Pacifists have a very naive view on the Ukraine war

[noname223]

I think this thread won't become that long because barely anyone will read it anyway. The Ukraine war started one year ago. In my country there are many people who protest for peace. They demand that the government stops to give weapons to Ukraine. For me this is a fucking joke. It would prolong the war and just increase the suffering is their argument. I think it is evident what Russia would do to Ukrainians when we consider Bucha and all the other torture masscres. I think Putin would love to torture, behead, castrate the Ukrainian elites publicly if he could. And all the other war crimes he is responsible for.

The analogies I read of pacifists were a joke. "If two kids at school fight each other I would not give a weapon to anyone." Well what if one of them is a bully with a shotgun and the other is assaulted by him and wants to defend himself. That is cynical joke of them.

Wars can end by surrendering. Should the UK or the US have surrendered to the Nazis? Should an innocent country when it is assaulted not have the right of self-determination and a right to self-defence.

The war would end if one side came to the conclusion their goal could not be reached anymore. For Russia this would be the end to occupy Ukrainian territory. And for Ukraine this would be a complete military defeat. Well the Ukrainian government would get killed in that case. And seemingly they are so brave not to flee despite analysts predicted a loss within days.

Without weapon delivery Ukraine would have lost within weeks. It is the moral obligation of the West to help them in their act of self-defence. And I am very thankful for Biden and his administration. Without the US as an ally this would never be possible. Does the military industrial complex get rich because of it? Hell yeah. Though this does not corrupt Ukraine's right to determine about its own fate. Ask all the Ukrainians. They don't want to become a part of Russia. Most of them rightfully despise Russia now. Russia is becoming a pariah state like North Korea. Putin will be remembered as a megalomaniac fool who ruined the demographic and economical future of his country.

Lol. This thread has become longer than I thought. It surely is a topic that is touching me.

 

[draingang]

I agree. Thankfully here in Poland a solid 90% of society supports the Ukrainian war effort. A lot of people in the West do not understand the local socio-political climate of Eastern Europe and have never witnessed Russian imperialism and its consequences first-hand. They like to think that it's "not their war" but it is. It's not only a war fought for Ukrainian freedom but also about proving that imperialistic ideas belong to the past and they cannot exist in a modern Western society

 

[wr3ck3d]

While I understand your view of the situation, I don't really agree to it. You can find many reasons why Russia invaded Ukraine, you can find even more solution on how to end this war. The huge inflation that everyone in the west suffers from is partially at least from this war, as Russia (from what I hears, through Ukraine) spread the natural resources to the west. Whether the west doesn't want the resources because of the war, or that the west forced a lower price was a reason to start a war doesn't really matter.

Your analogy of the kids makes no sense. If one has a gun, another gun doesn't solve the situation, but in exchange encourages one of them to take action before the other does, resulting in just as many casualties.

Ukraine is not part of UE or NATO or anything to really help them in this war. The west doesn't have any reason to help, so why are they helping?
The media made sure to make the whole Russians look like the bad guys, but they are probably killed on the spot if they don't agree with their president. So Putin is the problem, just like Hitler was about 80 years ago.

Your second point is that wars don't end in surrender. While this is not up to you, the country can surrender when the resources for the war are gone, making the future grim on the people that still stand, therefore treaties are formed. Do you really prefer Ukraine to fight to the last man? And if you wonder why this war is not already over, that is a good question. Russians have a considerable army which would overpower Ukraine, they also have more resources to maintain the war, but so does the rest of the west, if any of them wanted this war finished I believe someone would have done it by now.

At this point Russia's economy is in ruins. Even if the war is gone Russia will have a hard time recovering. While Ukrainians are all over Europe, and not in Ukraine where the war is happening, so who is even fighting there anymore. And when the war is over do you expect all Ukrainians to return back to their country? I believe that at this point Ukraine is just a battlefield for Putin to argue with the west, and not Ukraine itself.

i rarely express my thoughts on political matters, simply because I don't know what Putin or any other President or political member think. But if you think the solution is just for the west to send guns to Ukrainian army, I think you're wrong.

 

[HerculePoirot]

"Si vis Pacem, para bellum" (Julius Caesar)

 

[noname223]

While I understand your view of the situation, I don't really agree to it. You can find many reasons why Russia invaded Ukraine, you can find even more solution on how to end this war. The huge inflation that everyone in the west suffers from is partially at least from this war, as Russia (from what I hears, through Ukraine) spread the natural resources to the west. Whether the west doesn't want the resources because of the war, or that the west forced a lower price was a reason to start a war doesn't really matter.

Your analogy of the kids makes no sense. If one has a gun, another gun doesn't solve the situation, but in exchange encourages one of them to take action before the other does, resulting in just as many casualties.

Ukraine is not part of UE or NATO or anything to really help them in this war. The west doesn't have any reason to help, so why are they helping?
The media made sure to make the whole Russians look like the bad guys, but they are probably killed on the spot if they don't agree with their president. So Putin is the problem, just like Hitler was about 80 years ago.

Your second point is that wars don't end in surrender. While this is not up to you, the country can surrender when the resources for the war are gone, making the future grim on the people that still stand, therefore treaties are formed. Do you really prefer Ukraine to fight to the last man? And if you wonder why this war is not already over, that is a good question. Russians have a considerable army which would overpower Ukraine, they also have more resources to maintain the war, but so does the rest of the west, if any of them wanted this war finished I believe someone would have done it by now.

At this point Russia's economy is in ruins. Even if the war is gone Russia will have a hard time recovering. While Ukrainians are all over Europe, and not in Ukraine where the war is happening, so who is even fighting there anymore. And when the war is over do you expect all Ukrainians to return back to their country? I believe that at this point Ukraine is just a battlefield for Putin to argue with the west, and not Ukraine itself.

i rarely express my thoughts on political matters, simply because I don't know what Putin or any other President or political member think. But if you think the solution is just for the west to send guns to Ukrainian army, I think you're wrong.

I appreciate a discussion about this topic. Though due to the fact you usually avoid statements on political matters I assume you probably won't answer.

Here some replies to your remarks. Just because the war increases the inflation in Western countries this is no argument against helping Ukraine in their effort of self-defence. The West also suffers but Ukraine and Russia in a different dimension. I think it is a moral obligation to help Ukraine. The economical aspects are not irrelevant but should not have the highest priority. Russia seemingly uses their resources to blackmail the West. Something many of our politicians were too naive to expect. In the longrun we also wanted to diversify our resources with more sustainable energy. There are many advantages of getting independent of Russian resources.

I think the analogy was probably not perfect. But your remarks just make way less sense. "The gun would encourage one of them to take action." Well Russia already attacks Ukraine. So the assault is already happening. And the victim who gets tormented is begging for help in self-defence. Due to the fact a whole country cannot be represented in one person the analogy has flaws I admit that.


Your criticism of the media is vague and leaves a lot of room of interpretation. Do you want to insinuate that Russia is vilified in an unfair manner? Personally I think the crimes against humanity for example in Bucha prove that Russia is clearly the bad actor in this story. The Ukraine is an independent country. It has the right of self-determination. I don't think the media would be killed by the president if they disagreed. Whatever this means. We just have to remind ourselves for example of the coverage on Afghanistan.

I think you got my argument wrong. Maybe because I am not a nativer speaker. I never made the argument "wars don't end in surrender". Wars clearly can end by one side who is surrendering. Though the price the people have to pay in such territory would be massacres like the ones we already had to witness in this war in occupied territory.

Personally I think we are not in the position to impose our will on Ukraine. I think it would be patronising to demand them to huge concessions. The Ukrainian sovereign and elected government does not want to surrender. From what I read the vast majority of Ukrainians do not want to give up their territory. I think it would be imperialistic to demand huge concessions. As if Russia and the West would have to negotiate without listening to the people who have lost many many people in their fight for sovereignity.

 

[wr3ck3d]

Politicians will not help because of morals, maybe this is why this war is still going. And I don't think Russia is blackmailing with it's own resources. Its their land and if they decide they don't want to sell it at a certain price then they shouldn't have to. They know they are not irreplaceable on the market, just the cheapest.

Your mention of Afghanistan reminds me how America is the great nation, while Russia has always been perceived as the enemy, movie spies and war games are the easiest examples. They did the same with Afghanistan. While America may not be directly involved in this war, they have great influence in media over they border, especially in Europe. My point was not to say that Russians are innocent, but rather say that some Russians are good and some are bad, just like in every other country and they shouldn't be all perceived as bad just because they have to do what Putin says. I have heard of some Russians getting shot for refusing to kill Ukrainians that's why I wrote all this

My analogy may have not been the best, but I don't think extra guns will help. I think they should either evacuate or actually get proper help. Just throwing guns and people to Russians is not gonna do much considering that Ukrainians are outnumbered.

I thought that by disliking people saying "wars can end by surrendering" so I thought you agree with the opposite, I apologize if I misread.

And personally I don't think this war is about Ukraine anymore, if ever was. I think it's Putin getting sick of western political stuff.

Edit: I'm not native in English either.

 

[SeenMoreThanEnough]

As someone who lives in Canada, I dislike the one-sided propaganda that is constantly shoved down our throats. Personally, and I know this won't be a popular take, I hope Ukraine loses this war. They come across as needy beggars to me, and I feel that their battle tactics are often cowardly and dishonourable. Russia is only taking back what has always been theirs. To the people who say 'If they take Ukraine, who is next'? I think that line of thinking is utter nonsense. Again, if you can look through the Western/NATO propaganda and follow the money, the truth will reveal itself. The real question is: How many billions/trillions of tax dollars is the West willing to put towards this? How much is each individual citizen prepared to pay? And for what? We should be taking care of our OWN, not indebting ourselves and our children's children for some proxy war. Enough is enough.

 

[noname223]

As someone who lives in Canada, I dislike the one-sided propaganda that is constantly shoved down our throats. Personally, and I know this won't be a popular take, I hope Ukraine loses this war. They come across as needy beggars to me, and I feel that their battle tactics are often cowardly and dishonourable. Russia is only taking back what has always been theirs. To the people who say 'If they take Ukraine, who is next'? I think that line of thinking is utter nonsense. Again, if you can look through the Western/NATO propaganda and follow the money, the truth will reveal itself. The real question is: How many billions/trillions of tax dollars is the West willing to put towards this? How much is each individual citizen prepared to pay? And for what? We should be taking care of our OWN, not indebting ourselves and our children's children for some proxy war. Enough is enough.

If you think the Western people are exposed only to propagands then you don't want to live in Russia. The media is way diverse here than in other countries. In Russia you can go to prison simply for calling this war a war. The sole fact you can state such an unpopular opinion in Canada without the fear of legal punishment shows that you enjoy way more freedom than the people in Russia.

Well if you had such an opinion in the 1933 then we all would now live in a Nazi empire. Germany also always claimed to simply take back what allegedly belonged to them. Gladly they decided to fight against the evil.