Discussion On concept of self, what it entails, what it could be part I

[CeaseExist]

'There is TWO of YOU'


Do you sometimes think in retrospection about your own actions, behaviors, feelings, reactions and feel as if they weren't "right"? They didn't feel right, didn't stick in that mosaic of self, actions that made you feel bad, resentful to yourself, sad maybe.


We can see in our daily life - of course only if we actually stop, observe and think - that many times people will do or say something they will regret or try to correct, something that will make them confused as to why. Why they did it, why they felt that way. Probably you can see it in yourself too, that one gaping chasm, separating you from truly knowing yourself, or maybe more fitting - acting according to yourself.


This is not the sole example of this, let's call it mechanic, as there are plethora of different aspects of life and ego, different perspectives in which we can observe this phenomenon, and it's not observable only in negative examples, there are positive ones too, but negativity is more apparent right?


In my time of introspection, meditation and thinking about the nature of self, reality, all sorts of parts that make out what we can observe and experience, as well as dreams - I've concluded that there is possibility that there are two consciousnesses in you. Well...at least in loosely used terms, as human language doesn't really account that much for abstract concepts, such as spirituality for example. The moment abstract concepts meet human way of transferring information, it becomes really problematic, it's enough to throw a wrench into a cog when you try to explain concepts that should contradict each other, yet they are 'logically' either in symbiosis, or existing at the same time, but I digress.


One thing I would like to analyze here, at least for now in this small snippet of my deranged rumbling, is how we almost "lose concept of self" when we are dreaming. You still are yourself right? You feel as self, but...do you still retain all of your earthly desires? Ambitions? Sadness? Love and hate? What happens to that self when we shut down to rest?


Logically speaking, it is normal that we don't feel about our reality as much when sleeping, because we don't consciously ride the wave of memory-lane, we don't use logical thinking and don't focus on our cognitive 'part' of being. But then, why do we still retain some core values? Feelings, even way of thinking, being. Floating away into the dreamland while losing most parts of our 'conscious' self, we still are something, something that doesn't connect as much to our bodies we reside in, something that is freely "moving", that isn't constricted by our experiences here on earth.


Another part of this equation, is what makes us, us. Regarding our experiences, that people always say "are shaping us" - taking it for granted, and guaranteed - our memories, feelings, situations we were in are shaping us, and that's why everyone is different and that's why we are who we are. Pretty simple right?


Then how do newborns, even non-human, function right off the bat, without actually laying there not doing anything? If our self was shaped purely by our experiences, and there was nothing else to it, newborn beings wouldn't even bugde. Sure we can explain that in a "genetics at play" way, our brains are built in such a way and all, yada yada yada. I'm not really going to argue on that, because that is not important, which is which and what came first isn't the point here.


What is the point, is that at the core of self, there is already something, something formed - but still forming. Something primal, that almost overrides everything else. Sure, you can get hurt in your life, learning new things, reactions, sensible train of thoughts and adaptations to reality we live in - that's the experience - but it's not the same as you being kind or harsh or being gloomy from the start, that's not what makes you, you.


Simply put, at least for now, we could divide our consciousness into two separate beings, sort of:
First one, let's call it reactionary consciousness - this is the one you acquire through life, memories, experiences, you know who your parents are, your colleagues, you know you have to wear pants etc. etc. this is the one that is the closest to the waking parts of our existence, this is the consciousness that is built on top of our second consciousness
Second one, let's call it existential consciousness - is the one that you basically "have from the start", your core, your being, something you were, are, and will be always. This is the one you default when you detach hard in your sleep, this is the one you feel when your reactionary one does something which doesn't seem right to you. this - is YOU.


Some food for thought, I'm not stating it as some fact of life, more like thing to think about, and maybe something to look through as a perspective on things, especially on self.
Whatever it means? It's up to you, really, there is no definitive answers "up there", so might as well delude oneself into something positive.​

 

[Forever Sleep]

I find it interesting to think about also. I also agree with this multiple consciouness state. I often find myself observing my own emotional state. I feel unhappy today (is the usual one.) Almost like being your own therapist really.

Years ago, I read 'The Power of Now' by Eckhart Tolle. He also spoke of these multiple selves yet- we are really just one self at the core. His argument seemed to be that this self was calm.

Dreams are particularly interesting. For some part- I agree- we are purely existing in the experience in the dream. However, I tend to find- especially in my more disturbing dreams- which are plentiful, there often is a kind of jolt where something awful is about to happen. Perhaps the fear of it slightly wakes me and I become at least partly conscious that it is a dream. Then, the dream sequence either tends to end, change narrative or, have a milder ending. I tend to find my dreams contain a lot of threat but it's rare that the danger materialises. So, while there's less critical thought and consciousness in my dream life, it seems to appear now and then.

It is interesting though- how we are able to think on these multiple levels. Become observers of ourselves.

I think I understand what you mean by babies already expressing character despite having so little life experience. I wonder if that is dictated by our genes though. We aren't all exactly the same at birth. We surely start out with predisposions for certain things. Plus, we will be learning from the second we arrive here. Some babies will find all their needs met without having to kick up a fuss. Some will need to scream a bit to get what they require. Some sadly can scream and scream and get ignored. Who's to say all those very initial experiences don't affect who we become?

It goes for other creatures too. Animals seem to have distinct personalities. The weirder thing I find is when family members, siblings etc. can turn out so different sometimes, despite likely having similar genes and being raised in a similar environment. I suppose even the smallest differences can impact us though.

 

[CeaseExist]

...However, I tend to find- especially in my more disturbing dreams- which are plentiful, there often is a kind of jolt where something awful is about to happen. Perhaps the fear of it slightly wakes me and I become at least partly conscious that it is a dream. Then, the dream sequence either tends to end, change narrative or, have a milder ending. I tend to find my dreams contain a lot of threat but it's rare that the danger materialises. So, while there's less critical thought and consciousness in my dream life, it seems to appear now and then...

I think there is something explaining pretty well what you experience while dreaming, because frankly, not the same, but the same in principle experience I have. I will try to write more about it, maybe here, maybe on another post, but in summary:

- Trauma, is very intense, deep, it can reach even to your core, which causes you to for example: feel fear, even when in dream state, fear of something you can later identify as towards something specific, or at least broad
- Especially in dream-states we are basically our thoughts. We create thoughts, thoughts create us, they shape our experiences there, and they have very powerful effect, and as you can guess, not only your conscious thoughts :) damn right, another cosmic joke, although this one is pretty solid and kind of logical when you THINK about it (think - thoughts, get it? HAHA) I can't find any way now to convey the idea more digestible, you will have to forgive me for now.

I think that's all, I will appear again, and most probably in the shape allowing me to divulge more on the topic, because I think you could gain some really nice insight if you haven't got to these parts already by yourself. Cheers!

 

[CeaseExist]

...Dreams...

Okay, as I've said before, now I want to keep my word and divulge on the matter some more

If I understood you correctly, you meant that even though you default into the neutral consciousness in dreamstate, there are some "jolts" of something known, something not neutral that in short causes you to have nightmares.

Later I stated that it could be most probable that the trauma could be causing that, having deep roots that can reach the core of your person and influence even your neutral state of being, as well as pointed out the power of thoughts, how much effectiveness they contain especially outside of physical world.

I didn't exactly explain my thoughts on the matter precisely, as when it comes to dreamstates they often vary in their intensity, how much you detach from your body actually, because you could be in fact still inside your body, being affected by your memories and feelings (as well as fears) from your mortal vessel as I would call it now. This could also explain those jolts you mentioned, but gotta remember that there is more reasons to it than one, you just have to feel yourself what seems more fitting.

So now with that out of the way, I wanted to say something about consciousness itself in my understanding:

There isn't much (or at all) empirical proof about works of our consciousness, as well as spirituality and other things metaphysical in nature. Many people don't really engage in these topics as if they were real, more like something to spice up their lives and think about it, food for thought if you will.

Now, for me, I can, and will, and want to state that consciousness isn't something as simple as brain processes, and it isn't something as simple as the concept of soul people have created, especially in religions. Consciousness in short terms is you basically, with it's own quirks, dynamics and all. It's not as simple as it residing in your body, on a physical layer, or plane as some would call it, it's like streaming service, your consciousness is "streamed" into the body you have control over, at least that's how it feels, because even when you are awake, you are still within the natural plane where consciousnesses reside. That could perhaps explain the unexplainable mood shifts, feelings of deja vu, clairvoyance in some cases?

Now when it comes to concept of self, and how I dissected it into 2 major consciousnesses we can divide, based on what they are responsible for, we can actually see a patter here. Yeah we are one, but we are fragmented. Each part of you, your feelings, emotions, thoughts, they are all independent inside of you (and if to believe some people you can even dissolve into nothingness when your incompatibility with self reaches boiling point. You would probably be "reborn" with a clean slate then, but who knows)

We can even observe it in real time here on our beloved (full of suffering) planet earth and our (not) very lovable brethren. Sometimes you can see people who truly are fragmented, they aren't really a full person with consistent behaviors, just a conglomerate of different concepts, ideas, feelings, you know. Pretty sad to see someone in this state, at least for me, no matter who they are or what they did, it's always tragic to see consciousness in such dire state.

Now, as we established overall common understanding of consciousness here (very shallow, but necessary for understanding the later part, sorry for not relaying these better) we can go onto the next part.

where is consciousness?

We've already talked about dreamstates and consciousness right? That could beg the question of what even is this place I'm talking about, the one "where we are" constantly. Well...who knows? The only thing I can tell you is that this "place" is ruled by thoughts, concepts, feelings. In it's most basic description it's true infinity, you can't really name it, you can't measure it or understand it the same as understanding math, physics, literature or anything that is definitive - meaning all the things you can experience here on earth, the definitive plane of existence, in short a defined place. earth = defined, Higher plane = undefined, that sort of mechanic.

Now, skipping all the other stuff like entities, energies and yada yada, we have reached a place where the real fun in analyzing yourself starts. Even when you just understand your own place in the universe by this model, just seeing your own self as all these fragments put together "up there" somewhere, it could make you more aware, mindful and overall more prone to changing yourself for the better. How? All the thoughts you have are parts of you, and you can actually affect them, integrate them, work through them, making whatever you want with them, although not without effort of actually being mindful and understanding them, where they come from what they are for and all the other big questions you can ask, and consciously probing them if they can be thrown out or integrated into yourself (I've never really thrown anything out of me, so I don't really know if it's possible, but that actually makes me wonder if I just don't remember what I've thrown out, hence don't remember throwing anything out...small paradox isn't it?)

That's the control over yourself part.

Now back to dreams, you enter dreamstate, you start dreaming, detaching yourself from your body etc. you are more on the side of "higher plane" rather than physical, defined one, you enter the kingdom of absurd, abstract and mind. Now, the thing with out consciousness is that the earlier called reactionary one can influence our existential one, since they are one in the same, but not the same you get the overall idea?

When that happens, which happens a lot actually, never found a way to stop that, you will most definitely be thrown around the overall realm of dreams, this "higher plane" because of that, because up there you don't really control your reactionary consciousness, and frankly I don't think we ever control that part of our consciousness, it's the product of this reality, an adaptation, or maybe more in line of "adapter" to experiencing defined reality.

And to now stating it as easy as I can - you experience lack of control nor neutral feeling of your default state, because that realm "up there" is ruled by thoughts, emotions etc. so when your waking self is "intruding" on you, you will feel turbulences, sort of.

Now from more intimate perspective, I've actually had a lot of nightmares when I was younger, it was pretty much inevitable, and they've influenced me greatly, to the point of not going to sleep and sitting all night on the PC. Only once I actually started working on myself, understanding all of this and most importantly myself, I've gotten to a point where even when I do get a "nightmare" it's not nightmare anymore, it turned more into "Ah yes, this part of my consciousness, how gracious, let us spectate"

Hope this gives you some more insight, some more thoughts, again, I'm not stating it as some fact of life, everyone can have different view on these things and it doesn't make theirs less true than mine or vice versa.

PS: Also, I don't want to fearmonger but regarding entities? Be cautious.​

 

[Forever Sleep]

Okay, as I've said before, now I want to keep my word and divulge on the matter some more

If I understood you correctly, you meant that even though you default into the neutral consciousness in dreamstate, there are some "jolts" of something known, something not neutral that in short causes you to have nightmares.

Later I stated that it could be most probable that the trauma could be causing that, having deep roots that can reach the core of your person and influence even your neutral state of being, as well as pointed out the power of thoughts, how much effectiveness they contain especially outside of physical world.

I didn't exactly explain my thoughts on the matter precisely, as when it comes to dreamstates they often vary in their intensity, how much you detach from your body actually, because you could be in fact still inside your body, being affected by your memories and feelings (as well as fears) from your mortal vessel as I would call it now. This could also explain those jolts you mentioned, but gotta remember that there is more reasons to it than one, you just have to feel yourself what seems more fitting.

So now with that out of the way, I wanted to say something about consciousness itself in my understanding:

There isn't much (or at all) empirical proof about works of our consciousness, as well as spirituality and other things metaphysical in nature. Many people don't really engage in these topics as if they were real, more like something to spice up their lives and think about it, food for thought if you will.

Now, for me, I can, and will, and want to state that consciousness isn't something as simple as brain processes, and it isn't something as simple as the concept of soul people have created, especially in religions. Consciousness in short terms is you basically, with it's own quirks, dynamics and all. It's not as simple as it residing in your body, on a physical layer, or plane as some would call it, it's like streaming service, your consciousness is "streamed" into the body you have control over, at least that's how it feels, because even when you are awake, you are still within the natural plane where consciousnesses reside. That could perhaps explain the unexplainable mood shifts, feelings of deja vu, clairvoyance in some cases?

Now when it comes to concept of self, and how I dissected it into 2 major consciousnesses we can divide, based on what they are responsible for, we can actually see a patter here. Yeah we are one, but we are fragmented. Each part of you, your feelings, emotions, thoughts, they are all independent inside of you (and if to believe some people you can even dissolve into nothingness when your incompatibility with self reaches boiling point. You would probably be "reborn" with a clean slate then, but who knows)

We can even observe it in real time here on our beloved (full of suffering) planet earth and our (not) very lovable brethren. Sometimes you can see people who truly are fragmented, they aren't really a full person with consistent behaviors, just a conglomerate of different concepts, ideas, feelings, you know. Pretty sad to see someone in this state, at least for me, no matter who they are or what they did, it's always tragic to see consciousness in such dire state.

Now, as we established overall common understanding of consciousness here (very shallow, but necessary for understanding the later part, sorry for not relaying these better) we can go onto the next part.

where is consciousness?

We've already talked about dreamstates and consciousness right? That could beg the question of what even is this place I'm talking about, the one "where we are" constantly. Well...who knows? The only thing I can tell you is that this "place" is ruled by thoughts, concepts, feelings. In it's most basic description it's true infinity, you can't really name it, you can't measure it or understand it the same as understanding math, physics, literature or anything that is definitive - meaning all the things you can experience here on earth, the definitive plane of existence, in short a defined place. earth = defined, Higher plane = undefined, that sort of mechanic.

Now, skipping all the other stuff like entities, energies and yada yada, we have reached a place where the real fun in analyzing yourself starts. Even when you just understand your own place in the universe by this model, just seeing your own self as all these fragments put together "up there" somewhere, it could make you more aware, mindful and overall more prone to changing yourself for the better. How? All the thoughts you have are parts of you, and you can actually affect them, integrate them, work through them, making whatever you want with them, although not without effort of actually being mindful and understanding them, where they come from what they are for and all the other big questions you can ask, and consciously probing them if they can be thrown out or integrated into yourself (I've never really thrown anything out of me, so I don't really know if it's possible, but that actually makes me wonder if I just don't remember what I've thrown out, hence don't remember throwing anything out...small paradox isn't it?)

That's the control over yourself part.

Now back to dreams, you enter dreamstate, you start dreaming, detaching yourself from your body etc. you are more on the side of "higher plane" rather than physical, defined one, you enter the kingdom of absurd, abstract and mind. Now, the thing with out consciousness is that the earlier called reactionary one can influence our existential one, since they are one in the same, but not the same you get the overall idea?

When that happens, which happens a lot actually, never found a way to stop that, you will most definitely be thrown around the overall realm of dreams, this "higher plane" because of that, because up there you don't really control your reactionary consciousness, and frankly I don't think we ever control that part of our consciousness, it's the product of this reality, an adaptation, or maybe more in line of "adapter" to experiencing defined reality.

And to now stating it as easy as I can - you experience lack of control nor neutral feeling of your default state, because that realm "up there" is ruled by thoughts, emotions etc. so when your waking self is "intruding" on you, you will feel turbulences, sort of.

Now from more intimate perspective, I've actually had a lot of nightmares when I was younger, it was pretty much inevitable, and they've influenced me greatly, to the point of not going to sleep and sitting all night on the PC. Only once I actually started working on myself, understanding all of this and most importantly myself, I've gotten to a point where even when I do get a "nightmare" it's not nightmare anymore, it turned more into "Ah yes, this part of my consciousness, how gracious, let us spectate"

Hope this gives you some more insight, some more thoughts, again, I'm not stating it as some fact of life, everyone can have different view on these things and it doesn't make theirs less true than mine or vice versa.

PS: Also, I don't want to fearmonger but regarding entities? Be cautious.​

I agree that our conscious thoughts and predominant emotions frequently set the tone for our dreams. However, in my experience, it's maybe the jolt of consciousness that tends to temper the dream/ nightmare. So, for example- I'll wake up having dreamt that dangerous people were trying to break into the house. Then, I'll fall back to sleep, occassionally back into the same dream but, I'll open the door and we'll chat. So, in some part- more on the lines of lucid dreaming I suppose. I feel like it's actually my conscious mind that usually stops my nightmares from becomming too horrific.

I'm just really undercided about consciousness, the soul etc. to be honest. My Nana was very spiritual, verging on clairvoyant. I've had the odd experience here and there which makes me question whether there is something more. Whether time is linear, whether predestiny is a thing. Whether we are able to tap into these things.

However, seeing as even people who devote their lives to these sorts of things, still haven't been able to demonstrate anything consistently- I imagine it would be global news if anyone had solid evidence. I tend to just feel like, the majority of our lives we live according to what we already know.

A lot of weird stuff happens which, as yet, we can't always explain. I'm more willing to have an open mind on those things though. Perhaps we are singular and non spiritual beings and whatever we've experienced, it's simply because our brains have evolved that way. In effect- our brains are quite capable of tricking us. Or, maybe we are tapping in to something deeper? Who really knows? It would be nice if someone did know for sure but, I wonder if it's something we ever can know or, at least prove.

Still, I wish you all the best with your own journey of discovery- as it were.

 

[LivingANDDying26]

Woahhh this is such a fascinating thread. Really vibes with my own thoughts & wondering. Very eloquently put and great to digest. I have thoughts but definitely more so just going to read for now. Jus wanted to say ty for all who contribute to this thread