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moondazed

moondazed

ex nihilo nihil fit
Oct 14, 2023
169
altruism
1: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others charitable acts motivated purely by altruism
2: behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

In undergrad I learned about these organisms called slime molds, they are very cool and I've been obsessed with them for awhile.




Slime mold apparently exhibit altruism, sacrificing themselves for another. Its incredibly strange to understand and is explained pretty well at about 6 minutes in the first video. There's a good paper on it here (official source with paywall) or here (sci-hub/no paywall).

It's a strange idea, something such as the slime molds, an organism without a brain let alone much of a body, exhibiting "altruistic" behavior. There have been a lot of other studies on other animals and if they can display altruism too.

The introduction of a really good article from Stanford:
In evolutionary biology, an organism is said to behave altruistically when its behaviour benefits other organisms, at a cost to itself. The costs and benefits are measured in terms of reproductive fitness, or expected number of offspring. So by behaving altruistically, an organism reduces the number of offspring it is likely to produce itself, but boosts the number that other organisms are likely to produce. This biological notion of altruism is not identical to the everyday concept. In everyday parlance, an action would only be called 'altruistic' if it was done with the conscious intention of helping another. But in the biological sense there is no such requirement. Indeed, some of the most interesting examples of biological altruism are found among creatures that are (presumably) not capable of conscious thought at all, e.g. insects. For the biologist, it is the consequences of an action for reproductive fitness that determine whether the action counts as altruistic, not the intentions, if any, with which the action is performed.

Altruistic behaviour is common throughout the animal kingdom, particularly in species with complex social structures. For example, vampire bats regularly regurgitate blood and donate it to other members of their group who have failed to feed that night, ensuring they do not starve. In numerous bird species, a breeding pair receives help in raising its young from other 'helper' birds, who protect the nest from predators and help to feed the fledglings. Vervet monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked. In social insect colonies (ants, wasps, bees and termites), sterile workers devote their whole lives to caring for the queen, constructing and protecting the nest, foraging for food, and tending the larvae. Such behaviour is maximally altruistic: sterile workers obviously do not leave any offspring of their own—so have personal fitness of zero—but their actions greatly assist the reproductive efforts of the queen.

From a Darwinian viewpoint, the existence of altruism in nature is at first sight puzzling, as Darwin himself realized. Natural selection leads us to expect animals to behave in ways that increase their own chances of survival and reproduction, not those of others. But by behaving altruistically an animal reduces its own fitness, so should be at a selective disadvantage vis-à-vis one which behaves selfishly. To see this, imagine that some members of a group of Vervet monkeys give alarm calls when they see predators, but others do not. Other things being equal, the latter will have an advantage. By selfishly refusing to give an alarm call, a monkey can reduce the chance that it will itself be attacked, while at the same time benefiting from the alarm calls of others. So we should expect natural selection to favour those monkeys that do not give alarm calls over those that do. But this raises an immediate puzzle. How did the alarm-calling behaviour evolve in the first place, and why has it not been eliminated by natural selection? How can the existence of altruism be reconciled with basic Darwinian principles?

So there's a lot of debate on it whether it's genetic and instinctual, as we tend to view the natural world from the scientific lens. Altruism and how it persists throughout life in so many different species is confusing when Darwinian natural selection should tell us it would not persist. It's funny there's two definitions. What we call altruism in humans is more of a conscious choice, while altruism in animals is simply a reaction. I find it funny we want to separate ourselves from nature so much.

So is altruism actually just a self-serving cope to gain social credibility? Do animals have their own kind of psychology/consciousness and make these altruistic decisions, be it for greater good or selfish intent? Is it just instinct and genetics? Why wouldn't something like this get selected against in evolution? Is it even real or is it all just random? Scientists and psychologists can't seem to figure it out.
 
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obligatoryshackles

I don't want to get used to it.
Aug 11, 2023
160
Why would being altruistic be selected against in evolution? At the very least, altruism in human behavior tends to be beneficial to groups. Being reflexively altruistic allows people to form trust in groups and creates more social cohesion. A group filling various niches is far more successful than individuals ever will be. If anything, those who are not altruistic by nature would be selected against in a social animal's behavior. If you're not going to help the group, you get kicked out and fail to reproduce or just die.

People literally get the good chemicals in their brain when they do altruism. That's usually enough of a motivation to be a good person, once you learn it. It's fundamentally selfish - it's just that evolutionary pressures have created a brain chemistry reward for being "altruistic". There is no "real" altruism where someone truly does something altruistic for no reward of any kind. Even if you're doing it because you hate yourself or something, it's chasing a sense of catharsis - a selfish reward.
 
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tiger b

tiger b

AI without the I
Oct 24, 2023
1,236
Hi

I only very slightly disagree with this:

'There is no "real" altruism where someone truly does something altruistic for no reward of any kind.'

It's rare, but it does happen, in my opinion. Somebody does something kind just because they can, and it doesn't put someone out. It's just an option chosen neutrally, which doesn't bring in a warm feeling nor slavishly obeying some social norm.

So, I would suggest real (rare) altruism means everything to the assisted and nothing at all to the provider, it's just a 'might as well right now, because I have a meaningless choice in a meaningless world' option.

Just my 2ps
 
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obligatoryshackles

I don't want to get used to it.
Aug 11, 2023
160
Hi

I only very slightly disagree with this:

'There is no "real" altruism where someone truly does something altruistic for no reward of any kind.'

It's rare, but it does happen, in my opinion. Somebody does something kind just because they can, and it doesn't put someone out. It's just an option chosen neutrally, which doesn't bring in a warm feeling nor slavishly obeying some social norm.

So, I would suggest real (rare) altruism means everything to the assisted and nothing at all to the provider, it's just a 'might as well right now, because I have a meaningless choice in a meaningless world' option.

Just my 2ps
Hmm, that could be true depending on definition. Instinctual altruism in humans is likely created by evolutionary pressures, so in a perfectly neutral situation where the cost and benefit of both choices are equal it makes sense to choose "help" rather than "do nothing". But unconscious as it may, I would suggest that it is nonetheless an emotional choice derived from our internal reward/punishment mechanisms and therefore not "real".

An alternative idea is that it could also be derived from avoiding guilt rather than chasing a good feeling.

"If I didn't help in this situation, it would haunt me later."

In this case the altruism does not result in a positive gain but rather an avoidance of a negative.
 
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Spiritual survivor

Spiritual survivor

A born again but occasionally suicidal
Feb 13, 2022
509
I might get altruism and empathy confused but I think it's kind of similar. The other day I stopped at a gas station and as I went to pump my gas this guy comes over to me. He noticed that the headlamp covers on my car were very foggy. He asked me if I wanted that fixed. I shit u not. The guy pulls out a buffer machine tool and some buffing agent and made my headlamp covers clear again. In my mind this was an act of altruism. He was not expecting me to pay him but I did give him some money for doing that for me. I needed that done bad as u can now be pulled over if your headlights are too dim. That was a strange incident 😂 how often does someone just walk up to u to help u out and u never asked. So yes I do believe it exists. These days the trait of empathy is discouraged out of the population, because if u have that trait u are going to have a harder time functioning in this system. People who lack empathy will be more successful in a system like this, they are far less sensitive, they view relationships as transactions and u as an object that either serves them or doesn't. If u cease to be of use to a low empathic person they just discard u like a broken appliance.
 
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moondazed

moondazed

ex nihilo nihil fit
Oct 14, 2023
169
I might get altruism and empathy confused but I think it's kind of similar. The other day I stopped at a gas station and as I went to pump my gas this guy comes over to me. He noticed that the headlamp covers on my car were very foggy. He asked me if I wanted that fixed. I shit u not. The guy pulls out a buffer machine tool and some buffing agent and made my headlamp covers clear again. In my mind this was an act of altruism. He was not expecting me to pay him but I did give him some money for doing that for me. I needed that done bad as u can now be pulled over if your headlights are too dim. That was a strange incident 😂 how often does someone just walk up to u to help u out and u never asked. So yes I do believe it exists. These days the trait of empathy is discouraged out of the population, because if u have that trait u are going to have a harder time functioning in this system. People who lack empathy will be more successful in a system like this, they are far less sensitive, they view relationships as transactions and u as an object that either serves them or doesn't. If u cease to be of use to a low empathic person they just discard u like a broken appliance.
Our society definitely does not encourage altruism, and in terms of empathy it probably encourages conditional empathy. Only be empathetic to those who hold the same beliefs as you, political or otherwise.

I notice lot of online discourse ends up just being virtue signaling for your respective camp and to get those sweet sweet internet points.

Scientists recognize that altruism, especially amongst animals, reduces your ability to pass on your genetics. Many people are purely determinists and as such altruistic / empathetic traits would be mostly genetically based, and if that were the case it should be selected against an eventually disappear. Maybe that actually is happening. Maybe it was much more important to survival in the past before modern consumerist culture, and maybe that's why we see much more mean and selfish people, because they are the ones breeding.

Or, maybe it's something that goes beyond the body and physical. Maybe we all have access to it we just need to learn how.

Glad you ran into such a friendly stranger! Those moments are precious
 
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Spiritual survivor

Spiritual survivor

A born again but occasionally suicidal
Feb 13, 2022
509
Our society definitely does not encourage altruism, and in terms of empathy it probably encourages conditional empathy. Only be empathetic to those who hold the same beliefs as you, political or otherwise.

I notice lot of online discourse ends up just being virtue signaling for your respective camp and to get those sweet sweet internet points.

Scientists recognize that altruism, especially amongst animals, reduces your ability to pass on your genetics. Many people are purely determinists and as such altruistic / empathetic traits would be mostly genetically based, and if that were the case it should be selected against an eventually disappear. Maybe that actually is happening. Maybe it was much more important to survival in the past before modern consumerist culture, and maybe that's why we see much more mean and selfish people, because they are the ones breeding.

Or, maybe it's something that goes beyond the body and physical. Maybe we all have access to it we just need to learn how.

Glad you ran into such a friendly stranger! Those moments are precious
I almost tear up thinking about it. I just thought that was so sweet of someone to just be randomly considerate looking out for others. This man was not even the same race as myself. So that was even more unexpected. But he wasn't acting creepy or expecting something from me like to exploit me. He had a dog with him who was missing a front leg. He tied the dog temporarily to a post as he was buffing my car lamps. I petted the dog as he was doing his thing. I'll never forget. 🥰
 
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obligatoryshackles

I don't want to get used to it.
Aug 11, 2023
160
Our society definitely does not encourage altruism, and in terms of empathy it probably encourages conditional empathy. Only be empathetic to those who hold the same beliefs as you, political or otherwise.

I notice lot of online discourse ends up just being virtue signaling for your respective camp and to get those sweet sweet internet points.

Scientists recognize that altruism, especially amongst animals, reduces your ability to pass on your genetics. Many people are purely determinists and as such altruistic / empathetic traits would be mostly genetically based, and if that were the case it should be selected against an eventually disappear. Maybe that actually is happening. Maybe it was much more important to survival in the past before modern consumerist culture, and maybe that's why we see much more mean and selfish people, because they are the ones breeding.

Or, maybe it's something that goes beyond the body and physical. Maybe we all have access to it we just need to learn how.

Glad you ran into such a friendly stranger! Those moments are precious
Human "altruism" was developed for a much different situation than modern society. After all, it is the result of millions of years of pre civilized existence. Groups of cavemen who for thousands of generations lived in tribes where insufficient altruistic behavior would get you kicked out of the group, where you more or less had to fit in and play nice or you would straight up die, abandoned to nature. Given how vastly different human life is today, that naturally means those internal mechanisms will get very messy with the way the world works for us today.

I think stuff like virtue signaling is actually based on the exact same mechanisms as that ancient altruistic instinct that we've developed. It just became horrifically warped because today we're exposed to many orders of magnitude more people, and more importantly, strangers, than our brains were developed to handle. Physically close, personal interactions with groups that you can't really get away from without dying just don't exist anymore. Not to mention the totally different nature of resource scarcity today.

I think generalizing altruism as being bad in animals into it being bad for humans is a gross oversimplification as well. Of course altruism would be bad for the average solitary animal for whom other members of its own species are active competitors. But humans (and many other social animals) are not solitary animals who live only for their own survival. Altruism should actually generally be a positive trait in pack animals and tribal animals, where the survival of the group depends on more than just individuals. Bees and ants straight up sacrifice themselves for their hives. Dolphins are so generally altruistic that they sometimes even help drowning humans. Elephant herds look out for one another within the group. These are all animals that have existed for millions of years, developing altruism as a positive trait and not having it be selected against. Else they would have died out long ago.

It's not that humans have genetically drifted away from altruism, but that the mechanisms that make us altruistic are very easy to exploit. "Pay for this tree to offset your carbon!" "Show that you're kind by saying the thing your tribe agrees with!" "Donate to this cause so you're not a bad person!" and many other such things easily turn on our instinctive altruism in unproductive ways. It's the expression of the very same trait in a vastly different setting that makes us seem so much less altruistic.

I will also reiterate my belief that all humans are fundamentally selfish. There's no such thing as an unselfish human. And frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't get why there has to be a moral judgement on the natural state of a being. We're just built that way.

Humans being more mean today is actually pretty natural too, since there are so many disagreements in our lives. Long ago, if someone in your tribe was being disagreeable, everyone else would be mean to them until they left or they changed. But today, we can't do that anymore. There are billions of people who disagree with you and no matter how mean you are, you can't kick them off the internet or make them feel the need to change. We're naturally mean to those people, because that's what we're programmed to do by tribal existence requiring harmonious (if strained) cooperation. It's just that it can't achieve the intended effect of it in the world we live in today.
 
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moondazed

moondazed

ex nihilo nihil fit
Oct 14, 2023
169
I think generalizing altruism as being bad in animals into it being bad for humans is a gross oversimplification as well. Of course altruism would be bad for the average solitary animal for whom other members of its own species are active competitors. But humans (and many other social animals) are not solitary animals who live only for their own survival. Altruism should actually generally be a positive trait in pack animals and tribal animals, where the survival of the group depends on more than just individuals. Bees and ants straight up sacrifice themselves for their hives. Dolphins are so generally altruistic that they sometimes even help drowning humans. Elephant herds look out for one another within the group. These are all animals that have existed for millions of years, developing altruism as a positive trait and not having it be selected against. Else they would have died out long ago.
I am not saying it's "bad". In fact, its probably good. It's the genetic and evolutionary aspect I'm pointing out mainly. I think one of the points that is made about this, is that there are some traits that have been observed that just don't make sense to be genetically selected for.

I don't remember if it's chimps or another primate, but there have been some that have shown true altruism such as making warning calls when a predator is nearby, risking their life for others. This reduces the chances that the one making the warning call will survive, thus removing them from the gene pool. Over millions of years you would expect that trait to all but disappear.

If you watched the thing about the slime mold, there are some cells that choose to be the stem while there are others that choose to be the fruiting body. The cells are single celled organisms that simply cooperate and can't really be defined as eusocial. The cells that form the stem die and do not pass on their genetics. The fruiting bodies do. You would think after so many generations that the cells that form the stem no longer, leaving only cells trying to be the fruiting body.

Genes and traits can be incredibly complicated, and we're starting to understand they also can be triggered or silenced by environmental factors, so it's not to say there's not something else physical at play here. But it is curious and we don't truly understand altruism in either humans or animals, at least from the lens of evolutionary biology.

I will also reiterate my belief that all humans are fundamentally selfish. There's no such thing as an unselfish human. And frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't get why there has to be a moral judgement on the natural state of a being. We're just built that way.

I agree and I think humans are naturally selfish and that working together is in our genes because we are a social species. That's survival, but there certainly can be more to it. What about someone driving their car alone and seeing a homeless person and giving them $5 or what have you. They aren't a bad person if they don't do it. They lose something valuable, and get nothing in return. You could argue a good feeling, or social currency if they go and tell their friend that they did it, but if they don't they chose to gain nothing from the interaction, then is that selfish? There are a handful of other cases in which humans are driven to do something purely out of love for another or a group. You could call it deterministic behavior based on survival as a group, but I think it's worth it to dig a little deeper.
Humans being more mean today is actually pretty natural too, since there are so many disagreements in our lives. Long ago, if someone in your tribe was being disagreeable, everyone else would be mean to them until they left or they changed. But today, we can't do that anymore. There are billions of people who disagree with you and no matter how mean you are, you can't kick them off the internet or make them feel the need to change. We're naturally mean to those people, because that's what we're programmed to do by tribal existence requiring harmonious (if strained) cooperation. It's just that it can't achieve the intended effect of it in the world we live in today.
Bring back bullying 2024 (i'm kidding)
 
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Lostandlooking

In limbo
Jul 23, 2020
458
altruism
1: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others charitable acts motivated purely by altruism
2: behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species
There's an interesting Standord lecture on human behavorial biology which touches on some of these subjects. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqeYp3nxIYpF7dW7qK8OvLsVomHrnYNjD&feature=shared He also talks about altruism in animals and studies done about that subject. And also evolution. I don't know much about Darwinian natural selection. And how it all ties together. It's been a while since I watched the videos. And this is complicated stuff.
But unconscious as it may, I would suggest that it is nonetheless an emotional choice derived from our internal reward/punishment mechanisms and therefore not "real".
Maybe humans are too complicated to have instinctual altruism? (as opposed to animals) And that makes true altruism for humans impossible? There will always be some feeling connected to the action, influencing the actions of a person in a certain way. And that means it's never purely altruistic.
Our society definitely does not encourage altruism, and in terms of empathy it probably encourages conditional empathy. Only be empathetic to those who hold the same beliefs as you, political or otherwise.
Empathy, even if it is conditional, is a good second best in my opinion. I would not want to live in a world where that doesn't exist. I think it's inevitable to be conditional. And I'm also glad that person helped with the headlights. I think that's very kind.

Love to read the discussion btw. I'll probably try to watch the Stanford videos again. Why do humans behave the way they do. I want to know dammit 😤

Edit: took some stuff out because I'm not an evolutionary biologist and I think I got something wrong.
 
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obligatoryshackles

I don't want to get used to it.
Aug 11, 2023
160
Maybe humans are too complicated to have instinctual altruism? (as opposed to animals) And that makes true altruism for humans impossible? There will always be some feeling connected to the action, influencing the actions of a person in a certain way. And that means it's never purely altruistic.
That is sort of what I'm saying I guess? But I think instinct is being used wrong here. Instinct to me can be a complex mechanism by which human "altruism" works, which also applies to any other being that exhibits altruism. While we might operate on emotion and information processing through thought and simpler beings operate on what is essentially biological programming, I would define both of those as instinctual. Especially so, since our emotional mechanisms are more or less just a slightly more complex version of what exists in any animal with a brain.

The biggest difference, I would say, is our self awareness and ability to consciously observe the process. This is getting into opinionated beliefs, but as a determinist, I don't believe our ability to be aware and observe the process of our mechanisms makes us different beyond adding a complex layer that is the conscious thought process to the mechanism.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
science: reciprocal altruism

I believe in the power of science and I believe in the power of ancient wisdom. Ancient wisdom was if you give, you will receive. And modern science is reciprocal altruism. One of the greatest living scientists nobody knows is Robert Trivers, he's called the founder of modern biology. He's a Harvard professor, more than a professor, he's the genius. He coined one of the people who coined this concept of reciprocal altruism. Leaders who gave the other side, the other tribal alliance, gave back. Thats reciprocal altruism. So we're hardwired to not be ultra-selfish. The genetic pool of those that were extremely selfish, they died because they had no tribal allies. The Native Americans in the Seattle-area, Northwest, they used to throw these potlatches they called them. These huge parties. To be a chief, the chief was the most respected, gave away everything. They would actually make war by charity. So if the chief didn't like that guy, he would out give him at his party. They knew they were planting a seed in their head that they owe them.
 
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moondazed

moondazed

ex nihilo nihil fit
Oct 14, 2023
169
science: reciprocal altruism

I believe in the power of science and I believe in the power of ancient wisdom. Ancient wisdom was if you give, you will receive. And modern science is reciprocal altruism. One of the greatest living scientists nobody knows is Robert Trivers, he's called the founder of modern biology. He's a Harvard professor, more than a professor, he's the genius. He coined one of the people who coined this concept of reciprocal altruism. Leaders who gave the other side, the other tribal alliance, gave back. Thats reciprocal altruism. So we're hardwired to not be ultra-selfish. The genetic pool of those that were extremely selfish, they died because they had no tribal allies. The Native Americans in the Seattle-area, Northwest, they used to throw these potlatches they called them. These huge parties. To be a chief, the chief was the most respected, gave away everything. They would actually make war by charity. So if the chief didn't like that guy, he would out give him at his party. They knew they were planting a seed in their head that they owe them.
Have you read Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Kimerer? She talks quite a bit on the "gift economy" of the indigenous Americans. The whole book is wonderful
The biggest difference, I would say, is our self awareness and ability to consciously observe the process
That's probably the strongest arguments for determinism I can get behind. We could just be experiencing it all with the illusion that we have control. It's not impossible.

It's hard to really fathom that the momentum of our atoms are the defining factors of our being. But even at the atomic level things act with a lot of uncertainty, there is a lot of noise in the signals. It's only when you zoom out do patterns emerge.

I believe in a light, I believe in free will, even as a scientist. I don't know how to really explain it but I don't claim I am correct. Maybe my atoms just want me to believe in it 🫠
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
Have you read Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Kimerer? She talks quite a bit on the "gift economy" of the indigenous Americans. The whole book is wonderful

That's probably the strongest arguments for determinism I can get behind. We could just be experiencing it all with the illusion that we have control. It's not impossible.

It's hard to really fathom that the momentum of our atoms are the defining factors of our being. But even at the atomic level things act with a lot of uncertainty, there is a lot of noise in the signals. It's only when you zoom out do patterns emerge.

I believe in a light, I believe in free will, even as a scientist. I don't know how to really explain it but I don't claim I am correct. Maybe my atoms just want me to believe in it 🫠
What do you study? One of my mentors / friend is a physicist and career serial inventor.

some things are persistent energy patterns (a bit like whirlpools in reality). What we call reality is based on seemingly-random events. However systems with seemingly-random events can have larger non-random patterns. For example, water molecules bounce around seemingly randomly off each other in a large body of water, yet the ocean can have currents and waves that are far from random and these patterns can persist.

I don't know if there's freewill or not. I think the jury is still out. I haven't really looked into this lately. I think there's room for it because we still don't have a firm grasp on consciousness but I mean I wouldn't say a bacterium has freewill. Its all very rigid mechanical processes. Us, I feel like we do. If we do, where's the line? Where is the complexity of self reflection that allows for freewill and what is the mechanism? Maybe there is something quantum mechanical going on. I don't know.

Considering the single-universe sense, in my opinion quantum mechanics plus chaos/complexity eliminates determinism.
Even a bacterium has sufficient complexity to have something resembling free will, although to a much lesser extent than humans.
 
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moondazed

moondazed

ex nihilo nihil fit
Oct 14, 2023
169
What do you study? One of my mentors / friend is a physicist and career serial inventor.
I have a masters in genetics but now I work in industry as a biochemist. I got pretty burned by academia and not sure if I want to go back for a PhD or not.
For example, water molecules bounce around seemingly randomly off each other in a large body of water, yet the ocean can have currents and waves that are far from random and these patterns can persist.
water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random". They follow each other, and hold some other incredible properties, like expanding when freezing/solidifying as well as becoming less dense. No other material does that.
Where is the complexity of self reflection that allows for freewill and what is the mechanism?
I think this is the big question, and if altruism exists, it's probably somewhere within this. We just don't know what consciousness is or the mechanisms behind it. We only know that certain areas of the brain become more active with certain behavior/activity. You have calcium running between synapses and neurons firing electric signals, but… what is happening when we're choosing a meal at a restaurant? What chemicals or ions are making those decisions? Or.. are "we"? Something that is beyond the physical, a "soul"? It's a taboo question in science. I was reading some stuff by this guy named Erik Hoel, and he's a neuroscientist in opposition to determinism. He has an interesting take, though he's really technical and hard to follow if you aren't very versed in physics or biology.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
I have a masters in genetics but now I work in industry as a biochemist. I got pretty burned by academia and not sure if I want to go back for a PhD or not.

water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random". They follow each other, and hold some other incredible properties, like expanding when freezing/solidifying as well as becoming less dense. No other material does that.

I think this is the big question, and if altruism exists, it's probably somewhere within this. We just don't know what consciousness is or the mechanisms behind it. We only know that certain areas of the brain become more active with certain behavior/activity. You have calcium running between synapses and neurons firing electric signals, but… what is happening when we're choosing a meal at a restaurant? What chemicals or ions are making those decisions? Or.. are "we"? Something that is beyond the physical, a "soul"? It's a taboo question in science. I was reading some stuff by this guy named Erik Hoel, and he's a neuroscientist in opposition to determinism. He has an interesting take, though he's really technical and hard to follow if you aren't very versed in physics or biology.
Gallium also expands on freezing. Germanium and silicon - Silica is also less dense as a solid than as a liquid.

Regarding multiverse theory, I am not a fan of the version that says that the universe splits every time you measure a probabilistic outcome. That is even more a case of the tail wagging the dog than the classical quantum theory that says that the wave function collapses when it is observed.

By multiverse I mean a Multiverse where everything that can exist always exists.
In that case all possible outcomes always exist and when you make an observation or measurement you are merely determining which thread within the multiverse this particular thread of your consciousness finds itself on. Consider two entangled photons where they will be guaranteed to have opposite spins but quantum mechanics says their spins are not predetermined. In my version of multiverse theory, entanglement makes total sense – if you measure one photon and find out that you are in a universe where it is spin up, of course in that universe the other one is spin down – no spooky action at a distance needed all.

Mathematically this produces the same results as classical quantum theory so there is no physical evidence for or against it relative to regular quantum theory. However it explains anthropocentric fine tuning, the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics, entanglement, and wave function collapse all with a single mechanism that provides logical, intuitive explanations rather than needing ad hoc assumptions, so in that sense it is simpler than the other theories that produce similar mathematical results.
 
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アホペンギン

アホペンギン

Jul 10, 2023
2,199
In my opinion, altruism does exist but the strength of their non selfish decisions does rely on the situation. Everyone can be selfish, in their own ways and there's nothing to prevent that. Every living thing was molded throughout the years, with lots of struggles, to only think about the best outcomes for itself and disregard what happens to others, that is survival instinct in a way and even now it influences things completely unrelated to survival because of evolution.

TLDR: Altruism does exist but depends on the situation mostly. This is just my opinion though.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
I have a masters in genetics but now I work in industry as a biochemist. I got pretty burned by academia and not sure if I want to go back for a PhD or not.

water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random". They follow each other, and hold some other incredible properties, like expanding when freezing/solidifying as well as becoming less dense. No other material does that.

I think this is the big question, and if altruism exists, it's probably somewhere within this. We just don't know what consciousness is or the mechanisms behind it. We only know that certain areas of the brain become more active with certain behavior/activity. You have calcium running between synapses and neurons firing electric signals, but… what is happening when we're choosing a meal at a restaurant? What chemicals or ions are making those decisions? Or.. are "we"? Something that is beyond the physical, a "soul"? It's a taboo question in science. I was reading some stuff by this guy named Erik Hoel, and he's a neuroscientist in opposition to determinism. He has an interesting take, though he's really technical and hard to follow if you aren't very versed in physics or biology.
Yes, on water molecules but I'm saying *seemingly* randomly when viewed from a certain point of view.

A friend of mine spent 12 years getting a PhD in molecular neuroscience of the brain. I think it would be interesting to get his take as well.

Thats awesome that you got a masters in biochem. One of my step-cousins and one of my coworkers studied that. Its very interesting and very rigorous. My friend's wife was the deputy director of the human genome project. I think she has a PhD in molecular biology. She also got burned out by the politics and bureaucracy in that community unfortunately.
I have a masters in genetics but now I work in industry as a biochemist. I got pretty burned by academia and not sure if I want to go back for a PhD or not.

water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random". They follow each other, and hold some other incredible properties, like expanding when freezing/solidifying as well as becoming less dense. No other material does that.

I think this is the big question, and if altruism exists, it's probably somewhere within this. We just don't know what consciousness is or the mechanisms behind it. We only know that certain areas of the brain become more active with certain behavior/activity. You have calcium running between synapses and neurons firing electric signals, but… what is happening when we're choosing a meal at a restaurant? What chemicals or ions are making those decisions? Or.. are "we"? Something that is beyond the physical, a "soul"? It's a taboo question in science. I was reading some stuff by this guy named Erik Hoel, and he's a neuroscientist in opposition to determinism. He has an interesting take, though he's really technical and hard to follow if you aren't very versed in physics or biology.
I just remember, bismuth and antimony also expand when they freeze.
I have a masters in genetics but now I work in industry as a biochemist. I got pretty burned by academia and not sure if I want to go back for a PhD or not.

water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random". They follow each other, and hold some other incredible properties, like expanding when freezing/solidifying as well as becoming less dense. No other material does that.

I think this is the big question, and if altruism exists, it's probably somewhere within this. We just don't know what consciousness is or the mechanisms behind it. We only know that certain areas of the brain become more active with certain behavior/activity. You have calcium running between synapses and neurons firing electric signals, but… what is happening when we're choosing a meal at a restaurant? What chemicals or ions are making those decisions? Or.. are "we"? Something that is beyond the physical, a "soul"? It's a taboo question in science. I was reading some stuff by this guy named Erik Hoel, and he's a neuroscientist in opposition to determinism. He has an interesting take, though he's really technical and hard to follow if you aren't very versed in physics or biology.
Sorry for all the replies plutonium forms spacious crystal lattices with tetrahedral coordination.

Very likely we will upload our consciousness, but an alternative is that we will keep embedding hardware in our bodies until our bodies are no longer dominated by biology.

If you copied the connectivity between all cells in the brain, including the strength of the synapses, you would get something that was close enough to "you" that it would argue that it was you. The only advantage of moving the neurons is that it solves the problem of what to do with the original to avoid having two entities claiming to be the same person.
One thing to note, however, is that even if it starts as you, if the hardware is different it will learn very differently in the future from the way your current wetware would learn.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
10,085
I think to some extent, altruism can be taught or ingrained. Ever worked in customer service for a long period? It becomes almost second nature to serve people. You find yourself trying to be helpful in all circumstances and it's not always for personal reward or that warm, fuzzy feeling. You can actually start to feel resentful of it if people start to view you as a mug and take advantage of it. I guess that isn't real or natural altruism though. It is more learned/expected behaviour.

I expect a lot of altruistic acts in nature are actually families ensuring that the young- carrying their genes survive. Or- symbiotic- in which case, both organisms actually benefit from the action. I expect- like other things, these behaviours and relationships have evolved. It can benefit a species to be altruistic to one another and even to a different species.
 
DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
I have a masters in genetics but now I work in industry as a biochemist. I got pretty burned by academia and not sure if I want to go back for a PhD or not.

water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random". They follow each other, and hold some other incredible properties, like expanding when freezing/solidifying as well as becoming less dense. No other material does that.

I think this is the big question, and if altruism exists, it's probably somewhere within this. We just don't know what consciousness is or the mechanisms behind it. We only know that certain areas of the brain become more active with certain behavior/activity. You have calcium running between synapses and neurons firing electric signals, but… what is happening when we're choosing a meal at a restaurant? What chemicals or ions are making those decisions? Or.. are "we"? Something that is beyond the physical, a "soul"? It's a taboo question in science. I was reading some stuff by this guy named Erik Hoel, and he's a neuroscientist in opposition to determinism. He has an interesting take, though he's really technical and hard to follow if you aren't very versed in physics or biology.
There is still discussion on the form of the water molecules on the surface of ice, but the molecules are in a more water-like state and they are in the center of the ice due to having fewer long-lasting bonds between molecules. However, my understanding is that there is a temperature below which ice is no longer slippery because the surface has become ice-like rather than water-like. If I remember, it is around -50 Celsius.
Pressure and friction will increase the pre-melted layer on ice, but it exists even without those:https://www.nature.com/articles/s41570-019-0080-8/

intermolecular forces are what determine when stuff melts and freezes and boils and condenses. Hydrogen bonds are a big deal in water-soluble substances (vodka = ethanol + water), so they hold stuff together. They become more viscous as they get colder, but it's harder for them to freeze into a solid crystal since they're a mix of different liquids. Thus, they just progress to be more and more viscous. - Water, because of its hydrogen bonds, actually gets less dense as it goes into its solid state. Water becomes more and more dense as it cools until it freezes at which point the polarity of the h2o molecules cause water assume a crystalline formation so there is actually more space between the molecules of ice than in super chilled liquid water.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-dynamic-kinematic-viscosity-d_596.html

Skis work because the friction heats up the snow melting it (similar to ice skates), thats why you wax skis. Similar to how an avalanche works - its melting the snow with heat as its moving which lowers the friction coefficient. Plus a vacuum effect of pushing the air in front out back accelerates it. Its not one mass, it acts as a fluid (snow vs the clumping of dirt and rock), so the stuff from the front can get to the back. Basically it can leapfrog and and pull stuff in behind it like a self feeding loop. The front pushes air out which can make it faster than free-fall (up to ~200mph if I remember correctly)

Asymmetric bonds allow the paired electrons to spend more time near the atom that most likes the electrons. Both hydrogen and carbon have half-filled shells, so they are fairly similar in character. In contrast, oxygen just needs two more electrons to fill a shell of 8 electrons, so it is desperate for more electrons. Therefore oxygen – hydrogen and oxygen – carbon bonds are less symmetric than carbon – carbon, carbon – hydrogen or hydrogen – hydrogen bonds, which keeps the electrons spending more time near atoms that really want them.

Put a drop of water on a piece of wax paper or leaf, it looks like a sphere. A spherical water droplet is the electromagnetic force. Water molecules make hydrogen bonds with one another which in this context we refer to as cohesive forces. Thats why water has a very high surface tension (the paperclip floats because of surface tension). And thats why a water droplet remains spherical. So that it can maximize the number of hydrogen bonds that are formed and keep the system at the lowest energy possible. In this example, water curves due to the electromagnetic force, it therefor can curve under the influence of any force, including gravity.
This is an approximation that ignores other electromagnetic forces (such as hydrophilic surfaces), and strong gravity (the water droplet will not be anything close to spherical on the surface of a neutron star…)

But yes, Water definitely becomes more viscous with cooler temperature, and yes, it is driven by hydrogen bonding.
I have a masters in genetics but now I work in industry as a biochemist. I got pretty burned by academia and not sure if I want to go back for a PhD or not.

water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random". They follow each other, and hold some other incredible properties, like expanding when freezing/solidifying as well as becoming less dense. No other material does that.

I think this is the big question, and if altruism exists, it's probably somewhere within this. We just don't know what consciousness is or the mechanisms behind it. We only know that certain areas of the brain become more active with certain behavior/activity. You have calcium running between synapses and neurons firing electric signals, but… what is happening when we're choosing a meal at a restaurant? What chemicals or ions are making those decisions? Or.. are "we"? Something that is beyond the physical, a "soul"? It's a taboo question in science. I was reading some stuff by this guy named Erik Hoel, and he's a neuroscientist in opposition to determinism. He has an interesting take, though he's really technical and hard to follow if you aren't very versed in physics or biology.
You're a biochemist: whats your take on this?

I've been reading a lot of discord on whether the dissolution or dissolving of salt & sugar in water is a physical reaction or a chemical one?


No bonds are broken when sugar is dissolved in water, when sugar is a solid crystal it is held together by intermolecular forces, because the intermolecular forces between sugar and water are stronger then those between sugar molecules, water can dissolve the sugar molecules exposed on the outside of the crystalline.
The dissolution of sugar into water is a physical change, its not a chemical change. If you dissolve a salt in water like sodium chloride you may consider that to be a chemical reaction as the salt is ionized into chloride and sodium ions.

NaCl(s) = H2O = Na*(aq) + Cl-(aq)

Because of hydration - if you had a transition metal (which can have water as a ligand) and when you have water as a ligand you would consider that to be a new chemical compound, at least if you're an inorganic chemist. Normally if we're talking about a chemical change we would call that a chemical reaction. But I think calling something a physical reaction isn't necessarily a useful thing to do.

Electrons are exchanged and atomic forces
in the first atomic shell are critical, all features
characteristic of chemical interactions. The strength of the chemical "bonds" involved are weaker than, say, most carbon-carbon bonds. However, if you consider the transformation of Manganese Chloride tetrahydate (a solid) to manganese chloride mono hydrate (a solid with a different crystal structure) a "chemical reaction," which I think most scientists do, then you should consider salt dissolution a "chemical reaction," as the atomic forces involved are extremely similar.
A change in "state of matter" is a purely
physical reaction. So when you boil salt water,
the water becomes vapor and the salt gets left
behind. So it doesn't seem like a chemical
reaction to begin with. Though there are some
physical reactions that involve some chemical
reactions as well.
Are not salts already ionized, just in a crystal
lattice? The electrons have already changed
atoms as part of the chemical reaction to create
the salt. In the case of sodium chloride, isn't
water just substituting its polar intermolecular
forces for ionic attraction in the crystal lattice?
Common salt (NaCI) is ionic in the solid state and in solution. what is changed is the atomic environments. The case of HCI (g) is different. The gas is covalent but the solution is ionic and the process should be counted as a chemical change. However, the statement "Electrons are exchanged and atomic forces in the first atomic shell are critical, all features characteristic of chemical interactions" is distilled nonsense for common solutions.

It depends on the type of bond that the water goes into with the salt in question. If it is a coordinative bond like in copper sulfate, I would classify as a chemical reaction since electrons are exchanged, which also gives it its blue color. If it is merely a
hydrogen bond like in sodium sulfate, it is not a
chemical reaction and the salt is simply physically dissolved like sugar would be. I can understand the distinction being drawn, but the reasoning seems odd to me because many hydrogen bonds are stronger than some co-ordinative bonds. Besides, in marginal cases I am more inclined to say that a
reaction is BOTH physical and chemical, rather
then attempting to find finer and finer delineations of either/or.
No electrons are exchanged in hydration of Cu ion in copper sulfate solution.
If you add a solute to a solution and it dissolves
and then reacts, there are two processes:
dissolution and reaction. Those are not the
same. Just because two chemicals may react,
doesn't mean they also didn't dissolve first. Metallic zinc dissolves in hydrochloric acid (a) is an irreversible chemical reaction and you cannot separate dissolution and reaction in this case.

A reaction is between different
molecules. When you put sodium (Na)
into hydrochloric acid (HCI) you get table salt
(NaCI) and hydrogen gas (H2). The equation
would be
2 HCI + 2 Na = 2 NaCI + H2
So in our case when we put table salt into water,
what exactly reacts with what and what's the
resulting stuff?
H20 + NaCI == H20 + NaCI
When the water evaporates, it's still H2O, just
vapor instead of liquid. That's just a physical
change of state. Where would the salt go?
That's how we actually extract salt from the
sea. Take salt water and let it evaporate in large
ponds. The salt would be left over (together with
any other solids which may have been dissolved
in the water).

A lot of substances become charged ions in water, so research on salts is applicable to a wide variety of substances (including most minerals). Second, dissolution and sedimentation is a major way that rocks move around on the earth surface, and that process often involves salts (minerals) dissolving in water. The behavior of these salts depends in a non-trivial way on temperature, pressure, and concentration of various salts. Almost all medication
and supplements are in salt form(magnesium
salts, amphetamine salts etc) and the way they
enter our bloodstream is by being dissolved in
blood (water). Its abit more complex than that when it comes to pharmaceuticals.. Solubility as it pertains to bioavailability plays a role certainly also equally as important is stability and crystalizability/storage and shelf life concerns. In the case of CNS drugs solubility in water probably decreases bioavailability and considering its basic amine is probably a mess to store/package, salt form for amphetamine was probably the wiser choice. I like 'chemical interaction' for ionization but I'm not sure about reaction.
I have a masters in genetics but now I work in industry as a biochemist. I got pretty burned by academia and not sure if I want to go back for a PhD or not.

water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random". They follow each other, and hold some other incredible properties, like expanding when freezing/solidifying as well as becoming less dense. No other material does that.

I think this is the big question, and if altruism exists, it's probably somewhere within this. We just don't know what consciousness is or the mechanisms behind it. We only know that certain areas of the brain become more active with certain behavior/activity. You have calcium running between synapses and neurons firing electric signals, but… what is happening when we're choosing a meal at a restaurant? What chemicals or ions are making those decisions? Or.. are "we"? Something that is beyond the physical, a "soul"? It's a taboo question in science. I was reading some stuff by this guy named Erik Hoel, and he's a neuroscientist in opposition to determinism. He has an interesting take, though he's really technical and hard to follow if you aren't very versed in physics or biology.
Again, seemingly and it was also more of a metaphor.

To answer your questions, no, I have not that book but I'll add it to my list. Thanks! Secondly, I have heard of him but have not ready his work. I'll check it out. Thank you for sharing!

The uncertainty principle plus chaotic interactions ensure free will within one universe.
The fine details of neuroscience or psychology will be hard to predict from first principles, but the broad picture will be worked out.

Again, I don't know if anyone definitively knows one way or the other (currently). What is the evolutionary purpose behind art? Jewelry I understand. Status symbol. But beyond that, is it just a byproduct of sentience? I don't know. Attractive serves an evolutionary purpose. Bur what about beauty? When a dog sees a sunset, does it admire the beauty or simply feel comfort?

The human sole - an expression of mind, not brain, yes - but a supernatural, ethereal entity?
something that would fuse the material world to an ethereal netherworld like a collective consciousness of a biosphere? Its kind of a nice thought to think that there is an afterlife and a spirit world.

I think people have "aura" I guess which are distinct but I think that aura is just people seeing a manifestation of your subconscious whether it's in a corporal language that is so strong that it exudes a distinct emotion and personality or other less scientific and more kind of mystical thing. But overall I still think this so called aura or soul or whatever is called is either in the brain of an individual (as in being is subconscious) or being the result of a connection between brains of two different people but that might imply the "soul" of a person would vary depending on who's perceiving it and there constantly changing and evolving. It would be messy and complicated but things are complex so why not."

An example of soul would be my grandfather, and all the people he touched in his life that are still influenced by the way he lived, and that will in turn influence others.

I am not preoccupied with "why we are here" because in the omniverse sense the answer is "because we can be".
But I do pay attention to progress in understanding the process of how we got here (abiogenesis, evolution).

I have never found a testable prediction that my version of the multiverse makes that differs from the predictions that quantum mechanics makes. My version merely provides a simple, plausible explanation for:
wave function "collapse" upon observation, the need to have an observer for a given "reality" to exist, and spooky action at a distance.
fine-turing and the anthropic principle.
It also answers the physics question from an "exam" that I saw in my high school guidance counselor's office:
"explain the universe in 25 words or less, and give two examples". My answer is: "everything that can exist always exists, and in some universes you realize this".
(the biology question was something like "write down a complete, balanced chemical equation for life").

Everything that can exist always exists, and the set of all things that can exist should properly be called the Omniverse. However we do not know whether what can exist forms a continuum, in which case the multiverse is the same as the Omniverse, or whether existences cluster, in which case our local cluster is the multi-verse and the set of all clusters is the Omniverse (and there may be levels of hierarchy in between).

The multiverse theory I subscribe to is a different flavor than the classic "every observation causes a splitting" nonsense.
A multiverse solves the fine-tuning problem, and makes sense of quantum mechanics (both the apparent randomness, and the spooky action at a distance).

I definitely don't have all the answers. And I'm sure it will be quite a long time before we do.
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,015
altruism
1: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others charitable acts motivated purely by altruism
2: behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

In undergrad I learned about these organisms called slime molds, they are very cool and I've been obsessed with them for awhile.




Slime mold apparently exhibit altruism, sacrificing themselves for another. Its incredibly strange to understand and is explained pretty well at about 6 minutes in the first video. There's a good paper on it here (official source with paywall) or here (sci-hub/no paywall).

It's a strange idea, something such as the slime molds, an organism without a brain let alone much of a body, exhibiting "altruistic" behavior. There have been a lot of other studies on other animals and if they can display altruism too.

The introduction of a really good article from Stanford:


So there's a lot of debate on it whether it's genetic and instinctual, as we tend to view the natural world from the scientific lens. Altruism and how it persists throughout life in so many different species is confusing when Darwinian natural selection should tell us it would not persist. It's funny there's two definitions. What we call altruism in humans is more of a conscious choice, while altruism in animals is simply a reaction. I find it funny we want to separate ourselves from nature so much.

So is altruism actually just a self-serving cope to gain social credibility? Do animals have their own kind of psychology/consciousness and make these altruistic decisions, be it for greater good or selfish intent? Is it just instinct and genetics? Why wouldn't something like this get selected against in evolution? Is it even real or is it all just random? Scientists and psychologists can't seem to figure it out.

I think altruism developed for the greater survival of the community and species as a whole. Altruism is beneficial for social (and solitary) animals and societies. I think altruism and altruistic traits would actually get selected for, not against, because they're beneficial for a species' survival. I think that altruism for the greater good. I think that in animals it's genetic and instinctive, but there is a selfish element to it in humans because it makes people feel good. I heard that people get a good feeling when they do something nice for someone, it sparks a dopamine rush or something.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
I have a masters in genetics but now I work in industry as a biochemist. I got pretty burned by academia and not sure if I want to go back for a PhD or not.

water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random". They follow each other, and hold some other incredible properties, like expanding when freezing/solidifying as well as becoming less dense. No other material does that.

I think this is the big question, and if altruism exists, it's probably somewhere within this. We just don't know what consciousness is or the mechanisms behind it. We only know that certain areas of the brain become more active with certain behavior/activity. You have calcium running between synapses and neurons firing electric signals, but… what is happening when we're choosing a meal at a restaurant? What chemicals or ions are making those decisions? Or.. are "we"? Something that is beyond the physical, a "soul"? It's a taboo question in science. I was reading some stuff by this guy named Erik Hoel, and he's a neuroscientist in opposition to determinism. He has an interesting take, though he's really technical and hard to follow if you aren't very versed in physics or biology.
@ water molecules adheres to eachother through weak forces, hydrogen bonds. So it's not really just "seemingly random".

Not on the level of individual interactions, where each "bounce" is predictable (to the extent that uncertainty allows), and not on the level of waves and currents, but the levels in between look random (due to complexity amplifying uncertainty).
Have you read Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Kimerer? She talks quite a bit on the "gift economy" of the indigenous Americans. The whole book is wonderful

That's probably the strongest arguments for determinism I can get behind. We could just be experiencing it all with the illusion that we have control. It's not impossible.

It's hard to really fathom that the momentum of our atoms are the defining factors of our being. But even at the atomic level things act with a lot of uncertainty, there is a lot of noise in the signals. It's only when you zoom out do patterns emerge.

I believe in a light, I believe in free will, even as a scientist. I don't know how to really explain it but I don't claim I am correct. Maybe my atoms just want me to believe in it 🫠
@ determinism

Considering the single-universe sense, in my opinion quantum mechanics plus chaos/complexity eliminates determinism.

Stephen Hawking said he had a wager with another scientist thinking we'd be able to reserve time in the future. Since the universe is expanding, he thought when the universe would begin to contract that time would reserve. And Hawking said, I made a mistake, as far as we know, the arrows of time move forward: (1.) thermodynamically, thats one measure. (2.) Psychologically, in how we perceive time. (3.) And cosmologically, the way the universe is moving. Those are the three.
Time is an illusion, but that illusion has a direction that is consistent so it is not unreasonable to speak of time as always moving forward.

"I feel like there are two camps of physicists:
A. Time is an illusion/human construct.
B. Time is a measurable physical force/phenomenon/law/aspect of the universe - whatever term is most apt."

B. is correct in that we can indeed measure time and various "laws" involve it.
A. is correct in the larger Omniverse sense, where everything that can exist always exists.

We do not know if time is quantized – if it is, then the first part is a reasonable description of a block universe (from within the block multiverse).

Time is an illusion caused by the limitations of our consciousness, which can only experience one slice of one thread of the multiverse (that we call the present and call reality).
Time, and entropy, are driven by our consciousness's effort to make sense of that slice, and it is a lot simpler to treat time as if it does exist and that there is only one reality that flows from slice to slice.

How can your theory address the free-will loophole or super-determinism in J.S. Bell Theorem? What do you think about it? The universe has "conspired" either in the past or the future to more or less cause entanglement in particles measuring the experiment and people try to rule it out. In quantum locality there are still degrees of freedom. You might be able to tell the state of one twin particle that is distant from another one for measuring particle A and then knowing immediately that particle B has to be in a complimentary state, have opposite spin. But that doesn't tell you anything about the state in which you measure particle A. There's still a great deal of freedom there. Retro-causation that basically comes down to John Wheeler's participation principle. - When measuring a particle determines whether this thread of your consciousness is in a universe where the particle is spin up, or in a universe where the particle is spin down, there is no "spooky action at a distance" difficulty because of course the other particle has the complementary spin.

Einstein wrote: "For those of us who believe in physics, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion"




Its complicated and I don't mean in the sense that there's underlying principles that govern the way things work and you just don't know the underlying principles. I mean the situation is at least that bad but it may be worse than that. There may not be any underlying principles. In fact thats the way I think it is. There's probably none at all, there's just an ocean of tiny details. The overall outcome being nothing more than the sum of all their individual actions. Thats the way the weather works. Thats why your weather man can't tell you what its gonna do a week from now with any accuracy. It's not that he's missing a knowledge of some underlying principles that would allow them to make those predictions. Its that there are no underlying principles that would allow them to make those predictions. What he's able to predict is dependent entirely on the number and distribution of the observations he's able to make and the computational power he has available to him to model the system. Thats the best he can do. Pretty sure the worldwide social situation is even worse. Its nowhere being nearly even possible to even model the behavior of a single individual. Let alone the behavior of millions of people. There are times when most people do agree on what aught to be done but barring the supposition of some immediate concern that would apparently demand such a drastic measure as that.

The underlying principles in chaotic systems don't support detailed predictions far into the future. The impact of randomness can't be overstated! Humans are pattern seeking animals. We can't help it.
 
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AmyWhite999

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Nov 8, 2023
4
Not a direct answer, but in my experience debates about altruism often rest on assumptions about how altruism should be defined. Some people seem to take altruism to be almost a form of masochism - if you benefit in any way from an act, even just psychologically, then it isn't altruistic. Persor don't find this definition persuasive, and I do kureve in altruism.

Basically, try and figure out exactly what your friends mean by altruism, because that is absolutely central to the question of whether or not it exists. If their definitions of altruism are so demanding as to basically rule it out, then that might give you reason to think those definitions aren't good ones.
 
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real person

real person

Experienced
Dec 11, 2023
207
altruism
1: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others charitable acts motivated purely by altruism
2: behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

In undergrad I learned about these organisms called slime molds, they are very cool and I've been obsessed with them for awhile.




Slime mold apparently exhibit altruism, sacrificing themselves for another. Its incredibly strange to understand and is explained pretty well at about 6 minutes in the first video. There's a good paper on it here (official source with paywall) or here (sci-hub/no paywall).

It's a strange idea, something such as the slime molds, an organism without a brain let alone much of a body, exhibiting "altruistic" behavior. There have been a lot of other studies on other animals and if they can display altruism too.

The introduction of a really good article from Stanford:


So there's a lot of debate on it whether it's genetic and instinctual, as we tend to view the natural world from the scientific lens. Altruism and how it persists throughout life in so many different species is confusing when Darwinian natural selection should tell us it would not persist. It's funny there's two definitions. What we call altruism in humans is more of a conscious choice, while altruism in animals is simply a reaction. I find it funny we want to separate ourselves from nature so much.

So is altruism actually just a self-serving cope to gain social credibility? Do animals have their own kind of psychology/consciousness and make these altruistic decisions, be it for greater good or selfish intent? Is it just instinct and genetics? Why wouldn't something like this get selected against in evolution? Is it even real or is it all just random? Scientists and psychologists can't seem to figure it out.

those things are cool lol
 

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