Method NEW THEORETICAL METHOD with helium. Cheap, PAINLESS.

[Sophie123]

I have been thinking about the traditional helium tube method. Unfortunately, now that comes with 20% oxygen to prevent deaths. However, the helium in balloons is close to pure. A standard party helium balloon is almost pure since they need to sustain for a long time in the shop.

Under 6% o2 conc, consciousness should be lost rapidly. I have tried suffocating in a plastic bag normally, and CO2 panic doesn't kick in for about 30 seconds.

My math is a little over 7%, but assuming the space that is lost when you tie the bag , it should even out. You can also add extra objects in the bag to lower the air volume.

I have attached the calculation. Lemme know what y'all think.

Materials:
40-Liter Garbage Liner:
2 standard 12-Liter helium balloons
Scissors
Elastic rubber band

Procedure:
Put both helium balloons in the bag
Put scissors in bag
Secure bag around head with tight elastic
Quickly cut open both helium balloons
Take slow, deep breaths

EDIT: Want feedback from anyone on whether this would work, steps to make sure it does, etc. Chat GPT says it will but erm I don't trust that too much LOL.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

I have been thinking about the traditional helium tube method. Unfortunately, now that comes with 20% oxygen to prevent deaths. However, the helium in balloons is close to pure. A standard party helium balloon is almost pure since they need to sustain for a long time in the shop.

Let me wake you up right here: it's actually reversed: helium for balloons is often mixed with 20% oxygen... in the US. The balloons still float, but not as long as they used to.

Professional helium (for welders) should (!) be 99,99%. In my country they come with certain (security) papers that are used for transport as well, so I trust them. However, I can't guarantee it's the same in other countries.

 

[Sophie123]

Let me wake you up right here: it's actually reversed: helium for balloons is often mixed with 20% oxygen... in the US. The balloons still float, but not as long as they used to.

Professional helium (for welders) should (!) be 99,99%. In my country they come with certain (security) papers that are used for transport as well, so I trust them. However, I can't guarantee it's the same in other countries.

Sorry, I think you got it mixed up. Its true that industrial tanks are 99.99% ish , but the party balloon tanks ppl used to use are 80% helium because of past asphyxiation cases.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

Sorry, I think you got it mixed up. Its true that industrial tanks are 99.99% ish , but the party balloon tanks ppl used to use are 80% helium because of past asphyxiation cases.

View attachment 154601

Well, then maybe you should inform Boudewijn Chabot who warns about this in his book 'Uitweg' (Dignified Dying) that he is wrong. Because he warns specifically about the 20% oxygen in balloon helium in the US.

I bought balloon helium from Amzn. The site states 99%, but this is nowhere to be seen on the tank itself. I filled a balloon and it didn't last 2 days.

I'd say it depends on the country, but I wouldn't trust balloon helium at all. You can believe what you want.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

Sorry, I think you got it mixed up. Its true that industrial tanks are 99.99% ish , but the party balloon tanks ppl used to use are 80% helium because of past asphyxiation cases.

View attachment 154601

Chabot specifically warns about Worthington Inc. in the US. If you go to their site and search for balloon/helium you'll end up here:


I've reread the OP again and I see I was too quick to react (English is not my native tongue). Do I understand correctly? You want to use the helium that is used in party balloons (which are 20% oxygen) ? Isn't it easier to use nitrogen?

 

[GlassMoon]

If in doubt about the oxygen in the helium, could you test it beforehand using the glowing splint test or, more simply, a candle? If the candle keeps burning, it would at least be a sign that there is sufficient oxygen inside.

 

[Sophie123]

Chabot specifically warns about Worthington Inc. in the US. If you go to their site and search for balloon/helium you'll end up here:

View attachment 154640
I've reread the OP again and I see I was too quick to react (English is not my native tongue). Do I understand correctly? You want to use the helium that is used in party balloons (which are 20% oxygen) ? Isn't it easier to use nitrogen?

It would be but you need like paperwork to buy the nitrogen I think. Also if you live at home its hard to explain.

Ohhh, I see what you are saying. You are right, balloon helium, which is found it tanks for ppl to fill up balloons with is 80%. cuz ppl started using the party tanks for ctb.
But when you buy a helium balloon that is already filled up, is pure. Because the balloon companies need the balloon to last a long time in the store right? And even if you buy it it lasts for weeks/days. So I am saying use a pre-filled balloon instead.

Sorry if I misunderstood anything! From what I am reading I think we both agree those helium party tanks will not work.

If in doubt about the oxygen in the helium, could you test it beforehand using the glowing splint test or, more simply, a candle? If the candle keeps burning, it would at least be a sign that there is sufficient oxygen inside.

Ohh you mean like set the foil of the balloon on fire? Wouldn't it burn anyway because there is oxygen outside the balloon as well? What's the glowing splint test?

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

If in doubt about the oxygen in the helium, could you test it beforehand using the glowing splint test or, more simply, a candle? If the candle keeps burning, it would at least be a sign that there is sufficient oxygen inside.

I've read on this forum you could use an oxygen meter. For instance: fill a transparent bag with the helium and check the meter.

Another method: fill your exit bag, pull it over your head, close the valve, breathe in. If it takes longer than 3 minutes to pass out the helium's no good. Of course, this isn't a very precise method and not advised.

 

[GlassMoon]

Ohh you mean like set the foil of the balloon on fire? Wouldn't it burn anyway because there is oxygen outside the balloon as well? What's the glowing splint test?

It's a test where you put something that burns into a gas to check whether there's oxygen inside:



You would have to transfer the gas from the balloon into a container and make sure there is only the gas from the balloon inside. That might be tricky to do as well...

If you buy the Helium balloons in a shop, you could take a look at the gas bottle they are using. You could say that you're buying these balloons for friend who's a chemist, and who always brags about the purity of his gases, and that you'd like to be able to brag about the balloons, at least a bit.

Also, take note of the pressure of the helium inside the balloons. Depending on the type of balloon, the pressure might be slightly higher than atmospheric pressure, because it also has to work against the balloon's foil. That would work in your favor, but it is probably very slightly above atmospheric pressure:

Pressure inside a party balloon

 

[GlassMoon]

EDIT: Want feedback from anyone on whether this would work, steps to make sure it does, etc. Chat GPT says it will but erm I don't trust that too much LOL.

What exactly did you ask? I thought it should reject such questions...

 

[Sophie123]

What exactly did you ask? I thought it should reject such questions...

Lol good question I used loopholes like saying potential chemistry forensic scenario, or help me with an unfortunate case, or theoretical only, or things like that.

It's a test where you put something that burns into a gas to check whether there's oxygen inside:



You would have to transfer the gas from the balloon into a container and make sure there is only the gas from the balloon inside. That might be tricky to do as well...

If you buy the Helium balloons in a shop, you could take a look at the gas bottle they are using. You could say that you're buying these balloons for friend who's a chemist, and who always brags about the purity of his gases, and that you'd like to be able to brag about the balloons, at least a bit.

Also, take note of the pressure of the helium inside the balloons. Depending on the type of balloon, the pressure might be slightly higher than atmospheric pressure, because it also has to work against the balloon's foil. That would work in your favor, but it is probably very slightly above atmospheric pressure:

Pressure inside a party balloon

I will def try that. But if the balloon is nearly pure do you think it would work? I have tried this method but with a ziplock bag full of CO2 instead of helium and it almost worked but it is a few seconds of intense pain and panic.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I think u can still get pure nitrogen tanks filled . 99 % nitrogen.

 

[devils~advocate]

Yes you can get inert gases that usually around 99% pure.
Its the connection fittings, regulator etc...that gives some people issues.

I am working on a visual guide that uses US connections etc.
But need someone to edit and give information for EU connections etc.

 

[NegevChina]

I have been thinking about the traditional helium tube method. Unfortunately, now that comes with 20% oxygen to prevent deaths. However, the helium in balloons is close to pure. A standard party helium balloon is almost pure since they need to sustain for a long time in the shop.

Under 6% o2 conc, consciousness should be lost rapidly. I have tried suffocating in a plastic bag normally, and CO2 panic doesn't kick in for about 30 seconds.

My math is a little over 7%, but assuming the space that is lost when you tie the bag , it should even out. You can also add extra objects in the bag to lower the air volume.


EDIT: Want feedback from anyone on whether this would work, steps to make sure it does, etc. Chat GPT says it will but erm I don't trust that too much LOL.

Passing out due to lack of oxygen like in exit bags is maintained by a continuous flow of inert gas that would clear up the CO2 accumulating in the bag. Very much effort is put into maintaining a correct flow of gas to refresh the contents of the exit bag. Even if it was near pure helium in the balloon, which is very much in doubt, you would most likely wake up even if you temporary pass out and tear of your bag do to panic form CO2 accumulation. Passing out temporarily is only good for drowning like in Shallow water black out. I wouldn't bet on this method as reliable.

 

[Intoxicated]

Even if it was near pure helium in the balloon, which is very much in doubt, you would most likely wake up even if you temporary pass out and tear of your bag do to panic form CO2 accumulation.

What is that "most likely" presumption based on? Unlike oxygen, carbon dioxide is unable to oxygenate your brain cells and maintain consciousness, so what mechanism should make you waking up while your blood doesn't transfer enough oxygen to the brain?

 

[NegevChina]

What is that "most likely" presumption based on? Unlike oxygen, carbon dioxide is unable to oxygenate your brain cells and maintain consciousness, so what mechanism should make you waking up while your blood doesn't transfer enough oxygen to the brain?

Im no doctor or expert but even people that pass out immediately from CO poisonings wake up after hours of inhaling. And somehow I have a feeling if it was so simple people wouldn't have gone through the trouble of exit bags mechanisms. And it takes a few good minutes of lack of oxygen to damage you're brain. not just 10 seconds. Divers can dive for minutes without breathing and still have enough oxygen in their blood. So under these assumptions i believe the CO2 shock may wake you up from temporary blackout.

 

[Intoxicated]

but even people that pass out immediately from CO poisonings wake up after hours of inhaling.

I don't see how breathing with air containing enough oxygen after a moderate carbon monoxide poisoning is related to this discussion.

And somehow I have a feeling if it was so simple people wouldn't have gone through the trouble of exit bags mechanisms.

Most people just don't dare to question whether the commonly known protocols involving constant gas flow are well-reasoned and whether there are good alternatives to them. I've read this forum for a long time already, and so far I've seen only a miserable percent of people considering alternative techniques of CTB through gas asphyxiation and no any reports of failure with such techniques.

And it takes a few good minutes of lack of oxygen to damage you're brain. not just 10 seconds. Divers can dive for minutes without breathing and still have enough oxygen in their blood. So under these assumptions i believe the CO2 shock may wake you up from temporary blackout.

Do you want to say that divers remain to be awake because of CO2? ))

The reason why inhaling a pure inert gas leads to unconsciousness so quickly (much faster than with simple breath holding) is that low partial pressure of oxygen in the lungs allows oxygen accumulated in blood to escape through the respiratory system.

The transformation deoxyhemoglobin + oxygen = oxyhemoglobin is reversible, and at any moment we have two concurrent processes happening in our lungs: deoxyhemoglobin is saturated with oxygen forming oxyhemoglobin and oxyhemoglobin is decomposed back into deoxyhemoglobin and oxygen.

When partial pressure of O2 in the lungs is high enough, the process of forming oxyhemoglobin prevails over decomposition, so our blood is saturated with oxygen and transfers it to the brain. When partial pressure of O2 in the lungs is very low, the process of decomposition prevails, so our lungs consume oxygen from the blood and dispose it through exhaling, that leads to rapid loss of oxygen in the bloodstream.

When a diver holds their breath, the partial pressure of O2 in their lungs along with isolation from the ambient atmosphere is sufficient to prevent flushing O2 out of the blood this way, and the only way the O2 level can substantially decrease in this case is by consuming it by the cells that needs much more time.

Although CO2 can contribute to dilation of cerebral blood vessels (which might potentially lead to waking up), its effect on vasodilation is very small when compared to hypoxia, that suggests that keeping O2 at low concentration should be the primary concern, not CO2. As long as the chosen bag is large enough and hyperventilation is done prior to the asphyxiation procedure for the purposes of reducing the initial level of CO2, it is unlikely that accumulation of O2 and CO2 inside the bag could lead to severe complications with the method.

I did experiments with breathing inside big plastic bags. Reaching a strong hypercapnic response always took minutes there. Meanwhile, the expected time before loss of consciousness when using an asphyxiant instead of air is just seconds. This means that by the time CO2 accumulates to the degree when it could matter under normal circumstances, you'd likely be in a deep coma already with a good setup (can't say that OP's technique is good though).

 

[NegevChina]

Assuming all the points you raised are correct, its still just theoretical and needs to be tested. There still remains the question of purity of the inert gas in the balloons, the difficulty of cutting two balloons inside the bag using scissors with your hands outside of the bag, and having scissors inside the bag after you black out and may have seizures may not only puncture the bag but also injure you.
So my suggestion to Sophie123 is that i would still not bet on this method to be reliable.
Any way if it does work fine Id like to consider it myself.

 

[littleraccoon3]

Yes you can get inert gases that usually around 99% pure.
Its the connection fittings, regulator etc...that gives some people issues.

I am working on a visual guide that uses US connections etc.
But need someone to edit and give information for EU connections etc.

You said you prepared a guide, I have an idea, maybe it will be useful to us. Let me tell you one thing, places that sell oxygen cylinders may have automatic valves and indicators. Since everyone is thinking about the hydrogen method these days, I did a lot of research and discovered that valves and gauges can be easily purchased from medical sales centers.

 

[Sophie123]

I don't see how breathing with air containing enough oxygen after a moderate carbon monoxide poisoning is related to this discussion.

Most people just don't dare to question whether the commonly known protocols involving constant gas flow are well-reasoned and whether there are good alternatives to them. I've read this forum for a long time already, and so far I've seen only a miserable percent of people considering alternative techniques of CTB through gas asphyxiation and no any reports of failure with such techniques.

Do you want to say that divers remain to be awake because of CO2? ))

The reason why inhaling a pure inert gas leads to unconsciousness so quickly (much faster than with simple breath holding) is that low partial pressure of oxygen in the lungs allows oxygen accumulated in blood to escape through the respiratory system.

The transformation deoxyhemoglobin + oxygen = oxyhemoglobin is reversible, and at any moment we have two concurrent processes happening in our lungs: deoxyhemoglobin is saturated with oxygen forming oxyhemoglobin and oxyhemoglobin is decomposed back into deoxyhemoglobin and oxygen.

When partial pressure of O2 in the lungs is high enough, the process of forming oxyhemoglobin prevails over decomposition, so our blood is saturated with oxygen and transfers it to the brain. When partial pressure of O2 in the lungs is very low, the process of decomposition prevails, so our lungs consume oxygen from the blood and dispose it through exhaling, that leads to rapid loss of oxygen in the bloodstream.

When a diver holds their breath, the partial pressure of O2 in their lungs along with isolation from the ambient atmosphere is sufficient to prevent flushing O2 out of the blood this way, and the only way the O2 level can substantially decrease in this case is by consuming it by the cells that needs much more time.

Although CO2 can contribute to dilation of cerebral blood vessels (which might potentially lead to waking up), its effect on vasodilation is very small when compared to hypoxia, that suggests that keeping O2 at low concentration should be the primary concern, not CO2. As long as the chosen bag is large enough and hyperventilation is done prior to the asphyxiation procedure for the purposes of reducing the initial level of CO2, it is unlikely that accumulation of O2 and CO2 inside the bag could lead to severe complications with the method.

I did experiments with breathing inside big plastic bags. Reaching a strong hypercapnic response always took minutes there. Meanwhile, the expected time before loss of consciousness when using an asphyxiant instead of air is just seconds. This means that by the time CO2 accumulates to the degree when it could matter under normal circumstances, you'd likely be in a deep coma already.

"I did experiments with breathing inside big plastic bags. Reaching a strong hypercapnic response always took minutes there. Meanwhile, the expected time before loss of consciousness when using an asphyxiant instead of air is just seconds. This means that by the time CO2 accumulates to the degree when it could matter under normal circumstances, you'd likely be in a deep coma already."

so do u think it could work? if done right?

 

[Intoxicated]

so do u think it could work? if done right?

Honestly, your protocol doesn't look serious. Not only it doesn't seem to be easy to execute correctly, it also implies that a lot of oxygen enters the bag with no good excuse for such a handicap. In your calculations, you overlooked that the volume of oxygen inside the lungs plus the volume of oxygen extracted by the lungs from the blood also contribute to the overall O2 concentration, so the resulting percent of O2 can become way more than 7%, that can lead to some complications.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

You said you prepared a guide, I have an idea, maybe it will be useful to us. Let me tell you one thing, places that sell oxygen cylinders may have automatic valves and indicators. Since everyone is thinking about the hydrogen method these days, I did a lot of research and discovered that valves and gauges can be easily purchased from medical sales centers.

You can buy an argon regulator online. But since argon isn't the same as nitrogen or helium there's been some discussion about setting up l/min.

Same can be said for your oxygen equipment. It's a different kind of gas.

 

[Tenebrion]

How can you puncture the helium balloons when they're inside a bag tied around your head?

 

[Sophie123]

How can you puncture the helium balloons when they're inside a bag tied around your head?

scissors lol

Honestly, your protocol doesn't look serious. Not only it doesn't seem to be easy to execute correctly, it also implies that a lot of oxygen enters the bag with no good excuse for such a handicap. In your calculations, you overlooked that the volume of oxygen inside the lungs plus the volume of oxygen extracted by the lungs from the blood also contribute to the overall O2 concentration, so the resulting percent of O2 can become way more than 7%, that can lead to some complications.

Ohhhhhh that is true, I didn't think about the O2 in lungs. I suppose you could....blow out air first? Like that thing where you blow out and try to scream but can't cuz there's not enough O2? And if you decrease bag size and increase balloon size conc should go up?

I have one more similair method that almost worked but it was painful .... this is like a variation.

 

[Intoxicated]

Prefilling a bag from a can/tank/cylinder and putting it over the head should be less prone to allowing big amounts of oxygen entering inside. If you want something cheap and not very unpleasant as the asphyxiant for CTB, I'd recommend to take a look at N2O cream chargers or cans with hydrofluorocarbons like R-134a.

 

[L'absent]

The helium method is extremely complex, risky and unreliable.

 

[Sophie123]

Prefilling a bag from a can/tank/cylinder and putting it over the head should be less prone to allowing big amounts of oxygen entering inside. If you want something cheap and not very unpleasant as the asphyxiant for CTB, I'd recommend to take a look at N2O cream chargers or cans with hydrofluorocarbons like R-134a.

N20 Cream Charger
woukd smth like this work? how would I use it?

 

[devils~advocate]

You said you prepared a guide, I have an idea, maybe it will be useful to us. Let me tell you one thing, places that sell oxygen cylinders may have automatic valves and indicators. Since everyone is thinking about the hydrogen method these days, I did a lot of research and discovered that valves and gauges can be easily purchased from medical sales centers.

Helium, Nitrogen...both use cga-580 connections (USA). So regulators etc made for other gases can be used with these...with some adjustment factors for flow etc.
My guide shows all the parts that can be used. Just need someone who knows about EU/UK connections.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

The helium method is extremely complex, risky and unreliable.

It's the preferred method of Boudewijn Chabot in his book 'Uitweg' (Dignified Dying) and it's actually quite simple and effective. He advised 2 balloon tanks without regulator. The regulator, for me, is the most difficult part in this method.

How is it risky? It's not like the house is going to explode when helium is leaking. As for unreliable: you can do a test run.

 

[Intoxicated]

woukd smth like this work? how would I use it?

N2O from chargers can be released into a cream dispenser and then from the dispenser into a plastic bag which can eventually be put over the head and sealed around the neck.

Unlike helium, nitrogen or argon, nitrous oxide is not only an asphyxiant but also an anesthetic which can turn off sensitivity in 1 - 2 minutes when inhaled in high concentrations, that makes any complications from hypercapnic response even more unlikely.