Resource Proving prolifer hypocrisy through symmetry

[TAW122]

Introduction and purpose of this thread:
This thread might be confusing at first, and it may seem like a vent (while there is venting), but the main focus of this thread is to taking an example of a post on Reddit and then interchanging the terms, flipping the scenario/script, and using symmetry to prove prolifer's hypocrisy. Many of you on this forum already know that pro-lifers are hypocrites and perhaps this may be preaching to the choir, but the thread I found on Reddit shows how prolifers don't have any (valid) arguments other than just pure assertions (as well as a plethora of logical fallacies) for the mental health system as well as involuntary commitment. Normally, I would just show the thread and the interaction between the prolife psychiatric apologist and the victim (the person who was harmed by the mental health system), but in this thread I will show the original argument/interaction and then use symmetry along with flipping the scenario to show that if it were any other situation, prolifers would NOT tolerate an IOTA of the same treatment that they love to justify, stick up, and defend (psychiatry). Therefore, it would be proof of hypocrisy through symmetry.

With that said, here is the segment of the (original thread) in quote:

[–]Confident_Flow_795 21 points 3 months ago
I was 15 the first time I was "hospitalized". Stripping down and lifting my breasts/fat, exposing myself to a stranger was absolutely traumatizing. Suicidal people deserve a place to talk about their feelings without being threatened with shit like this. Having done it three times, IT DOES NOT HELP.

[–]AddisonmorganPsychiatric Councilor 2 points 3 months ago
I think you might misunderstand what a hospital is for. A hospital for mental health, just as a medical hospital is for emergencies. They keep you safe and treat the emergency but are not really intended for "curing" or treating you. That is why you need follow up care with a therapist. It did help because you're still here. That's the point.

[–]Jebbers199 14 points 3 months ago
How is treating someone like a criminal supposed to make them less suicidal?

[–]AddisonmorganPsychiatric Councilor -2 points 3 months ago
It may not make you much less suicidal but that's not the point. That might take years. The point is to keep you safe and keep others safe. These actions are more often than not impulsive and guided by temporary emotions that feel permanent which lead to making permanent decisions. The point of going into a hospital is to stabilize and let those feelings pass (and hopefully learn a few coping mechanisms along the way). Treatment should be done in therapy, not necessarily at a hospital. You wouldn't go to the emergency room for chronic pain, you'd work with your doctor. You'd go to the hospital with emergent and life threatening pain.
Measures taken to keep a patients and staff safe are not "treating you like a criminal". They are measures brought about either by law or by prior incidents.
You aren't under arrest and you likely don't have charges pending while in these facilities (some do have charges which is why I say "likely").

[–]giraffeperv 8 points 3 months ago
I mean, justify it all you want. I've been in this position & a visit to the hospital traumatized me to the point where I would rather die than be humiliated like that again.
And it is being treated like a criminal. I've literally been arrested before and was not violated to the degree as when I went to the hospital for suicidal thoughts.

[–]MoonFox1288 -2 points 3 months ago
And yet, you are still here. So the hospitalization actually did what it was meant to do. Albeit not without its costs to your peace of mind. I hope one day that process isn't so traumatizing.

[–]AddisonmorganPsychiatric Councilor -3 points 3 months ago
I think some hospitals don't do a very good job at explaining why certain things are done. If you could elaborate maybe I could shed some light.

[–]Confident_Flow_795 3 points 3 months ago
17 years later... I'm still suicidal. I can't get decent follow up treatment because when I try to talk about my suicidal ideation, I get threatened with being put in the hospital again. I've NEVER attempted suicide or hurt anyone else. I just need to talk to someone without the fear of additional trauma and thousands of dollars in bills. It's terrifying. While in the hospital they don't want us to talk about it either. Just take drugs and come to useless fucking groups. I feel worse and even more hopeless afterward.

[–]AddisonmorganPsychiatric Councilor 0 points 3 months ago
Most employees of hospitals are not therapists so it is unethical for them to act as therapists. This risks further damage. It is not the fault of the hospital that you still have these feelings or are not finding effective therapy. It sounds like you need to try something new if what you're doing is not working for you.
Expressing SI is not necessarily enough to be placed in a hospital. It crosses that boundary when there is intent or reason to believe that an individual will do harm to themselves or others.
Groups are what you take from them. They aren't going to help everyone and not everyone is very receptive to what is being talked about, and that's okay. A secondary reason to have groups is to avoid stagnation and isolation. They are giving you something to focus on rather than turning on a TV and letting you sit there your whole stay and learn nothing.
These treatments aren't magic. You do have to want to get better in order to get better.

[–]Confident_Flow_795 2 points 3 months ago
Read your message again and take a good look at how condescending you are. We're not stupid. We've been through this before. We know who we're supposed to talk to and who we're not supposed to talk to.
I have been TRYING TO GET BETTER for 20 fucking years.
I've never had a plan. I have never hurt anyone else and haven't hurt myself in years. I have been hospitalized 3 times (most recently this summer) and every time is worse than the last. More isolating, traumatizing, and expensive. I have seen dozens of therapists and psychiatrists and counselors and social workers. I have been put on countless drugs. I have tried meditation, massage, plant medicine, energy work. PLEASE tell me again that I'm not trying hard enough.
Every single mental health "professional" I have tried to open up to about this pain and despair threatens me with hospitalization. So, I can't talk to a therapist AND I can't talk to someone in the hospital they'll force me into if I try? How the fuck do you people expect us to process anything without basic fucking SAFETY?

[–]AddisonmorganPsychiatric Councilor 0 points 3 months ago
I am not saying you aren't trying hard. Some people are more treatment resistant so need to keep tweaking treatment methods. You might even look into something like ECT which is used in cases like this.
I understand that you're frustrated but hospitals are not a cure and I think your anger is not well placed in this circumstance.
The purpose of hospitalization is safety, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you are upset with a lack of safety.
Obviously I don't know your circumstances, and I can't speak to what your therapists have said because I wasn't there so in the general sense I can only say that as frustrating as it is and maybe it feels like a violation of your trust, therapists are mandated reporters. However you're not likely to be put on a mental health hold without reason to believe you are a danger to yourself or others. Perhaps you didn't see it that way but that doesn't mean you appeared to be stable at that moment.
Expressing that you have had these thoughts in the past or that you SH is not enough for a hold.

[–]Confident_Flow_795 1 point 3 months ago
I KNOW HOSPITALS AREN'T A CURE. HOSPITALS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. HOSPITALS ARE WHY THOUSANDS OF US CAN'T GET THE HELP WE NEED.
If I can't talk about my suicidality with a therapist or they send me to a hospital and nobody in the hospital is qualified to talk to me or allow me to process it, nothing ever changes. DON'T YOU FUCKING GET IT!?!?!?!?
I've tried telling my doctors I think my diagnosis is wrong because nothing works and my symptoms don't fit and they tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and tell me to try another drug. They told me I have a mood disorder but ECT isn't right for me. Nobody listens.
You're not listening either. People like you are why we don't want to fucking try.
Condescending assholes who treat us like idiotic problem children because we're in pain. We need support. We need to talk. We don't "stabilize" by being pumped full of drugs and cut off from our lives for days/weeks. You go in with a life-threatening gunshot wound and they'll stop the bleeding, remove the bullet, stitch you up, and tell you what to do do to follow up.
You go in dealing with an emotional wound and you're treated like a piece of shit.
Everyone wants us to survive but nobody gives a FUCK about how much pain we're constantly in. IT'S NOT WORTH IT. People claim suicide is selfish. I say people who beg you to stick it out or tell you you have to keep going because people need you are fucked up.
As soon as I can figure out how to guarantee I won't fuck it up, I'm out.

[–]AddisonmorganPsychiatric Councilor 0 points 3 months ago
What about your diagnosis do you think is wrong?

[–]Confident_Flow_795 1 point 3 months ago
Well, for starters, "mood disorder" isn't a diagnosis. Is it depression? Bipolar I/II? NO IDEA! But here's an antidepressant. Since that's not enough, take this mood stabilizer. Not helping? Here's another one! Still depressed? Let's try lithium! Oh, that doesn't do anything? Let's change your antidepressant. Oh, the side effects are bad? Guess we better go back to your old one. Here's a bill for $4,000.

[–]AddisonmorganPsychiatric Councilor 0 points 3 months ago
It sounds like you have been doing a lot of medication management and not a lot of helpful therapy. Medication is great but it should be supplemented by therapy.
It is important to note that some "mood disorders" may be medication resistant (such as BPD) and it might be worth finding someone who can further explore this diagnosis and reevaluate your treatment accordingly.
If you do meet the criteria for say, BPD, there is evidence that this disorder is well treated by ECT because antidepressants are not often very effective.

[–]Confident_Flow_795 1 point 3 months ago
NO FUCKING SHIT.
I can't get decent therapy because when I try to, you know, talk about how I'm feeling, I get FUCKING THREATENED with an involuntary hold. JUST FOR TALKING ABOUT IT.
I'm not a fucking moron. I've been doing this for 20 years. I studied everything I possibly could. I am VERY WELL AWARE that "mood disorders" may be medication resistant.
You can't therapy me into finding something I want to live for. You can't therapy your way out of burnout and chronic illness. You can't therapy your way out of this capitalist hellscape.
NOTHING IS WORTH THIS PAIN AND I NEED SOMEBODY TO FUCKING ACCEPT IT.

[–]AddisonmorganPsychiatric Councilor 0 points 3 months ago
I have to say that based on your tone and hostility towards me calmly talking to you, I don't think your diagnosis of mood disorder is a mistake. I think you should take responsibility for how your disorder may make it more difficult to accept treatment rather than blaming it on those that have tried to help you.
Blaming hospitals is not productive. Maybe you didn't feel helped, but that isn't an accurate depiction of the care others may receive. Don't discourage others seeking help

[–]Confident_Flow_795 1 point 3 months ago
Is "calmly talking" the new cover for being a condescending, insensitive cunt?
Who the fuck do you think you are?
Have you considered that my hostility might be based on the fact that you're glossing over my comments to find places you can stick up for psychiatry? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you're talking to me like I'm a child. Or maybe I'm just fucking fed up with twenty years of being told I'm not trying hard enough to fix myself. Take responsibility? What do you think I'm doing by continually seeking out care that has so far failed me every step of the way?
I don't know why I'm surprised you're not listening.
I'm not blaming hospitals. I'm blaming the whole fucking system for traumatizing people who need help and treating us like criminals for trying to talk about why we're in pain. You're complicit.

[–]AddisonmorganPsychiatric Councilor 1 point 3 months ago
Everything is as you perceive it to be

So as you all can see, the disgusting pro-life mental health professional sticks up for psychiatry, invalidates, gaslights, and infantilizes the person commenting (Confident flow 795), and when confronted, continued to willfully ignore and even play dumb when replying to said person. This pro-life clown would then pretend and keep telling him/herself that he is infallible and can never be refuted.

Now, let's flip the script, and interchange the scenario and see how it plays out:

(Start hypothetical script)

For this hypothetical example of interchanging and flipping the script on the scenario, I will change the roles of 'Confident_Flow_795' and 'Addisonmorgan' so now 'Confident_Flow_795' would be 'Adverse2Hugz' (Note: I just made up some name for this scenario), and 'Addisonmorgan' to 'Confident_Flow_795', which respectively would be 'ProAffectionHugz'. In other words, the situation will be reversed and using hugs as the example just to prove how pro-lifers wouldn't tolerate being treated the same way they treat others (by denying their autonomy).

[–]Adverse2Hugz 21 points 3 months ago
I was 15 the first time I was "hugged". Pulling ones arms towards another person against their will to a stranger was absolutely traumatizing. Adverse-affectionate people deserve a place to talk about their feelings without being threatened with shit like this. Having done it three times, IT DOES NOT HELP.

[–]ProAffectionHugz 2 points 3 months ago
I think you might misunderstand what a hugspace is for. A hugspace for affection boost, just as a medical hugspace is for imminent affection-level replenishment. They keep you safe and treat the imminent affection-starvation but are not really intended for "curing" or treating you. That is why you need follow up care with a affection-consultant. It did help because you're still here. That's the point.

[–]Jebbers199 14 points 3 months ago
How is treating someone like a criminal supposed to make them less traumatized?

[–]ProAffectionHugz -2 points 3 months ago
It may not make you much less traumatized but that's not the point. That might take years. The point is to keep you affection-sated and keep others from being affection-starved. These actions are more often than not impulsive and guided by temporary emotions that feel permanent which lead to making permanent decisions. The point of going into a hugspace is to stabilize and let those feelings pass (and hopefully learn a few coping mechanisms along the way). Treatment should be done in affection-therapy, not necessarily at a hugspace. You wouldn't go to the emergency room for chronic pain, you'd work with your doctor. You'd go to the hugspace with emergent and affection-depleted status.
Measures taken to keep a patients and staff safe are not "treating you like a criminal". They are measures brought about either by law or by prior incidents.
You aren't under arrest and you likely don't have charges pending while in these facilities (some do have charges which is why I say "likely").

[–]giraffeperv 8 points 3 months ago
I mean, justify it all you want. I've been in this position & a visit to the hugspace traumatized me to the point where I would rather die than be humiliated like that again.
And it is being treated like a criminal. I've literally been arrested before and was not violated to the degree as when I went to the hugspace for anti-affection thoughts.

[–]MoonFox1288 -2 points 3 months ago
And yet, you are still here. So the hugging actually did what it was meant to do. Albeit not without its costs to your peace of mind. I hope one day that process isn't so traumatizing.

[–]ProAffectionHugz -3 points 3 months ago
I think some hugspace don't do a very good job at explaining why certain things are done. If you could elaborate maybe I could shed some light.

[–]Adverse2Hugz 3 points 3 months ago
17 years later... I'm still adverse-affectionate. I can't get decent follow up treatment because when I try to talk about my adversity to affection, I get threatened with being put in the hugspace again. I've NEVER attempted to affection-starve myself or hurt anyone else. I just need to talk to someone without the fear of additional trauma and thousands of dollars in bills. It's terrifying. While in the hugspace they don't want us to talk about it either. Just take pro affection drugs and come to useless fucking groups. I feel worse and even more hopeless afterward.

[–]ProAffectionHugz 0 points 3 months ago
Most employees of hugspace are not affection-consultants so it is unethical for them to act as affection-consultant. This risks further damage. It is not the fault of the hugspace that you still have these feelings or are not finding effective hug treatment. It sounds like you need to try something new if what you're doing is not working for you.
Expressing adversity to affection is not necessarily enough to be placed in a hugspace. It crosses that boundary when there is intent or reason to believe that an individual will affection-starve themselves or others.
Groups are what you take from them. They aren't going to help everyone and not everyone is very receptive to what is being talked about, and that's okay. A secondary reason to have groups is to avoid stagnation and isolation. They are giving you something to focus on rather than turning on a TV and letting you sit there your whole stay and learn nothing.
These hug treatments aren't magic. You do have to want to get better in order to get better.

[–]Adverse2Hugz 2 points 3 months ago
Read your message again and take a good look at how condescending you are. We're not stupid. We've been through this before. We know who we're supposed to talk to and who we're not supposed to talk to.
I have been TRYING TO GET BETTER for 20 fucking years.
I've never had a plan. I have never affection-starved anyone else and haven't affection-starved myself in years. I have been sent to hugspace 3 times (most recently this summer) and every time is worse than the last. More isolating, traumatizing, and expensive. I have seen dozens of affection-consultant and affection-doctors and affection-police and affection workers. I have been put on countless affection drugs. I have tried meditation, massage, plant medicine, energy work. PLEASE tell me again that I'm not trying hard enough.
Every single hugverse health "professional" I have tried to open up to about this pain and despair threatens me with sending me to hugspace. So, I can't talk to a affection-consultant AND I can't talk to someone in the hugspace they'll force me into if I try? How the fuck do you people expect us to process anything without basic fucking SAFETY?

[–]ProAffectionHugz 0 points 3 months ago
I am not saying you aren't trying hard. Some people are more affection treatment resistant so need to keep tweaking affectionate methods. You might even look into something like HCT (Hug-compulsion therapy) which is used in cases like this.
I understand that you're frustrated but hugspaces are not a cure and I think your anger is not well placed in this circumstance.
The purpose of sending people to hugspace is safety, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you are upset with a lack of safety.
Obviously I don't know your circumstances, and I can't speak to what your therapists have said because I wasn't there so in the general sense I can only say that as frustrating as it is and maybe it feels like a violation of your trust, huggers are mandated reporters. However you're not likely to be put on a affection status hold without reason to believe you are a danger to yourself or others. Perhaps you didn't see it that way but that doesn't mean you appeared to be stable at that moment.
Expressing that you have had these thoughts in the past or that you affection-adversity is not enough for a hold.

[–]Adverse2Hugz 1 point 3 months ago
I KNOW HUGSPACES AREN'T A CURE. HUGSPACES ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. HUGSPACES ARE WHY THOUSANDS OF US CAN'T GET THE HELP WE NEED.
If I can't talk about my affection-adversity with a affection-consultant or they send me to a hugspace and nobody in the hugspace is qualified to talk to me or allow me to process it, nothing ever changes. DON'T YOU FUCKING GET IT!?!?!?!?
I've tried telling my affection-doctors I think my diagnosis is wrong because nothing works and my symptoms don't fit and they tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and tell me to try another affection-drug. They told me I have a affection disorder but HCT isn't right for me. Nobody listens.
You're not listening either. People like you are why we don't want to fucking try.
Condescending assholes who treat us like idiotic problem children because we're in pain. We need support. We need to talk. We don't "stabilize" by being pumped full of affection-positive drugs and cut off from our lives for days/weeks. You go in with a life-threatening gunshot wound and they'll stop the bleeding, remove the bullet, stitch you up, and tell you what to do do to follow up.
You go in dealing with an emotional wound and you're treated like a piece of shit.
Everyone wants us to survive but nobody gives a FUCK about how much pain we're constantly in. IT'S NOT WORTH IT. People claim affection-adversity is selfish. I say people who beg you to stick it out or tell you you have to keep going because people need you are fucked up.
As soon as I can figure out how to guarantee I won't fuck it up, I'm out.

[–]ProAffectionHugz 0 points 3 months ago
What about your diagnosis do you think is wrong?

[–]Adverse2Hugz 1 point 3 months ago
Well, for starters, "affection disorder" isn't a diagnosis. Is it affect-starved? Bipolar I/II? NO IDEA! But here's an anti-affection-starvant. Since that's not enough, take this affection level stabilizer. Not helping? Here's another one! Still affection-adverse? Let's try copious-copium-lithium! Oh, that doesn't do anything? Let's change your anti-affection-starvant. Oh, the side effects are bad? Guess we better go back to your old one. Here's a bill for $4,000.

[–]ProAffectionHugz 0 points 3 months ago
It sounds like you have been doing a lot of affection medication management and not a lot of helpful affection-consultant. Affection Medication is great but it should be supplemented by affection-consulting.
It is important to note that some "affection disorders" may be medication resistant (such as AAD - Affection-adversity disorder) and it might be worth finding someone who can further explore this diagnosis and reevaluate your treatment accordingly.
If you do meet the criteria for say, AAD, there is evidence that this disorder is well treated by HCT because anti-affection-starvants are not often very effective.

[–]Adverse2Hugz 1 point 3 months ago
NO FUCKING SHIT.
I can't get decent affection-consulting because when I try to, you know, talk about how I'm feeling, I get FUCKING THREATENED with an involuntary hugspace hold. JUST FOR TALKING ABOUT IT.
I'm not a fucking moron. I've been doing this for 20 years. I studied everything I possibly could. I am VERY WELL AWARE that "affection disorders" may be affection medication resistant.
You can't affection-consult me into finding something I want to accept or like. You can't affection-consult your way out of burnout and chronic affection adversity. You can't affection-consult your way out of this affectionistic hellscape.
NOTHING IS WORTH THIS PAIN AND I NEED SOMEBODY TO FUCKING ACCEPT IT.

[–]ProAffectionHugz 0 points 3 months ago
I have to say that based on your tone and hostility towards me calmly talking to you, I don't think your diagnosis of affection adversity disorder is a mistake. I think you should take responsibility for how your disorder may make it more difficult to accept treatment rather than blaming it on those that have tried to help you.
Blaming hugspaces is not productive. Maybe you didn't feel helped, but that isn't an accurate depiction of the care others may receive. Don't discourage others seeking affection

[–]Adverse2Hugz 1 point 3 months ago
Is "calmly talking" the new cover for being a condescending, insensitive cunt?
Who the fuck do you think you are?
Have you considered that my hostility might be based on the fact that you're glossing over my comments to find places you can stick up for affectiontry? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you're talking to me like I'm a child. Or maybe I'm just fucking fed up with twenty years of being told I'm not trying hard enough to fix myself. Take responsibility? What do you think I'm doing by continually seeking out care that has so far failed me every step of the way?
I don't know why I'm surprised you're not listening.
I'm not blaming hugspaces. I'm blaming the whole fucking system for traumatizing people who need help and treating us like criminals for trying to talk about why we're affection-adverse. You're complicit.

[–]ProAffectionHugz 1 point 3 months ago
Everything is as you perceive it to be

(End of hypothetical script)

Obviously, if a pro-lifer (especially those who are not physically affectionate) was the recipient of this blatant, gross, and insulting treatment, infantalizing of their concerns, they wouldn't put up with it and would be quick to shut down the conversation before it even gets that far/anywhere. This just proves that when it comes to the talk about mental health or CTB, they wouldn't have a problem doing all sorts of abuse, dismissal, and even defending the (cruel) treatment of people under the mental health system. Yet, when it comes to a different scenario, especially the hypothetical one I just inserted as an example, they would be up in arms and reject this kind of treatment. Therefore, this thread yet again, proves why pro-lifers are hypocrites.

Basically the point is that they (the pro-lifers) are NOT any more objective or 'right' in their assessment, yet they claim to be and use that as an pretext to rule over/control other dissidents, opponents' rights, freedom, and liberty. Therefore, by interchanging the terms and scenario, it would prove that they wouldn't accept that framework, thus they would be hypocrities to only apply these abhorrent violations of human rights, freedom, and civil liberties just under the pretense of MI, BUT NOT FOR ANY OTHER SCENARIO.

Tl;dr summary: This thread isn't just solely a vent and while I vented some, it is mainly to expose and prove that prolifers have no good argument (or none at all) to justify the cruel treatment of others through the mental health system and if similar things happen to them, even in a different context, they wouldn't accept it. Thus, proving that they are hypocrites.

What are your thoughts on this take? Besides the ludicrosity and bizarre take with physical affection (and hugs), did the logic check out?
@RainAndSadness @FuneralCry @Forever Sleep @SilentSadness @Shadowlord900 @ksp

 

[SilentSadness]

Some of the posts in that thread are absolutely sickening, people really are supportive of abusive behaviour. I agree that pro-lifers wouldn't accept their disgusting actions being done to them if it was a different context, it seems like suicide gets a free pass because prolonging life is supposedly more important than anything. Of course it is illogical that life should be preserved and in reality it's the source of all problems, including treatment such as this. I think you are right to point this out but unfortunately there is no point trying to convince them because they are too far into their delusion, after all anyone who accepts that kind of abuse could never be worth listening to. I wish to die as well so it seems they would be willing to treat me in that repulsive way too. I hope you find peace from this horrific world with these terrible people.

 

[Shadowlord900]

I thought the idea of hospitals was supposed to help cure you... If they still keep you detained without making any decent attempts of trying to treat supposed mental illnesses (I know it's hard but come on, sounds they don't even try to attempt), how does that make it any different than prisons?

I dunno what it's like outside of the UK, but in the UK, mental institutes/hospitals were supposed to be a thing of the past, only to get replaced with psych wards which honestly aren't really much better. But I digress.

Some people think the current system we have is just fine when clearly it's far from it and still loads of room for improvement. Also fear of suicide from some people has gotten so bad now, even just trying to talk your feelings about suicide without making any mention of wanting to commit it short-term is enough to get people triggered.

 

[FuneralCry]

It just could never be worth it having a conversation like that with someone in the first place, pro suffering people disgust me with their insensitivity.

 

[absolomonisgone]

the average pro lifer is an extension of the average person in the streets, work, school or whatever social setting. they never ever think about anything through but only accept meaningless clichés like life is sacred, people love you, a lot of people are going through worse than you, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and such nonsense. the funny thing is they believe it. they lack the temperament to see life for what it is. not that we have to blame them. that's their reality and it's very real to them.

 

[TAW122]

Some of the posts in that thread are absolutely sickening, people really are supportive of abusive behaviour. I agree that pro-lifers wouldn't accept their disgusting actions being done to them if it was a different context, it seems like suicide gets a free pass because prolonging life is supposedly more important than anything. Of course it is illogical that life should be preserved and in reality it's the source of all problems, including treatment such as this. I think you are right to point this out but unfortunately there is no point trying to convince them because they are too far into their delusion, after all anyone who accepts that kind of abuse could never be worth listening to. I wish to die as well so it seems they would be willing to treat me in that repulsive way too. I hope you find peace from this horrific world with these terrible people.

Absolutely on point. Yes, I'm glad that you and the people on SaSu are able to see my demonstration and exposing the pro-lifers for their hypocritical views and sadism. The prohibition of CTB and the right to die with peace and dignity is a big push (catalyst) towards my wanting to CTB. The concept of 'dangling the carrot' (or whatever variation analogy) is what really infuriates me, I would only imagine even in countries that allowed the right to die but for really narrow criteria, that if they did something like that, I'd take legal action and other action against my oppressors. I'm not the type to just go down without a fight and have a strong sense of justice, especially when I have been wronged, but I digress.

I thought the idea of hospitals was supposed to help cure you... If they still keep you detained without making any decent attempts of trying to treat supposed mental illnesses (I know it's hard but come on, sounds they don't even try to attempt), how does that make it any different than prisons?

I dunno what it's like outside of the UK, but in the UK, mental institutes/hospitals were supposed to be a thing of the past, only to get replaced with psych wards which honestly aren't really much better. But I digress.

Some people think the current system we have is just fine when clearly it's far from it and still loads of room for improvement. Also fear of suicide from some people has gotten so bad now, even just trying to talk your feelings about suicide without making any mention of wanting to commit it short-term is enough to get people triggered.

That is what I thought too ever since I learned about what involuntary commitment and psych holds were. When I made the connection, I could never view doctors and the healthcare system in any positive light, but treating them as yet another authoritarian institution with power to threaten one's civil liberties under the guise of health and safety. Also, wow, sounds like the UK is just as draconian when it comes to psych holds and what not. Indeed, it sucks that most of the world and the current times things are still very taboo, especially the talk of the topic of suicide, right to die, and what not.

It just could never be worth it having a conversation like that with someone in the first place, pro suffering people disgust me with their insensitivity.

Me too, it made my blood boil when I read the reddit thread and since it was such a good example to expose the hypocrisy of the prolifers, I decided to write this thread mainly to show/prove the hypocritical nature of pro-lifers in general, especially psychiatry apologists.

the average pro lifer is an extension of the average person in the streets, work, school or whatever social setting. they never ever think about anything through but only accept meaningless clichés like life is sacred, people love you, a lot of people are going through worse than you, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and such nonsense. the funny thing is they believe it. they lack the temperament to see life for what it is. not that we have to blame them. that's their reality and it's very real to them.

Yes, in other words they are delusional and some who have the capacity to see past it, still cling heavily to the status quo and are close-minded towards anything that challenges the notion of 'life is sacred' and similar sentiments.

 

[NoLoveNoHope]

That reddit post made me fucking furious to the point where I posted this thread. It's truly despicable what that institution did to her under the false pretense of "help". Those commenters in support of her abuse are just vile.

This is far from a healing or helping patients. It is traumatizing them by predatory mental health workers. They never wanted to help or assist her. It is so vile, I hate every one of the people who commented in support of her treatment. She was abused end of story. Nothing personally against pro-lifers except those pathetic little snobs.

Sorry for the immaturity, I'm just angry at this. I just needed to vent out a little bit of anger.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Honestly, I'm struggling with this thread. We're hearing the story from their point of view- of course and I agree- it sounds awful.

That first bit about having to strip and lift her breasts/fat in front of strangers REALLY troubled me. Seeing as abuse DOES sometimes go on in these places. Still- then I started to wonder WHY they were doing that... If the person had gotten to the point where they were no longer washing/taking steps to look after themselves. If they were spending lots of time either in bed- or, sedatory- it's a possibility they were checking for bed sores, or chafing. I agree- it's unpleasant having to expose yourself to strangers but I expect this is quite common in a 'care' setting. The problem with mental health is- pressumably- you are still physically able to do these things- except maybe she wasn't looking after herself by that point.

I can completely understand the person's frustration with the other people on that thread but it was kind of clear early on that they were never going to understand. I suppose I would want to ask- how would that lady liked to have been treated? What WOULD have helped her? Why was she sectioned in the first place? What symptoms was she presenting with? Was she resisting treatment?

It very much seemed like she was/is VERY treatment resistant. I'm amazed that she has kept trying with it but I absolutely do feel pissed off that it IS expected that she should just go on trying when some things have made matters worse! At least when physical treatments are in their experimental stage- patients at least SEEM to be given more of a choice. Maybe it's just naivity from my point of view but MOST of psychiatry seems experimental to me! Seeing as we don't fully understand how the brain works and we hear statements like- 'we don't entirely know how these drugs work...' I wouldn't want to be a guinea pig! Not when it could actually make things worse!

I liked your hug substitution. Still- I suppose the problem/difference with being sectioned is that people assume that means you are mentally unstable- perhaps mentally incapable. Rather- than perhaps just looking a bit gloomy and unloved. As soon as someone is deemed unable to make choices for themselves- all sorts of things seem to become permissable in people's eyes if they happen to be for the person's 'greater good.'

That's not really excusing it though. Take the first examination for example- the lady OUGHT to have been told WHY they needed her to strip and to check under her breasts and fat. They OUGHT to have told her it was necessary to do this but they OUGHT to have gotten her permission.

I have worked in care in the past and it is important to make the patient the centre of things. They ought to be complicit in their treatment- not having stuff just done to them. That said- it doesn't always work like that. If the person is (tragically) too far gone to understand that you are trying to help them- no matter how much you explain it to them- you CAN'T just leave them soaking in their own urine/faeces or leave them unwashed. Awfully- sometimes it IS necessary to do stuff they are literally screaming at you and fighting you to stop because if you don't- they WILL develop sores and infections. It's VERY disturbing for everyone involved.

Still- this lady seemed like she would have been able to understand. Her treatment really doesn't sound good. You have to wonder how those pro-lifers would have felt if it were a relative being treated like that.

 

[TAW122]

That reddit post made me fucking furious to the point where I posted this thread. It's truly despicable what that institution did to her under the false pretense of "help". Those commenters in support of her abuse are just vile.

This is far from a healing or helping patients. It is traumatizing them by predatory mental health workers. They never wanted to help or assist her. It is so vile, I hate every one of the people who commented in support of her treatment. She was abused end of story. Nothing personally against pro-lifers except those pathetic little snobs.

Sorry for the immaturity, I'm just angry at this. I just needed to vent out a little bit of anger.

No problem at all and I just read your thread before replying to this one here. I'm glad that my thread has inspired you in some way, and no worries, there could never be enough rage directed at the despicable, barbaric mental health system in the US and around the world. The US being the most notorious mainly because they charge their patients the bill and expect the patient to pay it off (especially with the shitty treatment and degrading process) and be grateful for it. More disgusting that many people (especially the masses) are not only misinformed but also defend such a disgusting system in the first place.

Honestly, I'm struggling with this thread. We're hearing the story from their point of view- of course and I agree- it sounds awful.

That first bit about having to strip and lift her breasts/fat in front of strangers REALLY troubled me. Seeing as abuse DOES sometimes go on in these places. Still- then I started to wonder WHY they were doing that... If the person had gotten to the point where they were no longer washing/taking steps to look after themselves. If they were spending lots of time either in bed- or, sedatory- it's a possibility they were checking for bed sores, or chafing. I agree- it's unpleasant having to expose yourself to strangers but I expect this is quite common in a 'care' setting. The problem with mental health is- pressumably- you are still physically able to do these things- except maybe she wasn't looking after herself by that point.

I can completely understand the person's frustration with the other people on that thread but it was kind of clear early on that they were never going to understand. I suppose I would want to ask- how would that lady liked to have been treated? What WOULD have helped her? Why was she sectioned in the first place? What symptoms was she presenting with? Was she resisting treatment?

It very much seemed like she was/is VERY treatment resistant. I'm amazed that she has kept trying with it but I absolutely do feel pissed off that it IS expected that she should just go on trying when some things have made matters worse! At least when physical treatments are in their experimental stage- patients at least SEEM to be given more of a choice. Maybe it's just naivity from my point of view but MOST of psychiatry seems experimental to me! Seeing as we don't fully understand how the brain works and we hear statements like- 'we don't entirely know how these drugs work...' I wouldn't want to be a guinea pig! Not when it could actually make things worse!

I liked your hug substitution. Still- I suppose the problem/difference with being sectioned is that people assume that means you are mentally unstable- perhaps mentally incapable. Rather- than perhaps just looking a bit gloomy and unloved. As soon as someone is deemed unable to make choices for themselves- all sorts of things seem to become permissable in people's eyes if they happen to be for the person's 'greater good.'

That's not really excusing it though. Take the first examination for example- the lady OUGHT to have been told WHY they needed her to strip and to check under her breasts and fat. They OUGHT to have told her it was necessary to do this but they OUGHT to have gotten her permission.

I have worked in care in the past and it is important to make the patient the centre of things. They ought to be complicit in their treatment- not having stuff just done to them. That said- it doesn't always work like that. If the person is (tragically) too far gone to understand that you are trying to help them- no matter how much you explain it to them- you CAN'T just leave them soaking in their own urine/faeces or leave them unwashed. Awfully- sometimes it IS necessary to do stuff they are literally screaming at you and fighting you to stop because if you don't- they WILL develop sores and infections. It's VERY disturbing for everyone involved.

Still- this lady seemed like she would have been able to understand. Her treatment really doesn't sound good. You have to wonder how those pro-lifers would have felt if it were a relative being treated like that.

Thanks for reading through my very long thread (especially with the substitutions and examples). I would guess that the woman would want to be treated with dignity, not assumed a criminal before due process (she initially didn't commit any crimes, based on what was written), and be able to have a voice (not told and assumed she was insane without any way to defend herself). Yes, I believe that psychiatry is more grey than the other medical sciences because at least for other medical sciences, there are observable, demonstrable, and logical explanations for certain conditions (e.g. a brain bleed, a broken bone, bleeding, a physical wound, etc.) whereas psychiatry and the understanding of the mind is more/less guesswork and for behaviors and how humans or animals act as a natural response, subjective. It seems like the main problem of psychiatry is how it is being weaponized by the state as well as the people with power in order to force people to conform to a certain kind of behavior and any deviation (depending on how much) from it is considered an 'illness' or 'danger' and then the state or those in power assumes authority to dictate and make decisions for said person.

I'm glad you enjoyed my analogy with the 'hug substitution'. My substitution is to prove how if that was done to prolifers (instead of CTB or suicidality but replace it with hugs and physical affection), they wouldn't accept it. They would accept treating suicidal people like animals (or worse), infringing on suicidal people's dignities and civil liberties, and more, but when it is done to them by other contexts (in this case, physical affection and hugs), they wouldn't tolerate ANY of it, therefore making prolifers hypocrites. The reason that I chose hugs and physical affection as an example substitute is that it would be similar to how subjective psychiatry and treating suicidal ideation as an mental illness rather than the act of a rational mind. If the people who refuse physical affection and hugs are considered of sound mind to do so, then so are the suicidal whom are acting under the pretext of bodily autonomy and personal freedom, freedom from suffering. Of course, prolifers will never admit it and thus I taken the liberty of using the example to prove their hypocritical stance.

As for how prolifers themselves would respond, I think there would be two camps. One camp of prolifers would of course, no doubt justify it as for their own (loved ones) good, while the other ones would realize how inhumane and barbaric (their loved ones, or even themselves) the treatment is and perhaps change their views.

 

[NoLoveNoHope]

No problem at all and I just read your thread before replying to this one here. I'm glad that my thread has inspired you in some way, and no worries, there could never be enough rage directed at the despicable, barbaric mental health system in the US and around the world. The US being the most notorious mainly because they charge their patients the bill and expect the patient to pay it off (especially with the shitty treatment and degrading process) and be grateful for it. More disgusting that many people (especially the masses) are not only misinformed but also defend such a disgusting system in the first place.

It's absolutely horrid, with this story she just got forced to endure trauma and pay for it. Thank you for posting things like this though people need to know especially us since we're at risk of the same thing happening.