If we don’t have real choice, then we should not allow pro-lifers to keep our plight out of their minds!

[TAW122]

Disclaimer: Of course, in our current world, yes, there are people who have successfully CTB'd, but more oftenly than not, they have to jump through numerous hoops, take (calculated and sometimes unnecessary and haphazard) risks, and many more. All of this would not be necessary nor would be a thing if only we had either a codified legal right to die, or at the minimum, free from State (or any third party) intervention upon our negative liberty rights. I'm writing this article since I thought it would be an interesting idea and discussion on what could be done if we cannot even have concessions.

In other words, if we are denied our rights and not have our wishes or demands satisfied, the least we can do is to NOT allow the pro-lifers and anti-choicers "keep our plights (our struggles for wanting to CTB or whatever we are facing) out of their minds". Anyways, the inspiration for writing this thread sprung from one of existentialgoof's comment (which has been stated before, but simply just restated and reworded, though the meaning is more/less the same) about how pro-lifers and anti-choicers refuse to honor our rights and keep us in suffering, and ultimately keeping our plights out of their minds.

Here is a quote from existentialgoof that supports my thread:

How is it worse to deny them that option without addressing the causes of wanting to die, than at least giving them a choice? Because it will make YOU feel bad if they choose to die, whereas if they're just struggling in poverty but forced to live, you can keep their plight out of your mind?

Building off of EG's comment, this means that they the anti-choicers and pro-lifers would be required to either give us what we wished for (or at least some reasonable concession) or be forced to have our plights on their minds.

Also keep in mind I don't condone nor endorse any illegal acts or actions that would result in more (or worse) consequences for us, but just as part of the argument and strategy such that if we aren't getting what we want, at least we aren't letting our oppressors and opponents (the pro-lifers and anti-choicers) get away scot free either.

So what do I mean by this? What I mean is that if we are de facto 'forced to live against our will' (not withstanding attempting to DIY, taking unnecessary risks with great possibility of failure and complications), then the difference between our current world and the hypothetical scenario would be "the anti-choicers will not get away scot free. They will have to either A) Forced to confront the ugly truth as long as we keep our plights in their minds, B) Not have to confront it by solving it or at least not actively impinging on our rights."

In conclusion, it means that our current reality (the reality that we live in, not hypothetical scenario) is that we currently do NOT have an exclusive, sanctioned right to die (Note: This is not the same thing as having to DIY or sneak around existing policies and run unnecessary risks), and also we don't have our plights acknowledged and solved. We live in a world in which neither the guaranteed positive liberty right to die doesn't exist as well as our plights not being resolved nor addressed. So therefore, this thread's suggestion was to merely keep our plights in the minds of our oppressors, namely the anti-choicers and pro-lifers. Therefore, they would be forced to either put up with our inconveniences as a consequence of the lack of a positive liberty right (the right to die) as well as the lack of freedom from impingement on our negative liberty rights (the right to not be intervened, interfered, obstructed with our civil liberty when we choose to die our own own), or having to come up with some solution whether big or small, and then having to address our suffering.

 

[MatrixPrisoner]

Allow it or deal with us. But we sure as hell aren't going to sit here and suffer and silence. I love it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I wonder if it's more that the majority of us (and I mean all of us) are just lazy and self centred. How many people are actually actively trying to keep suicidal people alive or, campaigning for them to be allowed to die? I doubt even many people here are openly campaigning on the right to die. I expect the majority of people just go with the flow, unless something has the potential to affect them directly.

Yes, they'll likely try to stop someone from jumping if they see them but how many really say come on here to try and talk people out of it? Expose sources etc? I'd say, relatively few. Yes, there are groups of people who have lost loved ones and hate and blame and target this place as a result but I imagine your average normie doesn't think about it all that much.

If we compare it to other examples. Other beings in plight- children starving in third world countries and animals suffering in factory farming. Should we all have to witness images of skeletal children or animals being mistreated before we eat? Because- we're part of a system that allows these things to happen? Because we aren't actively doing enough to change these things? What's really reasonable to ask of people? Surely- we should all be vegan but, we're not. And that's worse- surely? We are actively consuming animal products. Most normies likely haven't had any dealings whatsoever with a suicidal person.

I agree- it's good to talk about this stuff though. To make people aware that there are people suffering in this world with very little chance of things improving. Shouldn't they be offered a humane way out? As for continually rubbing their noses in it though- I don't know. Does it work on you? All those charity adverts there are or people trying to collect on the streets. How many do you give to? Have they changed your perception or habits to try and ease the plight of others?

I imagine it's actually only a few that hold the power to make these decisions- like legalising assisted suicide. But even still, I get the impression we (me included) see the pro-lifers as this big band of annonymous busy bodies but- they're not. They're made up of parents I imagine a lot of the time. Would your parents support your wish for suicide? Would they be unreasonable in not supporting it? Surely, on an individual basis, you'd appreciate their viewpoint? I think we definitely need to talk about this openly but I don't know. I don't think screaming about our plight would do all that much. Maybe for people where they can visibly see they have a terrible life but I suspect for a lot of us, they'd just take the piss out of us for being 'weak'.

 

[TAW122]

@MatrixPrisoner Thanks for your compliment.

@Forever Sleep You brought up lots of good points, and perhaps it could be that we "think" that most of the anti-choicers and pro-lifers are out there to get us, but it's mostly true that barring a few extremely militant moral busybodies, not many people are out there actively trying to impinge on our liberties.

On the other point about the majority of people not caring unless it directly impacts or affects them, yes that is true, and I don't necessarily wish for ill or bad things to happen to them, though I would guess that if something did impact them like a life changing event that affects them financially, physically, or even in various ways the negatively impact their quality of life, I believe it's likely they aren't going to blindly and staunchly support prolonging life or forcing continued existence at all costs. I'm sure there will be at least some consideration for the right to die in specific situations.

With regards to mostly grieving parents, I can understand why they would be very opposed to legalizing assisted suicide even, but I would think that there would be exceptions made, and not solely for the terminally ill, but also for those whose quality of life is dire and in irremediable suffering in which one deems one's life is intolerable. (I believe I wrote another thread discussing about expanding assisted death to more than just the 'terminally ill', here).

Anyways, yes, overall I agree with your points and we should have more candid, honest and open dialogue (not hijacked by pro-life, anti-choice, or CTB-prevention rhetoric) with regards to the right to die. It's one of the more guaranteed ways to ensure progress is made as well as increased likelihood of people having their rights respected, at the minimum, freedom from impingment or interference with one's negative liberty rights.

 

[sugarb]

I sometimes daydream about trying to organize a few thousand people for a "March for Death" in Washington. Make it a big spectacle, organize, get some right-to-die legislation going. but as you said I'm ultimately just too lazy and self-centered lolol

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

I wonder if it's more that the majority of us (and I mean all of us) are just lazy and self centred. How many people are actually actively trying to keep suicidal people alive or, campaigning for them to be allowed to die? I doubt even many people here are openly campaigning on the right to die. I expect the majority of people just go with the flow, unless something has the potential to affect them directly.

Yes, they'll likely try to stop someone from jumping if they see them but how many really say come on here to try and talk people out of it? Expose sources etc? I'd say, relatively few. Yes, there are groups of people who have lost loved ones and hate and blame and target this place as a result but I imagine your average normie doesn't think about it all that much.

If we compare it to other examples. Other beings in plight- children starving in third world countries and animals suffering in factory farming. Should we all have to witness images of skeletal children or animals being mistreated before we eat? Because- we're part of a system that allows these things to happen? Because we aren't actively doing enough to change these things? What's really reasonable to ask of people? Surely- we should all be vegan but, we're not. And that's worse- surely? We are actively consuming animal products. Most normies likely haven't had any dealings whatsoever with a suicidal person.

I agree- it's good to talk about this stuff though. To make people aware that there are people suffering in this world with very little chance of things improving. Shouldn't they be offered a humane way out? As for continually rubbing their noses in it though- I don't know. Does it work on you? All those charity adverts there are or people trying to collect on the streets. How many do you give to? Have they changed your perception or habits to try and ease the plight of others?

I imagine it's actually only a few that hold the power to make these decisions- like legalising assisted suicide. But even still, I get the impression we (me included) see the pro-lifers as this big band of annonymous busy bodies but- they're not. They're made up of parents I imagine a lot of the time. Would your parents support your wish for suicide? Would they be unreasonable in not supporting it? Surely, on an individual basis, you'd appreciate their viewpoint? I think we definitely need to talk about this openly but I don't know. I don't think screaming about our plight would do all that much. Maybe for people where they can visibly see they have a terrible life but I suspect for a lot of us, they'd just take the piss out of us for being 'weak'.

You make some great points. I think more of us would be proactive in trying to get our right to choose legalized, IF ONLY we knew how. Who do we talk to? As you said, it's only a few that hold the power... So where do we begin?

 

[Forever Sleep]

You make some great points. I think more of us would be proactive in trying to get our right to choose legalized, IF ONLY we knew how. Who do we talk to? As you said, it's only a few that hold the power... So where do we begin?

I think the member: @Praying 4 a Miracle has been posting the most with regards to actually campaigning for the right to die. I imagine it would be things like writing to MP's, signing appeals etc. There have been a few UK ones I have signed.

Realistically though, I think at best, we'll see assisted suicide brought in for the terminally, maybe chronically ill. Sadly, the group of people who maybe don't have enough health or energy to put up a massive appeal themselves. The rest of us I imagine will be stuck here for the forseeable future. So then it becomes- how energetic are we feeling to help others? It may well not come in in time to help us. By doing so also, we reveal ourselves to likely be suicidal.

I think a lot of people (including me) would be concerned of 'outing' themselves if it came to vocalising we should all have the right to die. People can change if they know you're suicidal, so I think it's quite a brave move to stand up and be counted like that. How many of us are willing to do that? Make eployers, our friends and family suspect if not be fully aware of how we feel in order to help others?

 

[OnlyOneSolution]

I think the member: @Praying 4 a Miracle has been posting the most with regards to actually campaigning for the right to die.

PrayingForaMiracle has posted some fantastic material. I am ready....

 

[TAW122]

What Forever Sleep said is pretty accurate, at least in terms of what we may expect within the near or interim future. Assisted suicide or similar programs (death with dignity, MAID, Dignitas, Pegasos, etc.) would become more widely accepted even in communities (not all, of course) that once were not as tolerant towards the idea and notion. Then at first, it may only be limited to those who meet a narrow criteria such as being terminally ill and with 6 months or less to live. If that passes and becomes more accepted, then we could see it expand to cover those who are chronically (not terminally) ill especially those with severe physical conditions like ALS, quadreplegia and similar situations. Even at that level of expansion, it would be a major step in what we have in present day, because it means that even if don't have as free of option as we'd like (ideally), we at the minimum, have the guaranteed right to die if we get severely physically ill and lose significant independence and autonomy.

I also concur with the point that given the stigma and label of the 'suicidal' it's pretty sad how many people will simply ignore our stance and what we have to say (automatically discredit and discount us) before we even have a chance to defend our position. EG on Reddit has faced many scenarios similar to that and it is incredibly frustrating sometimes to even see the back and forth, ad hominems, logical fallacies, and just sheer ignorance of the normies when it comes to discussing the right to die in a constructive, productive manner. This is indeed yet another major hurdle that us pro-choicers have to face and in a more ideal situation, if we were similar to other marginalized groups (the minorities, women, disenfranchised groups of the past and present, etc.) at least we will have some credibility and be heard out before being judged or criticized preemptively.

As for the user, Praying 4 a Miracle, I've read many posts by that user and while there are some that I am in support, whether it is realistic or not is another matter altogether. I think the ideas are great on paper, but whether they can be successfully implemented or even campaigned for is still unknown.