific body and then we return to the same darkness. But I don't like this. Since this world is so horrible I don't want to come back.

 

[numbspirit]

In order to come to a reasonably clear conclusion here, we would first have to define what consciousness is. A neuroscientist would probably say that it is neurochemical processes that influence neuronal activity in the brain and lead to consciousness. This assumption is supported by numerous experiments that investigate the connection between the brain and consciousness.
Most attempts to explain consciousness are probably of a spiritual nature. However, there are also very wild theories, for example that the brain is an interface to a collective intelligence or a kind of "cloud consciousness".
In the end, however, it probably doesn't matter which conclusion you come to, because all attempts to explain it fail because of one question: How can matter lead to a thinking self? I don't think this question can ever be fully clarified; consciousness will probably remain a metaphysical mystery.
The mere fact that we have no idea what consciousness really is and how it works means that we can only make wild assumptions about the topic of "consciousness on/off", all of which of course cannot be empirically proven.

What can be considered relatively certain, however, is that things that affect consciousness, such as decision-making or reactions, can be measured in the brain. In addition, neurochemical processes, such as the interaction between neurotransmitters and receptors, have a significant influence on consciousness, as it influences mood, sleep, what we do and many other things.
From this we can conclude that consciousness seems to be chained to our body and dependent on it.
I would like to believe that consciousness is a separate entity from the body, that's a nice thought. Unfortunately, we simply have to face the fact that this idea is no longer tenable in the light of our current scientific knowledge. We have to assume that the composition of the brain and neuronal activity lead to consciousness and thus to our ego. This would mean that an exact copy of a brain, down to the atoms, would result in the same consciousness, the same ego. Conversely, this means that our exact brain is necessary to recreate our consciousness. Unfortunately, this has consequences for many romantic ideas. Reincarnation, for example, is effectively off the table.

There are now several problems with the question of whether a consciousness could exist again and again.
Firstly, of course, consciousness itself can no longer make any changes as soon as it ceases to exist, so it would be dependent on external events. Since we can now assume that a consciousness would need the exact same brain, there is not much choice. The only plausible possibility, at least in theory, would be the cryonics already mentioned by other users, which, it has to be said, is pure science fiction dreaming. During freezing, the structure of the brain is completely destroyed by the ice crystals, rendering the brain unusable.
Of course, we don't know what other types of preservation will be discovered, and it may be that one day we will be able to place brains in liquids, for example, in order to protect the brain structure during preservation. At the moment, however, we are miles away from something like this, and whether it will ever be possible is questionable. And even if it were, the brain would have to be preserved as early as possible. As soon as it begins to decompose, more and more information is lost until it is finally completely gone. So unless you die at a time when this is possible and right on the spot so that the brain can be preserved quickly, it is not possible, even in theory, to be resuscitated in this way.

Another important aspect of this topic is that, in theory, you have to think in terms of instances of consciousness. This has also already been mentioned here, but I would like to expand on it a little. This can be explained quite simply using teleportation: If I teleport a person from A to B, their body is disintegrated at A and reassembled from other atoms at B. This means that the teleported person now has a de facto new body, a new brain. If the composition is absolutely identical, at B he will not notice this. However, the person who was dissolved in A is dead. The person lives on, but in a new instance. This means that even if your brain was copied and you technically lived on - you, i.e. your current instance, would definitely be dead and would never come back.


TL;DR

when you die you cease to exist, does that mean that you can switch between the state of non-existence and existence and vice versa?

No. From a natural point of view, this is absolutely impossible, so it depends on the appropriate technology. Even if that may or may not be possible one day, we would need that technology before you die, so you don't need to worry.

What ensures that after death the state of non-existence will not be interrupted again?

As soon as you die, you are gone. If your brain takes physical damage or starts to decompose, any chance of revival is lost for all eternity and your consciousness will never exist again in the history of the universe.

If you die and are not revived in time, you will never think a thought again, it will all feel like the billions and billions of years before you were born: nothing.

Hope this helped.