Venting Help! The argon triggers my HC alarm but I don't test CO2 in it!

[Jodes]

I tried filling up a bag with argon, breathing in from that, and then just out, out of the bag. After 3 breaths I was gasping for air!! So The "pure argon" is definitely triggering my hypercapnic alarm it seems so seems there's CO2. Yet when I run it through a weak solution of bromothymol blue, it stays blue, so it looks like 100% argon?? Yet breathing through it turns it yellow/clear pretty quickly. WTF. HELP PLS this was my main choice. It might be time for a different method :( this SUCKS

 

[TiredHorse]

My experience with hypercapnic alarm (HCA):

I did a test run with my exit bag, no gas, just to see how long it took before my HCA kicked in. I didn't inflate the bag; it was just pulled on over my head and the elastic drawn snug (not tight) around my neck. It took a surprisingly long time for HCA to appear --several minutes of sitting in a chair getting bored, getting annoyed at the bag fogging up, then getting up to use the toilet, returning, sitting for a while longer. It then came on fairly gradually.

By contrast, when I was actually attempting to ctb (with 100% pure nitrogen) I was unable to keep my breathing deep or steady. My stress level was off the chart, my adrenaline levels must have been outrageous, and I did feel as though I was "gasping for air" even though I had a relaible 15LPM flow of gas.

I would not be surprised if what you're thinking is HCA may be something else. Perhaps a stress response? I don't know for certain, but from what I know was an HCA response, your situation sounds very different.

 

[Jodes]

My experience with hypercapnic alarm (HCA):

I did a test run with my exit bag, no gas, just to see how long it took before my HCA kicked in. I didn't inflate the bag; it was just pulled on over my head and the elastic drawn snug (not tight) around my neck. It took a surprisingly long time for HCA to appear --several minutes of sitting in a chair getting bored, getting annoyed at the bag fogging up, then getting up to use the toilet, returning, sitting for a while longer. It then came on fairly gradually.

By contrast, when I was actually attempting to ctb (with 100% pure nitrogen) I was unable to keep my breathing deep or steady. My stress level was off the chart, my adrenaline levels must have been outrageous, and I did feel as though I was "gasping for air" even though I had a relaible 15LPM flow of gas.

I would not be surprised if what you're thinking is HCA may be something else. Perhaps a stress response? I don't know for certain, but from what I know was an HCA response, your situation sounds very different.

TiredHorse, thank you so much for replying.

So, in total I tried it 4 times, the first time my adrenaline was sky high and I basically had no idea what was going on, and breathing very fast heavy breaths. But after each attempt I prepared myself more. On the 4th time I'd calmed down an awful lot. In fact I would have kept trying probably to a 6th-7th attempt with that cylinder.

But on the 4th, I was calm enough to confidently observe that the argon gas itself was triggering some kind of panic response. I'd also pumped it up to 25lpm which helped. I was happy to go and relaxed and ready. The bag wasn't "in my face", breathing was calm - the most excitement I had was from sitting back down after turning on the gas!

So I decided to do a non-CTB test the next day, as I described, no bag over my head or anything - just something to see how inhaling that argon affected me. And after 3 breaths, inhaling from the gas and exhaling to the room (stitting somewhere safe), I was gasping for air as if I hadn't had held in a breath for 60 seconds - yet I had been having the 3 breaths quite naturally, over about 20-30 seconds. So loosely arguing, that's several times more of an HCA effect in that argon than in what effect holding my breath has.

So although I was obviously a little agitated even on the 4th attempt, by then it was minimal. I'd have thought I was about as calm as can be for someone about to CTB. I mean like, most poeple wouldn't have known anything was up.

So it's a real mystery because the only thing I can think is that it's the argon. This is so confusing and frustrating because everything made sense - or it would if I could detect CO2 in this argon! I'm wondering if there's a new gas they use to trigger the HCA in low doses without large quantities of CO2? I'm clutching at straws with that, it's all that I can think of but there's zero online I could find online about it.

 

[TiredHorse]

I have to admit, I am completely baffled. I have no clue what could be happening.

I'm sorry I'm not of more use.

As a side note, I wonder if something like your experience might have effected me during my failed attempts with N2, and I didn't recognize it at the time.

 

[Jodes]

I have to admit, I am completely baffled. I have no clue what could be happening.

I'm sorry I'm not of more use.

As a side note, I wonder if something like your experience might have effected me during my failed attempts with N2, and I didn't recognize it at the time.

No honestly absolutely thanks for your take on it, in a way I'm glad I'm not the only one baffled :-/ it's terrible to say. I'm so sorry you had the experience with N2. I have still a little bit more empathy about what you've gone through then and since!

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

Hello there Jodes and Tired Horse. I'm alarmed to read this as this is my only possible method, as I have severe paradoxical reactions to anti-emetics (so drugs are out).

I can't remember where I read the physical effects of sudden hypoxia as evidenced by deep-sea divers, but one of them was increased respiratory rate and (I think) heart rate. My eyes are too sore to look properly for the source, although I believe I read this in more than one place. I wonder if this is a possible explanation, rather than the hypercapnic alarm being triggered? I supposed either way, it doesn't make it a very usable option if you feel you are struggling for air.

 

[Deivis]

I tried filling up a bag with argon, breathing in from that, and then just out, out of the bag. After 3 breaths I was gasping for air!!

You can post a label or a sticker from your tank here, is it from a welding shop?
Based on your description, it seems you were too agitated and anxious on your first few rounds. It shall pass.

Just like TiredHorse, I tried N2. The very first breaths only seem like suffocation, like some high altitude thin air, but nowhere close to HCA or being submerged. It took me 15-20 seconds before everything started to gradually go blurry and dim. As you've already said, try again when you are prepared and don't rush yourself ....

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

'The symptoms of hypoxia with rapid onset (a few minutes) are dizziness, dimness of vision or "tunnel vision,"
paraesthesia and tingling, numb lips, difficult speech, breathlessness, followed soon by collapse and unconsciousness.'

from: archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/6041/SPUMS_V27N1_13.pdf?sequence=1

 

[color_me_gone]

This is all very disappointing to hear.
I had high hopes for this method, everything I had read made it sound so easy and peaceful.
Now, not so much.
Is anyone aware of a SS member who actually ctb using this method?

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

Hello Deivis. Did the feeling of suffocation pass or did it cause you to have to abort the attempt?

 

[ScorpiusDragon]

I tried filling up a bag with argon, breathing in from that, and then just out, out of the bag. After 3 breaths I was gasping for air!! So The "pure argon" is definitely triggering my hypercapnic alarm it seems so seems there's CO2. Yet when I run it through a weak solution of bromothymol blue, it stays blue, so it looks like 100% argon?? Yet breathing through it turns it yellow/clear pretty quickly. WTF. HELP PLS this was my main choice. It might be time for a different method :( this SUCKS

how do you obtain argon?

 

[TiredHorse]

how do you obtain argon?

Welding supply stores. It's more expensive than N2, though.

 

[Deivis]

Hello Deivis. Did the feeling of suffocation pass or did it cause you to have to abort the attempt?

Yes, and there wasn't even a feeling of suffocation, it doesnt burn your throat or lungs or anything like that.
It's so rapid that you cant figure out what is happening. Like when they're putting a person under the anesthesia drip and ask him to count to 10........
On your 5 or 6 mark you're out without even noticing it....

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

My stress level was off the chart, my adrenaline levels must have been outrageous, and I did feel as though I was "gasping for air" even though I had a relaible 15LPM flow of gas.

Hi Tired Horse,

I didn't realise from your previous accounts of your failed attempts that you had been gasping for air... was it this air hunger that made you abort the attempts?

Thanks for your account of your experience Deivis :)
Charlotte

 

[TiredHorse]

Hi Tired Horse,

I didn't realise from your previous accounts of your failed attempts that you had been gasping for air... was it this air hunger that made you abort the attempts?

The analogy isn't entirely accurate: I wasn't so much gasping for air as I had serious trouble breathing slowly and deeply, which is what is really needed for eb/N2. I was on the edge of hyperventilating, due to the stress.

No, the "air hunger" wasn't what caused me to fail. It was a very peculiar sort of survival instinct response. I believe I've described it elsewhere, but the short version is that just as my vision was greying out, it was as though someone else took over my body and calmly removed the bag and turned off the gas. The me that wanted to die was still there, howling in frustration, but I didn't have any control over my body. The best way I've found to describe it is that I felt the sort of helplessness as an infant in the hands of an adult, being lifted away from my toys and put back into my crib, utterly incapable of contesting this "other person" who had taken over my body. As soon as the gas was turned off, the "other person" departed, and I was left sobbing and exhausted, incapable of resuming the attempt.

So it was survival instinct, not method/materials failure. Though be warned, eb/N2 can take longer than you expect to knock you out. It isn't necessarily the push-the-off-button, take-a-breath-and-you're-unconscious scenario it is sometimes advertized as. Stress changes the scenario dramatically, and survival instinct has plenty of time to get its claws into you and ruin everything.

If you have something weird happening, as @Jodes has --and maybe I did, given it took me a lot of breathing before my vision even went grey?-- it obviously gets even more complex.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

I'm sorry you went through that Tired Horse. It sounds as if it would be worked if the SI hadn't kicked in, given the greying of your vision (if you find a way to recover I'm glad it didn't!).

I wonder if speeding up of the breathing is a physical effect of the O2 deprivation and not just stress, which might explain Jodes' reaction. Watching the clip of Michael Portillo being deprived of oxygen and almost passing out / dying from hypoxia (only funny if you're British - he's a much disliked Tory MP) you can see he's very relaxed but seems short of breath. Being under extreme stress would magnify this effect I'm assuming.

It seems if you can brave this discomfort it will still work, but take longer than ideal and give the SI much time to kick in. If I have to do this it will be at a time of extreme stress as I have no wish to die and devastate my family, but I will be in much physical pain. Why does Five Last Acts make it seem so easy, aimed as it is for those suffering terminal illness? I can't imagine them being able to breathe slowly and deeply either.

Controlling panic seems key to this technique.

 

[Deivis]

Controlling panic seems key to this technique.

Thats exactly the key.

Somebody (I think it was Schwarzenegger) once asked Mohammed Ali (famous boxer back in the days)
"How many reps you do?".... And Ali replied "I'm not counting until it starts to burn"..

If you fix your attention on the process - and not the result - and keep telling yourself "One more rep, one more second", it will be a lot easier.