Discussion How can you have peace between Israel and Palestine when the Palestinian authority says Muslims will exterminate the Jews?

[Pessimist]

Serious question coming from an Israeli. How do you make peace with an entity whose stated goal is to exterminate your ethnic group and nation, based on a hadith?



Despite claiming to be the moderate and sometimes even secular, the Palestinian authority doesn't seem very different from Hamas, and their goal is similar.

 

[Aim]

Where did this info come from? Some bullshit propaganda persons opinions bullshit probably.
Either way! There is absolutely not 1 fucking good enough reason whatsoever on this earth. For Israel to be doing what they are doing to the people and to the children of Palestine! Its literally so heartbreaking that words looses its meaning!! Evilness in its purest form, nothing else!

 

[Pessimist]

Where did this info come from? Some bullshit propaganda persons opinions bullshit probably.
Either way! There is absolutely not 1 fucking good enough reason whatsoever on this earth. For Israel to be doing what they are doing to the people and to the children of Palestine! Its literally so heartbreaking that words looses its meaning!! Evilness in its purest form, nothing else!

This information came from actually living in Israel and experiencing Islamist terrorist attacks on a regular basis. You have the choice to ignore it, but they have been calling for the genocide of Jews for decades:

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.

Also, it's funny you talk about the children of Palestine but not about the babies who were kidnapped or murdered by terrorists who want to "raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine".

Overall your response is shocking and driven by emotional propaganda and ignorance rather than logical arguments, historical facts or actual knowledge about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

[Aim]

Don't get me wrong I feel very bad for both the Palestine and the Israelis people! But what the Israels government or whoever they call themself to be is doing is just straight up evil! And should have never gotten to to that point. however, it's alot of emotions involved in this for many. Which I totally can understand. However, from a northern European point of view, I think it's fair to say that it's totally ok to agree to disagree

 

[Pessimist]

Don't get me wrong I feel very bad for both the Palestine and the Israelis people! But what the Israels government or whoever they call themself to be is doing is just straight up evil! And should have never gotten to to that point. however, it's alot of emotions involved in this for many. Which I totally can understand. However, from a northern European point of view, I think it's fair to say that it's totally ok to agree to disagree

Why won't Hamas release all the Israeli hostages for a permanent ceasefire and the end of the war?

 

[Aim]

Idk! It's very sad! But if we look back in history where these tragic things gets to this point, it's more often then not the longing of power and control. But idk.

 

[SexyIncél]

Idk! It's very sad! But if we look back in history where these tragic things gets to this point, it's more often then not the longing of power and control. But idk.

fwiw, Norman Finkelstein analyzed that the moment the hostages are free, Israel's gov't will likely fabricate an excuse to destroy Gaza

Because then there'll be "near perfect unanimity to bomb Gaza into the stone age... and will include all those parents who were shouting in the Knesset, in my view."

Finkelstein's good at helping people honestly evaluate Israeli gov't talking points

 

[Pessimist]

fwiw, Norman Finkelstein analyzed that the moment the hostages are free, Israel's gov't will likely fabricate an excuse to destroy Gaza

Because then there'll be "near perfect unanimity to bomb Gaza into the stone age... and will include all those parents who were shouting in the Knesset, in my view."

Finkelstein's good at helping people honestly evaluate Israeli gov't talking points

Poor analysis. Once the hostages are released and the war is over, the Israeli centrists and leftists will demand Netanyahu to resign, just like Golda Meir took responsibility and had to resign after the surprise attack from Egypt and Syria. You will see massive protests just like there were before the war began.

 

[SexyIncél]

Poor analysis. Once the hostages are released and the war is over, the Israeli centrists and leftists will demand Netanyahu to resign, just like Golda Meir took responsibility and had to resign after the surprise attack from Egypt and Syria. You will see massive protests just like there were before the war began.

[Excuse me for the copy/paste, but gotta defend my time]

I'm not responding to this guy's response addressed to me. I've intervened to stop adults who attack children. Little point in responding:

• supports genocide that indiscriminately bombs & starves kids trapped in a death camp
• posts mainly to spam propaganda

I'm happy to discuss with people disagreeing in good faith. But eating everyone's time is a common tactic:

"Well, that's one of the ways in which you can kid yourself into believing that you're still doing your work, when really you're being bought off—because there's nothing that elites like better than saying, "Oh, come convince me." That stops you from organizing, and getting people involved, and causing disruption, because now you're talking to some elite smart guy—and you can do that forever: any argument you can give in favor of it, he can give an argument against it, and it just keeps going."
— Noam Chomsky, "Understanding Power"

 

[odradek]

HAMAS fighters and Palestinians people (47.3% under the age of 18) are not wholely the same. Not every one in Gaza is a fighter. There is no moral high ground in bombing children in their homes even if they are antisemitic children. There is no justification for murdering innocent children, regardless of their genocidal ambitions. A child's racism or genocidal intent is not relevent to whether they deserve to live or die. This is an absurb premise btw.

Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the history of the world, full stop. HAMAS has recycled rockets and paragliders. They steal munitions from Israel and collect their dud bombs. These guys are such an existential threat they can steal weapons unnoticed from Israel and repurpose duds because how many bombs is too many bombs? I don't doubt their ambitions to wipe out Israel and all the Jews (more than half of all live outside Israel), just their ability to see it realized. Most of these non-HAMAS kids were too young to vote or not even born when HAMAS was elected.

Who do they send their complaints to? IDF snipers at the wall? Should they send a message in a bottle to a ship in the sea blockade? The HAMAS leaders in Qatar? The memo section on the blank cheque the USA sent? Their parents graves? How do they prove they're not terrorists and don't deserve to be bombed? Palestinians, especially the children, have no voice in this conflict. Or no voice that the powerful can hear.

When there's a school shooter, they don't bomb the school. When someone takes hostages, they don't bomb the building. If HAMAS are barbarian terrorists, aren't we supposed to hold ourselves to higher standards then them? Or is terrorism a tactic for me but not for thee? What is happening to the children in Gaza is genuinely terrifying.

 

[Pessimist]

[Excuse me for the copy/paste, but gotta defend my time]

I'm not responding to this guy's response addressed to me. I've intervened to stop adults who attack children. Little point in responding:

• supports genocide that indiscriminately bombs & starves kids trapped in a death camp
• posts mainly to spam propaganda

I'm happy to discuss with people disagreeing in good faith. But eating everyone's time is a common tactic:

"Well, that's one of the ways in which you can kid yourself into believing that you're still doing your work, when really you're being bought off—because there's nothing that elites like better than saying, "Oh, come convince me." That stops you from organizing, and getting people involved, and causing disruption, because now you're talking to some elite smart guy—and you can do that forever: any argument you can give in favor of it, he can give an argument against it, and it just keeps going."
— Noam Chomsky, "Understanding Power"

I love how you want to discuss in "good faith" after calling Israeli Jews "genocidal maniacs".

HAMAS fighters and Palestinians people (47.3% under the age of 18) are not wholely the same. Not every one in Gaza is a fighter. There is no moral high ground in bombing children in their homes even if they are antisemitic children. There is no justification for murdering innocent children, regardless of their genocidal ambitions. A child's racism or genocidal intent is not relevent to whether they deserve to live or die. This is an absurb premise btw.

Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the history of the world, full stop. HAMAS has recycled rockets and paragliders. They steal munitions from Israel and collect their dud bombs. These guys are such an existential threat they can steal weapons unnoticed from Israel and repurpose duds because how many bombs is too many bombs? I don't doubt their ambitions to wipe out Israel and all the Jews (more than half of all live outside Israel), just their ability to see it realized. Most of these non-HAMAS kids were too young to vote or not even born when HAMAS was elected.

Who do they send their complaints to? IDF snipers at the wall? Should they send a message in a bottle to a ship in the sea blockade? The HAMAS leaders in Qatar? The memo section on the blank cheque the USA sent? Their parents graves? How do they prove they're not terrorists and don't deserve to be bombed? Palestinians, especially the children, have no voice in this conflict. Or no voice that the powerful can hear.

When there's a school shooter, they don't bomb the school. When someone takes hostages, they don't bomb the building. If HAMAS are barbarian terrorists, aren't we supposed to hold ourselves to higher standards then them? Or is terrorism a tactic for me but not for thee? What is happening to the children in Gaza is genuinely terrifying.

Unlike Hamas, Israel is playing fair and trying to minimize civilian casualties. Sending warning messages to civilians before bombing a war zone is a proof. The IDF could invade Gaza, shoot, murder and kidnap everyone they see (that's what Hamas did), but they will never do it. Israel could respond to the Palestinian authority by saying that Jews will exterminate the Muslims, but it will never do it. There are tens of thousands of terrorists in Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, etc. At least one thousand IDF soldiers have already died in the Gaza battles. It's not a one-sided war.

 

[odradek]

I love how you want to discuss in "good faith" after calling Israeli Jews "genocidal maniacs".

Unlike Hamas, Israel is playing fair and trying to minimize civilian casualties. Sending warning messages to civilians before bombing a war zone is a proof. The IDF could invade Gaza, shoot, murder and kidnap everyone they see (that's what Hamas did), but they will never do it. Israel could respond to the Palestinian authority by saying that Jews will exterminate the Muslims, but it will never do it. There are tens of thousands of terrorists in Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, etc. At least one thousand IDF soldiers have already died in the Gaza battles. It's not a one-sided war.

You don't get kudos for not being blatantly genocidal. One of the most advanced militaries in the history of humanity vs guerrilla fighters with recycled rockets in an open air prison. It's definitionally a one sided war. If Hamas had the ability to go into Israel, wipe everyone out and take over, by your own admission, they would have. They can't. Israel cut off electricy and water to Gaza. If you can do that to your "opponent" on the 1st day of a war, it is not an equal fight.

 

[Pessimist]

You don't get kudos for not being blatantly genocidal. One of the most advanced militaries in the history of humanity vs guerrilla fighters with recycled rockets in an open air prison. It's definitionally a one sided war. If Hamas had the ability to go into Israel, wipe everyone out and take over, by your own admission, they would have. They can't. Israel cut off electricy and water to Gaza. If you can do that to your "opponent" on the 1st day of a war, it is not an equal fight.

How did you come to the conclusion that the IDF is one of the most advanced militaries in history? Anyway there are two important points you made that I would like to address.

First of all, the idea that the war is just between Israel and Hamas/Palestine is incorrect; Israel is also fighting Iran-backed Islamist terrorist groups Hezbollah and the Houthis. How is this a one-sided war? Popular liberal American streamer Destiny mentioned it here (3:10):



Regarding the water crisis: despite of what Palestinian propaganda wants you to think, Israel supplies only 10% of water to Gaza. Jewish American Shanni explained it here (56:50):

 

[Suicidebydeath]

I'm not one to pick sides in this conflict, as a westerner I have plenty of Jewish friends, far more than I know any Palestinian people. However if you can point out which of these are such "terrorists" that you can't absolutely make peace with them, that would be great. Since most of these kids are already dead now, it's too late for them. Humans should be better than this. The death toll of kids in Gaza is catastrophic.

 

[Pessimist]

View attachment 127671
I'm not one to pick sides in this conflict, as a westerner I have plenty of Jewish friends, far more than I know any Palestinian people. However if you can point out which of these are such "terrorists" that you can't absolutely make peace with them, that would be great. Since most of these kids are already dead now, it's too late for them. Humans should be better than this. The death toll of kids in Gaza is catastrophic.

Don't get me wrong I'm not blaming children for this, and I do find it sad that Palestinian children have died because of Israeli missiles, but the war is not likely to end before the release of all Israeli hostages. If Hamas refuses to release them for a permanent ceasefire, then you need to wait for the IDF to find and return them.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

Well imo Hamas are also terrorists with blood on their hands. I have no faith in them either as far as future peace is concerned and negotiation seems futile to me personally, as a westerner I grew up with "never negotiate with terrorists" blasted at me by our popular media, like movies. Whomever is responsible for massacres should be eradicated, but only the people who have commited atrocities. If it was up to me, I would only advocate for civilians & innocent on both sides to be released, which I guess would not be accepted, and who is to judge whether "soldiers" are innocent, certainly not me, especially when one side's soldiers is the other side's "terrorists". It's far too easy for me to sit in an ivory tower and pass judgements here, when there are lives in the balance, so I'll bow out respectfully.

 

[Pessimist]

Well imo Hamas are also terrorists with blood on their hands. I have no faith in them either as far as future peace is concerned and negotiation seems futile to me personally, as a westerner I grew up with "never negotiate with terrorists" blasted at me by our popular media, like movies. Whomever is responsible for massacres should be eradicated, but only the people who have commited atrocities. If it was up to me, I would only advocate for civilians & innocent on both sides to be released, which I guess would not be accepted, and who is to judge whether "soldiers" are innocent, certainly not me, especially when one side's soldiers is the other side's "terrorists". It's far too easy for me to sit in an ivory tower and pass judgements here, when there are lives in the balance, so I'll bow out respectfully.

I don't think it's fair to compare between the Israel Defense Forces, an army that has military prisons for soldiers who committed crimes during their service, and Hamas, an Islamist organization that openly dedicates itself to genocide against the Jewish people. In their own words, and taken from a hadith they are obsessed with:

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.

From the pro-Palestinian side, I see people calling for an immediate ceasefire at best, and wanting to arm Hamas at worse. I don't see anyone pressuring Hamas and calling for the release of the kidnapped Israelis, but I do see people tearing down posters of kidnapped children. I support a permanent ceasefire and it needs to come with the release of the Israeli hostages.

 

[mimi2161]

This is such an ironic thing to post when there are literal videos of Israeli officials (multiple) claiming the same things about Arabs AND Israeli citizens themselves chanted death to all Arabs in protests. You are disgustingly misinformed.

 

[Pessimist]

This is such an ironic thing to post when there are literal videos of Israeli officials (multiple) claiming the same things about Arabs AND Israeli citizens themselves chanted death to all Arabs in protests. You are disgustingly misinformed.

Israeli officials say Jews need to massacre the Muslims? Please provide a source for this claim. Regarding citizens, there are racist people in both sides. There are also countless videos showing racist Palestinians chanting "Itbah al Yahud" (meaning massacre the Jews).

 

[Rapière]

Israeli officials say Jews need to massacre the Muslims? Please provide a source for this claim. Regarding citizens, there are racist people in both sides. There are also countless videos showing racist Palestinians chanting "Itbah al Yahud" (meaning massacre the Jews).

Far-right minister: Nuking Gaza is an option, population should 'go to Ireland or deserts'

 

[Pessimist]

Far-right minister: Nuking Gaza is an option, population should 'go to Ireland or deserts'

Fair enough, but not surprising coming from Otzma Yehudit (basically the Judaist version of Hamas/Palestinian Islamic Jihad). This is the most right-wing political party in Israel, even most right-wing Israelis and religious Zionists think they are too radical. Fortunately they only have 6 (out of 120) Knesset seats. Hamas, on the other hand, is the majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council.

 

[Rapière]

Hamas, on the other hand, is the majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council.

They were elected in 2007 and have been ruling quasi-dictatorially since then. Only 17% of the Palestinians living in Gaza right now voted for them.

 

[Pessimist]

They were elected in 2007 and have been ruling quasi-dictatorially since then. Only 17% of the Palestinians living in Gaza right now voted for them.

I know, but how is it relevant to what I said?

 

[Rapière]

I know, but how is it relevant to what I said?

I thought you were implying collective guilt for the october 7th massacre.

 

[Pessimist]

I thought you were implying collective guilt for the october 7th massacre.

I'm not that unhinged

 

[Rapière]

I'm not that unhinged

That' good. There's quite a lot of germans who think that -- ususlly they are too scared to say it out loud but it's often implicit in their wording. One said the Palestinians were "so-called civilians"; a public broadcasting service showed a video of a stereotypcal arab wearing a "I love Hamas" shirt... just a few examples of the madness here.