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SmallKoy

SmallKoy

Aficionado
Jan 18, 2024
230
In your opinion, is the mind - your consciousness, your self - part of the body?

If it is - what happens to it after your body dies?
If it isn't - what happens to it after your body dies?

How did you come to that conclusion?
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
Thanks for always posting such great inquisitive questions! I will get back to you in the near future when things are a little less busy on my end.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
What do you think @SmallKoy @sserafim?
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,015
I think that there's a soul which is separate from the physical body. Apparently the soul is eternal, and lives on after death
Thanks for always posting such great inquisitive questions! I will get back to you in the near future when things are a little less busy on my end.
Lol this sounds like it was written by AI
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
I think that there's a soul which is separate from the physical body. Apparently the soul is eternal, and lives on after death

Lol this sounds like it was written by AI
ChatGPT is calculating your response…
@Pluto where you at kitty? 🐈‍⬛ We want your input, my friend
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,015
ChatGPT is calculating your response…
@Pluto where you at kitty? 🐈‍⬛ We want your input, my friend
Lmfao why did you call them a kitty 😭 I'm dead
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
Lmfao why did you call them a kitty 😭 I'm dead
Pluto is our friendly neighborhood cat 🐈. It's just razzing because he(?) always posts cat related memes and his avatar is a cat. Doesn't he also run the cat mega thread? Btw Pluto, I sincerely apologize if you're actually a girl 😅
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,015
Pluto is our friendly neighborhood cat 🐈. It's just razzing because he(?) always posts cat related memes and his avatar is a cat. Doesn't he also run the cat mega thread? Btw Pluto, I sincerely apologize if you're actually a girl 😅
Lol I thought Pluto was a girl. Lmao "razzing" I've never even heard that word before 😂
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
Lol I thought Pluto was a girl
Oh… oops 😬
Sorry Pluto! Either way you're swell
Well where is she? Here kitty, kitty, kitty 🐈‍⬛
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,015
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
Lol I thought Pluto was a girl. Lmao "razzing" I've never even heard that word before
Basically just playful teasing, I think it *might* be more of a UK thing 🤷‍♂️ (just for you @sserafim) I used the male emoji
Hahaha "swell" 🤣 you're so funny lol
Lol what can I say? I just try to make people laugh and I'm an old man at heart lol
Hahaha "swell" 🤣 you're so funny lol
Would you prefer I say groovy 😎
Lol I thought Pluto was a girl. Lmao "razzing" I've never even heard that word before 😂
I think we may have scared our little friend away 🐈‍⬛
1709692363151
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
4,163
 
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D

Deleted member 8119

Warlock
Feb 6, 2024
765
Mind and body = one and the same. Deal with that 😎
 
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dragonofenvy

dragonofenvy

Mage
Oct 8, 2023
572
Well, when I think my thoughts are in my head. I can feel the thoughts in my head they're not outside my body. So if we use a more scientific approach to it rather than a philosophical one then my conclusion would be it's part of your body since I can definitely feel my thoughts if that makes any sense. When you die it dies along with you. Does it mean it's dead forever? That's where spirituality and religion come into play. My argument against that would be that some living things don't have a consciousness, so why is it that we get to be so special and have ours transported to another plane? A counter to that would be to just say that they too have consciousness, it's just primitive.
 
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T

The Ninth God

Member
Feb 8, 2024
40
Your body is made of energies, your energies are what people calls "soul" and you simply exists, from your birth to your death, in a frozen instant in time; your body is a physical manifestation and is all your being will ever be, because there's no "after" to begin with. This reality is a cage, remember that.
 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,482
I think the mind emerges from the brain. It's rooted in the brain, but isn't the brain. Just like you emerge from your constituent atoms, but aren't those atoms

Can a mind survive body destruction? People write stories about you uploading a mind, and later replaying it in a clone or computer. Dunno what happens

It could be that I don't actually persist. I don't have experience of the past, nor the future. So maybe my consciousness only lasts for an instant, or small interval. An hour later, another version of me will exist

Your mind having "emergent properties" means that it has properties that your brain doesn't. A cell has properties its atoms don't. If it's hard to wrap our heads around this, let's consider: the cell is a tiny constrained subset of possible atom configurations. Thus it has properties that the atoms normally don't
 
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leavingthesoultrap

leavingthesoultrap

(ᴗ_ ᴗ。)
Nov 25, 2023
1,212
Body is just a vessel, however 'self' is also an illusion. There is only consciousness.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
10,085
I think what we think of as ourselves- our soul- our self awareness, develops as our brains do. I think it's directly connected to the brain. When people's brains are damaged, eg. a stroke or dementia, their characters can change dramatically. Presumably, their sense of self changes with it. Plus, as babies- we aren't fully developed human beings. We mostly run on instincts. Our character grows with our brain's development. So- I personally mostly believe that our minds/ souls/ bodies are one and when the living organism dies- all of us dies with it.

But, I still have a slight spiritual bent left over from childhood, because many of my family were/are spiritual and/or religious- so, I'm not 100% sure. I just think as a species, we are very good at blowing smoke up our own arses. We're very good at convincing ourselves that we're special. So- immortality fits in very well with that. In fact, it's almost the most extreme denial. A mortal organism convincing itself that it's immortal. It's going to be kind of funny if it isn't true but then, maybe the joke will be on me if I get sent to hell or reincarnated for my blasphemy.
 
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SmallKoy

SmallKoy

Aficionado
Jan 18, 2024
230
So @SmallKoy whats your take? I'll tell you what I think if you answer first 😊
Generally, I ask these questions to gain more perspective because I don't entirely know what I think myself. I'm also taking a philosophy related class currently so I'm curious about what others think. This is a complicated question for me and I spent a lot of time pondering it yesterday.

I think that when the brain dies, that is the end of conscious experiences. That is what I would like to believe, anyway. I desire to not exist after death, even though I have no idea what that would look like. Trying to imagine what non existence looks like is impossible. The thought of having an afterlife or any sort of existence after death sounds terrible to me, so I would like to believe that we just stop existing after death. I spoke to someone about it yesterday who argued that we as energy, by law, can not die; we are recycled. I thought that was an interesting perspective. I think that my thoughts are a bit unpopular-- it seems most people generally think that the mind is separate from the body.

I think what we think of as ourselves- our soul- our self awareness, develops as our brains do. I think it's directly connected to the brain. When people's brains are damaged, eg. a stroke or dementia, their characters can change dramatically. Presumably, their sense of self changes with it. Plus, as babies- we aren't fully developed human beings. We mostly run on instincts. Our character grows with our brain's development. So- I personally mostly believe that our minds/ souls/ bodies are one and when the living organism dies- all of us dies with it.

But, I still have a slight spiritual bent left over from childhood, because many of my family were/are spiritual and/or religious- so, I'm not 100% sure. I just think as a species, we are very good at blowing smoke up our own arses. We're very good at convincing ourselves that we're special. So- immortality fits in very well with that. In fact, it's almost the most extreme denial. A mortal organism convincing itself that it's immortal. It's going to be kind of funny if it isn't true but then, maybe the joke will be on me if I get sent to hell or reincarnated for my blasphemy.
I would say I resonate with this quite a lot!
Your body is made of energies, your energies are what people calls "soul" and you simply exists, from your birth to your death, in a frozen instant in time; your body is a physical manifestation and is all your being will ever be, because there's no "after" to begin with. This reality is a cage, remember that.
Can you explain what you mean when you say "there's no "after" to begin with." ?
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
Generally, I ask these questions to gain more perspective because I don't entirely know what I think myself. I'm also taking a philosophy related class currently so I'm curious about what others think. This is a complicated question for me and I spent a lot of time pondering it yesterday.

I think that when the brain dies, that is the end of conscious experiences. That is what I would like to believe, anyway. I desire to not exist after death, even though I have no idea what that would look like. Trying to imagine what non existence looks like is impossible. The thought of having an afterlife or any sort of existence after death sounds terrible to me, so I would like to believe that we just stop existing after death. I spoke to someone about it yesterday who argued that we as energy, by law, can not die; we are recycled. I thought that was an interesting perspective. I think that my thoughts are a bit unpopular-- it seems most people generally think that the mind is separate from the body.


I would say I resonate with this quite a lot!

Can you explain what you mean when you say "there's no "after" to begin with." ?
The energy thing isn't accurate in that regard…
 
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T

The Ninth God

Member
Feb 8, 2024
40
Can you explain what you mean when you say "there's no "after" to begin with." ?
Ever heard of eternalism/block universe theory? Basically, there's no past nor future but an eternal present where everything exists now. People are terrified by premonitions because of that; you see something, knows it will happen, try to avoid it and end up failing or even causing it. The answer to "what lies after death?" is much easier to find than you think. Your dreams are allegorical images created by yourself to understand how to live, thus can be considered your own life. When you die in your dreams, you wake up. You die in your life to find yourself there again. Also, is proven that several particles can exists in more than one place simultaneously, so...if you're formed by such energies, where are you now?
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
Ever heard of eternalism/block universe theory? Basically, there's no past nor future but an eternal present where everything exists now. People are terrified by premonitions because of that; you see something, knows it will happen, try to avoid it and end up failing or even causing it. The answer to "what lies after death?" is much easier to find than you think. Your dreams are allegorical images created by yourself to understand how to live, thus can be considered your own life. When you die in your dreams, you wake up. You die in your life to find yourself there again. Also, is proven that several particles can exists in more than one place simultaneously, so...if you're formed by such energies, where are you now?
Like the block universe concept? No. I find that time is a hard illusion to shake off.
But I accept that it is a plausible explanation for the universe that I perceive.
The block universe it is at the boundary between philosophy and physics.
Ever heard of eternalism/block universe theory? Basically, there's no past nor future but an eternal present where everything exists now. People are terrified by premonitions because of that; you see something, knows it will happen, try to avoid it and end up failing or even causing it. The answer to "what lies after death?" is much easier to find than you think. Your dreams are allegorical images created by yourself to understand how to live, thus can be considered your own life. When you die in your dreams, you wake up. You die in your life to find yourself there again. Also, is proven that several particles can exists in more than one place simultaneously, so...if you're formed by such energies, where are you now?
Everything that can exist, does exist. Measuring a particles spin simply determines which thread of the multiverse your consciousness is in.
When people talk about "scientific proof of ghosts" they usually site the first law of thermodynamics: matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only change forms. So the total amount of energy and matter in the universe always remains constant. So when we die is it possible that our energy manifests as ghosts? Well not if we're gonna stay consistent. Energy is transferred into the environment meaning that human energy transfers like all other organisms energy into other life forms and plants that absorb it. There are other inconsistencies here, too. Ghosts can walk through walls and yet they can also slam doors and move stuff around. Ghost hunters monitor the temperature of the room because it gets cold in a ghost's presence. And yet if ghosts were indeed a type of energy it would be impossible for them to cool the room down. Only if ghosts were made of matter could they then absorb the heat from the room and cool it down. But if ghosts were made of matter then they would be physically observable.

Does energy dissipate and go away with increased entropy?
Or does the amount of energy stay consistent in the local universe eternally?

Concentrations dissipate, but the total is constant (AFAWK).

Is heat the only form of energy or is it simply a byproduct of it?
The most dissipated is averaging the same amount per degree of freedom, with the amount per degree of freedom being proportional to temperature.
Individual molecules each have several degrees of freedom, and are so numerous that they dominate dissipated energy*, and we call their energy "heat".
* at low enough energy and low enough density the microwave background becomes significant.
A soul is not something that you possess, it is something that you emit. When you die, you stop emitting more soul, but the soul that you have already emitted still bounces around. An example of soul would be my friend, and all the people he touched in his life that are still influenced by the way he lived, and that will in turn influence others.

Philosophy still has a place at the edge of science.
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
4,163
Let me confirm.

The universe is 13.8 billion years old, and its supposed future to heat death might extend to a googol years.
"I" never existed before and only have a few decades of existence before returning to nonexsitence, yet it is happening RIGHT NOW. Gee, what are the chances?

Even this generously assumes that time and space are what they appear to the human mind, and that "I" am whatever my conditioned thoughts say I am.

Images 1
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
Ever heard of eternalism/block universe theory? Basically, there's no past nor future but an eternal present where everything exists now. People are terrified by premonitions because of that; you see something, knows it will happen, try to avoid it and end up failing or even causing it. The answer to "what lies after death?" is much easier to find than you think. Your dreams are allegorical images created by yourself to understand how to live, thus can be considered your own life. When you die in your dreams, you wake up. You die in your life to find yourself there again. Also, is proven that several particles can exists in more than one place simultaneously, so...if you're formed by such energies, where are you now?
*rephrase that - Because in measuring you see one answer, so your consciousness must be in a universe (on a thread) where that is the answer.
Let me confirm.

The universe is 13.8 billion years old, and its supposed future to heat death might extend to a googol years.
"I" never existed before and only have a few decades of existence before returning to nonexsitence, yet it is happening RIGHT NOW. Gee, what are the chances?

Even this generously assumes that time and space are what they appear to the human mind, and that "I" am whatever my conditioned thoughts say I am.

View attachment 131222
I don't know of any good evidence for a perpetual universe, but I still keep my mind open to it.

Heat death matches what we currently know, but so does "the big rip" (if dark energy increases over time). The big crunch is not ruled out, but would take new physics.

The universe might be eternal to the past, as well as to the future. The simplest theory for that is described in "Steady state eternal inflation", formulated by Anthony Aguirre and Steve Gratton, and available free online: It is compatible with observations of the Cosmic Microwave Background, and is centered on a Cauchy surface from which time extends in opposite spatial directions. A similar but somewhat more elaborate cosmology, by Carroll and Chen, is analyzed, together with the Aguirre-Gratton one, by Vilenkin, in his online paper "Arrows of time and the beginning of the universe".
The Borde-Guth-Vilenkin Theorem is usually construed as preventing the "past eternality" of inflation by requiring a balancing of universal expansion by universal contraction, but the references in the last (2003) formulation of that theorem by its three authors include a footnote exempting the Aguirre & Gratton theory from its strictures. Also, the BGV Theorem does not rule out a start of the universe at arbitrarily long times before the start of inflation (quasi-exponential expansion), as hypothesized in Martin Bojowald's 2010 book titled "Once Before Time: A Whole Story of the Universe", which utilizes Loop Quantum Cosmology. Some of the "bouncing" cosmologies, of which the Wiki "Big Bounce" provides an overview, also imply past eternality, and substitute a repetition of "bounces" for the "Big Bang".
What these cosmologists, as well as the three mentioned in the last of my comments below, are trying to do is resolve that contradiction of infinite density in the zero volume of the singularity at which General Relativity has been considered to break down: Because densities in "negative time" might cancel densities in"positive time", the densities of the objects duplicated in either version of the temporal dimension might cancel each other, thereby replacing that contradiction with zero density in zero volume, which makes sense.
I believe that a widespread misconception leading to the belief that the universe, or its massive and energetic contents, are finite is the fact that their limitation to some finite amount would provide the simplest explanation for the fact that the sky is dark at night: However, because of the fact that expansion is different from speed or velocity, and is (consequently) NOT limited to a rate no higher than the speed of light, such accelerations as were witnessed by the Supernova 1A observations in the late 1990's are entirely permissible in General Relativity. The simplest explanations do not necessarily provide the best explanation of scientific phenomena.

youtube.com/watch?v=gfYYkC-TO4k, Guth gives a 2018 lecture supporting a past- and future-infinite multiverse based on the possibility of entropy being infinite, with details being worked out in collaboration with Sean Carroll. As in BGV's exemption of Aguirre's past- and future-infinite proposal, the BGV Theorem would apply separately. in each of the two directions outward from a Cauchy surface. Both of these theories resemble the mathematician Barbour's "Janus universe". The astronomical facts detailed by Pela would apply in whichever of the two halves we find ourselves.


The consensus for more than 40 years is that inflation happened before the Big Bang. There was this rapid expansion of space-time but the Big Bang is more actually like the dumping of energy into this place. Plank-order seconds after the Big Bang all of this was happening. The Big Bang doesn't have much to do with the expansion of the universe. It has a lot more to do with the dumping pf energy. Mass and energy are fundamentally related and they come from quantum fields. The expansion was already happening and we know the universe is expanding due to dark energy. The Big Bang is just the moment of creation in the sense of the stuff in this place that we know of. Before the Big Bang we know there was only inflation. We can only say from what we currently understand, what happened at the end stages of inflation. Before those final stages of inflation we don't know what happened. Some people think the universe might have started in a singularity. Before those final stages of inflation the universe was very small so people just jump to the logical conclusion of maybe it started in a singularity. Presumably quantum fields also existed before the Big Bang, so we don't know where they came from. It makes sense to say that outside of space-time itself there may not be time because time is part of this thing and its interwoven with space in some weird way. But that would be looking at General Relativity and taking what it says very seriously so it all gets very tricky.
Let me confirm.

The universe is 13.8 billion years old, and its supposed future to heat death might extend to a googol years.
"I" never existed before and only have a few decades of existence before returning to nonexsitence, yet it is happening RIGHT NOW. Gee, what are the chances?

Even this generously assumes that time and space are what they appear to the human mind, and that "I" am whatever my conditioned thoughts say I am.

View attachment 131222
Firstly, we think space and time are deeply connected, and objects that are at high energies partially rotate through space-time. See the great interactive explanations here: Inside Einstein's head

To unify relativity and quantum pictures, we know there is a conceptual conflict between the quantum picture where time is treated externally from the models, and relativity where time varies depending on observer dynamics. The limits of 'quantising' relativity are shown by canonical quantum gravity. But 'relativising' quantum theories has also been limited to combining special relativity. It is currently impossible to measure gravity at small scales appropriate to quantum behaviour, so where general relativity and quantum scales collide, in blackholes and in the early universe for instance, we don't have a clear account. Loop-quantum gravity, and Twistor theory, are examples of approaches with a more fundamental layer from which spacetime is emergent.

It's important to think about what space does. Noether's theorem shows us that conservation laws are directly equivalent to continuous symmetries under transformation. That is, we link it's shape to the paths objects will take with no forces acting on them, where momentum is conserved.

The other crucial property of space is expressed as the principle of locality: that an object is influenced directly only by its immediate surroundings, and signals are fundamentally limited by spatial seperation. This is another way of talking about the expectation there will be no action-at-a-distance, which has been a very useful guideline in developing and distinguishing physics from non-physics. Entanglement challenges locality, with the Bell Theorem showing if hidden variables lead to entanglement correlations they must be non-local. That has led to the EPR = ER hypothesis, the idea entanglement information travels down Einstein-Rosen bridges, often dubbed wormholes.



put more eloquently, a space in physics and math is just a way of ordering things. It's common to say causality makes the spacetime ordering the necessarily correct or fundamental one, but from the symmetry-conservation laws point, we can see that in line with Hume's Problem of Induction, what we have is not necessary connections, but Real Patterns. Discussed here: Is the idea of a causal chain physical (or even scientific)?

But, our intuitions that give rise to the symmetries we base our shared use of math on, relate to the necessarily shared experiences of space we have, in order for our chemistry and biology to behave the way they do. Discussed here: The Unreasonable Ineffectiveness of Mathematics in most sciences So space doesn't seem to be fundamental to the universe, but it does seem to be fundamental to how minds work, with 'Flatlanders' or higher-dimensional beings having radically fundamentally different phenomena to those we experience, and our language and learning is rooted in intersubjectivity and common experiences.

A mathematical space is any ordered arrangement of different properties. As long as you have some properties, you can order them into a space, and there's nothing in principle more fundamental about any particular set of properties or scheme of ordering them.

However, geometrical distance-space is special in that:

  • there are a small finite number of dimensions worth of similar properties, which makes 'computing' translations and rotations in the space trivial in places where those dimensions are approximately orthogonal
  • the dimensions are approximately orthogonal most places in the universe - that is, you can change x position without significantly changing y, z, and (if you're using 4-space) ct position as they would be measured from the original position. (Or change radial position without changing polar and azimuthal angle, or whatever other coordinate system you prefer to use to represent spatial dimensions.)
  • disruptions in this approximate orthogonality (gravity) are themselves spherically symmetrical, which preserves the approximate orthogonality across vast extensions of these dimensions
  • information about the positioning of processes in geometric space is easy to get (from electromagnetic interactions, which exhibit symmetry in the way they propagate in any direction in distance-space)
  • information about distance-space is especially salient to the survival and reproduction of machines that run on electromagnetic interactions
  • because of the above symmetries, ability to obtain and act on information about distance-space remains salient across large displacements in distance-space and time, often even when environment changes.
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
4,163
What would happen if all the answers to the mightiest questions in the cosmos were known completely, conclusively and comprehensively?

Would such a learned being naturally want to wipe its own memory and enter a virtual realm of not-knowing for the sheer adventure of earning back its own completeness?
 
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