Venting It should be a crime to bring anything alive here, is sexual gratification worth a lifetime of suffering

[Darkover]

A fundamental ethical principle is that actions affecting others should ideally require their consent—especially when those actions impose risks and burdens. However, a person cannot consent to being born, which means they are forced into existence without their say in the matter. If we applied this standard elsewhere, forcing someone into a situation with potential suffering against their will would often be considered a crime (e.g., kidnapping, forced labor).

Every living being will experience suffering, ranging from minor discomforts to extreme agony. No matter how privileged a life may be, there are still illnesses, loss, aging, and death. For many, life includes unbearable suffering (e.g., chronic illness, depression, war, poverty). Even if someone is born into ideal conditions, they can still face unexpected misfortunes—genetic diseases, accidents, or abuse. Creating life ensures exposure to these risks.

Philosopher David Benatar argues that suffering is always bad, whereas the absence of pleasure is not bad if there is no one to be deprived of it. In other words:

If someone is born, they will suffer (which is bad).
If someone is not born, they do not suffer (which is good).
If someone is born, they may experience pleasure (which is good).
If someone is not born, they do not experience pleasure, but this is not bad because there is no one missing out.

Even if most people manage to tolerate life, some experience levels of suffering so extreme that they would prefer never to have been born. Consider those who are:

Born into extreme poverty or warzones.
Subjected to severe abuse or neglect.
Afflicted by painful, incurable diseases.
Mentally ill to the point of being suicidal for years.

If there is even a small chance of condemning someone to a torturous existence, then creating life is playing a dangerous game with another being's well-being.

There is no need to create new life. No unborn being is suffering from the absence of life. Any supposed "benefit" of existence is only a justification from the perspective of those who already exist. If no new lives are created, no harm is done.

Society criminalizes actions that cause significant harm to others. If bringing someone into existence inherently causes harm (since all life experiences suffering and eventually dies), then, under the same logic, it should be viewed as an unethical and potentially criminal act.

"But life also has happiness."

Happiness is not guaranteed, while suffering is. There are many who suffer far more than they enjoy life. Even those with good lives still experience grief, illness, and eventually death.

"Most people do not regret being born."

Many do, and those who don't may simply have been conditioned to accept life. Furthermore, not regretting something doesn't mean it was ethical. Many people adjust to bad situations, but that doesn't justify putting them there.

"If no one had children, humanity would go extinct."

That would prevent all future suffering. Extinction is only seen as "bad" from the perspective of the living, not from a neutral standpoint.

If we base laws on preventing unnecessary harm and respecting consent, then bringing a sentient being into existence—knowing they will suffer and die—could reasonably be considered a crime. Society already criminalizes actions that cause suffering to unwilling participants, and birth is arguably the ultimate example of this.

 

[Forever Sleep]

You're not wrong for us but, how can you be sure you know how the majority feels? What percentage of people do you suppose wishes they hadn't been born to begin with? I actually imagine it's fairly low. Also, would someone who truly wished they hadn't been born have children themselves? Maybe some would. Some seem to even be encouraged to have children as a kind of possible 'fix' for them. I imagine most wouldn't though.

So- the fact that people are still reproducing ought to be proof enough that they don't experience life the way we do.

As much as I'd also love for the human race to go voluntarily extinct, I just can't see it happening. Especially with people like Elon Musk at the helm propogating children all over the place.

I'm also kind of curious really. Do you think a firm natilist will come across this post and, it will change their mind? Sometimes I wonder if we begged people to think more carefully about what bringing a life here actually means. The enormity of it. A sentient being brought into a sometimes hostile world which, they won't be able to entirely protect. Plus, the fact that their offspring will be expected to pay for the 'privelage' for 50-60+ years. I just don't know that it would make a difference though. They maybe feel like they coped with life ok so- their offspring will too.

 

[Darkover]

You're not wrong for us but, how can you be sure you know how the majority feels? What percentage of people do you suppose wishes they hadn't been born to begin with? I actually imagine it's fairly low. Also, would someone who truly wished they hadn't been born have children themselves? Maybe some would. Some seem to even be encouraged to have children as a kind of possible 'fix' for them. I imagine most wouldn't though.

So- the fact that people are still reproducing ought to be proof enough that they don't experience life the way we do.

As much as I'd also love for the human race to go voluntarily extinct, I just can't see it happening. Especially with people like Elon Musk at the helm propogating children all over the place.

I'm also kind of curious really. Do you think a firm natilist will come across this post and, it will change their mind? Sometimes I wonder if we begged people to think more carefully about what bringing a life here actually means. The enormity of it. A sentient being brought into a sometimes hostile world which, they won't be able to entirely protect. Plus, the fact that their offspring will be expected to pay for the 'privelage' for 50-60+ years. I just don't know that it would make a difference though. They maybe feel like they coped with life ok so- their offspring will too.

Most people probably don't regret being born, or at least they don't consciously think about it in those terms. But how much of that is just adaptation? Humans are wired to find ways to cope, even in terrible circumstances. Most people don't question life itself; they just accept it as a given and focus on making the best of it.

As for reproduction, yeah, people having kids is a pretty strong indicator that they don't experience life the way we do. If they did, they'd likely hesitate a lot more. But some do have kids despite suffering, often for reasons beyond logic—societal pressure, the need for purpose, or even just blind hope that "this time will be different." And like you said, some even see it as a way to fix themselves, which is pretty messed up when you think about it.

I also doubt voluntary human extinction will ever happen. People like Musk and others pushing for endless growth make sure of that. The instinct to survive and reproduce is too strong, even when it leads to more suffering.

As for changing minds? That's the real question. I think most strong natalists will dismiss the argument outright. But maybe some people who are on the fence—people who already have doubts but haven't fully explored them—could be swayed. If nothing else, planting that seed of doubt might make a difference, even if it takes years for them to fully process. But yeah, most will just assume their kids will "cope" like they did, without considering the real weight of what they're doing.

 

[Zaphkiel]

You're not wrong for us but, how can you be sure you know how the majority feels? What percentage of people do you suppose wishes they hadn't been born to begin with? I actually imagine it's fairly low.

While i think most person dont even ask themselves this question, it's a fact that only a few percentile of the population lives decently.
Once you remove all the bad places (warzone, very poor/oppressive country), you're only let with a few place where it's good to be born and not have a shit life.
And even in those place, only a fraction gets to live decently, aka not working to survive, if you have a working job to begin with.

Numbers can be found all over the internet, but it's a given that most people aint that happy, even if they dont really question it because its their life and they are accustomed to it.
It open the debat about overpopulation, ressources stretched thin and the downfall of our planet wich will make it even worse for 99% of the people (+4 °C to 2100, can you believe how fucked we are?) but it would derail a lot.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Most people probably don't regret being born, or at least they don't consciously think about it in those terms. But how much of that is just adaptation? Humans are wired to find ways to cope, even in terrible circumstances. Most people don't question life itself; they just accept it as a given and focus on making the best of it.

As for reproduction, yeah, people having kids is a pretty strong indicator that they don't experience life the way we do. If they did, they'd likely hesitate a lot more. But some do have kids despite suffering, often for reasons beyond logic—societal pressure, the need for purpose, or even just blind hope that "this time will be different." And like you said, some even see it as a way to fix themselves, which is pretty messed up when you think about it.

I also doubt voluntary human extinction will ever happen. People like Musk and others pushing for endless growth make sure of that. The instinct to survive and reproduce is too strong, even when it leads to more suffering.

As for changing minds? That's the real question. I think most strong natalists will dismiss the argument outright. But maybe some people who are on the fence—people who already have doubts but haven't fully explored them—could be swayed. If nothing else, planting that seed of doubt might make a difference, even if it takes years for them to fully process. But yeah, most will just assume their kids will "cope" like they did, without considering the real weight of what they're doing.

I remember growing up watching appeals for children starving in Africa. Really horrific and heart breaking scenes- which I'm sure still go on now all over the world. It's really only relatively recently though that I began thinking- why on earth do people likely starving themselves choose to reproduce? My Dad just said it was their cultural influence. I don't know how you change that really.

That's the issue ultimately I suppose. Regarding suicide too. Anti-natilists and Right to Die exponents are fighting well established traditions and ideas. Plus, nature itself. The prime impulse of most lifeforms is to live long enough to reproduce. It's actually pretty impressive (I think,) that we are able to overwrite those impulses.

 

[galaxid]

As for reproduction, yeah, people having kids is a pretty strong indicator that they don't experience life the way we do. If they did, they'd likely hesitate a lot more. But some do have kids despite suffering, often for reasons beyond logic—societal pressure, the need for purpose, or even just blind hope that "this time will be different." And like you said, some even see it as a way to fix themselves, which is pretty messed up when you think about it.

1000% its absolutely messed up. I agree with you-- Only recently did it really occur to me how selfish it is to have a child, especially in circumstances where you can't even raise it the way it deserves. No parent is perfect, no child is perfect, but there are too many people who have kids without putting any thought into their readiness or the suffering said child is going to endure.

I'm mentally ill. If I had a kid, there's a high chance they'd be just as messed up as me. Why don't we encourage people to adopt? Why does it have to be 'let's bring a new person into the world and mess them up for funsies'? That might not be the intention, but that is often the result.

 

[Forever Sleep]

While i think most person dont even ask themselves this question, it's a fact that only a few percentile of the population lives decently.
Once you remove all the bad places (warzone, very poor/oppressive country), you're only let with a few place where it's good to be born and not have a shit life.
And even in those place, only a fraction gets to live decently, aka not working to survive, if you have a working job to begin with.

Numbers can be found all over the internet, but it's a given that most people aint that happy, even if they dont really question it because its their life and they are accustomed to it.
It open the debat about overpopulation, ressources stretched thin and the downfall of our planet wich will make it even worse for 99% of the people (+4 °C to 2100, can you believe how fucked we are?) but it would derail a lot.

I wish we could run a worldwide poll. I'd be so fascinated to see the results. I agree though. Even the 'happier' people I know in life are still struggling. Weirdly though, they still chose to reproduce and as far as I'm aware, their children aren't hating them for it (yet.)

 

[sanction]

Agreed. I have deep hatred towards my parents

 

[Namelesa]

Agreed

Also you can get sexual gratification without it causing procreation. Its called contraception or having a vasectomy/tubal ligation or having sex with someone of the same genitals as you (I am thankful of being more attracted to penises for this reason)

 

[ihatemyselfwanttodi]

B-b-b-but our billionaire oligarchs need us to have more babies for cheap labor they can take more advantage of! Think of the shareholders!

 

[divinemistress36]

Agreed

Also you can get sexual gratification without it causing procreation. Its called contraception or having a vasectomy/tubal ligation or having sex with someone of the same genitals as you (I am thankful of being more attracted to penises for this reason)

Got a Nexplanon. Best bc ever. Goes in the arm . Stops periods and prevents pregnancy. Best invention ever

 

[permanently tired]

Every time someone mentions "we'll go extinct if we don't" I start violently convulsing bc how is that a bad thing? If continuing your genetic legacy is your life's purpose, you need to reevaluate yourself.

 

[cosmic-realism]

It's sad that we don't have many people in this world who think like this.They are only confined to their flesh suits,and the articifial labels they tag themselves with.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I agree with most of the OP.

but to me pleasure is not good.

what is worth 10 hours of extreme torture like the Brazen bull torture? plus these pleasurable addictions are meaningless anyway.

i wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the many pleasurable addictions i have like watching youtube videos, social media , news , media, TV etc. for one thing these addictions waste all my time that i could've used to work getting my suicide plan and method decided and ready to go, si defeated .

imo the human species wouldn't be around if evolution DNA hadn't made humans able to feel pleasure. so every bit of suffering me ,any of us, everyone has is because of the ability to have pleasure. i wouldn't have been born and so i wouldn't have suffered.

but the worst unbearable pain is much more intense than the pleasure . so life is a scam a trap.

evolution created a torture machine the human brain. what am i? just a brain that can suffer unending constant unbearable pain.

and then pleasure to keep you distracted and wanting to live for a fleeting meaningless addiction.

i mean if humans weren't able to feel pleasure then finally they would realize that why continue to live miserably every second and end it so humans would have gone extinct long ago and i wouldn't have been born . i wish i were never born.

pleasure keeps the human species wanting to live and reproducing . all human extreme suffering is caused by pleasure addictions.

extreme pain is much more intense and long lasting than any fleeting pleasure. for example the pain of starvation can last for weeks constantly constant pain of extreme hunger for food . and then the human or other animal finds food and the starvation pain is sort of reduced but the pleasure of eating the food is fleeting . so was that worth it?

imo the pleausarable addictions lead to the most extreme torture. for example if i say i need to ctb . but then i say 1 little minute to watch youtube videos news social media . and then i end up i here all day watching youtube videos , news , social media , etc. what will that get me ? just another day older time wasted on meaningless garbage and no progress on what i want getting my suicide plan ready to go and doing it (this has been my problem for the last few years). I'll forget that crap in a few days what i watched etc. and then tomorow i could get brain damage from a stroke , heart attack, or accident tomorow or the next day . but if i would have ctb then i would not be existing and then i couldn't suffer pain at all. so i would remain alive another day to risk extreme torture because of the pleasurable addictions.

imo humans and other animals were almost always in a state of hunger. this is hidden now because of technology like super markets , uber eats, mcdonalds everywhere and the access to money that most people have . most people have a house , refrigerator full of food running water: none of this existed 70,000 years ago : you wanted to eat you had to go find and kill an animal and prepare it to eat . you wanted shoes , clothes or a tool or product you had to make it yourself out of sticks and stones good luck with that.

i'm only touching on one need one problem out of many in this entropic universe and world and life .

 

[SilentSadness]

Sadly, natural selection is the most despair-inducing event in history. It ensures that procreation and reproduction continue to happen, regardless of any arguments like this. Even if there was only suffering and everyone agreed that death is preferable to life, humans and life in general could never go extinct because there would always be some people that would procreate anyway, oblivious to what anyone else thinks and eager to begin abusing their children. An otherworldly entity or cosmic force needs to get involved at this point.

 

[sanction]

Every time someone mentions "we'll go extinct if we don't" I start violently convulsing bc how is that a bad thing? If continuing your genetic legacy is your life's purpose, you need to reevaluate yourself.

Instant reflection of their intelligence and awareness level of the true reality of this world

Definition of shallow, naive, and simple-minded

Main reason why we're all on this forum suffering, and now stuck having to end it ourselves instead