On Death and Dying

[Gustav Hartmann]

Elysabeth Kubler-Ross identified in her psychological study "On Death and Dying" five stages of grief:

First Stage: Denial

Second Stage: Anger

Third Stage: Bargaining

Fourth Stage: Depression

Fifth Stage: Acceptance

The SS thread "Ways of making peace with dying" brought me to this study. If you reached stage five you made obviously your peace with dying. These five stages are in the first place applicable to people who are facing an inevitable imminent death by a terminal illness or an execution. I wonder if they are applicable for suicidal people too.

This led me to a German book were notes and diaries of four dying people were analysed:

Helmuth von Moltke, regime opponent executed 1945

William McDougalls, psychologist died by cancer 1938

Wolfgang Herrndorf, author deadly brain tumour, suicide 2013

Michael Kohlhaas, Novella by Heinrich von Kleist about a rebel executed 1540

One of this four people committed suicide, thought the death of Michel Kohlhaas could be considered as suicide by court following suicide by cop. Are these five stages of grief applicable for suicidal people or are there fundamental differences? Corresponds the last stage "acceptance" with the committed suicide? This would fit in something I read recently on SS, that depression doesn´t cause suicide, it only happens before. Are the reasons for most suicides as compelling as a terminal illness or an imminent execution?

What do you think?

 

[TheHolySword]

The five stages of grief are a widely misrepresented and misunderstood subject. You are correct that the model was created on the basis of observation of terminally ill patients. But they are not stages in the sense of a chronological order that culminates in the acceptance of their fate. Kubler-Ross's study determined the opposite. These stages are not a set order nor were they ever meant to be. Any subject could have experienced any of these stages at any point, including acceptance first. Not all patients expressed all stages either. There is no determined rhythm to how we grieve ourselves. They may apply to us and they may not, I guess the question is what does this information do? If suicidal people go through all the stages or none of the stages, how does this affect perception? How would this affect treatment? I don't think anything changes in the understanding of suicidal people with this model. Though it's an interesting concept, the model itself has a plethora of issues, the psychology of death and how we interact with it is not a hard science unfortunately.

 

[dontwakemeup]

Elysabeth Kubler-Ross identified in her psychological study "On Death and Dying" five stages of grief:

First Stage: Denial

Second Stage: Anger

Third Stage: Bargaining

Fourth Stage: Depression

Fifth Stage: Acceptance

The SS thread "Ways of making peace with dying" brought me to this study. If you reached stage five you made obviously your peace with dying. These five stages are in the first place applicable to people who are facing an inevitable imminent death by a terminal illness or an execution. I wonder if they are applicable for suicidal people too.

This led me to a German book were notes and diaries of four dying people were analysed:

Helmuth von Moltke, regime opponent executed 1945

William McDougalls, psychologist died by cancer 1938

Wolfgang Herrndorf, author deadly brain tumour, suicide 2013

Michael Kohlhaas, Novella by Heinrich von Kleist about a rebel executed 1540

One of this four people committed suicide, thought the death of Michel Kohlhaas could be considered as suicide by court following suicide by cop. Are these five stages of grief applicable for suicidal people or are there fundamental differences? Corresponds the last stage "acceptance" with the committed suicide? This would fit in something I read recently on SS, that depression doesn´t cause suicide, it only happens before. Are the reasons for most suicides as compelling as a terminal illness or an imminent execution?

What do you think?

So the stages of grief is not that simple. I personally experienced this before I had knowledge this existed. I spent 4 days in the hospital thinking I was dying. The stages are true but you can go through all the stages in a day, repeat, and it can continue. It's not like you pass a stage and never go back. Hopefully, before you die you are in the acceptance phase.

Suicide I think is different. Suicide is optional and you feel empowered and it's something you have accepted, you aren't bargaining, and most likely happy that you're ending this life. I dint think her philosophy would apply to suicidal people.

Once someone is faced with the reality of death and become powerless then I think her philosophy applies. I've personally been on both sides and that's how I see it.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

The five stages of grief are a widely misrepresented and misunderstood subject. You are correct that the model was created on the basis of observation of terminally ill patients. But they are not stages in the sense of a chronological order that culminates in the acceptance of their fate. Kubler-Ross's study determined the opposite. These stages are not a set order nor were they ever meant to be. Any subject could have experienced any of these stages at any point, including acceptance first. Not all patients expressed all stages either. There is no determined rhythm to how we grieve ourselves. They may apply to us and they may not, I guess the question is what does this information do? If suicidal people go through all the stages or none of the stages, how does this affect perception? How would this affect treatment? I don't think anything changes in the understanding of suicidal people with this model. Though it's an interesting concept, the model itself has a plethora of issues, the psychology of death and how we interact with it is not a hard science unfortunately.

My impression is, that there is a chronological order of these stages. Of course there has to be sufficient time to go through all of them and you may go through several times if there is to much time, due to an unexpected recovery or a postponed execution. From a wider point of view we are going permanently through these kind of stages. As we are mortal we are all terminal ill, but we are champions in suppressing, otherwise we could probably not live. Most of the time we are in the phase of denail, we are immortal every day expect for the last one.

What is the impact of these model on suicidal people? Many people here want to die but cannot due to a bunch of emotions summarised unter the term survival instinct. I know from my own experience that time and going through phases is quite a piont in this context. So it is only natural to look for everything that could help.