Fate and free will

[sserafim]

Do you believe in fate and free will? Do you think that everything is pre planned and predestined or that we have free will and agency and control over our lives? But what if our free will led us towards our eventual fate and destiny? I kind of believe in past lives / reincarnation and I heard that everyone has a pre-birth plan for their life of how it's going to go once they get here on this earth and what their purpose is / what they're going to achieve but I think my life has gone so far off course, it's not gone according to plan. I think this might be due to my free will messing things up…ugh

 

[aitouka]

This is such an interesting question. I've thought about it many times before, and I will still say I am not sure. The pre-question is: does cause and effect apply in everything? If yes, then everything is pre-planned, without doubt. If no… well, there are millions of other answers out there.

 

[Ligand]

Absolutely not. I am a hard-determinist. I live like I have free will, but if I think about it long enough I recognize that free will is probably just an illusion.

 

[anne neum]

i dont think those are mutually exclusive

 

[Groundhog_Day]

I remember being 10 years old at school and thinking that I would look back at myself and wished I'd done things differently, but that it would be an illusion, as I could only do things based on my brain at that point in space and time. I didn't choose this body, brain, environment, family etc and we live in a causational universe, therefore, free will seems to be an illusion to me. That's not to say I think there is fate or a meaning to anything. Also, the universe is so complex, it would be almost impossible to predict the future perfectly.

 

[Pluto]

It leads to a more fundamental question of identity. The body is in many ways a predictable machine with a mind of its own, manipulated by all sorts of conditioning caused by childhood experiences. Yet the everyday experience of making choices appears very real for most people.

Those who have attained more advanced states of consciousness (e.g. Ramana Maharshi) often incline towards a deterministic outlook. Yet it could be counterproductive to adopt this prematurely as a mere belief system. Obviously, free will would go out the window if someone has a genuine insight that the individual person - the one whose identity is defined by the body-mind - is an illusion, since there would be no one left to be a choice-maker or a doer of actions.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Sometimes I wonder if it's a mixture. If certain things are bound to happen to us in life but then, there is a margin of choice on how we respond to them. But then, I think it's just my bullshit fantasy trying to protect me from how utterly random and uncaring the universe probably is. Like- how we convince ourselves that the bad stuff that happens in life is actually something good in disguise- that it will lead us somewhere better. That it will make us stronger.

I think really- we just all feel alone and frightened- especially when making the big, risky decisions in life, or when particularly bad things happen. So- we prefer to think some being like a God has a plan for us and will hopefully take care of us. I think it's equally possible that we're just alone. That ultimately- we're miniscule bits of dust on an enormous timeline. That our decisions albeit the odd genius here and there make barely a ripple asides from our own lives and that the universe doesn't give a solitary shit about what we choose. The universe is just as likely to be unconscious of our existence as determining it.

I think free will definitely exists. After all, people from loving, caring backgrounds don't all end up as high achieving, 'good', moral people. People from abusive, neglectful backgrounds don't all end up as criminals. Some people who have criminal thoughts don't act on them. People can certainly be highly influenced by their environment but ultimately- we choose the path we take.

I actually really dislike the idea of fate/predetermination actually because it absolves anyone of wrong doing. There is no right or wrong if we don't have free will. If it was all decided for us. Personally- I believe people who commit heinous crimes and hurt other people deliberately are guilty. They knew it was the wrong thing to do. They knew it was illegal but they chose to do it anyway- more often than not to satisfy a selfish personal need.

Plus- there's the whole thing of- where would this predetermination come from. A God? A God that is judging us? That becomes void though if this God has already decided how we are going to respond to things. You can't judge someone if you made the choice for them! Plus- if whatever it is that creates predetermination already knows what's going to happen in precise detail- why do they need to see it play out?

 

[doneforlife]

T

Sometimes I wonder if it's a mixture. If certain things are bound to happen to us in life but then, there is a margin of choice on how we respond to them. But then, I think it's just my bullshit fantasy trying to protect me from how utterly random and uncaring the universe probably is. Like- how we convince ourselves that the bad stuff that happens in life is actually something good in disguise- that it will lead us somewhere better. That it will make us stronger.

I think really- we just all feel alone and frightened- especially when making the big, risky decisions in life, or when particularly bad things happen. So- we prefer to think some being like a God has a plan for us and will hopefully take care of us. I think it's equally possible that we're just alone. That ultimately- we're miniscule bits of dust on an enormous timeline. That our decisions albeit the odd genius here and there make barely a ripple asides from our own lives and that the universe doesn't give a solitary shit about what we choose. The universe is just as likely to be unconscious of our existence as determining it.

I think free will definitely exists. After all, people from loving, caring backgrounds don't all end up as high achieving, 'good', moral people. People from abusive, neglectful backgrounds don't all end up as criminals. Some people who have criminal thoughts don't act on them. People can certainly be highly influenced by their environment but ultimately- we choose the path we take.

I actually really dislike the idea of fate/predetermination actually because it absolves anyone of wrong doing. There is no right or wrong if we don't have free will. If it was all decided for us. Personally- I believe people who commit heinous crimes and hurt other people deliberately are guilty. They knew it was the wrong thing to do. They knew it was illegal but they chose to do it anyway- more often than not to satisfy a selfish personal need.

Plus- there's the whole thing of- where would this predetermination come from. A God? A God that is judging us? That becomes void though if this God has already decided how we are going to respond to things. You can't judge someone if you made the choice for them! Plus- if whatever it is that creates predetermination already knows what's going to happen in precise detail- why do they need to see it play out?

That's a great take. I too believe that few things are predetermined and few are left to free will. The things that are predetermined are a direct result of what you are supposed to receive because of something you did. Like , let's say I have done something that caused you pain. So I shall be the recipient of the same amount of pain . That pain is predetermined. But not the entire life. You might initiate some new acts. That's free will. Those actions might again have repercussions which ultimately will reflect on you. No one is up there to see it play out. It's the framework.

 

[real person]

free will doesn't exit

 

[Rouge4000]

Do you believe in fate and free will? Do you think that everything is pre planned and predestined or that we have free will and agency and control over our lives? But what if our free will led us towards our eventual fate and destiny? I kind of believe in past lives / reincarnation and I heard that everyone has a pre-birth plan for their life of how it's going to go once they get here on this earth and what their purpose is / what they're going to achieve but I think my life has gone so far off course, it's not gone according to plan. I think this might be due to my free will messing things up…ugh

Of course. However I believe many people lack the qualifications to enact what we as people call free will. They abuse it use it to justify their evil and disgusting actions and behavior. I believe fate is a folk tale past time. However certain things happen to certain people for reasons. Fate might be one of them

 

[R_N]

Not really, I see my body as a machine. Even "awareness" and denying some of my needs serves a purpose most likely.

Btw I wonder how op is, I didn't see her posting in a while. Hopefully she is doing ok.

 

[ChangeWaiter]

I lean towards pure determinism, but that is probably only due to my consciousness protecting itself and looking for justification for it's own failures. If free will is real and things that happen to us now or after we die are an indirect consequence of past choices, in order to punish or reward us, then guys, i surely am screwed for good. If the purpose of our existence is actually to learn along the path of our choices, then I must come out levels higher when I'm done with this, cause my cercumstamces are a textbook example of an epic fail.

 

[DarkRange55]

I do not believe in determinism. Considering the single-universe sense, in my opinion quantum mechanics plus chaos/complexity eliminates determinism.

Time is an illusion - everything that can exist always exists. Time is an illusion, but that illusion has a direction that is consistent so it is not unreasonable to speak of time as always moving forward. Within a universe, time is a multifaceted jewel that humans insist on viewing one facet at a time but really the past, present and future are all happening simultaneously, but is vastly understating the case in the multiverse. I find that time is a hard illusion to shake off. Einstein said that this is merely an illusion (albeit a persistent one).

When measuring a particle determines whether this thread of your consciousness is in a universe where the particle is spin up, or in a universe where the particle is spin down, there is no "spooky action at a distance" difficulty because of course the other particle has the complementary spin.

Instead of "fate," in the traditional sense: it's actually cosmic synchronicity and coincidence - What's the difference?

I have explained my thoughts on free-will in a different thread.

 

[DarkRange55]

I do not know on freedom and free will - you may be able to choose which universe you perceive within the multiverse.

I do not believe in determinism. Considering the single-universe sense, in my opinion quantum mechanics plus chaos/complexity eliminates determinism.

Time is an illusion - everything that can exist always exists. Time is an illusion, but that illusion has a direction that is consistent so it is not unreasonable to speak of time as always moving forward. Within a universe, time is a multifaceted jewel that humans insist on viewing one facet at a time but really the past, present and future are all happening simultaneously, but is vastly understating the case in the multiverse. I find that time is a hard illusion to shake off. Einstein said that this is merely an illusion (albeit a persistent one).

When measuring a particle determines whether this thread of your consciousness is in a universe where the particle is spin up, or in a universe where the particle is spin down, there is no "spooky action at a distance" difficulty because of course the other particle has the complementary spin.

Instead of "fate," in the traditional sense: it's actually cosmic synchronicity and coincidence - What's the difference?

I have explained my thoughts on free-will in a different thread.

To clarify, In the multiverse, everything that can exist always exists. In a given universe, things are not predetermined because quantum mechanics says that nothing can be measured precisely in all variables, and chaos ensures that imprecisions are amplified in many cases.

 

[wildflowers1996]

I don't understand free will ("the ability to do otherwise in the same situation"

surely if your actions are not caused, they are random? that is not free

I know we have a concept of "choice" but I find it very hard to put into words what it means

 

[Homo erectus]

There are too many free wills. Everyone wants to force his or her will over other people's. At the end of the day, there is little leeway for everyone.