Discussion Is suicide the right decision?

[druggedonsurvival]

Apologies for the essay-length post, but I think at least some of you may find some of it interesting. I was originally going to post this to the suicide discussion thread but after some consideration I've decided it is probably more appropriate here.

After having read several portions of Geo Stone's book about suicide (about half of which can be accessed online at http://suicidemethods.info/text/content2.htm), namely Part 1, I was inspired to do some serious self-reflection. I found myself asking this question particularly because of one concept that Stone briefly mentions: chiefly, that "you can always kill yourself later." In other words, the idea is that we should make sure that suicide is truly the most appropriate option before pursuing it. In particular, he puts forth the predictable but (I now believe) valid point that a truly logical approach to suicide would involve first attempting all other alternatives first. Stone recycles the old adage that suicide is a "permanent solution to a temporary problem." Although eye roll-inducing, I think that in this context it has some weight.

In a manner of speaking, every problem we have is temporary. Suicide is the ultimate solution to all of our problems. What I hadn't considered too seriously before was the idea that perhaps I hadn't been thinking as rationally as I thought when it comes to the viability of suicide in this sense. In my own life, consistent loneliness and social isolation are the most major factors that have influenced my urge to ctb. Now I have been inspired to critically evaluate my situation to determine with more reliability whether this is the most appropriate choice for me.

My situation as of now is something like this: I have no friends and I have never been in a relationship. I have a hard time connecting with people and don't talk to others often. However, there are a few people who seem to enjoy talking to me. One of the most important questions for me to ask, then, is: is my social situation truly hopeless? This is the most difficult assessment for me to make, and consequently where I am stuck at this point in my evaluation. I have no idea if I am really capable of making friends or finding a partner, although I understand that my depression often influences me to believe that it is impossible. Contrary to what Stone would probably suggest, I first am moved to consider the possibility that this could be correct. After all, just because my depression is influencing this belief does not mean that it is incorrect. The other possibility, of course, is that there is some way for me to improve my social skills and even my romantic pursuits. How to convince myself that such an action would be worth pursuing and/or could be fruitful constitutes yet another hurdle in this analysis.

Where the difficulty arises is the barrier that my depression serves in terms of its impact on my self-worth (which is to say I have none). It is true that my mental condition makes it much more of a struggle for me to rise above this feeling of self-loathing. Therefore, the primary quandary for me is determining whether it is possible to improve my social situation. I must caution myself that even if I am successful in doing so, this may not erase my desire to ctb, but that is beside the point. The purpose of this exercise is to critically evaluate whether or not suicide is truly the best option for me. My issue is that I have no clue how to approach analyzing my prospects for recovery. If anyone has any advice to that end, it would be much appreciated, but the main reason I was inspired to make this post is at least put forward this idea of critical self-evaluation as a precursor to the decision to commit suicide.

I would like to encourage everyone, or at least whoever is so inclined, to do so as well. I also recommend reading Geo Stone's "Suicide and Attempted Suicide: Methods and Consequences" because I found it enlightening and helpful in a way that I wasn't expecting. Of course, I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to prevent suicide. Don't get me wrong, I am fully pro-choice and I still firmly believe that suicide can be a logical course of action, even in cases of mental suffering. I don't know what the end result of this evaluation will be or even how to approach it, but after contemplating it for a while, I think this is much better than relying on the emotional gut reaction of worthlessness from depression that gives the initial inclination toward suicide. Agree or not, I think it's something interesting to consider. Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on the matter.

 

[Shrike]

One of my alienation drivers is that a question like this can't even be processed by the general public without knee jerk reactions.

Is it the right decision? Right decision relative to what? Why is it so important?

"If it's not completely hopeless, one must press on" is already an ideology. It implies it's very important to press on, to stick around. Why does this have importance? By this point, the priorities are already chosen for you. If society didn't make all this such a big deal, would it be? I think very few ideologies are "clean", they often exist in opposition to other things.

You have to start with a value system, first. Mine just says "it really doesn't matter that much". From there, suffering can be evaluated on its own.

Self-loathing is a derivation also. You hate yourself because the world hates you.

We are not clean, this is not a clean slate, the whole world has always been contaminated, and you are composed of the contagion. Until that is realized you're not having this conversation with yourself, but just with what you've always been told, and so is the writer of that book.

 

[333s]

I have no friends and I have never been in a relationship. I have a hard time connecting with people and don't talk to others often. However, there are a few people who seem to enjoy talking to me.

The other possibility, of course, is that there is some way for me to improve my social skills and even my romantic pursuits.

How to convince myself that such an action would be worth pursuing

sorry, but i can already tell it's worth trying in your situation
honestly, i feel like it's worth trying for everyone who ever happened to ask this question
if you feel like you might know a solution for The Problem that makes you feel suicidal then why not test it
every problem in the world can be solved if one sees a sense in it (especially one that comes with your self image and communication. i wish i could help you somehow)
and many are unsolved because their existence makes more sense than their absence

"If it's not completely hopeless, one must press on" is already an ideology. It implies it's very important to press on, to stick around. Why does this have importance?

and i'm really sorry but it seems very resentimental to me
people didnt have this developed frontal cortex we have now for centuries so choosing life was perfectly normal for them > its just an old pattern of thinking that goes with parts of old reptilian brain, not completely socio cultural thing
like every mammal has SI for a reason
life is very bullheaded in its own structure, politicans just domesticated it for things to make sense

You have to start with a value system, first.

very good advice

 

[Slow_Farewell]

Whenever i see the words (in the title), either framed that way or in a different context, i'm always interested in the discussion in the replies.
Putting it in the context of "right and wrong" is always bound to trigger certain people, and it's fascinating how they would express their opinion, whatever side of the coin they may fall in.
Having said that, kudos to the OP, @druggedonsurvival. The post is well structured and clear.
My two cents:
I've read the book. In fact im happy to have discovered it, and regardless of how many devices i have or when i change phones, it's always one of those titles that I make sure I have a digital copy of. The author does make good points, and the tone (at least for me) something triggering, and it's just straight forward and logical, not much fluff.
CTB in itself isn't right or wrong. It's an individual's decision based on a number of factors that they have themselves assigned a value too. And I honestly totally agree with trying out stuff first before actually CTB'ing.
Objective, critical self-assessment should be part of the decision to CTB. It's a pro-active, not a reactive measure.
I would say based on a lot of posts, it seems to be lacking at times, but there are instances here and there that shows people have the capacity for a truly honest self-evaluation, or at least a good attempt at it.

I wish OP the best in his/her journey in self evaluation.
Myself, I would treat this as an experiment of sorts. Since the OP has people that like to talk, then I'd try and ask why they chose to interact with the OP.
Having obtained that, I would attempt to list the create the profile of these people, then i would try and either:
1) attempt to find people of the same profile, and see how my engagement with them goes
2) attempt to find people of a different profile, and see how my engagement with them goes.
Next step would probably be try and tweak how I would engage with both groups, and try it out on them.
Sorry, reply is a bit long, but yeah, it would be an interesting journey. I would not be averse to following a thread the OP documenting his/her journey.

 

[Pluto]

I think this is a great topic. It points towards some sort of structured cost-benefit analysis or a scientific method to make the most rational decision possible. Given the seriousness of the situation, it should be a no-brainer to do so.

If a suicide is motivated by some sort of apathy, there is no real counterargument there. It would be deemed as not worth even the effort to make a well-considered decision. Even then, the danger is that such an individual might be in a state where they are cut off from their feelings.

My suggestion would be to look at something more practical. I can give you 2 examples which are my only meaningful lifelines at the moment:
1) Physical fitness. It ends up more than the sum of its parts. It represents making an effort that goes on to improve quality of life, and (rightly or wrongly) makes us far more attractive and respectable to others.
2) Spirituality. I know the word is triggering. I could say 'truth-seeking' but that's a bit cryptic. Great minds have been asking profound questions for thousands of years, and it seems that a handful have found the metaphorical holy grail. Most people who apply themselves will get something out of it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think it's good to thoroughly assess your situation. Work out why you're not happy. Work out what you would need to make you happy. Work out if it's likely you'll achieve it and if you can't, how happy will you be with a compromise.

I'm not convinced you need to actually try everything to know though. Is it ok for instance to say- 'I don't want to try that'? So- as an example, some people will be willing to try every drug going- prescribed and illegal to try and make them feel better. Is that the 'right' thing to do? It could in fact help them. Or, it could make them worse. So surely then- it's a choice. A matter of weighing up the benefits and the risks. Someone isn't necessarily 'wrong' for not wanting to try something they believe will have either no effect or, make them worse.

Of course, things like depression can play a part. Am I this negative because my thinking has become pessimistically skewed? But then- it's another choice. Am I willing to put in the work on my mental health? Do I have the money or time for therapy or drugs? What if the first lot doesn't work? What if 20 therapists and 13 different drugs don't work? When has that person tried enough? Surely- when they think they have!

One thing I feel pretty sure on is- to get better or, 'recover', you need to want to. It takes effort. It might take putting your faith in other people. I doubt it would be all that successful if you half arse it. So- without that person really wanting to do those things- just how successful are they likely to be?

As a general idea though- I guess the reasoning is: People should keep living because life has the potential to be good. They, in fact should be putting everything they have into living. Nevermind that living may very well cause more suffering for them. Worse suffering in fact. So- by the same token, I would argue- money would improve most people's lives- correct? So- why don't they put all their savings into next week's lottery draw? Because it's one hell of a risk and if they lose- they lose everything and make life much worse for themselves. It may not be to quite the same extent but- some people don't even want to try to 'get better' if they have tried in the past and then crashed.

I'd disagree to some level that suicide is always going to be there as an option. Sorry to rub salt in the wound (and sorry for the pun,) but those who didn't buy SN a year ago are very likely regretting it now. We don't always have the accessibility, health and fitness for some methods. If we become so old and ill that we are put in a care home, everything will become all the more restricted.

That all said, personally it's a decision I want to be sure on before I commit. I wouldn't want my suicide to be impulsive.

 

[druggedonsurvival]

if you feel like you might know a solution for The Problem that makes you feel suicidal then why not test it
every problem in the world can be solved if one sees a sense in it (especially one that comes with your self image and communication. i wish i could help you somehow)
and many are unsolved because their existence makes more sense than their absence

I suppose that is the crux of the problem, maybe why we all have a problem - we cannot find such a solution. But the question remains: is it reasonable to believe that such a solution is possible, and to search for it? Certainly I think the latter is reasonable, but oftentimes life gets in the way.

One of my alienation drivers is that a question like this can't even be processed by the general public without knee jerk reactions.

Is it the right decision? Right decision relative to what? Why is it so important?

"If it's not completely hopeless, one must press on" is already an ideology. It implies it's very important to press on, to stick around. Why does this have importance? By this point, the priorities are already chosen for you. If society didn't make all this such a big deal, would it be? I think very few ideologies are "clean", they often exist in opposition to other things.

You have to start with a value system, first. Mine just says "it really doesn't matter that much". From there, suffering can be evaluated on its own.

Self-loathing is a derivation also. You hate yourself because the world hates you.

We are not clean, this is not a clean slate, the whole world has always been contaminated, and you are composed of the contagion. Until that is realized you're not having this conversation with yourself, but just with what you've always been told, and so is the writer of that book.

Certainly the question if asked generally could be influenced by the general public's natural aversion to the idea. Our approach will be different since we believe that suicide can be a rational choice, but I can see what you're saying in terms of the social conditioning of a coercively optimistic world potentially impacting our analysis. I also tend to think that "it really doesn't matter that much," although I wonder if this is nihilism or just apathy. At the end of the day, I suppose it's most appropriate (as you suggest) to reference our own value system in making the decision, insofar as it can be pure and uncontaminated by society's demands of our continued existence. Unfortunately I think we are influenced by factors beyond our control either way, but it still seems practical to take a rationalistic approach to the question of suicide for our own benefit -- if we can manage to.

Whenever i see the words (in the title), either framed that way or in a different context, i'm always interested in the discussion in the replies.
Putting it in the context of "right and wrong" is always bound to trigger certain people, and it's fascinating how they would express their opinion, whatever side of the coin they may fall in.
Having said that, kudos to the OP, @druggedonsurvival. The post is well structured and clear.
My two cents:
I've read the book. In fact im happy to have discovered it, and regardless of how many devices i have or when i change phones, it's always one of those titles that I make sure I have a digital copy of. The author does make good points, and the tone (at least for me) something triggering, and it's just straight forward and logical, not much fluff.
CTB in itself isn't right or wrong. It's an individual's decision based on a number of factors that they have themselves assigned a value too. And I honestly totally agree with trying out stuff first before actually CTB'ing.
Objective, critical self-assessment should be part of the decision to CTB. It's a pro-active, not a reactive measure.
I would say based on a lot of posts, it seems to be lacking at times, but there are instances here and there that shows people have the capacity for a truly honest self-evaluation, or at least a good attempt at it.

I wish OP the best in his/her journey in self evaluation.
Myself, I would treat this as an experiment of sorts. Since the OP has people that like to talk, then I'd try and ask why they chose to interact with the OP.
Having obtained that, I would attempt to list the create the profile of these people, then i would try and either:
1) attempt to find people of the same profile, and see how my engagement with them goes
2) attempt to find people of a different profile, and see how my engagement with them goes.
Next step would probably be try and tweak how I would engage with both groups, and try it out on them.
Sorry, reply is a bit long, but yeah, it would be an interesting journey. I would not be averse to following a thread the OP documenting his/her journey.

Much appreciate the advice! I suppose the title is a bit misleading. As you mentioned, the posts here do seem to suggest that CTB is often an irrational decision. That was the idea that Stone's book made me really think about. I also agree that people here do have that ability to critically self-reflect about their decision. As a side note, I've just purchased Chris Docker's Five Last Acts (2015), which I think will be a more interesting read. If I decide to try your suggestion out I will definitely consider posting updates.

I'm not convinced you need to actually try everything to know though. Is it ok for instance to say- 'I don't want to try that'? So- as an example, some people will be willing to try every drug going- prescribed and illegal to try and make them feel better. Is that the 'right' thing to do? It could in fact help them. Or, it could make them worse. So surely then- it's a choice. A matter of weighing up the benefits and the risks. Someone isn't necessarily 'wrong' for not wanting to try something they believe will have either no effect or, make them worse.

Of course, things like depression can play a part. Am I this negative because my thinking has become pessimistically skewed? But then- it's another choice. Am I willing to put in the work on my mental health? Do I have the money or time for therapy or drugs? What if the first lot doesn't work? What if 20 therapists and 13 different drugs don't work? When has that person tried enough? Surely- when they think they have!

One thing I feel pretty sure on is- to get better or, 'recover', you need to want to. It takes effort. It might take putting your faith in other people. I doubt it would be all that successful if you half arse it. So- without that person really wanting to do those things- just how successful are they likely to be?

That is a really great point. I think it's absolutely legitimate for someone to give up when they feel they have tried enough. Figuring out whether we're willing to put in the work is an excellent consideration that is perhaps as important as (if not more so than) whether it's a "rational" decision in the first place. The fact that depression to some extent affects this decision making is what gives me pause. But depression does not necessarily make us incompetent. If anything, it allows us (in some cases) to see things that others can't. Even though I would feel insincere in trying to deny the influence of depression on my pessimistic outlook, that doesn't mean it's wrong. Overall, as you mentioned, it's best not to go in impulsively, especially since poorly planned suicides usually lead to failure and permanent injuries (and hence more suffering). That, more than anything, is what I hope users here will keep in mind if they choose to CTB.

 

[333s]

we cannot find such a solution

it may seem radical but i believe that one always can. if he sees a sense in such an action. thats the whole point
i think that life consists of one problem after another and those are supposed to be challenges
like some kind of a test to check ones strength gumption endurance
and to make those indexes a bit better
theres no life without problems and mostly people can pass all the challenges in their life. oh i think i've got you. why they would?
as i said, it's mostly just natural to try. i dont know a problem without solution. as for me, i just dont think there is a sense in solving anything
like what will i get for that? most people feel themselves better after solving their problems or they get something for that including pleasure. but what will i get? nothing? as always?
why wont i try life as an eel instead? maybe life of a non intelligent creature is more suitable for me lol

and for you, who asking this question, solving is obviously makes sense. otherwise you just wont ask that
and as long as it makes sense - yeah, that's worth trying