Discussion Interesting study shows that a large portion of men who kill themselves have no history of mental illness

[ThatStateOfMind]

I found this really interesting article which I will link at the bottom of this post.

The study is really interesting and details facts and statistics regarding men's mental health which I figured may resonate with people here. The study is from UCLA and shows that around 60% of the men who commit suicide have no record or prior history of mental health issues, which challenges the traditional perception of suicide. Men without mental health issues were more likely to use a firearm and also typically had alcohol in their system. The article goes on to state that men make up 80% of suicide deaths in the U.S. The study was led by Professor Mark Kaplan, and the research analyzed data from over 70,000 U.S. male suicide cases from 2016 to 2018

In three of the four age groups studied, which was adolescents (10-17 years old), young adults (18-34), middle-aged adults (35-64), and older adults (65+), there was an interesting find. Amongst adolescents, young adults, and middle-aged adults, more commonly experienced relationship problems, arguments or another type of personal crisis which are believed to have led to it. I believe this also suggests an impulsivity, but that's just my opinion. Then again, the study also agrees and said, "...particularly for teens and young adults, who may be more prone to act impulsively."

Anyways, I don't want to summarize the whole article and if you're interested, I feel that summarizing would take away from reading it. It's pretty brief, so should be a quick read. The article is linked here (click to read)

 

[hopelesswanderer]

Hmm. Could be that men (I'm guessing) and people in general don't always have documented diagnoses and thus would have no "history" Of mental illness due to stigma of seeking help. My guess is many are financial related - debt gambling losing a job economic crisis etc. ppl were jumping in front of trains in 08. But I could also see your point about impulsivity being a big driver for anyone but especially the young and especially when coupled w alcohol

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Couldn't that be explained by men potentially being less likely to seek out mental resources, thus leading to there being issues of underdiagnosis of mental conditions in men? I might try reading the study sometime later, after my midterm.

Anyway, the main reason I wanted to post here is because I wanted to share this ad I saw while skimming through the article.

Look at how glorious it is! I regret not clicking on it. This event is my 13th reason why.

 

[astr4]

a family friend killed himself not for any mental health reasons but purely financial ones. i was a kid when it happened and it changed my views on the world for the worse. i suspect money would solve the suicidal thoughts of a significant portion of us.

 

[PurPurAstie]

i've noticed that a lot, it's just the way the society is built, men generally don't speak about any of their problems due to it being seen as something shameful(and people do shame them!), they mindlessly do what they're told or need to. women are more on a complaining and chatty side however, not doing much. it's just the way people have shaped the world, sadly.
another study also confirms this, that females generally choose CTB methods that are less likely to kill them, i've noticed that in me too. idk what's up with that.

 

[ThatStateOfMind]

Hmm. Could be that men (I'm guessing) and people in general don't always have documented diagnoses and thus would have no "history" Of mental illness due to stigma of seeking help. My guess is many are financial related - debt gambling losing a job economic crisis etc. ppl were jumping in front of trains in 08. But I could also see your point about impulsivity being a big driver for anyone but especially the young and especially when coupled w alcohol

I realize I didn't communicate this in my post, but I largely agree with this take. I think it's because of the stigma regarding men and receiving mental health.

Couldn't that be explained by men potentially being less likely to seek out mental resources, thus leading to there being issues of underdiagnosis of mental conditions in men? I might try reading the study sometime later, after my midterm.

Anyway, the main reason I wanted to post here is because I wanted to share this ad I saw while skimming through the article.
View attachment 151631
Look at how glorious it is! I regret not clicking on it. This event is my 13th reason why.

What a beautiful sight to be blessed with, old men working out is exactly what I want to see

i've noticed that a lot, it's just the way the society is built, men generally don't speak about any of their problems due to it being seen as something shameful(and people do shame them!), they mindlessly do what they're told or need to. women are more on a complaining and chatty side however, not doing much. it's just the way people have shaped the world, sadly.
another study also confirms this, that females generally choose CTB methods that are less likely to kill them, i've noticed that in me too. idk what's up with that.

Yeah, it's present in my region where men don't receive treatment generally (very rural area). I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if I'm one of the first in my family. I didn't know about the other study where women choose methods that are less lethal. I'm not certain why that might be though.

 

[HopeToStay]

There's a theory that men have a more "winner takes all" deal in life.

That successful men are the most privileged in society, but "loser" men are at the bottom rung and are largely undesired by anyone. And this is the area that are susceptible to suicide, not because of mental health disorders per se, but an objective evaluation that their life sucks.

All just a theory and generalisation of course. I wouldn't ever wish to suggest that either gender isn't capable of experiencing a terrible quality of life, from mental health disorders or otherwise.

 

[Forever Sleep]

i've noticed that a lot, it's just the way the society is built, men generally don't speak about any of their problems due to it being seen as something shameful(and people do shame them!), they mindlessly do what they're told or need to. women are more on a complaining and chatty side however, not doing much. it's just the way people have shaped the world, sadly.
another study also confirms this, that females generally choose CTB methods that are less likely to kill them, i've noticed that in me too. idk what's up with that.

Yes, I've read that kind of thing too. That women (generally) have better peer support systems. Men feel less willing to admit they are struggling maybe.

I've also read that women tend to opt for less violent/brutal methods- which are sometimes less effective- eg. pill overdoses. Not so sure these are just gestures or 'cries for help', although in some cases, they may be. They may just be badly researched, impulsive or, based on assumptions they will work. The films and TV make it look so simple! I've also read that some women are more concerned about their physical looks- even as a corpse! They maybe won't choose a method that is so brutal/ messy.

I wonder how the male to female suicide ratio compares in countries that don't have firearms so readily accessible. I think in the majority of countries, it's still more men that suicide but interestingly, I think I've read that women attempt more. With things like SN and inert gas, I wonder if the gender gap will start to close.

That doesn't surprise me though- that men and women with no history of mental health issues suicide. To be honest, I'm so sick of suicide being automatically attributed to mental illness. Not to say it never is but- I just feel it's such a cop out. It puts most of the onnus on the individual. It ignores why they may be struggling. Even if they want to blame depression- Why were they depressed? It basically says: (to my mind) There's nothing wrong with society/ this world. If you can't hack it then- it's your brain that's deficient.

That isn't helpful for anyone. It means the reasons people are that unhappy/ dissatisfied aren't highlighted and aren't addressed. Plus- it doesn't do the 'normies' any favours either. It's probably easier for them to distance themselves from it if they can blame a brain abnormality and not a very common situation- financial problems, relationship breakups, bereavement, dissatisfaction with life in a capitalist/ consumerist society.

 

[NikolaiK]

I think men have more of a need for independence and self reliance. A debilitating illness or financial situation that takes way our ability to look after ourselves and makes us dependent on others goes agianst our nature, we feel bad to be a burden on others. Women have a much easier time being looked after by others, they probably thrive on it. Men are the opposite, it's just the way it is, not trying to psycho-analyse or deconstruct masculinity.

 

[brokeandbroken]

There's a theory that men have a more "winner takes all" deal in life.

That successful men are the most privileged in society, but "loser" men are at the bottom rung and are largely undesired by anyone. And this is the area that are susceptible to suicide, not because of mental health disorders per se, but an objective evaluation that their life sucks.

All just a theory and generalisation of course. I wouldn't ever wish to suggest that either gender isn't capable of experiencing a terrible quality of life, from mental health disorders or otherwise.

It's this.

Plus lack of societal help and lack of empathy. Life isn't forgiving but far less so if you are a man. The world doesn't give a fuck about men end of story. No wonder they kill themselves. I was in medical school last in 2022. I didn't fail out I didn't screw up, nope. Victim of crimes by the medical school. Family abandoned me, can't get a job (700+ job apps let alone a good paying job), insane debt because I had no family support and had to take on loans, no one gives a shit about me.

I'm basically homeless. You think people care about me? Lol. No. I have no friends. You think women look at me like I'm a catch. No because of the size of my... Bank account.

I was president of the oncology research group. I was on track to be objectively successful and frankly to even get there I had to be to at least some degree. Someone came alone and took it from me. No empathy, no one cares, no one in my corner, just nothing. My families reason for not helping "because", "what's in it for me", and "don't want to". Not I wish I could or i can't make it work financially.

My life who I am as person is inconsequential to the world. My hopes, dreams, aspirations, and the work I put in. Gone because of people's greed. The days of my life and my happiness gone. You think people care nope. You bet your ass if i was a woman I'd have people all over the fucking place coming to support me. If someone found a former medical student who was the victim of crimes, wasn't using drugs just broke and had no support. I can't imagine the insane amount of support she'd have. Just because she has a vagina. The support I get is 0. Literally *0*.

I'm surprised more men don't kill themselves honestly. If you aren't perfect and news flash no one is you are nothing.

 

[sevennn]

Couldn't that be explained by men potentially being less likely to seek out mental resources, thus leading to there being issues of underdiagnosis of mental conditions in men? I might try reading the study sometime later, after my midterm.

Anyway, the main reason I wanted to post here is because I wanted to share this ad I saw while skimming through the article.
View attachment 151631
Look at how glorious it is! I regret not clicking on it. This event is my 13th reason why.

nooo not the grandpas succumbing to unrealistic beauty standards honestly you don't have to have mental illness to kys. i'm convinced most that kill themselves don't have any mental illness. idk i don't have the statistics, there are so many other things besides mental illness: physical illness, grief, poverty, stressful job, divorce, domestic violence. etc. yeah all of them could bring mental illness but i feel like it's the deciding factor sometimes that isn't mental illness. it's just a very simple approach for the world to think that we are just crazy

 

[EvisceratedJester]

nooo not the grandpas succumbing to unrealistic beauty standards honestly you don't have to have mental illness to kys. i'm convinced most that kill themselves don't have any mental illness. idk i don't have the statistics, there are so many other things besides mental illness: physical illness, grief, poverty, stressful job, divorce, domestic violence. etc. yeah all of them could bring mental illness but i feel like it's the deciding factor sometimes that isn't mental illness. it's just a very simple approach for the world to think that we are just crazy

I do agree that there are probably a lot of people in general who don't kill themselves due to mental illness (hell, I'm suicidal and I'm not mentally ill), however, I feel like it is important to note some other factors that may impact the results of the study. It's easy to say that "X percentage of men who kill themselves have no history of mental illness" when you don't bother taking into consideration certain factors, such as men potentially being less likely to seek out mental healthcare or issues with diagnostic tools that may lead to men being underdiagnosed when it comes to certain mental illnesses. Of course, I haven't gotten around to reading the study so I don't know if they did anything to address these potential issues, but they are worth noting.

 

[noname37]

there are many reasons why someone would commit suicide and it has nothing to do with mental illness

 

[willitpass]

While I know that mental illness is far from the only cause for suicide, I also believe that there are many, many male suicides caused by undiagnosed/untreated mental illness. Men are far less likely to seek professional help for any problems, especially something like depression, that may cause them to be seen as weak. So suicides that seem to have no cause or attributed to relationship problems or such may well be depression or another mental illness, they just never told anyone and thus never had a diagnosis. On the whole, women are far more likely to seek help prior to any attempt, thus giving them a history when they succeed.

 

[ham and potatoes]

they just never told anyone and thus never had a diagnosis

Yeah, as a guy, I feel like this is a huge thing. Hell, most of my friends have no clue how bad things are, just not something I feel comfortable talking about with em.
Plus, I think things like financial problems can effect men more, as for most men, they've always been portrayed as "providers" for their family, so when they can't provide, they see themselves as failures

 

[willitpass]

Yeah, as a guy, I feel like this is a huge thing. Hell, most of my friends have no clue how bad things are, just not something I feel comfortable talking about with em.
Plus, I think things like financial problems can effect men more, as for most men, they've always been portrayed as "providers" for their family, so when they can't provide, they see themselves as failures

As a woman, I no longer tell anyone about things, but if I did I know there would be a lot more candid conversations and acceptance than if I were a man. I am, however, a fully financially independent woman, and while money is tight right now, I'm still making do. But if things were to get into dire straights (and with the way the economy is going they may well) I would absolutely take all of it onto myself. The concept of being independent and not asking for help from others financially was instilled into me growing up, nothing to do with male vs female. It was taught to me from a young age that you provide for yourself and don't make it someone else's problem.

 

[L'absent]

On the other hand, those who do not wish to commit suicide suffer from some form of mental illness. Copernicus said that reality is more or less the reverse of common sense.

 

[bitofftoomuch]

I think on a societal level we're taught that women are emotional and are supposed to put a lot of work into handling it, and that men aren't supposed to be emotional but instead strong alphas. Women's unhappiness is seen as a problem they must solve, while men's unhappiness is seen as an indication of failure. So it makes sense with this setup that mentally unwell men would be more inclined to pursue CTB'ing over seeking therapy, and thus would CTB undiagnosed.

I don't necessarily think this "favors" women; a lot of us wind up stuck in painful lives as a result of this mindset, but I don't think it's healthy for men either. Really we all need to be more accepting of the fact that many humans are broken and need help. The current gendered duality hurts both men and women as well as I'm sure leaves NB people confused.

 

[Redacted24]

I wonder how much loneliness comes into play. There's lots of studies about how older men tend to lose their friendships over time due to many factors and this can make them feel unwanted and irrelevant to society.
That could be a factor in the carried out impulsiveness. Thoughts?

 

[ThatStateOfMind]

I think on a societal level we're taught that women are emotional and are supposed to put a lot of work into handling it, and that men aren't supposed to be emotional but instead strong alphas. Women's unhappiness is seen as a problem they must solve, while men's unhappiness is seen as an indication of failure. So it makes sense with this setup that mentally unwell men would be more inclined to pursue CTB'ing over seeking therapy, and thus would CTB undiagnosed.

I don't necessarily think this "favors" women; a lot of us wind up stuck in painful lives as a result of this mindset, but I don't think it's healthy for men either. Really we all need to be more accepting of the fact that many humans are broken and need help. The current gendered duality hurts both men and women as well as I'm sure leaves NB people confused.

Yeah, I didn't intend for this to come across as divisive on the basis of gender in case it did, I just found it to be an interesting statistic that I figured I would share here. I agree though, many humans as a whole, regardless of race, gender, and sexuality, are suffering and in need of some sort of aid.

I wonder how much loneliness comes into play. There's lots of studies about how older men tend to lose their friendships over time due to many factors and this can make them feel unwanted and irrelevant to society.
That could be a factor in the carried out impulsiveness. Thoughts?

Could be possible, though it's usually noted that the younger generations are typically more impulsive as well as also less likely to disclose their thoughts. I think loneliness plays a factor for sure though.

 

[TAW122]

I read the article and of course, sadly, the author is so heavily focused on CTB prevention rather than why people actually CTB let alone solutions to fix that. Furthermore, I found a comment that actually resonates with me and sums up the situation well,



Basically, this means that the causes for CTB are things outside of mental illness, but people like to use the buzz phrase to divert attention and ignore the actual causes for CTB while also stigmatizing and further demonizing (once they slap on the label or steer the conversation to mental health, all considerations of other factors are ignored) of said already marginalized and suffering individuals...

 

[sugarb]

I imagine many of them were just undiagnosed for something or other, or what they had wasn't considered an illness.

If they were higher functioning autistics, for example, they may've gone undiagnosed their whole lives. autistics have reaaaally high suicide rates, for various reasons-

- rates of isolation and friendlessness for autistics of both genders is insane
- a LARGE MAJORITY of autistic women have been sexually assaulted; according to some statistics it's a full 9 OUT OF 10. Much higher than avg
- autistic men who aren't savants or nearly NT are pretty close to the bottom rung of society, often ostracized as being freaks, incels, losers, pussies, weirdos, future school shooters, etc, etc, etc. no wonder we kill ourselves so much lol lots of people hate us, we get bullied at like 2x the usual rate for a reason
- trauma/isolation/childhood bullying/etc all correlate highly with depression and suicide

Were it not for my parents fighting for me to get some IEP help and etc I never would've been diagnosed and I when I eventually died it'd've been counted as an NT death, I imagine the same's true of many people

also as others have said guys are less likely to ask for help

 

[Tonkpils]

I imagine many of them were just undiagnosed for something or other, or what they had wasn't considered an illness.

If they were higher functioning autistics, for example, they may've gone undiagnosed their whole lives. autistics have reaaaally high suicide rates, for various reasons-

- rates of isolation and friendlessness for autistics of both genders is insane
- a LARGE MAJORITY of autistic women have been sexually assaulted; according to some statistics it's a full 9 OUT OF 10. Much higher than avg
- autistic men who aren't savants or nearly NT are pretty close to the bottom rung of society, often ostracized as being freaks, incels, losers, pussies, weirdos, future school shooters, etc, etc, etc. no wonder we kill ourselves so much lol lots of people hate us, we get bullied at like 2x the usual rate for a reason
- trauma/isolation/childhood bullying/etc all correlate highly with depression and suicide

Were it not for my parents fighting for me to get some IEP help and etc I never would've been diagnosed and I when I eventually died it'd've been counted as an NT death, I imagine the same's true of many people

also as others have said guys are less likely to ask for help

As a late diagnosed autistic male I feel seen by this post. Thank you for putting it so well, my brain turns to mush whenever I try to write things out.

 

[ThatStateOfMind]

I read the article and of course, sadly, the author is so heavily focused on CTB prevention rather than why people actually CTB let alone solutions to fix that. Furthermore, I found a comment that actually resonates with me and sums up the situation well,

View attachment 152922

Basically, this means that the causes for CTB are things outside of mental illness, but people like to use the buzz phrase to divert attention and ignore the actual causes for CTB while also stigmatizing and further demonizing (once they slap on the label or steer the conversation to mental health, all considerations of other factors are ignored) of said already marginalized and suffering individuals...

Yeah it's very unfortunate that instead of getting to the root of the issue, it's saddening that it's simply blamed on mental illness. Mental illness may play a part but we should look at what's causing the mental illness. It's hard not to look at the state of the world and be depressed at how it is.

I imagine many of them were just undiagnosed for something or other, or what they had wasn't considered an illness.

If they were higher functioning autistics, for example, they may've gone undiagnosed their whole lives. autistics have reaaaally high suicide rates, for various reasons-

- rates of isolation and friendlessness for autistics of both genders is insane
- a LARGE MAJORITY of autistic women have been sexually assaulted; according to some statistics it's a full 9 OUT OF 10. Much higher than avg
- autistic men who aren't savants or nearly NT are pretty close to the bottom rung of society, often ostracized as being freaks, incels, losers, pussies, weirdos, future school shooters, etc, etc, etc. no wonder we kill ourselves so much lol lots of people hate us, we get bullied at like 2x the usual rate for a reason
- trauma/isolation/childhood bullying/etc all correlate highly with depression and suicide

Were it not for my parents fighting for me to get some IEP help and etc I never would've been diagnosed and I when I eventually died it'd've been counted as an NT death, I imagine the same's true of many people

also as others have said guys are less likely to ask for help

This is new information to me, I didn't know autistic people had such a high suicide rate. I knew a guy in high school with autism who was indeed ostracized for no reason other than autism making him a little strange. I sat next to him in a coding class and walked him through a few things because he was struggling and people got upset with him when he asked the teacher because it would put the class on hold.

I'm not saying this with some sort of savior complex or anything, I say it because I fail to understand why people seemed to dislike this guy for no reason. He wasn't a bad guy or anything, never did anything wrong, people just didn't like him and it really perplexed me. He seems to be doing better now that he's out of high school, though, more out of his shell.

 

[sugarb]

As a late diagnosed autistic male I feel seen by this post. Thank you for putting it so well, my brain turns to mush whenever I try to write things out.

Hey no problem man :) I get that

 

[pariah80]

Suicidality and mental illness are actually rarely synonymous.

 

[sugarb]

This is new information to me, I didn't know autistic people had such a high suicide rate. I knew a guy in high school with autism who was indeed ostracized for no reason other than autism making him a little strange. I sat next to him in a coding class and walked him through a few things because he was struggling and people got upset with him when he asked the teacher because it would put the class on hold.

I'm not saying this with some sort of savior complex or anything, I say it because I fail to understand why people seemed to dislike this guy for no reason. He wasn't a bad guy or anything, never did anything wrong, people just didn't like him and it really perplexed me. He seems to be doing better now that he's out of high school, though, more out of his shell.

Suicide - Autism research | Autistica | Autistica

Autistica is funding research to understand suicidality in autism

www.autistica.org.uk

it's disturbing stuff. All statistics about autistic QoL are disturbing, really. I wouldn't suggest looking into the specifics because it's upsetting (I wish I hadn't, but I'm autistic, so it might not affect you as much) but in short- most people instinctively dislike and move to exclude us with 10 seconds of meeting (studies have been done on this in both children and adults; made me recontextualize my whole childhood) and because of that we suffer immensely at every level of life and have a more than decent chance of dying alone

That was nice of you :) I hope he's ok

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Suicide - Autism research | Autistica | Autistica

Autistica is funding research to understand suicidality in autism

www.autistica.org.uk

it's disturbing stuff. All statistics about autistic QoL are disturbing, really. I wouldn't suggest looking into the specifics because it's upsetting (I wish I hadn't, but I'm autistic, so it might not affect you as much) but in short- most people instinctively dislike and move to exclude us with 10 seconds of meeting (studies have been done on this in both children and adults; made me recontextualize my whole childhood) and because of that we suffer immensely at every level of life and have a more than decent chance of dying alone

That was nice of you :) I hope he's ok

Waste of funding. They should have given that money to me. The reasons are already fucking obvious.

 

[sugarb]

Waste of funding. They should have given that money to me. The reasons are already fucking obvious.

huh? wdym? The research? I mean I think it's pretty important, this is kind of a silent crisis and the sooner it's made too big for the world to ignore the better
i understand where you're coming from though

 

[LaVieEnRose]

huh? wdym? The research? I mean I think it's pretty important, this is kind of a silent crisis and the sooner it's made too big for the world to ignore the better
i understand where you're coming from though

I am just being bitter.

"but there is little research into why this is."

I can tell them why, easily.

That is what I mean.

I am doubtful as to utility especially since it's not likely to lead to assisted death or prophylactic measures. People will broadly continue to not care or understand, those who should no exception.

Again. Bitter.

One SS user who died some years ago and who became one of the well-known cases that people opposed to this site rallied around literally cited autism and how we fare in society as a primary motivation and it did nothing.