Random anti-natalism survey

[Deleted member 8119]

Please, no attacks in this thread. I did this for science, not to give a place to preach ideology. Disagreement is fine, but please, be civil and inclusive.

I have tons of curiosity. Since this threads are so popular, I really want to know the exact number of people who holds any of this views, get a better understanding of the overall culture here, and see what profile everyone fits in. AN in general is also kind of obscure, with people of very different beliefs thinking different things, often disagreeing with others, both in and out of the group.

So in what side of the spectrum everyone is?

 

[Agon321]

In general, I think antinatalism is stupid, but if someone doesn't want to have children, I don't see a problem.
This should be an individual and well-thought-out decision.
Don't force it, because it will only bring disappointment.

But if someone insults other people for having children, then in my opinion that person is not reasonable (to put it mildly).

For example, even if I didn't die this year (a very unlikely scenario), I wouldn't see having children as an obligation.
I would most likely consider it a hindrance and never have children.
I have the right to make this decision, just as other people have the right to have children.

Of course, I am not in favor of someone creating children and not being able to provide them with proper living conditions.
This is a problem, especially in poor countries.

We are animals and reproduction is part of our nature.
It's just that thanks to our intelligence, we should do it in a more reasonable way.
But we all know it's not that simple.

 

[Tesha]

Apologies if this post goes a bit wayward, my thoughts are elsewhere at the moment.

Recently I've probably been one of the more vocal on some of these threads. I personally don't have a problem with anyone holding differing opinions to myself. I do have a problem with others trying to intimidate or belittle by name calling or forcing their opinions as fact. That is just not ok about any subject you're passionate about and I will defend myself or others when I see this happening.

With the exception of rape / coercion, there are very limited circumstances where someone is forced to have children (in first world / western cultures). Outside of these scenarios, I think with today's medical advances, abortion and contraception should be easily available for all who want them. If you don't want to use these options, but don't want kids, then keep your dick in your underwear or your legs closed.

I've not shared this before on here - but for the sake of a discussion and not a thread where I'll get 'shouted down', I will. I'm a mother. I had kids with my ex wife. She is the birth mother - I am not. So, I've sat on other threads being slated for 'having kids', when actually I've never given birth. But, I'm still a mother with children.

I've probably had to make more of an informed decision to have children than most people do - it's clearly impossible for two women to 'just get pregnant' naturally; you have to have a plan.

When you have kids that are truly wanted and loved, you will do anything to protect them. When someone tells me that I'm brainless, heartless, abhorrent, selfish (insert any of the myriad of words used on this site) for having kids, that feels like they are telling me my children should never have been born. That these beautiful, intelligent, funny people that are now in my life are not worthy of being here. That their lives are worth less than others.

I had no mental health issues / suicidal thoughts when they were born - things changed and I'm doing my best to still try to put them first. Having kids doesn't make the live / die decision any easier. I think blanket telling people they have to live for their kids is wrong - if a person has tried absolutely everything to get well, then I wouldn't criticise them for their end of life decision. If they haven't, I would keep asking them to explore all treatment options available.

So when you combine the above, I get really reactive and pissed off with people telling me what to do or think. Unless you've had children, you can never understand the impact of that criticism.

I do think anti-natalists are generally projecting their own disappointment and lack of satisfaction in life or inability to flex to life's demands, on others. I'll leave it there, before I move into generalised name calling… which is something younger or less mature people do.

 

[Bruce]

I think these days most people have children as accessories or as slaves. There are not many other reasons, we're not dying and we're not friendly. We're destroying pretty much everything around us, we're hurting humans, animals and plants alike.

Most women usually need accessories because they get bored and need something reactive to play with, something that has difficulties in running away and/or because they get it in their head that they are failures if they don't have children. The system trains them to think that it is what they were made for.

Most men have them because if they don't do what the woman says, they will get the boot and/or because a child is free healthcare when they get older.

The system of course laughs their asses off at the stupidity of normies and is ecstatic at the prospect of slaves. It just doesn't get easier then that.

How do I know this? Sometimes people (men and women) tell me this. It's just.. mindblowing! I don't even know how to react when they say this. Other times is just plain obvious.

It goes without saying that I'm strongly against most humans having children. They hurt them and they hurt me (us, everyone else) through their actions. All actions have consequences but having a child has many more. The more we are, the worst life on the planet is, it's plain obvious when you look around.

That being said, I think there are decent parents (in the world) who have children in good environments and I have nothing against them.

 

[Tesha]

Most women usually need accessories because they get bored and need something reactive to play with, something that has difficulties in running away and/or because they get it in their head that they are failures if they don't have children. The system trains them to think that it is what they were made for.

Most men have them because if they don't do what the woman says, they will get the boot and/or because a child is free healthcare when they get older.

Thanks for making me laugh today - I needed that.

 

[Lady Laudanum]

Just because my parents were shitty people who didn't love me, doesn't mean the rest of the world is like that. The majority of parents are going to be alright, even though no one is perfect. I never want to have kids but what others decide to do is none of my business, really.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I think these days most people have children as accessories or as slaves.

These days? People in the past used to have 5-10 children just to have more hands on the farm or because the children kept dying from environmental factors so only a handful of those would even live.

 

[Bruce]

These days? People in the past used to have 5-10 children just to have more hands on the farm or because the children kept dying from environmental factors so only a handful of those would even live.

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to tone it down. Things are much worse then they seem or then what I said but if you start dropping the hammer of truth then many weak-hearted or naive people will start vacillating and I don't want to deal with denial or low intelligence right now.

 

[Jarni]

I think the film Capernaum (2018) is a must watch on the subject....

"Zain El Hajj, a 12-year-old from the slums of Beirut, is serving a five-year prison sentence in Roumieh Prison for stabbing someone whom he refers to as a "son of a bitch". Neither Zain nor his parents know his exact date of birth as they never applied/received an official birth certificate. Zain is brought before a court, having decided to take civil action against his parents, his mother, Souad, and his father, Selim. When asked by the judge why he wants to sue his parents, Zain answers "Because I was born" (or, more precisely, "because you had me"). Meanwhile, Lebanese authorities process a group of migrant workers, including a young Ethiopian woman named Rahil.

The story then flashes back several months to before Zain was arrested. Zain lives with his parents and takes care of at least seven younger siblings who make money in various schemes instead of going to school. He uses forged prescriptions to purchase tramadol pills from multiple pharmacies, which they crush into powder and soak them into clothes, which his brother sells to drug addicts in prison. Zain also works as a delivery boy for Assad, the family's landlord, and the owner of a local market stall.
..."

-----------

"The film was made with the participation of non-professional actors. All the actors were found through street casting. Children and adults were found on the streets and asked to answer a few questions on camera. For example, children were asked, "Are you happy to be alive?"

Most of the children responded to this question in the same way: "No, I would like to die," "I don't know why I am alive," and so on. None of the children who participated in the casting knew how old they were, when or where they were born, and they had never celebrated their birthday."

 

[qw3rty259]

The listed options don't fit me.

I'm an antinatalist. Having kids is always wrong. I don't respect parents' choices to have kids. I respect the presence of the opportunity to make a choice. My freedom to not have kids is their freedom to have them.
I wouldn't end anyone or anything, it has to be one's choice to end their own life.
The situation with animals is tough. They aren't aware of the position they are in so the vicious circle is always in action for them. But you can't make them give you some opinion lol, so I wouldn't take the responsibility to end their lives either. I'm only glad that I have the cognitive and physical ability to end my own life.

 

[Deleted member 8119]

I'm an antinatalist. Having kids is always wrong. I don't respect parents' choices to have kids. I respect the presence of the opportunity to make a choice. My freedom to not have kids is their freedom to have them.
I wouldn't end anyone or anything, it has to be one's choice to end their life.
The situation with animals is tough. They aren't aware of the position they are in so the vicious circle is always in action for them. But you can't make them give you some opinion lol, so I wouldn't take the responsibility to end their lives either. I'm only glad that I have the cognitive and physical ability to end my own life.

I don't know if the poll is vague, but this perfectly fits Option 4. For anyone else doubting.

 

[qw3rty259]

I don't know if the poll is vague, but this perfectly fits Option 4.

The thing is that personally I don't "want" them to live, but I wouldn't make choice for them. I have no rights to take someone's life just cause I think it would be better for them

 

[Bruce]

The thing is that personally I don't "want" them to live, but I wouldn't make choice for them. I have no rights to take someone's life just cause I think it would be better for them

Why don't you want animals to live?

 

[qw3rty259]

Why don't you want animals to live?

Because as I said, it's just a vicious circle of killing and struggles for the sake of senseless survival

 

[Bruce]

Because as I said, it's just a vicious circle of killing and struggles for the sake of senseless survival

Hmm.. I understand your point. However, I wonder if you're not applying what you feel to what animals feel. We humans do that, we think we're the center and if we feel it then the animals feel it too. I think we don't know much about animals and plants, I think our understanding of them is limited at most. I'm not sure they suffer as much as we do. I'm not saying it's easy for them but they're built for it. They've been practicing for generations. What happens to us is different because the system keeps changing the hurt factor. The end result is the same, subjugation through pain or the threat of it but pain sources change so we cannot adapt. Animals adapt. This is why I think they don't have it as worse as we do.

 

[Skathon]

What option describes you best?

None of the ones listed.

 

[cosmic-freedom]

This is an example of why most children around the world aren't born because parents love each other.Thats for progressive countries.


In many parts of the world,children are a product of coercion,assault or accidents.

My mom was married off forcefully to someone she didn't love,and that monster only continues to abuse her.She genuinely likes kids though.She is the best mom anyone can ask for.But at the end of the day,I am the child of her abuser.
I'm a product of coercion and abuse.Its different when you are born out of love,I guess.

Maybe in some parallel world,if she was able to marry the man she loved then she wouldn't have to struggle with her chronic illnesses and would have lived a great lifestyle abroad.Most importantly,she would have been with someone who loved her deeply.Maybe she would have children with him.And they would have been a lovely family.

She keeps saying that she wants to turn back time.She wishes she didn't deny that person's love.But she has never resented us for being that monster's children.But I know what she feels deep down.

 

[sserafim]

I think it's always wrong to create humans, but I want to preserve animal life.

 

[qw3rty259]

However, I wonder if you're not applying what you feel to what animals feel.

Eh, just watch a discovery channel or something. I guess you're aware about food chains and stuff... It's just a endless cycle or brith and death. I don't think animals enjoy of being eaten. They just lack awareness unlike us, so they think it's the only way for them thus there are no animals that commit suicide. But hey, read my previous posts, even if I think so, I'm aware that we can't know their opinion for sure, so I think it's wrong to make the decision to stop them from procreation or something

The end result is the same, subjugation through pain or the threat of it but pain sources change so we cannot adapt.

What? Read about the human history. Humans are basically the most adaptive organism on this planet among mammals. Until cognitive revolution we were basically as another animal in the middle of the food chain and we managed to get on top of it.

 

[martinso67]

I think it's always wrong to create humans, but I want to preserve animal life.

Did you read works by Schopenhauer? What do you think of him?

 

[Bruce]

(Animals) just lack awareness

Well, since you're saying it then it must be true! I'm sure you conducted many interviews with many individuals of various species and the fact that they did not give replies made you reach that conclusion.

Humans are basically the most adaptive organism on this planet

Sure, that's why we're so good at life! I'm sure that if they put you (or most of the humans) in the middle of the wilderness you'll know how to find food and water, how to build a shelter and basically surive for an eternity. It's 'cause you're so fucking ace.

Wow! Dude!! I'm in awe! Your brain must be super-over-developed.

 

[qw3rty259]

Well, since you're saying it then it must be true! I'm sure you conducted many interviews with many individuals of various species and the fact that they did not give replies made you reach that conclusion.

Ehm, you can just google it if you want to find some studies... There are only few of them who even recognize themselves in the mirror. They can't control themselves as we do. They can't drastically change their behaviour unless it's caused by evolutionary changes. I thought it's obvious.

Sure, that's why we're so good at life!

Yeah, statistically we are.

I'm sure that if they put you (or most of the humans) in the middle of the wilderness you'll know how to find food and water, how to build a shelter and basically surive for an eternity.

The thing is there is no need for that anymore. When there was such need people would actually know all that stuff. Now you can put yourself in the middle of wilderness with all the needed devices and info to survive. I don't know what you're trying to prove aside from your silliness, lmao. You could take away all the modern stuff and knowledge from humans today and the history would probably repeat itself basically, it would be even easier for us than before since all the giant animals that existed back then are already extinct because our ancestors killed them with simple weapons.

Edit: well, the history would actually go the different way, but there's no doubt that we would get to the top of the food chain in no time.

 

[Deleted member 8119]

None of the ones listed.

Elaborate pls.

 

[Dot]

Elaborate pls. I didn't want to add uneeded clutter, and at this point it'd do harm to previous voters.


Yeah... so option 4 lol. Doesn't matter if you want them or not, only that you don't want to end them. I just realized my wording sucks lol.

@Dot can I edit get rights to edit my poll past 6 hours pls?

Pls clarfy

 

[qw3rty259]

I just realized my wording sucks lol.

Well, it's just cause the question is pretty nuanced. It seems principal to me, don't know if it's worth editing tho

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I am not an antinatalist, though I do believe that deciding to have children is an inherently selfish decision and that most parents shouldn't be parents to begin with. People seem to like treating their kids like things that they own rather than like human beings, with children probably being of the most dehumanized demographics out there. Hitting or constantly screaming at your spouse would get you in trouble for abuse, but do it to a child and it's all good, even with decades of research showing how negatively these "disciplinary techniques" impact children. Most parents can't even be bothered to respect their children's boundaries for crying out loud.

The standards for good parenting are so low that I don't think that most people should have children until we work to bring those standards up. While I'm not an antinatalist, I do find myself sympathizing with antinatalist rhetoric. The world is filled with a lot of suffering and even the people that should be trying to go above and beyond for you end up just patting themselves on the back for doing the bare minimum. If you are going to be selfish enough to have a kid then you should be going above and beyond when it comes to raising them (not that it would mean that much considering how low our parenting standards are).

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I'm not antinatalist but I think people should really think about whether it's wise to pro-create or not. In my case, I never intended to pro-create and that was the best decision I ever made - my life would be so much more difficult after I failed in life and that would be an even a bigger hell for children that would depend on me.

Ultimately it's a personal choice bc it just a biological/natural habit to procreate to keeop the species alive.

 

[pyx]

i'm an anti-natalist, though only insofar as its logical backbone is concerned. i care little for whether or not people decide to have children; all i know is that the argument opposing it, to me, contains few faults that come to mind.

 

[Skathon]

Elaborate pls.

What is there to elaborate on...? None of the options listed describe my position on the matter.