Near death and out of body experiences.

[pauly369]

Im skeptical of NDE and OBE experiences.
Psychedelic drugs can induce the NDE and OBE phenomena, meaning that its just a chemical reaction and not some spiritual experience.
Deep samhadi meditation can also produce the out of body experience, yet you are very much alive while experiencing it.
Also, people who have had near death experiences have never actually died because they have never achieved full brain death.
They have simply stopped breathing, or their heart has stopped.
Doctors also see a surge in gamma waves after someones heart has stopped, provoking brain activity toward the back of the head and behind the ear.
These areas are associated with dreams and both the NDE and OBE.

 

[derpyderpins]

Psychedelic drugs can induce the NDE and OBE phenomena, meaning that its just a chemical reaction and not some spiritual experience.

Interesting conclusion. Relies on the premise that Psychedelic drugs only produce a chemical reaction.

To me, what you are talking about with brain functions makes me less skeptical. (Not just gamma waves. I'm no expert but it in my digging increased theta and decreased use of the default modal network seem to be key).

The question is - what is meant by "spiritual"?

I think the answer can be something beyond the chemical reactions we're currently able to measure without it being cartoonish "magic" and a literal "soul."

Meditation, psychedelics, dreaming, increasing certain brain activity and decreasing others - I want to use these things specifically to tap into whatever is happening during NDEs/OBEs.

 

[artificialpasta]

You're not skeptical of the experience itself then, just the claim that there's something spiritual going on.
I don't think they're very good refutations of materialism either.

 

[Aergia]

This whole debate is so tired imo. I wish there were more empirical studies done in this regard. When people say that "science" proves materialism they're usually talking about the thing-that-academic-institutions do, not the epistemic method that relies on testing hypotheses in the real world.

For instance, I wish this was how conversations on the subject went. I'd find a piece of evidence like this to be actually valuable:



"Spiritual" experiences can and do have biochemical triggers, but I don't think that proves materialism beyond a doubt. Interactionist dualism is a position that holds that the mind is immaterial but interacts with the material body (brain). So you might see gamma brainwaves during "spiritual" experiences, but that doesn't mean the brainwaves fully describe the experience; it could just mean those particular frequencies have an impact on the "soul" or vice versa.

 

[pauly369]

This whole debate is so tired imo. I wish there were more empirical studies done in this regard. When people say that "science" proves materialism they're usually talking about the thing-that-academic-institutions do, not the epistemic method that relies on testing hypotheses in the real world.

For instance, I wish this was how conversations on the subject went. I'd find a piece of evidence like this to be actually valuable:

View attachment 162981

"Spiritual" experiences can and do have biochemical triggers, but I don't think that proves materialism beyond a doubt. Interactionist dualism is a position that holds that the mind is immaterial but interacts with the material body (brain). So you might see gamma brainwaves during "spiritual" experiences, but those frequencies could just be correlated with certain experiences the "soul" has, not the cause of them.

If we had an eternal spirit within our bodies, then surely we would be super intelligent and all knowing.
We are just dumb meat sacks with a brain that has a multitude of design flaws.

You're not skeptical of the experience itself then, just the claim that there's something spiritual going on.
I don't think they're very good refutations of materialism either.

Ive done loads of mushrooms and acid and entered into a serious meditation practice, along with a kundalini awakening.
Experienced the whole OBE spirit bullshit phenomena etc.
Im 100% convinced its nothing but brain activity.