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J

Jojogu

Member
Feb 2, 2021
53
A mother said she was left "in the wilderness" trying to find out information from tech companies after her daughter took her own life.

Judy Thomas's 15-year-old child Frankie died five years ago after viewing self-harm material online.

The family repeatedly tried to get information and were left "absolutely at a loss," she told Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg.

She and other bereaved families are campaigning for a change in the law.

They want an amendment to the Online Safety Bill going through Parliament, which would allow families and coroners to enlist the support of the regulator Ofcom in helping them legally obtain the information from tech companies about the material their children were accessing prior to their deaths.

Frankie, who had autism, was found dead at her home in Witley in Surrey in September 2018.

An inquest heard she had taken her own life, after spending months viewing graphic content about suicide and self-harm on school laptops and iPads.

Ms Thomas told the programme the family had "no idea why Frankie had taken her own life".

"We wrote online to Instagram. This went on for about a year with no answers.

In an emotional interview she recalled: "We wanted to speak to somebody and just say, would you help us? We were devastated... we just wanted to know."

Ms Thomas added: "We would have really appreciated the platforms coming to the inquest as they were requested to."

Baroness Kidron, the online safety campaigner, is working with the bereaved families in calling for the amendment.

The group - which also includes the father of Molly Russell, who also died after viewing suicide content online - has written to the prime minister, justice secretary, and secretary of state for science and technology calling for the law to be changed.

Baroness Kidron said there needed to be "a proper formal route for parents and for coroners to get the kind of information we need to see."

She told the programme the inquest into Frankie's death "opened and closed" without all the information the family needed from the tech firms.

"My inbox is full of bereaved families who want access to data.

"The coroner service has not managed to get that information, families have not managed to get that information.

"It is inhuman, and the sort of distress that is happening all of these years later is unacceptable."

She said the amendment had support across the Lords and the Commons.

The letter sent to the government - and seen by the BBC - says: "We have each lost a child in circumstances relating to the digital world, and we have each struggled to gain information we needed to understand more about their deaths. Sadly, each year, there are hundreds of families who find themselves in similarly distressing circumstances.

"The process of attempting to access data has been inhumane. In some cases, it has taken years, and we have been left in automated loops, speaking to online bots, as though we were contacting lost property."

Lawyers for Molly Russell's father Ian have also written to the government saying there is still, even five years later, information Meta has not provided to them relating to her death.

They say: "Meta for example, never disclosed records of what content was promoted to Molly on Instagram; they disclosed some of the harmful content Molly saved or liked only weeks before the final inquest; and the initial disclosure was provided in a manner wholly inaccessible to Molly's family."

The families will be in Parliament this week pressing their case.

Ms Thomas said in some respects she did "despair" over the situation but added it would be brilliant if the government now took the opportunity to act.

Meta, who owns Instagram - one of the sites accessed by Frankie - apologised to her family for the experience they had when they first contacted them.

A spokesperson for Meta said: "What the Thomas family have been through is devastating and our deepest sympathies are with them and anyone affected by suicide.

"This is a challenging and complex issue, and we must comply with our privacy and data protection obligations. We've been in touch with the family and want to be as helpful as we can during this time."

The inquest in Frankie's death heard she went on a platform called Wattpad where users can write and share stories, with the last piece she read mirroring the method she used to take her own life that afternoon.

Wattpad said it sent a statement to the coroner.

"We were deeply saddened to learn of the heartbreaking case of Frankie Thomas. Our sympathies continue to be with Frankie's family and loved ones," it said.

"Wattpad participated in the coroner's inquest, sending a robust witness statement to the Surrey Coroner's Office on July 7th 2021 as part of the proceeding. Wattpad's focus has been, and continues to be, to create a safe, inclusive, and respectful space for readers and writers online."

BBC News
 
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Walpurgisnacht

Walpurgisnacht

Lavender
Feb 25, 2023
131
It can never be the parents' fault it's always someone else's. Every fucking time. "Make the government force internet forums to raise my child the way I want because i can't be fucked monitoring their internet usage."
Why are parents so entitled? They are entitled to the lives and bodies of their children, and are entitled to what they do with those lives and bodies, and are even entitled to make random strangers do their job for them.
You shouldn't just leave your kid unsupervised on the internet regardless. Fml.

our deepest sympathies are with them and anyone affected by suicide.
But not anyone that's actually suicidal themselves right? No it's always the parents that are really suffering, with the aftermath of their bad parenting and its effects on their children.
Suicidal people should be ignored and marginalised even more for the sake of allowing others to force them to endure their suffering as to not make their parents bear any of the consequences of their own actions.
 
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SilentSadness

SilentSadness

The rain pours eternally.
Feb 28, 2023
1,140
Of course they didn't know why she did it, they only ever pay any attention after the suicide and I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of indifference from others played a role. Not to invalidate the parents' suffering though, life is a tragedy and everyone suffers a great deal. It would be so much better if people never procreated to cause this mess in the first place. I just wish that people wouldn't look to blame anything but the actual problem (life itself.)
 
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Octavia

Octavia

“I’d… rather kill myself.”
Mar 4, 2023
363
They never see things coming, do they?
 
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L

Lostandlooking

In limbo
Jul 23, 2020
458
It's hard to judge what is going on here. I feel for her mom and the rest of her family. She sounds so distressed talking about it. It must be so difficult trying to get a sense of closure.

She was a child with special needs, she had autism. I wonder if she had trouble navigating the world around her and if that's a clue as to why she killed herself. (does her mom make this connection?)

There was a suicide note. Sadly it seems it didn't answer why she committed suicide.

I wonder if the answer is to be found in her social media accounts. And what she would have wanted in regards to that. She was 15 years old. Not legally an adult, but that doesn't mean you can't have privacy.

I also wonder what answer would be satisfactory to the mom. Is she really looking for the answer to the why, or is she searching for someone to blame? (I don't want to jump to conclusions. So for me it's simply that: inconclusive)

Even though I worked on it quite a bit, I feel like my own suicide note is lengthy and moany. But in the end I think it's good to give some account of what has happened that made you want to commit suicide. So that hopefully, cases like this will be avoided. Although it's hard to say if someone would believe my reasons for suicide as stated. It's hard to say how this can be avoided. Having it spelled out clearly, for family and loved ones seems like a good starting point.
 
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anx_out

anx_out

Anx
Feb 9, 2023
15
oh fuck those parents. they failed their daughter and now try to shift the blame on the internet? i'm sure the daughter would hate for them to get access to her data... it's such a breach of privacy.
 
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KuriGohan&Kamehameha

KuriGohan&Kamehameha

想死不能 - 想活不能
Nov 23, 2020
1,744
These articles always leave out crucial information about the person's situation, details which could be key for understanding why that poor girl made such a tragic decision. Only a brief mention in that article that she had autism. It has been shown in studies that 11-66% of autistic people have contemplated suicide, and up to 35% had planned or attempted suicide. That should be the relevant headline here.

In many of these public suicide cases, there is a shockingly obvious common denominator: Autism. A recent poll showed that a sizable chunk of members on this forum are autistic, which should shed some light on the origins of our suicidality.

Yet, the journalists never get to the heart of the matter, which is that autistic people are more likely to experience comobird physical and mental illnesses, we are more likely to be unemployed and without strong relationships in our lives, we are often marginalised and propped up as cringey lolcow type figures for others to spectate and mock out of public amusement.. I could go on and on about how life as an autistic person can often be challenging and grim. That's not an engaging news story though, it's far easier to scapegoat "big tech" rather than fix the problems which lead someone to search for suicide related queries on social media in the first place.

Looking at self-harm related material online tends to be an EFFECT of existing suicidality, rather than a cause. I don't think laypeople understand that there is always an underlying motivation for why someone would seeks out what is viewed as harmful content. People do not search for content about self-harm and suicide unless there's already an itch in their brain that they are trying to scratch by obtaining more information about it. They do not just stumble upon these posts out of morbid curiosity, then get sucked into a black hole of despair, there has to be a deliberate and premeditated search for those posts to see them in your feed.

As always, these calls to action fixate on silencing channels where suicidal or self-harming individuals congregate and express themselves, rather than addressing why people seek those platforms out in the first place. It's quite easy to code an algorithm to ban key suicide related phrases and stamp out speech, it's another matter entirely to actually do something to help those who are crying out in pain online.
 
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Archness

Archness

Defective Personel
Jan 20, 2023
490
These articles always leave out crucial information about the person's situation, details which could be key for understanding why that poor girl made such a tragic decision. Only a brief mention in that article that she had autism. It has been shown in studies that 11-66% of autistic people have contemplated suicide, and up to 35% had planned or attempted suicide. That should be the relevant headline here.

In many of these public suicide cases, there is a shockingly obvious common denominator: Autism. A recent poll showed that a sizable chunk of members on this forum are autistic, which should shed some light on the origins of our suicidality.

Yet, the journalists never get to the heart of the matter, which is that autistic people are more likely to experience comobird physical and mental illnesses, we are more likely to be unemployed and without strong relationships in our lives, we are often marginalised and propped up as cringey lolcow type figures for others to spectate and mock out of public amusement.. I could go on and on about how life as an autistic person can often be challenging and grim. That's not an engaging news story though, it's far easier to scapegoat "big tech" rather than fix the problems which lead someone to search for suicide related queries on social media in the first place.

Looking at self-harm related material online tends to be an EFFECT of existing suicidality, rather than a cause. I don't think laypeople understand that there is always an underlying motivation for why someone would seeks out what is viewed as harmful content. People do not search for content about self-harm and suicide unless there's already an itch in their brain that they are trying to scratch by obtaining more information about it. They do not just stumble upon these posts out of morbid curiosity, then get sucked into a black hole of despair, there has to be a deliberate and premeditated search for those posts to see them in your feed.

As always, these calls to action fixate on silencing channels where suicidal or self-harming individuals congregate and express themselves, rather than addressing why people seek those platforms out in the first place. It's quite easy to code an algorithm to ban key suicide related phrases and stamp out speech, it's another matter entirely to actually do something to help those who are crying out in pain online.
I don't get what's with parents and "finding the reason", they just want to blame something and make it go away instead of actually fixing the problems. Anything easy to blame and destroy to feel like they "did something".


11-66% of autistic people have contemplated suicide, and up to 35% had planned or attempted suicide. That should be the relevant headline here.

In many of these public suicide cases, there is a shockingly obvious common denominator: Autism. A recent poll showed that a sizable chunk of members on this forum are autistic, which should shed some light on the origins of our suicidality.
Uh oh, don't say that out loud. They might try to find a "cure" or "final solution" for autism. But for real, if it turned out there wasn't anything out of the ordinary and nothing else to blame they'd just blame autism itself.

But with those facts you mentioned, it makes me wonder if autism itself makes one more open to the idea of suicide. My own environment was far from terrible yet here I am.
 
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Walpurgisnacht

Walpurgisnacht

Lavender
Feb 25, 2023
131
I don't get what's with parents and "finding the reason", they just want to blame something and make it go away instead of actually fixing the problems. Anything easy to blame and destroy to feel like they "did something".
It's a cope, and unhealthy one. They're in denial that any possible blame could be placed on them not doing their jobs. It's pure scapegoating; projecting their own guilt into contempt for others. They refuse to believe that they even could've played a role, so they invent an enemy to tear down instead.

In every case of something like this, regardless of if the child's parents were outwardly abusive or not; there is a reason their child ended up in these places without their knowledge, there is a reason why they never picked up any possible signs, there is a reason why strangers on the internet were deemed a safer environment for expressing their pain than their own family was.
Every single time this happens there is at least a degree of neglect behind it, if not far more.

No one wants to acknowledge that, they go through the most delusional mental gymnastics to try and make it sound plausible but it's just denial, and they're not letting themselves move one at all by being stuck burning a strawman then making it again and burning it again and again and again.
They're not letting themselves grieve properly by going on these obsessive internet witch hunts and weaponising their trauma to hurt people in the exact same situation their child was in; suffering, vulnerable, and desperate.

It's never about empathy, it never was, it's trying everything to avoid accepting responsibility.
If you have a child, you are responsible for that child's well-being, not internet strangers and "big tech" conspiracies.
 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,482
Parents face some of the ridiculousness we face. If she didn't lash out, maybe her peers would humiliate her. Whereas now she probably gets lots of support

We're social animals and social pressure is a huge factor in people's actions

And we have to remember, parents don't get much training, pay or support. On the flipside, almost any rando can just birth babies without the dedication to be good at raising children
 
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V

virgilwalks

Student
Apr 7, 2022
115
A 15 year old is not an adult - this is a difficult scenario.
 
Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
4,163
A 15 year old is not an adult - this is a difficult scenario.
They are not an adult, which means that we need to assign some blame to caregivers. Was bullying permitted at school? Was needed support lacking? Were parents emotionally unavailable, having excessive expectations or lacking in understanding?

The role of tech firms is more likely to be the usual brain-hacking, which is considered acceptable because it's a psychological abuse that the entire population is subjected to. Beyond that, blaming the method is like blaming trains, which have traditionally been a common method for your people in despair.

The problem in my experience is that when disaster strikes, everyone focuses attention on external causative factors - of which there are several - and covers their own ass in the process. It is understandable that traumatised parents will do this, but manufacturing a convenient narrative does nothing to prevent these things happening again.
 
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Veraz

Veraz

Member
Feb 23, 2023
38
A recent poll showed that a sizable chunk of members on this forum are autistic, which should shed some light on the origins of our suicidality.
Do you have a link to this poll, by any chance? I have been kind of curious about this lately, after noticing that a surprisingly large chunk of the people here have said they are autistic, and I myself am as well... so it's gotten me curious about the actual numbers.
 
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borderline-feline

borderline-feline

Constantly Sleepy Catgirl
Dec 28, 2022
644
Maybe she wouldn't've been in such a state that she saw death as the best option if she had parents who actually loved and cared about her. It may not have made a difference, but at least she wouldn't've had shitty parents.

When a teenager ends their life, the parents are almost always to blame in some capacity. People shouldn't have kids if they aren't willing to do the bare minimum to keep watch over them and take care of them.
 
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