Venting Procreation will always be evil

[sserafim]

Procreation will always be evil to me. Because my parents procreated, I was forced into existence. I don't want any of the responsibilities, demands, or obligations that come with life. I hate that I have to do these things just because I exist. I never wanted any of this! Procreation is evil because you're creating a sentient being which cannot consent to being born. That being then has to go through the motions of existence and eventually become a wageslave to capitalism. The worst thing is that people have no choice in being born. I wish that we had a choice beforehand about whether we wanted to come into existence or not.

We only suffer because we exist. If we never existed, then we would never experience pain or suffering. The state of non-existence is ideal because it allows for the absence of pain. To live means to suffer.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

This is one of the many things that makes me question the existence of souls.
We are forced into existence without our consent, so therefore I seriously doubt that any " Soul " would ever consent to being trapped in a flesh - prison body, and forced to live in a world of suffering.
I honestly wish people would stop breeding and just let the human race go extinct because we are obviously a failed species and incapable of change. Yet even if we did change for the better, we would still be suffering in a multitude of ways.

 

[Rapière]

For the absence of pain to be a good, there needs to be one to experience it. You are, unawarely, longing for a state that requires a material existence, a "flesh prison", thereby, in some sense, affirming life and everything leading up to that experience.

 

[sserafim]

For the absence of pain to be a good, there needs to be one to experience it. You are, unawarely, longing for a state that requires a material existence, a "flesh prison", thereby, in some sense, affirming life and everything leading up to that experience.

I don't want a material existence. I want to break free from the mortal chains of existence.

Pain by default is bad though, no matter who experiences it. The absence of pain will always be good even if there is someone to experience it or not. Beings who don't exist can't experience pain or suffering. I long for a state of non-existence.

 

[FuneralCry]

It really is to me as well, I wish humans had the compassion to not create suffering by not forcing life here, I see procreation as such a horrible crime, as it's forcing life with the ability to suffer endlessly into this hellish and harmful reality.
The only rational solution is to not procreate as one cannot be harmed by the absence of everything, only never existing is the way to prevent all suffering.

 

[WeirdTheaterKid02]

This is one of the many things that makes me question the existence of souls.
We are forced into existence without our consent, so therefore I seriously doubt that any " Soul " would ever consent to being trapped in a flesh - prison body, and forced to live in a world of suffering.
I honestly wish people would stop breeding and just let the human race go extinct because we are obviously a failed species and incapable of change. Yet even if we did change for the better, we would still be suffering in a multitude of ways.

I understand what you're saying. But if you wouldn't mind I'd like to point out some things I've learned throughout a spiritual journey I've had.
We have no way of knowing that we did or did not consent to be here. Something that could potentially convince you otherwise is something called a « soul contract » which basically outlined what you will go through in life and your soul did want to experience this. To learn, at a soulful level, to become more part of the universe and its energy. If something like that interests you I'd highly suggest researching the concept of soul contracts

 

[Forever Sleep]

I understand what you're saying. But if you wouldn't mind I'd like to point out some things I've learned throughout a spiritual journey I've had.
We have no way of knowing that we did or did not consent to be here. Something that could potentially convince you otherwise is something called a « soul contract » which basically outlined what you will go through in life and your soul did want to experience this. To learn, at a soulful level, to become more part of the universe and its energy. If something like that interests you I'd highly suggest researching the concept of soul contracts

It's interesting but- to what end do you suppose we agree to do this? What's the goal? To understand all the permutations of what it is to live a human life? Why? I'm curious- do you believe all our souls are part of a greater being that is trying to understand and become something? The only thing I think it could be useful to understand all this stuff for is a creator- a God. It's not my personal belief I have to say but- I'm curious about what other people believe.

 

[achb]

I don't want a material existence. I want to break free from the mortal chains of existence.

Pain by default is bad though, no matter who experiences it. The absence of pain will always be good even if there is someone to experience it or not. Beings who don't exist can't experience pain or suffering. I long for a state of non-existence.

Pain isn't objectively bad or anything.

A lot of people value painful experiences as they "build" someone into the person they are. Or are a means to learn and grow. Or enable them to better understand happiness and pleasure that is the opposite of pain. Plenty are willing to go through it for a chance at something else (for example studying to get a good grade to become who they want to be.)

Thinking other people should never exist bc you wish you didn't is an odd stance. Procreation is an act that cannot be consented to. Declaring it evil bc of something that is impossible to achieve and ignoring the benefits that come from is is ridiculous.

Most people want to live. Most people are greatful they are here and want to prolong that.

Absence of pain is not the ultimate good.

 

[DarkRange55]

Personally I think its more useful generally to think in terms of dichotomies like harmony and disharmony or something. Let good and evil take a backseat once in a while, but thats just me. I would guess its basically a matter of psychology inherent in the structure of the sapient mind in general whether that's our minds or god's, if he exists. Like the concept of right and left or empty and full or whatever.
I kind of like "gradients" or "ecologies" more than dichotomies, but it depends on the issues of course!
Dichotomies are generally too simple for the complexities of our universe (even just one universe).
Gradients is often a good description when several things have simple interactions.
Ecologies is generally a good term when lots of things have complex interactions.

The evolutionary purpose in life as biological organisms on this planet is to reproduce and propionate the species. DNA is a program designed to amplify itself (including things fairly similar to what is in "itself"). It can also be argued that DNA is a program designed to preserve itself. And life when organized into species relies upon genes to be its memory system.

The purpose of gene-based life is to pass on genes. If we didn't die, the purpose would be to duplicate genes.
(Some lucky and skillful bacteria don't die for many, many, many generations. In a sense, the first life form is still alive now, since there is a continuous chain of life from it to all current life. In another sense, it has changed enough to no longer be considered the same life form, but where do you draw the line?).

 

[doneforlife]

It's interesting but- to what end do you suppose we agree to do this? What's the goal? To understand all the permutations of what it is to live a human life? Why? I'm curious- do you believe all our souls are part of a greater being that is trying to understand and become something? The only thing I think it could be useful to understand all this stuff for is a creator- a God. It's not my personal belief I have to say but- I'm curious about what other people believe.

I was discussing the same with a spiritual seeker in another platform. This is what I understood. So basically we all exist at soul level. And we are one with a greater consciousness. Imagine like we are a drop of a greater ocean. But when we desire to detach ourselves from the greater consciousness to experience an individual existence, like exist as a drop separately by not being a part of the ocean, that's when we are sent into this plane of existence. Because we desire to experience the materialistic sensations , which is only possible via having sense organs. Our body is like an interface to experience what we desire. But once we are here we get entangled because of our actions. Once we are free from this desire, we go back and merge with the greater consciousness which basically is called Enlightenment, Moksha , Nirvana etc. When we are here in materialistic body , we kind of forget our spiritual selves and strive for only materialistic possessions which makes it difficult for the soul to get Nirvana. Greed , desire, lust are nothing but chains binding us to this plane of existence. Also when someone commits suicide having a lot of desires , they get birthed again to have a chance of fulfilling those desires. I don't know how much of this is true , this made more sense to me rather than the "testing framework" , where it is said that we are sent to be tested and final result will be declared in some after life. My only concern with this theory is, I may not desire luxuries, but me desiring food is not because of me , it's because of the body and how it works, right ? Like if I didn't have a stomach, would I desire food? Yes , desiring more food after already having food which is a result of greed rather than biological instinct , is something we need to control.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I was discussing the same with a spiritual seeker in another platform. This is what I understood. So basically we all exist at soul level. And we are one with a greater consciousness. Imagine like we are a drop of a greater ocean. But when we desire to detach ourselves from the greater consciousness to experience an individual existence, like exist as a drop separately by not being a part of the ocean, that's when we are sent into this plane of existence. Because we desire to experience the materialistic sensations , which is only possible via having sense organs. Our body is like an interface to experience what we desire. But once we are here we get entangled because of our actions. Once we are free from this desire, we go back and merge with the greater consciousness which basically is called Enlightenment, Moksha , Nirvana etc. When we are here in materialistic body , we kind of forget our spiritual selves and strive for only materialistic possessions which makes it difficult for the soul to get Nirvana. Greed , desire, lust are nothing but chains binding us to this plane of existence. Also when someone commits suicide having a lot of desires , they get birthed again to have a chance of fulfilling those desires. I don't know how much of this is true , this made more sense to me rather than the "testing framework" , where it is said that we are sent to be tested and final result will be declared in some after life. My only concern with this theory is, I may not desire luxuries, but me desiring food is not because of me , it's because of the body and how it works, right ? Like if I didn't have a stomach, would I desire food? Yes , desiring more food after already having food which is a result of greed rather than biological instinct , is something we need to control.

It's an interesting idea. I guess I'm still left with the 'why' though. Why would a spiritual being need to experience life as a mortal? Plus, it kind of still suggests the smaller parts of this greater thing are still independent but again, to what end? What is this spiritual giant doing? Maybe that's too much of a human concept. Maybe it doesn't need to be doing anything. In which case- no wonder little elements of it decide to go off and do their own thing. They/we must be bored stiff! I don't know. It still feels like this thing would be doing this to aquire knowledge. To become greater than it is now. But then- being spiritual is surely purer and 'greater' than being mortal already? Like you say- we get so wrapped up in our vices down here. So- are we here to resist all that stuff? Orthodox religion quite often seems to demand that of us. A lot of vices- lust, gluttony, greed are labelled as sinful. Yet again- if we don't have all that as a larger spiritual whole- what's the point of being exposed to it here? I just can't make sense of it but maybe that's because I'm too focussed on an end goal. Maybe this spiritual thing just exists for no reason. Just came about like everything else. Maybe 'we' see this as a vacation coming here. In which case- the holiday brochures lied!

 

[doneforlife]

It's an interesting idea. I guess I'm still left with the 'why' though. Why would a spiritual being need to experience life as a mortal? Plus, it kind of still suggests the smaller parts of this greater thing are still independent but again, to what end? What is this spiritual giant doing? Maybe that's too much of a human concept. Maybe it doesn't need to be doing anything. In which case- no wonder little elements of it decide to go off and do their own thing. They/we must be bored stiff! I don't know. It still feels like this thing would be doing this to aquire knowledge. To become greater than it is now. But then- being spiritual is surely purer and 'greater' than being mortal already? Like you say- we get so wrapped up in our vices down here. So- are we here to resist all that stuff? Orthodox religion quite often seems to demand that of us. A lot of vices- lust, gluttony, greed are labelled as sinful. Yet again- if we don't have all that as a larger spiritual whole- what's the point of being exposed to it here? I just can't make sense of it but maybe that's because I'm too focussed on an end goal. Maybe this spiritual thing just exists for no reason. Just came about like everything else. Maybe 'we' see this as a vacation coming here. In which case- the holiday brochures lied!

No, we are not here to resist all this stuff. Resistance is not needed when one doesn't have desire. We are here to understand that this is all an illusion. It's like mirage. The ones who know.. don't run after it , the ones who run after it keep running..never being able to quench their thirst.

The spiritual being doesn't need to experience life as a mortal. They want to experience independent existence. Just like when we are living with our parents, we want to break free and make our own decisions. It's not the exact same thing..but I don't know how else to put it ...lol. It's just the desire to experience something different from your current form of existence. If that desire is not there , then , we remain in the spiritual domain.

It is not like spiritual is greater or purer. It's just that it is our most natural state. The way we were supposed to be. The way we were intended to be. Point to being exposed here is to curb our own curiosity and desire. That's why it is said , if you no longer desire anything, you are back to the spiritual realm.

What is this spiritual giant doing.. creating , managing and maintaining the software .

 

[Forever Sleep]

No, we are not here to resist all this stuff. Resistance is not needed when one doesn't have desire. We are here to understand that this is all an illusion. It's like mirage. The ones who know.. don't run after it , the ones who run after it keep running..never being able to quench their thirst.

The spiritual being doesn't need to experience life as a mortal. They want to experience independent existence. Just like when we are living with our parents, we want to break free and make our own decisions. It's not the exact same thing..but I don't know how else to put it ...lol. It's just the desire to experience something different from your current form of existence. If that desire is not there , then , we remain in the spiritual domain.

It is not like spiritual is greater or purer. It's just that it is our most natural state. The way we were supposed to be. The way we were intended to be. Point to being exposed here is to curb our own curiosity and desire. That's why it is said , if you no longer desire anything, you are back to the spiritual realm.

What is this spiritual giant doing.. creating , managing and maintaining the software .

It's really interesting. I wonder if there ever was or will be a time where all the individual bits of this greater whole had or will have no desire to be separate. In which case- what will it do then? Die in peace?

So- this spiritual giant is running the 'earth' programme? Does it desire all it's wayward rebelious individual elements back then? Is that the point? Teach us that it's shit to be mortal and to desire things? But then- why isn't it more shit for everyone then? If this being designed this earth- why give us pleasure at all? Plenty of people live their entire life reasonably content with mortal distractions and never seek out things like meditation. Plus, does this being materialise as animals too? They live pretty much entirely according to their needs and instincts. I expect a lot simply don't have the brain power to question it. It's an interesting idea but I guess I just don't get it.

 

[doneforlife]

It's really interesting. I wonder if there ever was or will be a time where all the individual bits of this greater whole had or will have no desire to be separate. In which case- what will it do then? Die in peace?

So- this spiritual giant is running the 'earth' programme? Does it desire all it's wayward rebelious individual elements back then? Is that the point? Teach us that it's shit to be mortal and to desire things? But then- why isn't it more shit for everyone then? If this being designed this earth- why give us pleasure at all? Plenty of people live their entire life reasonably content with mortal distractions and never seek out things like meditation. Plus, does this being materialise as animals too? They live pretty much entirely according to their needs and instincts. I expect a lot simply don't have the brain power to question it. It's an interesting idea but I guess I just don't get it.

That was pretty much the state before life originated in this realm , I guess. No there is no death. We all are eternal beings . A soul is outside the boundary of death. When everyone merges back , life as we know of ..in this plane of existence will come to a stand still. But that doesn't mean life will end. We will continue as souls.

The spiritual giant doesn't have any desire. Neither has it any desire to teach us , nor has it any desire to stop us from desiring or moving out to have an individual existence. For example, when I cut my hand , it bleeds. That's the outcome of my action of cutting. The bleeding is not being controlled by an external entity to teach me. However, it is upto me to learn not to cut myself as the outcome is bound to happen and that cant be stopped.

Why give us pleasure at all : I do have my doubts, as I don't understand pleasure in the context of spiritual realm as well.

Animals are also part of the same spiritual giant. However they have a lower level of consciousness and hence they have one purpose.. which is to rise to the next level of consciousness. It is only humans who are at the highest level and can breakfree from the shackles of birth and death. Hence it is said , one gets human birth after crores of rebirths via many species. And since it is the only form from where we can exit , one needs to free themselves from this illusion of desires.

I guess pleasures are given so that one can sustain through this realm. But it is important to understand that pleasures are not the be all and end all , they are not the end goal. Enlightenment is. Shedding all desires is the end goal.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I guess pleasures are given so that one can sustain through this realm. But it is important to understand that pleasures are not the be all and end all , they are not the end goal. Enlightenment is. Shedding all desires is the end goal.

But then- it is a kind of sadistic trap because we wouldn't have desire without pleasure or pain. We either crave pleasure or we desperately want pain to stop. It does seem like a testing ground. In fact- other religions do too. Basically- you're set up to have all these desires which you are then told to deny. Just all seems like a weird sadistic game to me. But there we go. If all that stuff is true- whichever version, it's not like we have much choice but to play along.

Personally- I think it's just as likely that all this stuff is manmade. Some clever person/people with an eye for community control saw that certain behaviours weren't good for the community- murder, theft, adultery- so- wrote them into religious law as well as criminal law. So that- if prison wasn't enough to frighten a would-be perpetraitor- maybe hell would be.

Plus- religious texts are often written by the wealthier members of society- they would be the ones who could read and write. Why isn't it just as plausible that they are telling the poorer masses that it's pious and good to be content with their little lot in life- to not seek for more because- that keeps them in their place while they get to enjoy their riches without being overthrown?

Further than that though- spiritual teachers today like Eckhart Tolle and Sadhguru examine human behaviour today. Look at what is making us so unhappy and advise us what to do to break that behaviour. Maybe there is something real behind it but- maybe not. Not to knock other people's beliefs- that's up to them. Personally, I think it's nice to be able to mix and match. Read and listen to teachings and work out for ourselves if they make sense to us and if they could bring us happiness/peace. I'm not convinced any of it is factual though.

 

[doneforlife]

But then- it is a kind of sadistic trap because we wouldn't have desire without pleasure or pain. We either crave pleasure or we desperately want pain to stop. It does seem like a testing ground. In fact- other religions do too. Basically- you're set up to have all these desires which you are then told to deny. Just all seems like a weird sadistic game to me. But there we go. If all that stuff is true- whichever version, it's not like we have much choice but to play along.

Personally- I think it's just as likely that all this stuff is manmade. Some clever person/people with an eye for community control saw that certain behaviours weren't good for the community- murder, theft, adultery- so- wrote them into religious law as well as criminal law. So that- if prison wasn't enough to frighten a would-be perpetraitor- maybe hell would be.

Plus- religious texts are often written by the wealthier members of society- they would be the ones who could read and write. Why isn't it just as plausible that they are telling the poorer masses that it's pious and good to be content with their little lot in life- to not seek for more because- that keeps them in their place while they get to enjoy their riches without being overthrown?

Further than that though- spiritual teachers today like Eckhart Tolle and Sadhguru examine human behaviour today. Look at what is making us so unhappy and advise us what to do to break that behaviour. Maybe there is something real behind it but- maybe not. Not to knock other people's beliefs- that's up to them. Personally, I think it's nice to be able to mix and match. Read and listen to teachings and work out for ourselves if they make sense to us and if they could bring us happiness/peace. I'm not convinced any of it is factual though.

Yes it is sadistic trap. Once we realise that, we would not want to be involved in the trap anymore. And to breakfree from the trap , we need to shed the desires. Infact you don't even have to shed the desires , once you realise the nothingness of it all , desire will eventually die. That is why monks don't go the standard way of marrying, acquiring, possessing , owning etc. They practice detachment. Once you reach a point where the desire itself is not generated from within, you are out of this sadistic place. A part of this theory resembles a lot with Buddhism. I guess it was not written by wealthy members of the society. Yes , at the end, all are man made . Great philosophers of their times might have written these which now have penetrated across generations to form what is called religion. At the end of it all , the sad part is , we will never know. In fact , more than these texts , I find comfort in David Benatar's ideologies. Better never to have been.

 

[DEATH IS FREEDOM]

Man should use breeding within his species. It should be illegal to procreate and pass on bad genetics and for parents to force their chronically ill children to die from old age. It should be forbidden for parents to force their chronically sick children, especially if they are over fifty years old, to live. Man has a free will and the right to decide over his own life and death. One should not have children if one do not want people to die. Birth is the cause of all suffering and death. Health problems and death can occur at any age. Parents have themselves to blame.

 

[Rouge4000]

Procreation will always be evil to me. Because my parents procreated, I was forced into existence. I don't want any of the responsibilities, demands, or obligations that come with life. I hate that I have to do these things just because I exist. I never wanted any of this! Procreation is evil because you're creating a sentient being which cannot consent to being born. That being then has to go through the motions of existence and eventually become a wageslave to capitalism. The worst thing is that people have no choice in being born. I wish that we had a choice beforehand about whether we wanted to come into existence or not.

We only suffer because we exist. If we never existed, then we would never experience pain or suffering. The state of non-existence is ideal because it allows for the absence of pain. To live means to suffer.

I disagree with this sentiment. Life for all its flaws and evil people that's walk this earth can be good can be great even. Bc you suffer does not mean others do to. When people say "not all men" it's common sense bc yeah no shit? The same logic applys here, you have taken your view of how shitty your life is and turned it into a nhilistic view on the world it self it is a posion to think in such a way. A simple counter argument to such a tunnel vision view is this. If we as entity's cannot consent to exist then what alternate do you encourage? A baby doesn't have the intelligence to say yes or no correctly? To understand the value of life and death so then what is ur solution? The death of all things? You say that you had no choice in living as did everyone else so your solution is to take the choice to live way from others? Before you respond to this really think about this and the flaws in your views and beliefs

Man should use breeding within his species. It should be illegal to procreate and pass on bad genetics and for parents to force their chronically ill children to die from old age. It should be forbidden for parents to force their chronically sick children, especially if they are over fifty years old, to live. Man has a free will and the right to decide over his own life and death. One should not have children if one do not want people to die. Birth is the cause of all suffering and death. Health problems and death can occur at any age. Parents have themselves to blame.

I agree with this. Allowing shitty genes to affect the gene pool is stupid. We allow people like Down syndrome to exist bc they are human to and yes they are.. but it shoukd be purged as such they shouldn't be allowed to contuine spreading it around. Why would someone with an illness want it to me passed on???? To give it to others? It's so dumb to me