Discussion [Poll] To what extent do you think suicidality is a modern phenomenon?

[Alexei_Kirillov]

On the one hand, people since time immemorial have seen through the deception of life and sought death, and there's no shortage of evidence for that in old literature. Even in the Bible, the wisest person to ever live discovered that everything, including wisdom itself, is meaningless, saying "And I declared that the dead / who had already died / are happier than the living / who are still alive / But better than both / is the one who has never been born." (Ecclesiastes 4:2) This was written about 3000 years ago. So it's not like this is a new revelation. I personally get the sense that no matter what time period I lived in, I would've ended up suicidal.

On the other hand, rates of depression and suicidality do seem to be on the rise. There have been extreme advancements in technology in the past few centuries and our bodies haven't had nearly enough time to adapt to such lifestyles, so there seems to be a mismatch between our needs and our lives. The biggest area this can be seen in is social connections, which people have fewer of, and the connections they do have are less emotionally/physically intimate. Gen Z--and really anyone who grew up on screens--are doing particularly badly in this respect.

What do you guys think? Is your suicidality more due to modern circumstances or the facts of existence itself? What about more generally speaking?

 

[leavingthesoultrap]

I don't think it's a modern phenomenon at all.

 

[damyon]

I don't think it is a modern phenomenon.

Suicidality might seem like a modern phenomenon because people, in general, have become more aware of it due to the Internet.
Moreover, I think it is just being documented more nowadays. People in the past did not have time to deal with that and had to focus on other issues instead.

 

[Pluto]

It was not new in ancient Rome.

 

[sserafim]

I think that capitalism is a large contributor to suicide but there's been suicide even in ancient times. Back then, it was seen as something honorable, I think (at least in Japan). I think that suicide is on the rise due to the effects of living under late stage capitalism. We live in a dystopia. It's honestly a dystopic world that we live in. Work is modern day slavery; people spend the majority of their adult lives enslaved. On top of this, the cost/price of everything is increasing. Things are getting more expensive every year. It gets more and more expensive to *live*

 

[wCvML2]

Suicide is timeless afaik, rates go up and down but suicide is never completely obsolete

 

[derpyderpins]

I think that capitalism is a large contributor to suicide but there's been suicide even in ancient times. Back then, it was seen as something honorable, I think (at least in Japan). I think that suicide is on the rise due to the effects of living under late stage capitalism. We live in a dystopia. It's honestly a dystopic world that we live in. Work is modern day slavery; people spend the majority of their adult lives enslaved. On top of this, the cost/price of everything is increasing. Things are getting more expensive every year. It gets more and more expensive to *live*

It's an increasing problem thanks to our modern advances, which I guess you can blame on regular capitalism. It gave us the easiest lives in human history, with more time, conveniences, and resources to consider our existence than previously possible. Then our culture and values started disintegrating, and now "late stage capitalism" is pulling our quality of life back.

It think it's a perfect storm that way. Our lives are easy relative to human history, but not nearly as easy as we know they should be if it weren't for bloated corruption at the top. Combine that with religion being on the way out and decreased human connection for a multitude of reasons and, yeah, unfortunately I don't suicidality slowing down.

 

[sserafim]

It's an increasing problem thanks to our modern advances, which I guess you can blame on regular capitalism. It gave us the easiest lives in human history, with more time, conveniences, and resources to consider our existence than previously possible. Then our culture and values started disintegrating, and now "late stage capitalism" is pulling our quality of life back.

America never had any culture in the first place. It has no values, just greed and selfishness

It think it's a perfect storm that way. Our lives are easy relative to human history, but not nearly as easy as we know they should be if it weren't for bloated corruption at the top. Combine that with religion being on the way out and decreased human connection for a multitude of reasons and, yeah, unfortunately I don't suicidality slowing down.

Religion is the opium of the masses. It keeps people brainwashed and as sheep. Religion is a cult. It's a good thing that it's on the way out

 

[derpyderpins]

Religion is the opium of the masses. It keeps people brainwashed and as sheep. It's a good thing that religion is on the way out. Religion is honestly a cult

I don't disagree. I don't believe, myself, although I try. But, religion filled a hole we haven't found a consistent substitute for yet.

America never had any culture in the first place

Meh. I know you don't like America, but cowboys, the expansion of baseball, rock music, little pink house suberbs, california surfing, Andy Warhol and modern art, NYC - the city that never sleeps, southern fried chicken grits and collards, basically the entirety of rap, hip hop, soul, and funk . . . I could go on for an hour. America has had a ton of culture, if spread out and not uniform. This is what I was getting at in the other thread about making untrue absolute statements. It's okay to not like America, as it has earned criticisms, but America's biggest export for the last 100 years has been culture. American movies and music are more worldwide than any other land.

 

[sserafim]

I don't disagree. I don't believe, myself, although I try. But, religion filled a hole we haven't found a consistent substitute for yet.



Meh. I know you don't like America, but cowboys, the expansion of baseball, rock music, little pink house suberbs, california surfing, Andy Warhol and modern art, NYC - the city that never sleeps, southern fried chicken grits and collards, basically the entirety of rap, hip hop, soul, and funk . . . I could go on for an hour. America has had a ton of culture, if spread out and not uniform. This is what I was getting at in the other thread about making untrue absolute statements. It's okay to not like America, as it has earned criticisms, but America's biggest export for the last 100 years has been culture. American movies and music are more worldwide than any other land.

If religion is false (which it most probably is), then it means that people believed a lie. I'd rather take the truth and have a hole in my psyche/void in my soul than believe a lie. I'd rather take the cold, hard truth over false comfort. Ignorance is bliss

 

[derpyderpins]

If religion is false, then it means that you believed a lie

Again, I don't disagree, and I'm not selling Jesus. I'm saying it's important to understand the role religion played that made people more content when they believed so we can try and find a modern solution grounded in reality.

 

[sserafim]

Again, I don't disagree, and I'm not selling Jesus. I'm saying it's important to understand the role religion played that made people more content when they believed so we can try and find a modern solution grounded in reality.

People invented religion to explain what they couldn't at the time. They say that God made man in his image, but I believe that the inverse is true. People created God to explain inexplicable things and events. Now that science has advanced, we know and understand more about the world. There's no need for religion anymore (in my opinion). Religion is just blind faith and belief with no proof. There's no evidence that anything is true

 

[derpyderpins]

People invented religion to explain what they couldn't at the time. They say that God made people in his image, but I believe that the inverse is true. People created God to explain inexplicable things and events

I would say you're most likely right. That image of God made people care about something outside themselves, which made them less suicidal than when they are focused inward.

 

[sserafim]

Meh. I know you don't like America, but cowboys, the expansion of baseball, rock music, little pink house suberbs, california surfing, Andy Warhol and modern art, NYC - the city that never sleeps, southern fried chicken grits and collards, basically the entirety of rap, hip hop, soul, and funk . . . I could go on for an hour. America has had a ton of culture, if spread out and not uniform. This is what I was getting at in the other thread about making untrue absolute statements. It's okay to not like America, as it has earned criticisms, but America's biggest export for the last 100 years has been culture. American movies and music are more worldwide than any other land.

That can hardly be called culture lol. There's nothing refined or sophisticated about it. True culture is European high culture. It's classy and high-class. Simplicity is the utmost sophistication

I would say you're most likely right. That image of God made people care about something outside themselves, which made them less suicidal than when they are focused inward.

When you're focused inward, you're introspective, so I think it would be more beneficial for and to achieve self-actualisation. That's the highest on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

 

[derpyderpins]

That can hardly be called culture lol

. . . honest to god, then what is culture? If the creation of Punk Rock (the Ramones), all the Motown and soul music, Atlanta hip hop and R&B, everything I listed above, Disney World, Cajun cooking and everything about New Orleans, greek life at Universities, athletics, the empire state building, central park, phili cheesesteaks, essentially all cinematic history, and modern art aren't culture, then what is?

 

[sserafim]

. . . honest to god, then what is culture? If the creation of Punk Rock (the Ramones), all the Motown and soul music, Atlanta hip hop and R&B, everything I listed above, Disney World, Cajun cooking and everything about New Orleans, greek life at Universities, athletics, the empire state building, central park, phili cheesesteaks, essentially all cinematic history, and modern art aren't culture, then what is?

Low culture low class

 

[derpyderpins]

Low culture low class

That's not an answer. The question isn't "do you like American Culture." It's "does America have culture?" The answer is yes. You should be able to admit "America has more culture than most places over the past 150 years, but I personally don't like it and prefer other culture." I'm really trying to understand the resistance you have to seeing any grey in the world.

Low culture low class

There is 0 chance you're making nightcore music today if it weren't for the progression of music that was largely helped by America (giving England a ton of credit, too.) from Sam & Dave to Chuck Berry to the Beach Boys to Kool & the Gang to the Ramones to the Pixies to Nirvana and the Smashing Pumpkins, the expansion and experimentation of music goes through the heart of america.

Bob Dylan, Billy Joel, the Eagles, Eminem, Metalica, Lynyrd Fucking Skynyrd, Linkin Park, Aerosmith, Blink and Green Day, . . . It's just incredibly disingenuous to hand wave American culture.

 

[Jorms_McGander]

Suicidality is enshrined in several eastern religious practices so I'd say it's very ancient.

A more scholarly individual may even attempt to tie in ancient cannibalistic or sacrificial practices, but that would take a lot of work and I don't have the discipline or prerequisite education to make those points so it's just a feeling of some kind of cultural similarity or significance to the prevalence of such practices in human culture.

 

[thenamingofcats]

. . . honest to god, then what is culture? If the creation of Punk Rock (the Ramones), all the Motown and soul music, Atlanta hip hop and R&B, everything I listed above, Disney World, Cajun cooking and everything about New Orleans, greek life at Universities, athletics, the empire state building, central park, phili cheesesteaks, essentially all cinematic history, and modern art aren't culture, then what is?

Don't forget jazz, the most American music ever!

 

[JustBeingHere377]

Calling it a modern thing is extremely dumb once you realize that people used to commit suicide thousands of years ago lol. Maybe the reasons are different but suicidal people have always existed

 

[xinino]

I don't think it's a modern phenomenon at all.

Yeah, I also think cave men committed suicide.

 

[leavingthesoultrap]

Yeah, I also think cave men committed suicide.

They probably did. Can you imagine living with a broken bone that didn't heal properly and being a burden to your tribe without any health system we have in place?
It's the western sphere and Christian era that heavily demonized any tabooed suicide.
Suicide was recorded in Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome.
In Japan suicide was historically accepted and considered honourable in some cases.
Even Vikings sometimes performed it.
"Attestupa: The name supposedly denotes sites where ritual senicide took place during pagan Norse prehistoric times, whereby elderly people threw themselves, to their deaths. According to legend, this was done when old people were unable to support themselves or assist in a household."
Works of literature from the Victorian era describe many accounts of death by suicide. Usually drowning or throwing oneself off a cliff.
My own relative took her own life somewhere between 1950-1960.
Human suffering is not something modern.

 

[Meteora]

Don't understand really. Suicide always existed and always will.

 

[xinino]

They probably did. Can you imagine living with a broken bone that didn't heal properly and being a burden to your tribe without any health system we have in place?
It's the western sphere and Christian era that heavily demonized any tabooed suicide.
Suicide was recorded in Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome.
In Japan suicide was historically accepted and considered honourable in some cases.
Even Vikings sometimes performed it.
"Attestupa: The name supposedly denotes sites where ritual senicide took place during pagan Norse prehistoric times, whereby elderly people threw themselves, to their deaths. According to legend, this was done when old people were unable to support themselves or assist in a household."
Works of literature from the Victorian era describe many accounts of death by suicide. Usually drowning or throwing oneself off a cliff.
My own relative took her own life somewhere between 1950-1960.
Human suffering is not something modern.

Let's just stick to cave man, I don't consider Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome.Vikings and Victorians cave men, cave man didn't commit suicide but got killed by his tribe when he couldn't function because they were hunter gatherer and they had to travel constantly.

Cave men are the greatest humans who ever lived, they were free and didn't suffer from modern mental illnesses, they had better and healthier body than us that enabled them to survive their harsh environment, they never saw themselves as weak they faught because death encountered them everyday. They didn't have time to self-pity and suicide because death was around the corner.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I do think that modern technology makes it easier to be aware of other people's suicidality which in turn propagates the same feelings in our own minds but that doesn't mean it wasn't there at all in the past. It's like how autism diagnoses are only a thing from the past century or so. It's only because we got better at diagnosing and identifying it when in the past no one knew it was a thing.

 

[Zazacosta]

Meh. I know you don't like America, but cowboys, the expansion of baseball, rock music, little pink house suberbs, california surfing, Andy Warhol and modern art, NYC - the city that never sleeps, southern fried chicken grits and collards, basically the entirety of rap, hip hop, soul, and funk . . . I could go on for an hour. America has had a ton of culture, if spread out and not uniform. This is what I was getting at in the other thread about making untrue absolute statements. It's okay to not like America, as it has earned criticisms, but America's biggest export for the last 100 years has been culture. American movies and music are more worldwide than any other land.

You are right. However there are so many things which one would consider culture and another one would not.

But my opinion is also that America gave a lot of different cultures to world. But that is same for Europe and also for many other parts of the world.

That can hardly be called culture lol. There's nothing refined or sophisticated about it. True culture is European high culture. It's classy and high-class. Simplicity is the utmost sophistication

You idealize Europe too much.
You are right that there are "subcultures" in Europe which are definitelly "high-class", but there are also such cultures which are really weird.

I can speak of Eastern Europe a little bit... I live in Eastern Europe.

Polish Oczepiny (cutting hairs of bride durring wedding??) (Poland = country of conservative catholics, where they do not like LGBT+, abortions...).

7 Confusing Polish Customs

Every country has customs that shock and confuse foreigners. Polish people going about their daily business or celebrating special occasions often do things that will make your jaw drop, but are considered perfectly normal here.

culture.pl

Do you want to know something about several stupidies in Czech culture? (BTW Czech people = total alcohol drinkers).
The biggest shit - beating women as a tradition?



Croatia (very weird country...).

25 Strange Things Croatians Do (And Would NEVER Do)!

Contact us today to start planning your custom-made Croatia tour!

www.royalcroatiantours.com

Half of Eastern Europe call their countries that they drink a Vodka in the first place (what a culture, lol?).


Romania... country with many problems. The country which is a problem by itself.
This video does not need any other comments.


Shall I continue with more countries in Europe?
***********************

I believe that same thing can be said about America and also about Europe.
There are "cultures, traditions, customs" (It does not matter how do you call that) which are "high" and also those which are "low".

 

[sserafim]

You are right. However there are so many things which one would consider culture and another one would not.

But my opinion is also that America gave a lot of different cultures to world. But that is same for Europe and also for many other parts of the world.

You idealize Europe too much.
You are right that there are "subcultures" in Europe which are definitelly "high-class", but there are also such cultures which are really weird.

I can speak of Eastern Europe a little bit... I live in Eastern Europe.

Polish Oczepiny (cutting hairs of bride durring wedding??) (Poland = country of conservative catholics, where they do not like LGBT+, abortions...).

7 Confusing Polish Customs

Every country has customs that shock and confuse foreigners. Polish people going about their daily business or celebrating special occasions often do things that will make your jaw drop, but are considered perfectly normal here.

culture.pl

Do you want to know something about several stupidies in Czech culture? (BTW Czech people = total alcohol drinkers).
The biggest shit - beating women as a tradition?



Croatia (very weird country...).

25 Strange Things Croatians Do (And Would NEVER Do)!

Contact us today to start planning your custom-made Croatia tour!

www.royalcroatiantours.com

Half of Eastern Europe call their countries that they drink a Vodka in the first place (what a culture, lol?).


Romania... country with many problems. The country which is a problem by itself.
This video does not need any other comments.


Shall I continue with more countries in Europe?
***********************

I believe that same thing can be said about America and also about Europe.
There are "cultures, traditions, customs" (It does not matter how do you call that) which are "high" and also those which are "low".

I meant Europe as in Western Europe, duh

 

[Zazacosta]

I meant Europe as in Western Europe, duh

I believe that Western Europe has also some problematic areas... But I am not going to refer to those, I am not expert to Western Europe.
What I believe is that than can be found positives and negatives in each country/region.

 

[crystal_meth97]

I wouldn't say it's a modern phenomenon, not at all. Suicide has been around since forever and in some cultures it's more acceptable and less taboo. Those are rare cases anyway. Do I think living in this modern world contributes to the current suicide rates and fuels suicidal ideation? Of course! It can be very isolating to live in our times, with so much individualism and self-centeredness and lacking a sense of community IRL. There are many factors specific to the modern world that increase people's desire to commit suicide, especially if you're hyper-aware of what's going on on a global level with humanity and let these things affect your life and world view.

 

[derpyderpins]

You are right. However there are so many things which one would consider culture and another one would not.

I think culture is pretty well-defined. If I say "French culture includes a focus on art in many forms, found in museums as well as exquisite architecture, and the people tend to value tranquility - except when they're beheading leaders that stress them out too much - believing life should be enjoyed rather than wasted away working, the French people frequent cafes and eat baguettes and croque monsiuers along with a variety of what is regarded as excellent cuisine, also mimes and cigarettes and racism towards anyone who looks like they might be muslim outside of Paris" it is not a valid opinion to say "no, France doesn't have culture. It just doesn't. Doesn't exist." You could say "eh, but that's all shit imo" and I'd think you have bad taste, but at least it would be defensible. Saying it simply isn't culture is not something reasonable to say.