Discussion If you're unhappy about not living a theoretical better life...

[Rounded Apathy]

...should it follow you should also be happy about not living a worse one?

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that we should all be cured of our suicidality by imagining how much worse things could be. I am positing that anyone should be as happy or unhappy about their circumstances as they are, but maybe these should be the only measures.

I do think it's much, much easier to feel sorrow about what is lacking in life that would make it better, especially for a lot like ourselves, and especially more if these are things that we have known and lost (Alfred Lord Tennyson can bite me on that one). But I think both this and the inverse tendency to not derive any positive feelings from imagined worse scenarios are, for better or worse, part of our neurobiological predisposition to be oriented toward improving our condition. If we were content to just it around thinking about how fine and dandy it is, for example, that we didn't have things like enough (healthy) food, a safe and comfortable living environment, a caring support system, a use of time and energy that makes us feel like our lives are worthwhile, I wonder if we might just die off en masse.

But would we? For those of us stuck in the abyss of despair, suffering, hopelessness, etc., couldn't the ability to derive substantial positive emotional outcomes from imagined shittier scenarios be helpful in efforts of healing, recovery, rising above our circumstances, or, well...just not killing ourselves, which is biologically what organisms are generally supposed to do? One big obstacle that comes to mind is the limiting combination of imagination and current circumstance: I believe there's a fairly wide and objective spectrum of human quality of life (though where a person falls can depend on a massively nebulous flux of criteria), so someone who's really got a shit deal might not be able to derive as much theoretical positive feeling from imagining life as worse because, well, in contrast with someone who's in a more central spot, there's less theoretical and more actual bad in their life.

This is something that's just been floating around in my brain for a while and thought it'd be neat to put it down and out into the world, mostly for sourcing other takes, perspective, experience, knowledge, whatever. I thought for a second of putting it in the main forum but am pretty sure it'd be torpedoes into oblivion by (not unjustifiably) hyper-emotional dismissive negativity, so instead I penned my first thread in this subforum. There are a lot of keen minds around these parts and I look forward to seeing some responses.

 

[MellowAvenue]

I've thought about this before. Here's the thing, personally I've never actually hit that point where I'm like "Oh man, my life is the worst ever," I know some people here have, and obviously that's OK, but I firmly believe in the mantra "Always someone better," as well as it's opposite "Always someone worse."

I can't find happiness in knowing that I don't have it the worst though. To me that's basically finding joy in other people's suffering, their failures, their insecurities, etc, and if I start doing that I feel no better than the people who used to bully and belittle me. Usually if I see or hear about that suffering it often makes me feel worse and further question whether life is worth living.

But would we? For those of us stuck in the abyss of despair, suffering, hopelessness, etc., couldn't the ability to derive substantial positive emotional outcomes from imagined shittier scenarios be helpful in efforts of healing, recovery, rising above our circumstances, or, well...just not killing ourselves, which is biologically what organisms are generally supposed to do?

A take on this coping method was actually pointed out to me. The person who did it I think called it "Catastrophizing." The idea was that when you are thinking of the absolute worst case scenarios for something just write down the cause and the worst possible effect, so for example:

"I missed a day of work so I'm gonna end up homeless on the side of the road eating roaches."

It's meant to make you laugh at the ridiculous leap in logic you are making by cutting out all the middle parts that it would take to actually get there and reassure you that most likely a lesser scenario will happen like:

"I missed a day of work so I'll get a point for bad attendance."

It probably works for some people, but for others once they've imagined the "eating roaches" scenario that's what they fixate on.

 

[makethepainstop]

I've thought about this before. Here's the thing, personally I've never actually hit that point where I'm like "Oh man, my life is the worst ever," I know some people here have, and obviously that's OK, but I firmly believe in the mantra "Always someone better," as well as it's opposite "Always someone worse."

I can't find happiness in knowing that I don't have it the worst though. To me that's basically finding joy in other people's suffering, their failures, their insecurities, etc, and if I start doing that I feel no better than the people who used to bully and belittle me. Usually if I see or hear about that suffering it often makes me feel worse and further question whether life is worth living.



A take on this coping method was actually pointed out to me. The person who did it I think called it "Catastrophizing." The idea was that when you are thinking of the absolute worst case scenarios for something just write down the cause and the worst possible effect, so for example:

"I missed a day of work so I'm gonna end up homeless on the side of the road eating roaches."

It's meant to make you laugh at the ridiculous leap in logic you are making by cutting out all the middle parts that it would take to actually get there and reassure you that most likely a lesser scenario will happen like:

"I missed a day of work so I'll get a point for bad attendance."

It probably works for some people, but for others once they've imagined the "eating roaches" scenario that's what they fixate on.

I like that, I don't feel better because others have it worse than me. I feel worse because so many others have it better than me. But in either case though do not improve my bank account, health, or love life!

 

[tardis]

Personally I don't think so:

I think this is making the mistake of only considering the relative quality
of life as opposed looking at it absolutely. You shouldn't feel bad because
your life could have been better, but you may feel bad if your life could
have been good, and it turned out bad. You don't have to be grateful because
you are impoverished as opposed to starving to death.

There is also the psychological aspect: If putting things in perspective helps
you feel better that's great. But for me, I just don't derive pleasure from
the knowledge that things can be worse. The fact that human misery has no
bounds doesn't really cheer me up.

 

[Rounded Apathy]

A take on this coping method was actually pointed out to me. The person who did it I think called it "Catastrophizing." The idea was that when you are thinking of the absolute worst case scenarios for something just write down the cause and the worst possible effect, so for example:

"I missed a day of work so I'm gonna end up homeless on the side of the road eating roaches."

It's meant to make you laugh at the ridiculous leap in logic you are making by cutting out all the middle parts that it would take to actually get there and reassure you that most likely a lesser scenario will happen like:

"I missed a day of work so I'll get a point for bad attendance."

It probably works for some people, but for others once they've imagined the "eating roaches" scenario that's what they fixate on.

I haven't heard of catastrophizing being used to refer to this kind of slippery slope scenario before. I wonder how useful it is; on its face it would seem like if the imagined worst case (whatever that was) is realistically quite far removed then it would be, but less so if it were less so. As in, if what you fear as the ultimate catastrophe isn't actually that far fetched, well...probably best to not try this!

I don't feel better because others have it worse than me. I feel worse because so many others have it better than me. But in either case though do not improve my bank account, health, or love life!

This...is literally the thing I was trying to make a case against. Why? These are both strictly hypothetical scenarios that could've applied to you; in a world with infinite possible alternative outcomes, you're equally likely to have been either better or worse off. Strictly logically speaking, how can you not feel good that things aren't worse, while actively feeling bad things aren't better? To restate something from the start of my post: "I am positing that anyone should be as happy or unhappy about their circumstances as they are, but maybe these should be the only measures."

You shouldn't feel bad because
your life could have been better, but you may feel bad if your life could
have been good, and it turned out bad.

This one also doesn't make sense to me. These read as exactly the same premise. Anyone's life "could have" been any number of possible alternative degrees and/or permutations of better or worse. As I said above, the crux of what I'm putting forth is that either both purely hypothetical better and worse possible lives should equally inform our dissatisfaction with our current one (which I don't think they do), or neither should (which I also don't think they do. I think most people in general, not just the suicidals, strongly incline to lamenting the have-nots as opposed to celebrating the haves, and that my only possible explanation for this was my evolutionarily-informed one...against which I tried to put forward a counterargument already.

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's funny people have mentioned catastrophizing here because I do tend to do that! It will be about future events though- not about my current circumstances. Normally it will be around something I feel responsible for... I'll make something as part of my job but catastrophize it breaks and maybe even hurts someone and people will blame me and maybe even sue. Weirdly, it doesn't make me feel that much better if it doesn't happen and I won't learn from it either- I'll worry just the same the next time round.

It does SOMETIMES work if I picture how much worse my life could be. I had gallstones years ago. I'm just grateful I don't have them now with the NHS in the state it's in.

Still- seeing as I'm a pessimist AND I catastrophize- picturing awful scenarios doesn't generally comfort me because- what's to stop them all happening tomorrow?!! Lol. I can sort of laugh at myself but when I'm REALLY worried- there's not much rationality to compensate.

 

[Rainy_days]

...should it follow you should also be happy about not living a worse one?

I notice a lot of people here believe that that shows a lack of empathy for the suffering of the world. I remember I used to think the same thing and felt very strongly about it. But for some reason my view has changed and I don't know if that's good or bad. Most evenings I watch the PBS Newshour, and it actually does lessen my suffering when I see people struggling against things like starvation, war, natural disasters, etc. I feel like even though my problems are painful and preoccupying to me, I am still in a very fortunate position compared to many millions of people. I honestly can't say whether that should be called gratitude or callousness.

 

[Pluto]

There's a bit to this topic. I can't give a solid answer but can add a few points.

* Our culture is very biased towards social comparisons. Those at the top of the status/looks/wealth spectrum, such as the British royal family, are constantly in our faces, leading to everyone else being various gradations of inferior. This does not mean that comparing ourselves to other people, and deriving fundamental value in life from social comparison, is the only way a society or an individual can operate, nor is it even a good idea. Yet we are discouraged from pursuing alternatives.

* Loss aversion is a very real psychological phenomenon in which we suffer far more from losing something than an equivalent gain brings us joy. Perhaps this extends to a bias towards wishing for what is absent and taking for granted what is not.

* It is in our nature to be unable to genuinely put ourselves in the shoes of another. If it were possible for, say, someone young to live a full day as someone old, they may gain newfound appreciation for youthful vigor and be motivated to make the most of their blessings. But there is no means of achieving this.

See also: Explanatory Style.

 

[qiuyu]

I hate it when people try to console me with mindsets like this. Cus it sounds more like excuse for impotence than anything. But when it's discussed on a forum in a collected and reasonable way I can understand your point. It makes sense

 

[Disaster]

I seriously doubt a person could basically guilt-trip oneself into more positivity, even though this is exactly what toxic positivity attempts to achieve. To reduce it to pure absurd (which it already is anyway): there is one person in the world who is the most miserable of all, and everyone else should just shut up and cheer up thanks to this persons misery.
It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. We don't feel certain feelings or stop to experience other feelings just because we "should" to. Just like you don't stop to feel physical pain, itching, pleasure, whatever, because you will find a reason why you're "supposed" to experience it differently. If my goddamn coffee will contain salt instead of sugar, pondering over the fact that maybe someone has even saltier coffee than mine won't make my coffee sweet.