Discussion Pity the "Pro-Death"

[derpyderpins]

We all get annoyed with "pro-lifers," people who think suicide or euthanasia is bad in every situation no matter what and that no one should be able to choose ctb for themselves. Well, equally annoying - particularly from a recovery standpoint - is the increasing Pro-Death sentiment we encounter on this site: people who say life can never be good and death is always the answer, or at least generally dismiss the idea that other people can legitimately experience life differently than they do.

Negativity is to be expected on a website that is in favor of the right to peaceful suicide. A lot of people are hurting. But there is a difference between wanting ctb for yourself and insisting that ctb would be best for everyone. Example:

Reasonable negativity: "life is so hard. I've been unhappy and tried so much. I can't relate to people who are doing well. I'm very different from them. I want to ctb to relieve my suffering."

Pro-Death negativity: "life is objectively horrible. Being happy doesn't make sense. I don't enjoy anything, and no one could enjoy anything unless they're deluded. I want ctb, and people who don't want ctb are stupid sheeple."​

The generalized statements about people with jobs, people who are parents, people with disabilities, people with certain physical characteristics, people in different IQ categories, etc. are all indirectly aimed at others, intentionally or not. If you are trying to recover and see comments about your category, on a site where you're looking for support . . . it's a punch in the gut.

I want to be clear, this is not meant to disparage. I feel incredibly sad for those who embrace this way of thinking. You see, it resembles a cult. I have seen people who were down but not so far gone fall into this mindset and spiral from there.

In this post, I want to examine the ideology, explain how it comes about, discuss why it gets such a strong hold on people, and try to convince those in recovery to embrace pity over annoyance. I am also trying, as part of my effort to theorycraft recovery, to figure out what on earth can be done for people who embrace these beliefs, if anything. The motivation for the post is that some very pure-hearted people have been highly discouraged recently, and I want to offer an alternative view for them. This post does not aim to call anyone out or debate these views (although I'm always open to discussion, this is simply not the venue.) The post is aimed at people who are attempting recovery who get discouraged seeing this stuff, not people who believe this stuff (again, we can discuss separately if you'd like). As a disclaimer, I in no way mean to minimize anyone's pain. My belief is that anyone can live a fulfilling life or be unsatisfied with life and choose ctb for themselves regardless of situation.

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What do I mean by Pro-Death?

Pro-Death goes beyond wanting death for oneself. They don't necessarily wish death on others, but they think preferring death is always logical, and they think anyone who doesn't come to that conclusion is mistaken. And, most importantly, they seem to be bothered if you suggest there are good parts to life and that it's possible to be fulfilled while being rational. Of course, the group is not a monolith, but they probably believe at least some of these things:

• Antinatalism to the Extreme: one can be antinatalist with a nuanced view about risk and probabilities, and while I'd disagree with them it can be an interesting discussion. The Pro-Death version of antinatalism, however, concludes absolutely that there is no goodness in the world (or that any goodness is negated because "well if you never existed you wouldn't want the goodness."). They will try to logic out why the life you claim you enjoy actually sucks/is not worth living. And, btw, parents are evil for having kids (even though there are sweet, caring parents on this site).
• "I NEVER ASKED TO BE BORN!": This line has been uttered by many children and teenagers towards their parents throughout the past century, but the reality is that we were all born. That's the situation. The Pro-Death will argue "I never asked to be born" and conclude that they are owed support, as existence is involuntary. The stance is vital, as it is an excuse to believe that one can take without giving back; have no obligations; justify cruelty and selfishness; owe no explanation for extreme views; and so on.
• Work is slavery: This is a common thread that latches the people on this site to the darker, more vile parts of the incel world (which is more nuts than you can imagine if you dig through their resources for just a few minutes.) I have used the "wageslave" rhetoric before, as I am fairly antiwork and have a lot of issues with modern work standards and culture. When I call it wageslaving, though, I understand that I'm exaggerating, and it is not literal slavery. Pro-Death does not recognize the nuance: if you earned a degree and applied for a job and signed a contract that allows you to leave at any time, you are the exact same as a child taken from their home to be put in chains and raped repeatedly for the rest of their life - a "slave." It is absolute. (And you're dumb for going along with it.)
• Happy People are Sheeple: Closely related to above. Anyone who enjoys life, or is okay having a job, or enjoys being around other people, or similar, is a Normie, NPC, sheeple, brainwashed simpleton, etc. This allows for automatic dismissal of challenges to the views.
• Other Incel forum talk: eg., focus on looks and IQ and genetic superiority, focus on racial stuff, etc; Anything that can make some people feel like they never had a shot so they just give up. It's thinking a person can be defined with stats, like a character sheet in Dungeons and Dragons. It can strangely be simultaneously combined with a superiority complex - that one's stats are too good to relate to commoners. Extra points if smartness is defined as being exactly someone's own IQ or higher, making everyone below that dumb.

I could go on, but if you are a regular on this site you get what I'm talking about. Other commonalities are overuse of words such as "objectively," "rationally," "logically," and stuff about how we're biological machines rather than creatures with higher consciousness.

The overlap with incel talk says something important: this is an ideology of defeat. They have been defeated, have given up, and are looking to explain how the defeat was not their fault. (I personally do not believe the defeat was permanent. As the Positive Paul of the forum, I believe in them, but this is from their subconscious perspective.)

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An Unstable Foundation

A common occurrence these days:

A: "Life is bad and thinking life is good is stupid."

B: "But what about XYZ? I think there can be more nuance to the view."

A: "You only think that because brainwashed/irrational/ not objective, etc." (No addressing the arguments.)

C: "Wow, [A], I simply can't understand why there's any pushback on your based take that happy people are wrong to be happy."

B: "Well, see, I just told you. Here are some arguments . . . [XYZ, etc.]"
​

• Silence

I want to emphasize, again, that I'm not making fun of anyone. This doesn't mean if you've bought into Pro-Death you aren't smart. It's simply a position that's impossible to defend. If I enter a debate, and the other person is assigned the position that "it is impossible to add two numbers and have the results be an even number," and I point out "well, 1+1=2, which is even," I haven't really out-debated them, right?

It's pain avoidance. Make no mistake, the initial motivation is fear: fear of failure, rejection, etc. Arrogance is common, but deep down is self-hatred. They know it's all wrong, but their strategy of hiding from pain won't let them face it.

The arguments are built top-down, starting with the answer and justifying it later. It leads to a very shaky structure of beliefs. If any one of the legs are knocked out, the whole thing collapses. It's aiming to avoid all pain. First, retreat from fears by withdrawing from society. But, there are still bad feelings: guilt, self-doubt, loneliness, and more. The beliefs are meant to negate these. "I never asked to be born" eliminates the guilt of siphoning off people, because an unfathomably awful wrong was committed against those born into this world, mandating reparations.

To say being birthed is an absolute harm, life must be an absolute bad. If life could be good, it could be reasonable to give birth. This leads to the extreme antinatalist views: the worship of "non-existence." If we never lived, nothing would be bad or wrong, and pain is so overwhelming that non-existence is "objectively" superior.

Unfortunately, there is overwhelming evidence that lots of people think their life is something worthwhile. But for Pro-Death life must be objectively bad, so that birthing people is objectively bad, so that the world owes someone born for the cruelty of existence. So, happy people are dismissed, first, by converting those on the edge of despair:

State repeatedly that most of life is work, and the evil system takes most of the money, so life is a pointless lie, etc. In fact, workers are slaves. A slave's life can't be good, right? Work = modern day slavery with no nuance. It's very discouraging to hear, and even more of a mood killer once you start saying it to yourself. If you have to work, you are a slave, therefore your life is bad, therefore non-existence would be better, therefore you being born was a crime and you are owed support for life in reciprocation.

But some will still insist life is good, not believing all work is the same as slavery. It is unconvincing to say these people are wrong in their own evaluation of their happiness. The Pro-Death now need some other explanation: brainwashing, programming, the matrix, NPCs, etc. 'These people must be delusional and irrational, or not smart enough, falling victim to propaganda.' I'm repeating myself, but this is a necessity, because if a rational, unbrainwashed person can be evidence that life can be good, then non-existence is not objectively superior, so giving birth is not pure evil, and the excuse to avoid the ways of the world is gone.

The sad thing is the trade being made: in exchange for no responsibilities, guilt, heartbreak, pain, disappointment, etc., the Pro-Death are locked in. Life's joys are forbidden: love, fulfillment, purpose, friendship. . . if you have those, then life isn't all bad and you knock the whole belief system down.

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It's a Lie

Even more sad - and the point of this post - it's a lie. The Pro-Death say they feel no guilt, they aren't lonely, they don't want to do anything with their lives, etc., but they are clearly in great misery. They may not admit what the bad feelings are, but they're there. There's guilt, self-hatred, and loneliness. They push it down and down further and further, but it's there. It's pretty clear if you read between the lines. Even worse, they cover the deeper feelings with rage and hatred. Hatred is exhausting and fruitless. People need vulnerability, purpose, and support, but seeking any of them releases the buried feelings and collapses the belief structure.

It's a trap, leading one deeper and deeper into the pit. As you dehumanize people, you of course start to have arrogance, deserved or otherwise. But what is the source of the arrogance? The Pro-Death empty everything from their lives except the ideology, so the ideology is their identity, and it is what they think makes them superior. . . but the ideology goes hand-in-hand with misery. As put so eloquently in another thread (on a different topic, I'm not suggesting they endorse this post) by @Abandoned Character :

"The pitfalls of ego. A miserable person who identifies with their misery will be resistant to positive influences purely because listening would require a change of self-identity."

They can't escape the misery, and every day spent in the cesspit makes escape harder.

So, when they say something cruel, rather than taking it seriously, realize how it is coming from a place of immense pain. They'll never apologize to you, because it would be acknowledging that they may owe people something in some cases, and - again - the whole house of cards falls. But, I personally believe there's someone good still in there, and nothing they say will convince me otherwise. I'm sad for those trapped souls, wanting something better but imprisoned by the pain.

---

Normally, when I write a big post like this I do it all in one go, but this one has been drafted and revised five(!) times now. I wanted to find the right tone, avoid attacking anyone, and - believe it or not - keep it reasonable in length. This post is not aimed at the Pro-Death. I may antagonize sometimes because of rough feelings and my lack of self-control, but I actually do just want what's best for them. (I don't claim to know what that is, but when I say "what's best for them," I mean what puts their overall contentedness/happiness/stability as high as possible without harming others, even if that means a peaceful ctb.)

This post is being made because more than a handful of people have personally expressed to me frustration with seeing these views. It's fine to have your own opinions, but the problem is that these views inherently attack others, just like what got Funeral Cry temp banned. If I say anyone who has friends or a job or dreams or passions is a dumb Normie, or weak and brainwashed, or anything generalizing, I'm insulting a large group of people. This post is to attempt to explain to those who are being indirectly insulted or otherwise discouraged that they should take pity on these people. It's easy to posture through text, but the image I have of them betrays the confidence they attempt to project. Frankly, it breaks my heart a bit.

One failure of this post is that I did not come up with any way to help them. I actually even took some time to read about helping people escape cults, but as long as their echo chambers (this place, NEET sites, incel sites) are as equally accessible as anyone speaking reason I don't know of a way to help through a screen unless they can pass Step 1 and realize something is wrong. In fact, challenging them probably has the opposite effect and drives them deeper. Sorry about that. My hope is that not many subscribing to these views see this post, as I assume they don't frequent the recovery section.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Good reminder on how even if you don't have to be sympathetic, you can at least try to be understanding.

 

[GuessWhosBack]

Great post, I enjoyed reading it. More than once. I know it must have taken you quite some time to put this together. I agree (on most points) with your characterisation of the Pro-Death people.

If you're on your way to recovery and you see some light ahead, then I'd like to wish you all the best.

I maybe have encountered one or two people in this forum who fit this Pro-Death category well enough, but maybe I haven't been on here long enough. Granted, this is a suicide forum. And even then I don't know them well enough if at all, so maybe they don't. Or maybe even more do.

I would expect most users here to relate with some of your points, but I wouldn't consider them all Pro-Death. Well at least the ones I've interacted with. (I'm not insinuating that you were suggesting that)

Anyone suffering from untreated depression is probably going to closely gravitate towards the Pro-Death characterisation you've described. I think people in such a mindset, especially the incel types, do not even realise they're being hateful and harmful to others.

I'm not really sure what else to write, I'm just letting you know someone read all that.

 

[derpyderpins]

Great post, I enjoyed reading it. More than once. I know it must have taken you quite some time to put this together. I agree (on most points) with your characterisation of the Pro-Death people.

If you're on your way to recovery and you see some light ahead, then I'd like to wish you all the best.

I maybe have encountered one or two people in this forum who fit this Pro-Death category well enough, but maybe I haven't been on here long enough. Granted, this is a suicide forum. And even then I don't know them well enough if at all, so maybe they don't. Or maybe even more do.

I would expect most users here to relate with some of your points, but I wouldn't consider them all Pro-Death. Well at least the ones I've interacted with. (I'm not insinuating that you were suggesting that)

Anyone suffering from untreated depression is probably going to closely gravitate towards the Pro-Death characterisation you've described. I think people in such a mindset, especially the incel types, do not even realise they're being hateful and harmful to others.

I'm not really sure what else to write, I'm just letting you know someone read all that.

Thank you for the feedback and for taking the time! This one did take a while because I had to make it clear that this isn't about grouping anyone together, it's written for the people trying to recover who get discouraged seeing such things. I certainly agree that people can have a few of these views and not be "pro-death." Frankly, they can hold all of the views and I wouldn't mind, so long as they frame them personally rather than outwardly. For example, "no one should have kids," v. "I never want to have a kid." Or "I think work is miserable" v. "everyone who works is miserable and lying to themselves."

 

[Abandoned Character]

I wrote a whole response, but really, you've said everything that needs to be said. Your advice can be translated to any sense of cruelty, I think, As one of my teachers often said, hurt people hurt people. When you feel insulted, remember it is not about you. The insult comes from the pain of the sender, not the inadequecy of the reciever. I'm glad my note about ego proved useful for you. My own journey has been deeply influenced by that line of thought.

Pity is a useful term. Personally, I tend towards indifference. It is not my job to change the mind of another person, and pretending like it is my job would only create more suffering. The best we can do is hold space for these people, while also reminding them the importance of respecting those they disagree with. Something something, paradox of intolerance.

I did not know that FC got temp banned. The times that I did visit this site, I found her posts to be increasingly inflammatory, so it is validating to hear that the moderation team agreed in some way.

 

[permanently tired]

Is the way to help these people not what they're asking for? Give them the right to a quick, accessible death. That's what they want is it not? The one qualm I have with this, I never asked to be born and therefore are owed support is directed incorrectly. I'm assuming the support is resources to continue living, but not "carrying their own weight." This reasoning should be directed towards those who refuse to participate in society not pro death people. The only support pro death people are arguing is the right to a humane death. The nonconsensual birth argument is used to justify rtd by claiming they are owed the freedom to exit this life at anytime not support them indefinitely. Imo the logic for the right to die has sense. If you bring someone here by your choosing are they not allowed the right to leave at anytime once they become aware? A child is unable to make rational decisions so their parents chooses on their behalf, when the child reaches the age of majority they are free to leave the parent's household and are untethered to the parent's authority. Why does this not apply to life then? On the off chance this is perceived as hostile, I'm only asking for an edit. I consider myself pro choice not pro death.

 

[derpyderpins]

I wrote a whole response, but really, you've said everything that needs to be said. Your advice can be translated to any sense of cruelty, I think, As one of my teachers often said, hurt people hurt people. When you feel insulted, remember it is not about you. The insult comes from the pain of the sender, not the inadequecy of the reciever. I'm glad my note about ego proved useful for you. My own journey has been deeply influenced by that line of thought.

Pity is a useful term. Personally, I tend towards indifference. It is not my job to change the mind of another person, and pretending like it is my job would only create more suffering. The best we can do is hold space for these people, while also reminding them the importance of respecting those they disagree with. Something something, paradox of intolerance.

Indifference is probably healthier, but something about feeling a bit of sympathy - even for people doing bad things - helps me feel more connected to the world. But, I have learned that helping them/changing their mind is not my job, as much as I'd like to assist. Some people smack your hand away when you reach out and you shouldn't reach out again unless they initiate, for your own sake.

I did not know that FC got temp banned. The times that I did visit this site, I found her posts to be increasingly inflammatory, so it is validating to hear that the moderation team agreed in some way.

It was an elegant solution. She keeps those more repetitive/inflammatory posts to one thread. I think she now understands - at least a little - how her phrasing was inappropriate in cases.

Is the way to help these people not what they're asking for? Give them the right to a quick, accessible death. That's what they want is it not?

I'm certainly in favor of that. It's a long post, but somewhere in there I said I want what's best for them even if it is a peaceful CTB. But, I don't have the power to make that available to them, beyond supporting generally and letting my opinions be known. The situation is that it is not accessible, so when I say help I mean what may actually be in an individual's control.

The one qualm I have with this, I never asked to be born and therefore are owed support is directed incorrectly. I'm assuming the support is resources to continue living, but not "carrying their own weight." This reasoning should be directed towards those who refuse to participate in society not pro death people.

I see what you're saying and I don't disagree. The thing is the post is less about grouping people together and more about examining the hurtful behavior. In my observation the people I'm talking about largely have chosen not to participate in society. It seems like even people who really want death will have a more nuanced view when they interact with others regularly.

The only support pro death people are arguing is the right to a humane death. The nonconsensual birth argument is used to justify rtd by claiming they are owed the freedom to exit this life at anytime not support them indefinitely. Imo the logic for the right to die has sense.

Agreed that right to die makes sense. I'm a big supporter. When I say "pro-death," I'm specifically directing it at people who will make evaluations of others circumstances. So, "I hate my life and want to die" is not pro-death for this purpose. "Life is bad and it makes no sense for anyone to be happy" = pro death.

If you bring someone here by your choosing are they not allowed the right to leave at anytime once they become aware? A child is unable to make rational decisions so their parents chooses on their behalf, when the child reaches the age of majority they are free to leave the parent's household and are untethered to the parent's authority. Why does this not apply to life then? On the off chance this is perceived as hostile, I'm only asking for an edit. I consider myself pro choice not pro death.

You don't sound hostile at all! I appreciate the feedback and dialogue. I'm past the time limit for edits so I hope my follow-up comments here suffice to your satisfaction.

 

[permanently tired]

The thing is the post is less about grouping people together and more about examining the hurtful behavior. In my observation the people I'm talking about largely have chosen not to participate in society. It seems like even people who really want death will have a more nuanced view when they interact with others regularly.


Agreed that right to die makes sense. I'm a big supporter. When I say "pro-death," I'm specifically directing it at people who will make evaluations of others circumstances. So, "I hate my life and want to die" is not pro-death for this purpose. "Life is bad and it makes no sense for anyone to be happy" = pro death.


You don't sound hostile at all! I appreciate the feedback and dialogue. I'm past the time limit for edits so I hope my follow-up comments here suffice to your satisfaction.

Maybe I'm nitpicking and over-focusing on distinctions. I wonder if these people aren't fully pro death as we presume. It seems death takes a backseat for the opting out group which seems strange given the literal death sentiment. Is death not as appealing as comfort or is death in this scenario forced rather than sought?

I love a civil discussion. Thank you for replying

 

[derpyderpins]

Maybe I'm nitpicking and over-focusing on distinctions. I wonder if these people aren't fully pro death as we presume. It seems death takes a backseat for the opting out group which seems strange given the literal death sentiment. Is death not as appealing as comfort or is death in this scenario forced rather than sought?

I would tend to agree that deep down they don't believe what they are saying, but I tried to keep speculation to a minimum (as much as possible for a theory on human behavior, which I realize is a stretch). Some of them have unique barriers to methods, but others don't seem to prioritize the death they claim to want.

The thing is I really relate to these people. From 22-27ish I would've said a lot of this stuff and how life isn't good and how I didn't plan on living past 30. I was very close to suicide, spending nights drunk with legs over the roof or walking along the train tracks so late that it was morning. Some of these folks have shut their life down saying they'll just ctb, but they've never been close to an attempt, so they don't understand how hard survival instinct is to overcome. Could wind up wasting many years only to have to keep living, which is very sad.

 

[nembutal]

real
should be read by a certain popular user who has tarnished this websites image again and again

 

[Abandoned Character]

Why does this not apply to life then?

Your reasoning brings us to what I find to be a fascinating theoretical paradox. My theory is that as a society becomes more pro-choice, suicide would dramatically reduce. This is somewhat of a paradox because antagonists of pro-choice would argue that allowing for assisted suicide would increase suffering, as people would remove their chances of great and joyful lives; however, I believe a properly implemented assisted-suicide structure would significantly reduce suicides.

In the same way that sex education reduces unwanted children, suicide education would dramatically reduce unwanted lives.

A detail about this that I imagine many people here, possibly even yourself, would disagree with, is exactly what the assisted-suicide structure looks like. I do not think suicide pods should be available to the general public. This would be unwise because, whether you like it or not, your living is directly correlated to the wellfare of the people around you. What I advocate for is to have systems in place that we as a public can agree are capable of sifting through those who have not exhausted all their options.

Of course, a system like this would probably necessitate massive healthcare reform and something simular to universal basic income. It would probably require a revolution of sorts to cease the richest few from lining their pockets with the resources of the majority. Pro-choice reform--real, practical reform--is directly linked to these progressive ideas. And it all starts with having a little bit more compassion for our common person.

This is probably something that could be a thread in of itself, but I'll just leave this here because thats what I have the energy for.

should be read by a certain popular user who has tarnished this websites image again and again

Assuming you are referring to FC, I would disagree. I think we've reached a situation that we are satisfied with and I see no reason to pester this person of what they should or should not do going forward. I won't engage in this further, but felt is necessary to at least give my 2cents.

 

[permanently tired]

I would tend to agree that deep down they don't believe what they are saying, but I tried to keep speculation to a minimum (as much as possible for a theory on human behavior, which I realize is a stretch). Some of them have unique barriers to methods, but others don't seem to prioritize the death they claim to want.

The thing is I really relate to these people. From 22-27ish I would've said a lot of this stuff and how life isn't good and how I didn't plan on living past 30. I was very close to suicide, spending nights drunk with legs over the roof or walking along the train tracks so late that it was morning. Some of these folks have shut their life down saying they'll just ctb, but they've never been close to an attempt, so they don't understand how hard survival instinct is to overcome. Could wind up wasting many years only to have to keep living, which is very sad.

I wasted a few years like that. I'm unsure how much I've moved on from the period when I actively attempted. I like to think I've changed and become less volatile, but it's still difficult to control my anger at my family. The closest I ever got was staring over a 150 ft bridge into water during a cold night. This might be me coping, I was tempted it just wasn't high enough. Can I dm you?

 

[sugarb]

As nembutal said- real. very good post, you've said all that's to be said pretty much.

The pro-death crowd generally seem to suffer a lack of empathy, imo. Not to say they're unfeeling monsters- most if not all aren't- but they don't appear to understand other perspectives on life and death very well. A reflection of pro-lifers, sorta.

My own thought process is:

1. Overall, I don't like being alive.
2. My circumstances changing will not make me enjoy being alive, so even if my life materially improved somehow, I'd still want to CTB.
3. Death seems like a viable means of escape.
4. I don't have any other motivation to continue living (a larger purpose, etc) and I don't care enough about others' feelings to stick around for their sake.

Result: As I not only want but am also willing to commit suicide, I will move towards doing that.

And I can extrapolate that thought process to other people- if someone's views on life/death differ, statements 1-4 must differ. That difference does not make their resulting action wrong, because it's still a logical conclusion to them regarding their own existence. People who struggle on for loved ones, people who only live for pleasure, etc.

If their resulting action flew in the face of their version of those four statements (ex: a person who overall enjoys being alive, if circumstances were better would want to live more, doesn't want to die, and has a goal/purpose then committing suicide) then that would be illogical or "wrong"; they'd likely be acting on impulse, inebriated, highly emotional, or amidst some kind of mental crisis. Those are the people who need suicide prevention the most.

pro-life/pro-death types are simply dismiss that there are other conclusions or experiences and assume them ALL to be in the illogical crowd, which is incorrect.

Some of these folks have shut their life down saying they'll just ctb, but they've never been close to an attempt, so they don't understand how hard survival instinct is to overcome. Could wind up wasting many years only to have to keep living, which is very sad.

That's a fear of mine… I've never actually stared down the barrel of a gun before and as much as I'd like to be out of here I worry SI will override my logic. I'm hoping I can fool my brain into thinking "I'm just putting a metal pipe in my mouth, pulling a trigger, and then being free of all this" instead of "if I shoot myself in the head I will die gruesomely and blood and etc will fly everywhere" but I really won't know until I get there. I'm hoping to CTB within 1-2 years at max but there's really no telling. The thought of living to 25 or 30 is something I dread

reasons I didn't just refuse to enroll in college, if I can't CTB soon I don't want to be a total bum. I've sort of got a free ride and I'm pretty bored anyway so if nothing else it'll be a way to burn the hours without hurting anything

 

[Eternal Eyes]

Am I the only person who's now paranoid my posts are pro death and are upsetting/annoying people? I apologise if so.

 

[derpyderpins]

Can I dm you?

sure thing! Response times may vary but absolutely feel free.

Am I the only person who's now paranoid my posts are pro death and are upsetting/annoying people? I apologise if so.

If you're worried at all about other's feelings you probably aren't a problem. Just don't generalize and you're fine. Obviously we've all had some really really dark thoughts at times.

 

[Imagined_Euphoria]

I definetely agree that there are people here that can lead a happy life with the right circumstances.

Me personally though, no. I never really liked life much. I like some of the entertainment that modern technology provides and having thoughtful conversations, thats it. I'm incredibly stressed by any other, normal aspect of life. I don't want to work, I don't want relationships, I don't want to leave my house...and the more I think about it every day, the more I realize it has always been that way, even as a child.

When I wasn't forced by someone like parents or the school system to do something, I was almost never interested in doing anything that involves some sort of risk or possibility of failure. Thats what I really hate the most about life, and it has definetely to do with my asperger autism diagnosis. I can't stand that theres no defined outcomes for actions. I can do everything right and fail while others do everything wrong and succeed.

Thats why I never wanted to participate in this game beyond the bare minimum required.

 

[derpyderpins]

I definetely agree that there are people here that can lead a happy life with the right circumstances.

Me personally though, no. I never really liked life much. I like some of the entertainment that modern technology provides and having thoughtful conversations, thats it. I'm incredibly stressed by any other, normal aspect of life. I don't want to work, I don't want relationships, I don't want to leave my house...and the more I think about it every day, the more I realize it has always been that way, even as a child.

When I wasn't forced by someone like parents or the school system to do something, I was almost never interested in doing anything that involves some sort of risk or possibility of failure. Thats what I really hate the most about life, and it has definetely to do with my asperger autism diagnosis. I can't stand that theres no defined outcomes for actions. I can do everything right and fail while others do everything wrong and succeed.

Thats why I never wanted to participate in this game beyond the bare minimum required.

Super reasonable. I enjoy interacting with you. This is the good type of venting/negativity. Your personal experience is entirely valid.

I've recently found out I'm likely autistic to some extent and it helps explain a LOT about my mental health problems. It's crazy how differently people think! I've gotten lucky recently but focusing and holding a job have always been so hard. And most people don't tell you what they're thinking! I got canned at my last job and I just had no idea it was coming.

Life isn't fair. And think it's totally valid to point that out, but you're considerate enough to point out that happiness is possible. I don't think anyone could have a problem with that.

(Excuse rambling - whisky)

 

[Imagined_Euphoria]

Super reasonable. I enjoy interacting with you. This is the good type of venting/negativity. Your personal experience is entirely valid.

I've recently found out I'm likely autistic to some extent and it helps explain a LOT about my mental health problems. It's crazy how differently people think! I've gotten lucky recently but focusing and holding a job have always been so hard. And most people don't tell you what they're thinking! I got canned at my last job and I just had no idea it was coming.

Life isn't fair. And think it's totally valid to point that out, but you're considerate enough to point out that happiness is possible. I don't think anyone could have a problem with that.

(Excuse rambling - whisky)

Thanks. I like interacting with you too.

The "getting fired without warning" happened to me too. I worked many times, but only for a week or two each time. Thats when I get the "we are glad you were here and will contact you soon!"-speech with a big smile on their face and know that I will never hear from these people again, going so far as to having my phone number blocked one time lmao

 

[BlackEyedDog]

Once you say pro-death I switch off because no one should be pro-death. But we have to remember even though this is the recovery forum, people, including those posting in this thread, were brought here because they were suffering. If you have chosen recovery, more power to you and no one should enter such threads seeking to chip away at someone's recovery.

It also does not help to make threads contrasting recovery vs ctb,. while we are in this partition of the site, we have to accept there is another which allows for open discussion and includes discussions of methods for ctb. If people are venting about antinatalism, being neet, etc... then let them share their feelings and give them a space for a diaspora of struggling existences. A virtual home away from home however short or long amount of time that may be. At the same time recovery especially will have some overlap because people try and struggle with recovery, and suffering brought them to this site. It can be frustrating for anyone and maybe everyone involved at times.

There will be some 'bad apples' who don't behave according to a live and let live/choose but that would be the case anywhere. Those posters should be addressed by the community as well as the mods.

For many of us, medications ease the suffering and the forum can't provide us with those meds, that's something we need to do irl with a doctor. If you spend time in recovery you should understand that while it provides support, at some point the most meaningful recovery will require us to leave the site and make changes irl and that should be the eventual goal.

 

[ms_beaverhousen]

real
should be read by a certain popular user who has tarnished this websites image again and again

Yeah, Intolerable #1...
I presume.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I can't claim to be an expert on the way people think. I have read posts in the past by people defending our most promortalist members in which they refer to Autism/Aspergers as a possible cause. In terms of very black and white thinking. I'm not trying to label people here or take the mick out of them either. I'm just saying- it could be that they simply can't think any other way. Plus, I do understand what you're saying in terms of the impact these posts may have on a public forum.

But still- if this is the way these people truly see the world, how can you change that? Shouldn't they also be allowed to have a voice or, is it compulsory that we all need to try and see everything from everybodies point of view?

I do relate to you by the way. Although I have nothing against individual members here, some of their views are too extreme/triggering for me (as I'm sure I likely piss people off too- we're all only human) so- I tend to put them on 'ignore'. They don't want their views challenged it seems a lot of the time. They just want to be able to express them. Shouldn't they be allowed that? I'm not sure what the answer is really.

 

[Deleted member 8119]

I totally agree. I seriously suggest pinning this comment, so people can stop falling for that.

However, I don't pity them, except some people who literally can't feel pleasure, or have other conditions. the rest, they chose to put themselves in that ideology, it was completely up to them. You can tell them they're hurting themselves, but they'll do the same things. It's talking to a wall. So let's them enjoy their misery since it's what they want.

Life isn't good or even predominantly good, but at least I make the best out of a bad situation, and you should too. It surprises me they go such extremes. There's so much shit in life they could make their point without exaggerating anything, lol.

 

[derpyderpins]

It also does not help to make threads contrasting recovery vs ctb,. while we are in this partition of the site, we have to accept there is another which allows for open discussion and includes discussions of methods for ctb. If people are venting about antinatalism, being neet, etc... then let them share their feelings and give them a space for a diaspora of struggling existences. A virtual home away from home however short or long amount of time that may be.

But still- if this is the way these people truly see the world, how can you change that? Shouldn't they also be allowed to have a voice or, is it compulsory that we all need to try and see everything from everybodies point of view?

I do relate to you by the way. Although I have nothing against individual members here, some of their views are too extreme/triggering for me (as I'm sure I likely piss people off too- we're all only human) so- I tend to put them on 'ignore'. They don't want their views challenged it seems a lot of the time. They just want to be able to express them. Shouldn't they be allowed that? I'm not sure what the answer is really.

I'm all for venting frustration. If you don't want to work, don't want to live, don't enjoy life, don't enjoy relationships, I say go right ahead. But sharing feelings has limits. What if it's racism/sexism that someone is feeling and wants to express? Personally, I'd say they should be allowed to express it and have a dialogue, but I am also going to point out where they are wrong in my own thread. The people I'm talking about - in the same way - generalize groups of people: parents, those with jobs, those in relationships, etc. I'm not asking for anyone's posts to be removed for an opinion, but I think if you're going to say generalized things on a public forum you should be ready for someone else to respond.

I can't claim to be an expert on the way people think. I have read posts in the past by people defending our most promortalist members in which they refer to Autism/Aspergers as a possible cause. In terms of very black and white thinking. I'm not trying to label people here or take the mick out of them either. I'm just saying- it could be that they simply can't think any other way. Plus, I do understand what you're saying in terms of the impact these posts may have on a public forum.

The black and white thinking is very difficult to deal with. Trying to challenge it directly leads to irrational reactions. I do feel for those with autism/aspergers, probably because I now know I've likely been living with it my whole life - and hopefully can get a diagnosis soon. Of course, every case and severity is different, hence the spectrum. I like to think I'm fairly gentle and understanding rather than combative, but I hope someone will point it out if I address people inappropriately.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm all for venting frustration. If you don't want to work, don't want to live, don't enjoy life, don't enjoy relationships, I say go right ahead. But sharing feelings has limits. What if it's racism/sexism that someone is feeling and wants to express? Personally, I'd say they should be allowed to express it and have a dialogue, but I am also going to point out where they are wrong in my own thread. The people I'm talking about - in the same way - generalize groups of people: parents, those with jobs, those in relationships, etc. I'm not asking for anyone's posts to be removed for an opinion, but I think if you're going to say generalized things on a public forum you should be ready for someone else to respond.


The black and white thinking is very difficult to deal with. Trying to challenge it directly leads to irrational reactions. I do feel for those with autism/aspergers, probably because I now know I've likely been living with it my whole life - and hopefully can get a diagnosis soon. Of course, every case and severity is different, hence the spectrum. I like to think I'm fairly gentle and understanding rather than combative, but I hope someone will point it out if I address people inappropriately.

Definitely- I agree with you. That freedom of speech is important- so long as it isn't inciting hatred or violence. But yes- it also seems fair to challenge opinions on a public forum ina civil manner. Good even I think- otherwise, if everyone agreed, it would look like a death cult.

 

[BlackEyedDog]

I'm all for venting frustration. If you don't want to work, don't want to live, don't enjoy life, don't enjoy relationships, I say go right ahead. But sharing feelings has limits. What if it's racism/sexism that someone is feeling and wants to express? Personally, I'd say they should be allowed to express it and have a dialogue, but I am also going to point out where they are wrong in my own thread. The people I'm talking about - in the same way - generalize groups of people: parents, those with jobs, those in relationships, etc. I'm not asking for anyone's posts to be removed for an opinion, but I think if you're going to say generalized things on a public forum you should be ready for someone else to respond.

No one should accept racism/sexism, but these are not the same things as feelings of antinatalism or struggling as a neet. Natalism has been the societal default, and sexism and control over women's reproductive rights and their overall autonomy is a part of that. Just take the US for example where conservatives and many states want to make abortion completely illegal, even in cases of rape, incest. Even if the person is a child. Simultaneously these same people offer little support and actively try to remove social and govt support systems for those same affected people. So have that child no matter what and then good luck out there. Certainly helps to maintain a supply of low income jobs when people are desperate and in constant fear of their livelihood. McDonalds back in the day was meant to be a stepping stone, but that's not how it worked out is it? One can see the minimum wages by state here and it should make you livid. Wall Street separated from "Main street" some decades ago.

If you don't want to work, don't want to live, don't enjoy life, don't enjoy relationships, I say go right ahead.

I think there is frustration in what you wrote. You want to help people recover and it's wonderful but we need to remember that we mustn't confuse our circumstances with others when we are not walking in their shoes, even in the recovery forum. Many people are alone, many are in pain, many have difficult circumstances and there may be nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it. I wish I could just reach out and give so many people on here a hug. But if you spend time on this site then you spend it knowing and accepting this. It is possible that even you may need to just take a break from the site for a while and look after yourself. That would just be you loving yourself which is something we wish everyone on here could do. Do not risk your own recovery by emotionally exhausting yourself.

 

[derpyderpins]

No one should accept racism/sexism, but these are not the same things as feelings of antinatalism or struggling as a neet.

I get that, but the post is specifically about disparaging entire groups. This isn't a post about neets - although they seem to frequent the behavior I discuss - the post is about not letting people get to you and understanding that they're hurting. If someone is trying to do better and struggling with their job and they are trying to support themselves or a family it hurts to see stuff about anyone with a job being a cuck, slave, whatever and anyone who gave birth being evil. This post is directed at the people hurt by the rhetoric. I've cut down trying to talk to those speaking the rhetoric unless they reach out first.

I think there is frustration in what you wrote. You want to help people recover and it's wonderful but we need to remember that we mustn't confuse our circumstances with others when we are not walking in their shoes, even in the recovery forum. Many people are alone, many are in pain, many have difficult circumstances and there may be nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it.

I guess I don't follow because my overall point is that people lash out because of their own struggles so try to be understanding. Maybe if there's something specific I said that you think was an example of confusing my circumstances with someone else's?

I wish I could just reach out and give so many people on here a hug.

Me, too.

But if you spend time on this site then you spend it knowing and accepting this. It is possible that even you may need to just take a break from the site for a while and look after yourself. That would just be you loving yourself which is something we wish everyone on here could do. Do not risk your own recovery by emotionally exhausting yourself.

I will keep that advice in mind. Right now I'm feeling very good, so I'm making myself available if people want to vent and working on my theorizing of recovery. All this stuff helps me understand things more. I get comfort from typing out my thoughts in detail like this.

 

[untothedepths]

im probably annoyingly pro-death, though i only want it for myself that badly. i am highly critical of people having children "just because" (dont count unfortunate circumstances or a well planned choice) and society's evils. dont really see work inherently as slavery, just extremely concerned how things are going (lack of jobs, horrible pay, mistreatment of others, soaring cost of living...) i try to keep my negativity to my profile page, but now that you mentioned this, maybe its a good thing to not even keep it public, in retrospective.

sorry to anyone who was affected by that.

 

[NonameNobody]

I appreciate this post. It's very well-written and thought provoking. It mind not change minds of those who are deep into the "pro-death" mindset, but can be helpful for those who are getting close to it... Like me.

I find in my darkest moments I can start slipping into this negativity to the extreme. Especially resonant are the notions "I haven't asked to be born", and "work is slavery". I'm a NEET (or shall I say, a failure of a housewife... no children thankfully) and the guilt of being a useless burden is so so hard to bear. So these defense mechanisms kick in to protect from feelings of utter worthlessness...

But I can't just give up, it's wrong to act entitled just because life is so hard for me, I have to push through and try to improve, because I have people I care about. I don't want to act like an entitled jerk just because I didn't ask to be born. I'm here now, so I have to do what I can with the cards I was dealt.

So um... Thanks for the reality check Your words have helped me see the distorted thinking that can be very comforting, but ultimately is a dangerous path to take.

 

[pyx]

very good thread. i always wonder why those that consider themselves blackpilled inveigh against those who they consider bluepilled. for lack of a better term, delusion is an inherent part to sustaining happiness all around. if you can produce positive outcomes within that system as a bluepilled individual, then do defeatist ideologues really have a place to voice their critiques? what is rational in any case should not be determined by one current of thought, and should, in any case, not be determined by individual insights which those parties insist are obvious to the mind. our habits of reasoning are, in part, determined by many things which are external to the will

or maybe the distinction lies in the acceptance of redpilled thought as an alternative, though i think that engenders more or less the same territory, reducing people to biological automata. as an underlying premise, it's fine, so long as you don't take it to its most extreme conclusion.

 

[eden101]

i don't understand why people on this site find negativity of users to be so polarising. people want to die here, severely depressed or with other issues. or did you forget where you logged in? they will say negative, depressing things. it isn't fair to say "oh that brought me down, therefore this shouldn't be said" as long as it's not discriminatory against any group of people. just move on and don't pay attention, i don't like this constant dissection of what not to say on this forum. it's just for people to vent, find methods, etc. not a social media where a certain culture is cultivated and should be upkept, if you don't like something and it's not hurting anyone, just move on. people are hurting here, it's not a topic for an essay or judgement.