I recently watched two documentaries about this alleged female serial killer. I wonder what most people who have watched docs about her think. I have my own impressions but I will save them for later.
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ms_beaverhousen
-Still terminal, but no less annoyed-
- Mar 14, 2024
- 1,337
I think she had an absolute horrific childhood... but I don't think that was the extent of her decision-making in the murders. She did fit all the bio-psycho-social material of a serial killer though. Maybe one or two of those guys actually put her in danger (I don't recall the specific details of the cases anymore.), but mostly I think she tried to manipulate the other instances (murders) into being justifiable shootings. She flipped-flopped a lot on her own innocence which made it easier, and then harder, for us to be sympathetic towards her. I don't think either of the three voting options are true, but I chose the one closest. Also at one point (back when I had a working memory) I did know more than the average American about her case. Shame her gf didn't get jail time. That part was crap; Aileen loved her for whatever reason.
Btw you didn't vote lol ;) (Yet?)
Btw you didn't vote lol ;) (Yet?)
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I planned on witholding my vote so that I wouldn´t bias it but maybe I should just cast it now.
I think she flip-flopped because she was faced with her mortality and couldn´t bear waiting endlessly on death row. I am guessing she blurred the lines in some of the shootings but I definitely think she is not a cold-blooded murderer nor is she an evil psycho like a lot of serial killers. She was in a crazy environment that included crime and violence. She was in a high risk lifestyle that placed her in danger. She got tired of being abused and borderline raped so she started offing some of them. The first guy she killed was a rapist. There was another guy who fit the profile (older white male supposedly triggering her due to father issues) who picked her up as a hitch-hiker and drove with her for two weeks. She asked him if he was going to hurt her and of course he said no and didn´t...so she didn´t shoot him. She did not deserve the death penalty as an expression of society's judgement on her but she did deserve it as a merciful release from her misery.
Maybe I am biased because I can´t think of women as evil serial killers but it seems like they just sensationalized it for money. There are no doubt more involved conspiracy theories that might be interesting to look into about police corruption but I haven´t found much information about them yet.
Vote cast.
Yes, the part about her gf turning on her was very sad. And the gf probably pushed her to do it, being pleased that it resulted in more money for them.
(btw I added another option that is hopefully more in line with your opinion)
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ms_beaverhousen
-Still terminal, but no less annoyed-
- Mar 14, 2024
- 1,337
That mostly aligns with what I said. I don't consider her a cold-blooded killer, or just evil; but at the same time, she's definitely not innocent. She took advantage of more than a few of those men who were just giving her a ride (a few who were non-perves) because she wanted their wallets and cars. She realized she was on the run and had to keep that up financially and by being mobile. It's also like she later used her trauma to justify her actions, even to assuage her own guilt at times. I think she garnered herself the death penalty when she knowingly pulled the trigger knowing she was not in danger, more than twice. It's the perfect storm of wrong happenings. She's not a conventional killer, but female motives differ entirely than those of males. This was all super shocking at the time. (Still is.) Hell the police thought they were looking for a short man because the thought of a woman was like "No..." lol.
Do you mean capitalizing on it with the movie? I don't remember any talk of police corruption. Think you'd find the undercover tapings of the CI recordings to be interesting if you haven't already heard them.
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I have only watched the two movies by Nick Broomfield (a documentary filmmaker I have always liked but who I no longer consider to be entirely objective for reasons that cannot be addressed in this thread). I haven´t listened to recordings of confidential informants but unless I knew I was getting all of them to place in context with everything else I would be wary of drawing conclusions. I get the impression that a lot of CIs are manipulated abusively by the cops, let alone being sure that the recordings made available haven´t been cherry picked or otherwise tampered with. Are they publicly available on the internet?
I like your pfp btw :).
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ms_beaverhousen
-Still terminal, but no less annoyed-
- Mar 14, 2024
- 1,337
Were there always 3 options lol? I'm very tired so I must've missed that 4th option, so changed my vote.
I doubt I've seen those specific docs, but it's possible I've seen or read most (or all) of the material in them. The ones I watched (made mostly for different tv crime series) had some of the original police detectives and investigators etc. The informant (Who may have also been a cop? Can't remember.) when they were trying to get more intel (before they were officially able to arrest) on her spoke too. (He was a big biker guy and was afraid to be alone or go for a ride with her at one point because she might decide to shoot him.) He was trying to get her to speak about the murders.
The coverage I've seen didn't seem slanted. Mostly just shocked lol. It was fact-based; I don't like sensationalized opinion storyline shows. I'm sure the recordings (at least a few) are on YT. I think Crime Network has its own site. I expect they're available through more than just streaming.
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There were three options when you first voted and then I added the fourth one.
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ms_beaverhousen
-Still terminal, but no less annoyed-
- Mar 14, 2024
- 1,337
(I briefly saw what you meant by that film maker.)
A surface search of the undercover guy's name got me this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygq...QtwJ6BAgaEAE&usg=AOvVaw2Dm4x_B-RRRtG_AkU3Rz94
A surface search of the undercover guy's name got me this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygq...QtwJ6BAgaEAE&usg=AOvVaw2Dm4x_B-RRRtG_AkU3Rz94
Unfortunately this link didn´t work for me.
I feel like she was a victim to be honest. When I compare her to infamous male serial killers I do not see her fitting into the same category. She was so abused from childhood onward and all of her family seems to have been total garbage, especially in their behaviour with her even as a child. All she did was survive as a resourceful person in an evil world. Plus she was not a sadist, unlike most serial killers. I don´t know...I don´t see her as an evil monster. I know you are mostly agreeing but I just wanted to reiterate that I am not convinced she was even a bad person.
2messdup
Enlightened
- Feb 10, 2024
- 1,095
I need to refresh my memory about her because all I remember is that I felt very sorry for her despite the crimes. I think the book The Body Keeps the Score would explain a lot about her but I'm rereading that book and need to refresh my memory about her case. I will do that this week. Might be good for my understanding of the effects of trauma which I'm covering as part of my therapy atm.
Id be interested in the recordings. Are they easy to find?
ms_beaverhousen
-Still terminal, but no less annoyed-
- Mar 14, 2024
- 1,337
No this is really good. I agree with it all. Bad person? Maybe not a good person lol; there is a distinctive difference. I'm just going off of my impression from years ago. I covered it all then, but that doesn't mean I remember sh*t now lol. I just remember feeling really conflicted, but ultimately I'd have to say that she's responsible for her actions at the end of the day. At some point she was no longer the victim and the men became victims instead.
Don't know if you knew about her baby. Although I can't remember if she had an abortion, miscarried, or did an adoption. I remember some HORRIBLE things that happened to her, including by her own family, ESPECIALLY as a child; but I won't mention them here. It was brutual and vile smh. That's why I wondered if she ever really stood a chance at violence not being in her future. What with her genetics and emotional temperament, child and social development mixed with external factors. The gun was given to her preloaded so to speak.
Funny you should say 'survive' because earlier I deleted a line I had about how her shooting the men seemed to be a distorted and twisted way of her own survival. She's not a traditional serial killer. More like she happened to kill several men lol. She wasn't sadistic and didn't take pleasure in it. Didn't fantasize and set out to kill... so the actual movie that was made may have been called "Monster", but I don't think she was one. Just not an innocent person because she did do bad things with a sound (enough) mind. (Wish I had more details to spare.)
That book was mentioned on here somewhere. (Maybe it was you.) That definitely is high up on my bookmark list. (Assuming I'll ever be able to get to it.)
I think it might take a little effort to find them if they're out there and free. I don't know what's archived on the Law & Crime site or if Criminal Investigation even has a site. Maybe they have a YT. All that I watched came from network cable channels that online, you'd have to have a paid subscription. Netflix or wherever prob has crime series. Podcasts prob cover a gob of details. Prob transcripts of the recordings you can read online. I read stuff as well as watched. Happy hunting :|
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2messdup
Enlightened
- Feb 10, 2024
- 1,095
Thanks x. It may have been me that mentioned the book before. It's written by an expert on trauma and I saw it recommended by a counsellor and read it. But now it's been recommended by my CPN and the psychologist with the team to reread it to go with the very trauma based therapy I've just started. I would highly recommend it seeing as it was already in your list. I'm about to rewatch Monster right now as a start then I'll set chatgpt on the trail as a start
. Just knowing the CI tapes existed is really helpful. I tried to follow the link but YouTube is having none of it. Saying it's dangerous or something. I'll try copy and paste rather than trying to access via SaSu.Update: tried again using copy and paste onto ddg but still it's dangerous activity. I'll try again later.
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I only vaguely remember the documentary. I remember feeling sorry for her initially definitely. I definitely think maybe the first one or some killings were self defence. It seemed reasonable she was in fear of being raped, abused and murdered herself. I think as time went on though, I felt like the killings were more financially motivated because she felt desperate to maintain her relationship with her girlfriend. (Which I remember feeling really sad about. I think she did love her. I remember feeling sad that her girlfriend didn't really seem to reciprocate to the same extent.) That's only from vague recollection though. I definitely remember feeling bad for her but, just because you feel bad for someone, it can't exactly excuse them of murder.
I think the criteria for it being murder/ manslaughter/ self defence are pretty clear. You don't shoot someone in the head and torso without intending to kill them. The self defence plea can only apply when there is a genuine feeling that the victim may kill them first. I think that was present with some of them but, not all.
I'd say some of the killings were cold blooded though. I think the last ones if I remember rightly were effectively for cash and transport.
I don't really agree with the death penalty in general. I think our legal and court systems are too fallible. I don't know in principle really. Some killers, maybe. The Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Fred and Rosemary West, Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady's of this world to name some. Their crimes were so horrific, you do kind of think they warrant a very severe punishment. Maybe Wuornois' crimes don't match them. Still- serial murder is obviously serious. Plus, would she have stopped? If she hadn't been caught? Wouldn't she just have kept doing it to fund their life?
I think the criteria for it being murder/ manslaughter/ self defence are pretty clear. You don't shoot someone in the head and torso without intending to kill them. The self defence plea can only apply when there is a genuine feeling that the victim may kill them first. I think that was present with some of them but, not all.
I'd say some of the killings were cold blooded though. I think the last ones if I remember rightly were effectively for cash and transport.
I don't really agree with the death penalty in general. I think our legal and court systems are too fallible. I don't know in principle really. Some killers, maybe. The Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Fred and Rosemary West, Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady's of this world to name some. Their crimes were so horrific, you do kind of think they warrant a very severe punishment. Maybe Wuornois' crimes don't match them. Still- serial murder is obviously serious. Plus, would she have stopped? If she hadn't been caught? Wouldn't she just have kept doing it to fund their life?
2messdup
Enlightened
- Feb 10, 2024
- 1,095
I see she had severe BPD, CPTSD and ASD. As a fellow sufferer in the first two but much less severe and the stuff she she suffered in her life was far away worse then me, I'm still feeling sympathetic to her and wonder what would have been the outcome if her environment has been different,vif someone, just one person, had truly cared for her early on, and if she'd been taken out of that life and had good therapy. I'm not minimising what she did but at the moment I'm feeling so sorry for her.
Meh. Just another psycho murderer.
The sob stories don't count for shit. She chose to do what she did and paid as she deserved.
The sob stories don't count for shit. She chose to do what she did and paid as she deserved.
2messdup
Enlightened
- Feb 10, 2024
- 1,095
I started watching the documentary but had to stop because it was affecting me so much I got in a difficult place and took hours to come back to a semblance of being able to function. I really really hope what was shown of her early life is untrue but seeing her when she initially defended herself and then later wanted to die, I've got a horrible feeling at least some of it if not all of it was true and maybe there but for the grace of god........Im never going to watch any more and I won't be following this thread or any replies. It's not personal but I just can't face it and I think it's very harmful for me, just because of my particular circumstances. It's done now and she's dead.
2messdup
Enlightened
- Feb 10, 2024
- 1,095
Apologies first because by add I meant antisocial personality disorder, no autism and I don't know if she had official diagnoses. Can't look into it cos it freaked me out yesterday so leaving alone now
Pryras
Last hope
- Feb 11, 2020
- 622
She did nothing wrong. She targeted men who were seeking to rape her for money. I think all Johns are better off dead.
I guess you could argue that based on the type of prostitution she was doing it was implicit that she was doing it reluctantly out of desperation but I don´t think that makes them in itself worthy of a slaying. Some were sad cases themselves and I think that is why she only killed seven of them. Most of them probably didn´t make her feel murderous because they were just lonely and didn´t bear her any ill will.
Pryras
Last hope
- Feb 11, 2020
- 622
The difference is that I believe all prostitution is payed rape. Money acts as the silencer. You are going to have people who compare it to working a job which is just ridiculous. There are no "nice" or "respectable" Johns and she did nothing wrong by disposing of them.
nYes, I understood the difference between our two opinions. I just don´t know if I agree with you. Some of the people who might want to compare it to a working job are themselves prostitutes. That's not proof that it is a job like any other but it makes it hard for me to treat all exchanges of sexual favours for a material benefit as rape. I definitely disagree that no John's can ever be nice people or nice clients.
"Maybe one or two of those guys actually put her in danger"
She was in danger every single time she prostituted herself.
Lol. You are literally deranged.
I'm going to guess you're American, based on your hilariously Puritanical assumption that nobody could ever want to have sex for money and the fact that you can't spell 'paid'.
Nothing Left
🧿
- Sep 6, 2024
- 172
Pryras
Last hope
- Feb 11, 2020
- 622
Spotted the John. It's ok to admit you've used prostitutes before and it's okay to pretend they desired you at all bc you handed over cash. I'm sure you believe anything a woman tells you for $. If you refused to pay a prostitute you wouldn't call that robbery. You'd call that rape. Oh but let me guess working as a prostitute is the same as working in a coal mine or any other job right? That paying for dinner is the same as buying a woman right? Are you delusional enough to believe you can buy consent with a woman who wouldn't touch you with a 10ft pole?
I don't agree that suspending disbelief for a consensual transaction leads to not paying and equating it to robbery. Just because it isn't well regulated doesn't mean transactional relationships involving sex can only lead to rape.
