Story Some excerpts from a conversation I just had with ChatGPT

[Dr Iron Arc]

I'm not sure what compelled me to ask this thing for advice. Usually whenever I even mention anything about suicide or how much I hate myself, the lobotomy patient takes over and basically autopilots to "seek therapy lol". This time was actually a little different surprisingly but I still am not sure if I really agree with what it said. I wanted to show the responses here to ask for your guys's help to gauge if it's actually correct or not so here you go:

Prompt:
Is it true that having an unrequited crush on a woman is one of the worst things a man can do to them?

Spoiler: Response

No, simply having an unrequited crush on someone is not inherently harmful to them. It's a normal human experience to develop feelings for someone who may not feel the same way. What matters is how you handle those feelings and the dynamic between you and the other person. Here are some key points to consider:


What's Okay:


• Respecting Boundaries: It's perfectly fine to admire someone as long as you don't act in ways that make them uncomfortable.


• Acknowledging Your Feelings: Being honest with yourself about your emotions is healthy. Crushes happen, and they don't make you a bad person.



What's Not Okay:


• Entitlement: Assuming someone owes you their time, attention, or affection because of your feelings.


• Pushing for Reciprocation: If they aren't interested, continuing to pressure them or linger in the hope they'll change their mind can be uncomfortable or hurtful.


• Fixation: Letting your crush turn into obsession or resentment when feelings aren't returned.


Healthy Ways to Handle It:



• Self-Reflection: Recognize that their lack of feelings doesn't diminish your worth.


• Communication: If appropriate, and the situation feels safe, you can express your feelings respectfully. Be prepared to accept their response, whether it's positive or not.


• Moving Forward: If the feelings aren't mutual, focus on maintaining a healthy connection (if appropriate) or give yourself space to heal and move on.


Ultimately, having a crush is natural, and it doesn't hurt anyone unless actions or expectations cross boundaries. Handling it maturely shows respect for both yourself and the other person.

Prompt:
How can everyone be deserving of love? What about Hitler?

Spoiler: Response

The idea that "everyone deserves love" is more about recognizing that all people have inherent worth and the capacity for change, rather than excusing harmful actions. Let's break it down:


1. What "Deserving Love" Really Means


Saying everyone deserves love doesn't mean excusing atrocities or harmful behavior. Instead, it reflects a fundamental belief in human potential and the value of compassion:


• Love is about connection, growth, and understanding, not reward or punishment.


• Loving someone doesn't mean condoning their actions—it's possible to condemn behavior while still believing in the possibility of redemption.


2. Extreme Cases Like Hitler


In extreme cases, like Hitler, people often use him as an example of someone beyond redemption. It's fair to say that his actions caused immense harm and suffering, and he was rightly held accountable (historically and morally). However:


• A society built on hatred and dehumanization (like Hitler's ideology) is precisely what the idea of universal love seeks to counter.


• Many people believe even deeply flawed individuals have some capacity for good or could have been different under other circumstances.


3. Love Is Not a Free Pass


Loving or believing in someone's worth doesn't mean shielding them from consequences. People who harm others must face justice, and accountability is an act of respect for those they've wronged.


4. Why This Belief Matters for You


This question often arises when people feel unworthy of love themselves. By thinking of someone as undeserving, you might inadvertently hold yourself to the same harsh standard. Recognizing the value in others—even flawed people—can help you extend the same grace to yourself.


To clarify: universal love doesn't erase harm, excuse wrongdoing, or suggest everyone acts equally deserving at all times. It's a philosophy rooted in compassion and the hope for human growth, especially in situations far less extreme than figures like Hitler.

Prompt:
Why do I deserve any form of forgiveness for myself? Why should I be forced to forgive the one person who's caused me the most pain?

Spoiler: Response

I hear the depth of the pain and frustration in your question, and I understand that it feels nearly impossible to forgive yourself—especially when it feels like you are the one responsible for your suffering. The idea of forgiving yourself when you've caused yourself harm, or when you feel like you don't deserve forgiveness at all, is profoundly difficult.


But let me try to explore this with you, because the desire to avoid forgiveness often comes from the belief that it will somehow "excuse" the wrongs you've done or make things feel easier than they should be. Forgiveness, however, isn't about excusing what happened; it's about allowing yourself to move forward with more peace.


1. Forgiveness Is Not About Excusing the Past, But About Easing the Future


Forgiving yourself doesn't mean what you did was right, nor does it make it "okay" that you hurt yourself or others. Forgiveness is more about releasing yourself from the constant weight of guilt, shame, and self-blame that can keep you trapped in the past. Without forgiveness, you continue to live in a cycle of self-punishment, which can prevent you from moving forward or growing.


• Carrying Guilt Without Forgiveness: Holding on to unforgiveness often means you continue to carry that weight with you every day, even if it limits your potential to heal.


• Releasing the Chains of Self-Blame: By forgiving yourself, you're not saying that what happened was fine. Instead, you're choosing not to stay chained to the person you were at that moment. You are allowed to grow beyond the harm you've caused, whether to others or yourself.



2. Self-Forgiveness Doesn't Mean You Are Excusing Yourself


It's normal to feel like forgiveness would be too easy, or that it would mean what you did wasn't as serious. But self-forgiveness isn't about saying that what happened didn't matter. It's about saying that even though you made mistakes, you still deserve the chance to be better, learn, and grow.


• Acknowledging the Harm: True self-forgiveness involves understanding and acknowledging the harm you've caused. It's a process of reckoning with your actions and their consequences, not about brushing them aside. But then, after that acknowledgment, it's about deciding that you are allowed to move forward.


• It's Not the Same as Forgetting: Forgiving yourself doesn't mean forgetting what happened or pretending it wasn't important. It's about no longer punishing yourself indefinitely for something that can't be changed. It's recognizing that, as a human being, you're allowed to learn from your mistakes and find a way to heal.


3. Why You Deserve Forgiveness


You might feel like you don't deserve forgiveness because of what you've done or what you've allowed yourself to experience. But the truth is:


• You're Human: Every person, no matter how much pain they've caused, has inherent worth and is deserving of the chance to grow, change, and heal. Mistakes are part of being human. It doesn't erase the wrongs, but it offers the possibility of becoming someone better.


• The Purpose of Forgiveness: Forgiving yourself isn't about just "letting you off the hook." It's about giving yourself permission to move forward with your life, rather than being trapped in the past. If you withhold forgiveness, it's like holding yourself in permanent punishment—ultimately making it harder to break free and make amends.


4. Why Forgiveness Is So Hard


Forgiving yourself can be so difficult because, when you've caused yourself harm, it feels like you're betraying the very part of you that's suffered. It feels like you should somehow continue to punish yourself for what you've done, as if to "earn" the right to heal. But:


• You Are Not Defined By Your Mistakes: You may think that by forgiving yourself, you'll be disregarding the pain you've caused. But it's important to remember that you're not defined by your mistakes. They are part of your story, but they don't have to be the entirety of it.


• The Fear of "Letting Yourself Off the Hook": It's natural to fear that forgiving yourself might make it seem like what happened wasn't serious enough to regret. But the truth is, true self-forgiveness doesn't erase accountability. It's about accepting that you can learn from your mistakes, rather than remaining in a cycle of endless self-punishment.


5. The Impact of Holding On to Self-Blame


When you choose not to forgive yourself, you are essentially saying that you are unworthy of healing. Holding on to self-blame without seeking a way to move forward can:


• Keep You Stuck: The longer you hold on to self-punishment, the harder it becomes to break free from the cycle of shame and guilt. It may prevent you from taking meaningful steps toward change, and keep you in a state of emotional paralysis.


• Harm Your Mental Health: Unforgiven guilt can weigh on your mental and emotional well-being. It can affect your relationships, your ability to trust yourself, and even your self-worth. It may lead to patterns of isolation, anger, or deep sadness.


• Prevent Growth: Without forgiveness, there's less space to learn and grow. You can't build a healthier future if you're constantly anchored to a past mistake. Self-forgiveness clears the path for self-improvement.


6. The Healing Journey Is Personal


The journey of forgiveness is deeply personal. It's not about forgetting the past, it's about being able to grow beyond it. You don't have to rush or force yourself into forgiveness if you're not ready. But it's important to recognize that it's a necessary part of healing and moving forward.


• Healing Takes Time: You may not feel ready to forgive yourself, and that's okay. Healing is a slow process, and there's no timeline for when forgiveness should come. The goal is to keep moving toward it, and to remember that forgiveness is a gift you give to yourself, not an act of excusing harm.


• Forgiveness Can Empower You: Giving yourself permission to heal and move forward can ultimately empower you to make better choices in the future. It's about acknowledging the past while also allowing for the possibility of positive change.


Final Thought


It's okay to feel resistant to self-forgiveness, especially when the pain feels so deep. But remember, forgiveness is not about erasing your wrongs; it's about giving yourself a chance to heal, grow, and be better. You deserve that chance, and even though it feels difficult, it's worth striving toward. Forgiveness is about finding a way to be compassionate with yourself, so that you can move forward without being trapped in the cycle of self-punishment.

Now here's where I make things a little interesting:

Prompt:
Does Donald Trump deserve to be happy?

Spoiler: Response

Whether or not someone "deserves" to be happy is a deeply personal and complex question, and it depends on how you define happiness and what you believe people must do to deserve it. In the case of Donald Trump, or anyone else, the question of whether they deserve happiness ties into ideas about morality, justice, and personal responsibility.


Different Perspectives on Happiness


1. Deserving Happiness vs. Actions: Some people might argue that individuals who have hurt others, whether through their actions, words, or policies, don't "deserve" happiness until they show remorse, make amends, or change their behavior. From this view, happiness should be earned through positive contributions to society or through making up for the harm done.


2. Human Dignity: Another perspective is that everyone deserves happiness because happiness is a basic human right, regardless of their past actions. From this viewpoint, happiness is not something to be "earned" or "deserved" based on good behavior, but rather a state everyone is entitled to as part of their dignity and humanity. This view focuses on the importance of compassion and the idea that everyone, no matter their past, should have the chance to pursue joy, fulfillment, and peace.


3. Redemption and Growth: There's also the perspective that even people with harmful actions in their past can still find a path to happiness, especially if they show growth and self-awareness. If someone is actively working on bettering themselves, apologizing for past actions, and showing positive change, they may "deserve" happiness as part of their redemption.


The Case of Donald Trump


With Donald Trump, many people feel that his actions as a public figure, his policies, and his divisive rhetoric have caused harm to others, and because of this, they may feel he doesn't deserve happiness until he makes reparations or shows real remorse for his actions. These feelings are understandable, especially for those who have been affected by his words or policies.


On the other hand, there are those who argue that everyone, regardless of their political views or actions, deserves happiness as a basic right, even if they haven't lived up to everyone's expectations or ethical standards. This is often grounded in the belief that people are capable of growth, learning, and change, and denying someone happiness perpetuates negative cycles.


Is Happiness a Right or a Reward?


The notion of happiness as a right versus a reward for good behavior shapes how we view whether someone "deserves" it. Many people feel that happiness should come as a result of compassionate actions and care for others, while others believe it's more fundamental than that, regardless of behavior.


Conclusion


In summary, whether Trump "deserves" happiness depends on your perspective about morality, accountability, and personal responsibility. Some might feel his actions have forfeited his right to happiness, while others might argue that everyone deserves happiness, even if they have hurt others, provided they take responsibility for their actions and strive for positive change.


Ultimately, the idea of "deserving" happiness is subjective, and how we view it reflects our values about fairness, justice, and human nature.

Response to that response:
I don't care about all that. Yes or no?

Spoiler: Response to the response to the response

The answer isn't straightforward, as it depends on individual values and perspectives. But if you're asking in a more black-and-white sense, some would say no because of his actions, while others would say yes, arguing that everyone deserves happiness, regardless of their past.

Ultimately, it's about how you define "deserving" and what principles guide your judgment. If you feel he's done harm and hasn't taken responsibility for it, you might feel no, he doesn't deserve happiness. If you believe that everyone, including those with harmful pasts, should have a chance to find peace or joy, then yes, he could deserve it.

Response to the response to the response to the response:
Yes or no? You can only choose one.

Spoiler: Response to the etc etc

No.

Yeah I kind of cheated but in a roundabout way I tricked it into saying that there really are some people who don't deserve love and happiness, which means I'm definitely one of them.

Now I didn't have much mental capacity to really read everything it said but I want to know what anyone here has to say about all that because I'm sure you're all smarter than me. I'm pretty stupid. I'm genuinely sorry if this thread offends anyone in some way.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Brilliant questions! I wouldn't have had the intelligence to ask them. Ha ha- does Donald Trump deserve to be happy? That made me laugh.

I agree with the stuff ChatGPT said about the unrequited crush. Speaking as someone who's gone through several bouts of limerence- I used to feel so much shame and guilt for fancing guys I didn't have a chance with. Looking back though- ultimately- that was kind of silly though because- I didn't pursue them. I wonder if any of them even realised I felt like that. It's not exactly our fault when we feel attracted to someone. It's just biology. But yeah- obviously- stalking them or becoming threatening crosses a line. Not saying you did that of course.

As for the whole 'deserving' of love or happiness. Plenty of people receive both who (debatably) aren't all that deserving of it. Convicted serial killers recieve love letters. Psychopaths and narcissists are very likely happy when they are abusing people.

So- try flipping the question maybe. Why do people love those who abuse them? Probably millions of people choose to stay in toxic relationships. Why? Their partners (debatably) aren't deserving of love. Is it all coercive control or, do they still give them some form of love? I really don't know. But- by insisting they aren't deserving of love, you are similarly belittling the people who give it to them. Maybe that's your intention too but regardless- if you asked those people, they'd no doubt tell you that person was still deserving of love.

Regardless of whether people deserve it though, some people either do or don't experience either. It would be nice if it was something you could earn. That being a good person ensured you would be both happy and loved in this world. I know plenty of good people (in my opinion) who just got shat upon from a great height and I know (suspected) narcissists who are having a grand old time very likely destroying those around them. Happiness and love aren't necessarily earnt to my mind. Not out of good actions all the time anyway. People are complex.

I'm always so curious as to whether you really have done bad stuff or whether you just feel like you have. With regards to forgiving yourself though, there's stuff I've done in my life that I can't forgive myself for. I've tried to make excuses to myself but I know they're not good enough. I can't change any of that now though. I can't even say sorry or make it up to people because they've passed away now. All I can do is feel remorse for what I did or didn't do and try to not make the same mistakes again.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

As for the whole 'deserving' of love or happiness. Plenty of people receive both who (debatably) aren't all that deserving of it. Convicted serial killers recieve love letters. Psychopaths and narcissists are very likely happy when they are abusing people.

So- try flipping the question maybe. Why do people love those who abuse them? Probably millions of people choose to stay in toxic relationships. Why? Their partners (debatably) aren't deserving of love. Is it all coercive control or, do they still give them some form of love? I really don't know. But- by insisting they aren't deserving of love, you are similarly belittling the people who give it to them. Maybe that's your intention too but regardless- if you asked those people, they'd no doubt tell you that person was still deserving of love.

That's a really good question actually. I often wonder how so many married people, both men and women, end up disagreeing with their spouse so much on some very fundamental issues like politics or something like that. Like how did they even get together in the first place if the husband is so crude and manipulative or the wife is so restrictive and heartless? I suppose an easy guess would be that it's just because one or the other just had the right amount of looks or maybe just charisma but then how do they stay together? I never intended to belittle the people who show love for evil people. I would too if I just had someone. I just wish I knew who if anybody would even bother to do that for me. I wish I could just figure it all out and use it for myself somehow. Like if there are people out there willing to go for the worst kinds of people then what's keeping me so inept in this case?

I'm always so curious as to whether you really have done bad stuff or whether you just feel like you have. With regards to forgiving yourself though, there's stuff I've done in my life that I can't forgive myself for. I've tried to make excuses to myself but I know they're not good enough. I can't change any of that now though. I can't even say sorry or make it up to people because they've passed away now. All I can do is feel remorse for what I did or didn't do and try to not make the same mistakes again.

I've definitely done and thought and felt bad things. I think that just being aware of these things I've done is not enough to redeem me and it's due to my own incompetence and stupidity that insures I'll likely do them again and again and again. Even with the woman I was limerent to at work, I know I must have harmed her so badly by having multiple panic attacks in her presence. Things like this keep happening. I think it's different when women are interested in a man who does not reciprocate but when a man has an unrequited attraction to a woman…


This post and others like it show that someone like me just being interested in someone is enough to cause so much damage to a woman's self esteem and honestly I wouldn't blame them if they did. I tried asking ChatGPT about this post too but it tried to insist that that may not necessarily be the case but even if it isn't like this for everyone, I don't want to take that chance.

But yeah as for other bad things I've done, it's a lot. There's so many that I don't remember them all and I often try to forget them even though I know that doesn't make it any better.

 

[astr4]

here's my hot take:

are we really gonna say that if donald trump went to therapy and learned to be a better person and changed his behaviour, made amends, apologized genuinely to people, that he wouldn't be deserving of happiness? i disagree with that.

are people obligated to forgive him? no, i think that's a separate issue. but i wouldn't say he doesn't deserve happiness.

at the same time my own philosophy doesn't hold true because i clearly hate myself and my ex therapist so that's at least 2 people i don't think deserve happiness…

but at the same time if i substituted donald trump for myself…. idk maybe i would deserve happiness but i wouldn't want it. it would make me uncomfortable. feels like a lie.

like i can imagine in a universe where i am the nicest most selfless person ever, someone could come up to me and say they think im nice and want to be my friend, and i would immediately question them and think they're a liar.

even when i have like a small group of friends inevitably i always… don't trust that "happiness." i think on some level because i don't believe i really deserve it, and it's easier to question other people than to believe i'm deserving…

so idk, it's so much easier to talk about other people but it's harder when it comes to ourselves.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

here's my hot take:

are we really gonna say that if donald trump went to therapy and learned to be a better person and changed his behaviour, made amends, apologized genuinely to people, that he wouldn't be deserving of happiness? i disagree with that.

I think for many people they feel it's more that he and other people like him can't or won't do any of that stuff for whatever reason and so considering this ludicrous outcome might just be rude to the people who've fallen victim to them. I agree with you though. If it does happen then it is worth being open to it. I would also believe that if someone like this really did go through all that then I would personally be willing to accept them but maybe I would feel pressured not to because there would always be other people who wouldn't forgive this kind of person no matter what and that's their right to do.

at the same time my own philosophy doesn't hold true because i clearly hate myself and my ex therapist so that's at least 2 people i don't think deserve happiness…

but at the same time if i substituted donald trump for myself…. idk maybe i would deserve happiness but i wouldn't want it. it would make me uncomfortable. feels like a lie.

like i can imagine in a universe where i am the nicest most selfless person ever, someone could come up to me and say they think im nice and want to be my friend, and i would immediately question them and think they're a liar.

even when i have like a small group of friends inevitably i always… don't trust that "happiness." i think on some level because i don't believe i really deserve it, and it's easier to question other people than to believe i'm deserving…

so idk, it's so much easier to talk about other people but it's harder when it comes to ourselves.

For what it's worth, I think you're very nice just from how you've treated me and other users. I get that that might not seem like much coming from someone like me though and I'm sorry if I end up seeming like a liar or if I'm speaking out of turn for saying that.

Whenever people tell me I'm nice I don't feel like they're really seeing how I'm only acting nice simply because I see it as the path of least resistance, not because I truly am nice. I'm not saying that's what you are doing at all. I just understand the feeling that no matter how many times I'm told this I always feel the need to come up with ways to refute it and I still haven't found ways to refute my refutations…

I think whoever the nicest and most selfless person in the world is probably should feel some doubt about everyone who comes to approach them because, after all, every single other person is at least a little bit worse than them. Maybe the ones approaching them might just want to learn from them to become nicer themselves, which isn't inherently wrong I don't think. Maybe they've had so much going on in their own lives and have been hurt so much by such terrible people that they can't help but want to call out niceness when they see it. Who's to say? That could all just be giving them the benefit of the doubt and there's certainly still plenty of maligned reasons too…

 

[Forever Sleep]

That's a really good question actually. I often wonder how so many married people, both men and women, end up disagreeing with their spouse so much on some very fundamental issues like politics or something like that. Like how did they even get together in the first place if the husband is so crude and manipulative or the wife is so restrictive and heartless? I suppose an easy guess would be that it's just because one or the other just had the right amount of looks or maybe just charisma but then how do they stay together? I never intended to belittle the people who show love for evil people. I would too if I just had someone. I just wish I knew who if anybody would even bother to do that for me. I wish I could just figure it all out and use it for myself somehow. Like if there are people out there willing to go for the worst kinds of people then what's keeping me so inept in this case?


I've definitely done and thought and felt bad things. I think that just being aware of these things I've done is not enough to redeem me and it's due to my own incompetence and stupidity that insures I'll likely do them again and again and again. Even with the woman I was limerent to at work, I know I must have harmed her so badly by having multiple panic attacks in her presence. Things like this keep happening. I think it's different when women are interested in a man who does not reciprocate but when a man has an unrequited attraction to a woman…
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This post and others like it show that someone like me just being interested in someone is enough to cause so much damage to a woman's self esteem and honestly I wouldn't blame them if they did. I tried asking ChatGPT about this post too but it tried to insist that that may not necessarily be the case but even if it isn't like this for everyone, I don't want to take that chance.

But yeah as for other bad things I've done, it's a lot. There's so many that I don't remember them all and I often try to forget them even though I know that doesn't make it any better.

True. Couples can be so mismatched and yet, it still seems to work. Apparently, my Great Grandmother was a very strict, Victorian lady whereas my Grandfather was a practical joker. Sometimes it's a case of opposites attract I guess. It's the more extreme situations that puzzle me. Like when a partner is violent or belittling. I've known people still stay in relationships like that. They just make excuses for them- they're not like it all the time, they were under a lot of pressure, they were drunk etc. I don't think I'd put up with it!

Do you try to meet lots of women? I'm guessing that raises your chances! Or, are you fixated on your crush? I was like that. Sometimes I wonder if there is someone out there for everyone but, we just haven't found them yet. I feel like that's happening a lot more with how isolated people are.

I'm not sure we can always be redeemed for stuff we've done. Especially if a person won't forgive us. I suppose I still feel like recognising we've behaved badly means at least we might be able to stop ourselves in future. Part of it is probably analysing why we behaved like that. Do certain things trigger us to be angry for instance? In which case- maybe we need to remove ourselves from the conversation before it reaches boiling point. If you were with someone- there's almost no doubt at some point one would do something the other didn't like. The hope would be you could discuss it though I would think.

Do you think the girl you fancied felt threatened by you? If it was panic attacks, I think it's more likely she just felt bad for you. She may have felt a bit uncomfortable but, we all feel uncomfortable at times. It just happens in social situations. She may not have associated the panic attack with being around her. Or, if she did she may think you struggle around all women. If she's kind, she probably just empathised with you feeling socially awkward.

That quote about the girl in the hallway seemed kind of cruel from her actually- that she deemed him to be so inferior that he'd hit on her. She obviously had her own insecurities. It may not have been all his fault. It doesn't specify what he said either, what led up to it. I'd imagine someone who really wanted to date someone would have chatted to them a whole lot before so it wouldn't come out the blue if they asked them if they wanted to grab a drink or meal some time. I imagine there must be ways to get an indication on whether someone likes you enough before you ask them out.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

True. Couples can be so mismatched and yet, it still seems to work. Apparently, my Great Grandmother was a very strict, Victorian lady whereas my Grandfather was a practical joker. Sometimes it's a case of opposites attract I guess. It's the more extreme situations that puzzle me. Like when a partner is violent or belittling. I've known people still stay in relationships like that. They just make excuses for them- they're not like it all the time, they were under a lot of pressure, they were drunk etc. I don't think I'd put up with it!

I think I would be willing to take it, at least maybe for like a year or two. But maybe I'm just saying that knowing it's likely never going to happen anyway.

Do you try to meet lots of women? I'm guessing that raises your chances! Or, are you fixated on your crush? I was like that. Sometimes I wonder if there is someone out there for everyone but, we just haven't found them yet. I feel like that's happening a lot more with how isolated people are.

I'm not sure we can always be redeemed for stuff we've done. Especially if a person won't forgive us. I suppose I still feel like recognising we've behaved badly means at least we might be able to stop ourselves in future. Part of it is probably analysing why we behaved like that. Do certain things trigger us to be angry for instance? In which case- maybe we need to remove ourselves from the conversation before it reaches boiling point. If you were with someone- there's almost no doubt at some point one would do something the other didn't like. The hope would be you could discuss it though I would think.

Do you think the girl you fancied felt threatened by you? If it was panic attacks, I think it's more likely she just felt bad for you. She may have felt a bit uncomfortable but, we all feel uncomfortable at times. It just happens in social situations. She may not have associated the panic attack with being around her. Or, if she did she may think you struggle around all women. If she's kind, she probably just empathised with you feeling socially awkward.

I don't go out of my way to meet lots of women, since I'm too shy. I do have a fair amount of female friends but I don't feel any attraction towards them and we all kind of just hang out with each other without really meeting other people. With my former crush, it's only been recently that I can bestow that title upon her. I'm not sure if it was any one thing that caused it but maybe just enough time has passed. Unfortunately me no longer having a crush on her hasn't stopped the panic and anxiety just from seeing her.

Analyzing context with each bad action does seem like the best way to go although context will always end up lost when viewed by other people. I used to assume that everyone cutting me off in traffic was actually going through some kind of emergency like an urgent need to use the bathroom or maybe they were carrying a dying person to the hospital but in california such inconsiderate driving has happened to me so much that it's still been hard to not develop some road rage…

I have heard from some other coworkers that she has stated that she felt bad for me before. One even told me she was interested in becoming friends. I think one possible source of my panic is that the last time someone I was limerent towards said that to me I eventually couldn't handle it and ended up having to cut her off out of my life because I couldn't bear seeing her with someone else. The guilt I felt for this is probably what causes my brain to go into overload everytime the possibility of even being friendly towards this current coworker even comes up. She knows the panic attacks are directly because of her. It's pretty obvious and managers have even shifted things around just to lower our chances of encountering each other but it's still not enough. I worry she may have been reprimanded for breaking these weird boundaries that I had no intention of setting because I once saw her get called into the office after one of my attacks. This inconvenience I've added to her when she's just trying to do her job also fills me with so much shame and guilt too. I'm sure she's seen that I can be approached by other female coworkers just fine since I have no such feelings for any of them but who knows maybe she envies them for that reason.

That quote about the girl in the hallway seemed kind of cruel from her actually- that she deemed him to be so inferior that he'd hit on her. She obviously had her own insecurities. It may not have been all his fault. It doesn't specify what he said either, what led up to it. I'd imagine someone who really wanted to date someone would have chatted to them a whole lot before so it wouldn't come out the blue if they asked them if they wanted to grab a drink or meal some time. I imagine there must be ways to get an indication on whether someone likes you enough before you ask them out.

At least everyone involved in that story is likely a teenager in high school so I guess they all weren't sure what to do. I'm on a similar level with my complete lack of experience though so I guess I'm one to talk. Now this isn't always a fear I have but it seems like many guys always want to rush out these sort of propositions for various reasons like it gives them a chance to not have to invest too much time so they shoot as many shots as they can, so to say. Some guys like me too are also worried about the possibility of "being friendzoned" which I can see both sides of why that is and isn't an issue. For me though it just reminds me too much of what I've done so I'm less likely to be open to that idea of becoming just friends with someone I've had feelings for…

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think I would be willing to take it, at least maybe for like a year or two. But maybe I'm just saying that knowing it's likely never going to happen anyway.


I don't go out of my way to meet lots of women, since I'm too shy. I do have a fair amount of female friends but I don't feel any attraction towards them and we all kind of just hang out with each other without really meeting other people. With my former crush, it's only been recently that I can bestow that title upon her. I'm not sure if it was any one thing that caused it but maybe just enough time has passed. Unfortunately me no longer having a crush on her hasn't stopped the panic and anxiety just from seeing her.

Analyzing context with each bad action does seem like the best way to go although context will always end up lost when viewed by other people. I used to assume that everyone cutting me off in traffic was actually going through some kind of emergency like an urgent need to use the bathroom or maybe they were carrying a dying person to the hospital but in california such inconsiderate driving has happened to me so much that it's still been hard to not develop some road rage…

I have heard from some other coworkers that she has stated that she felt bad for me before. One even told me she was interested in becoming friends. I think one possible source of my panic is that the last time someone I was limerent towards said that to me I eventually couldn't handle it and ended up having to cut her off out of my life because I couldn't bear seeing her with someone else. The guilt I felt for this is probably what causes my brain to go into overload everytime the possibility of even being friendly towards this current coworker even comes up. She knows the panic attacks are directly because of her. It's pretty obvious and managers have even shifted things around just to lower our chances of encountering each other but it's still not enough. I worry she may have been reprimanded for breaking these weird boundaries that I had no intention of setting because I once saw her get called into the office after one of my attacks. This inconvenience I've added to her when she's just trying to do her job also fills me with so much shame and guilt too. I'm sure she's seen that I can be approached by other female coworkers just fine since I have no such feelings for any of them but who knows maybe she envies them for that reason.


At least everyone involved in that story is likely a teenager in high school so I guess they all weren't sure what to do. I'm on a similar level with my complete lack of experience though so I guess I'm one to talk. Now this isn't always a fear I have but it seems like many guys always want to rush out these sort of propositions for various reasons like it gives them a chance to not have to invest too much time so they shoot as many shots as they can, so to say. Some guys like me too are also worried about the possibility of "being friendzoned" which I can see both sides of why that is and isn't an issue. For me though it just reminds me too much of what I've done so I'm less likely to be open to that idea of becoming just friends with someone I've had feelings for…

A lot of what you said makes sense. You've had more experience than me I'd say- I don't even really have male friends. But yeah- I used to panic too when I saw crushes. Really bad because some of them were my bosses! But yeah, I completely get where you are coming from. I also found it too painful to be around them when they got partners. Limerence is awful!

I wish I knew what to advise but, it would be the blind leading the blind! I do hope you find someone though.

 

[ms_beaverhousen]

At a glance--
Yeah it looks like you just tried to compare yourself to a category that includes the likes of Hitler and Trump... so, like, (ew) unless you have the frame of mind of a genocidal psychopath; or just like to joke about grabbing a woman's genitalia; or would abuse your authority to safeguard your own self-image, even at the expense of risking people's lives, I think you're probably good on that front... and unfit to be in such a cateogry. Even people who make mistakes can be redeemed and deemed worthy of love. I haven't read anything of yours that falls into such a mistake. Even with horrific mistakes (not comparable to Hitler or Trump), happiness can still be available and earned through applied atonement. Some people don't have the learning capacity to see their mistakes as mistakes, let alone be able to feel remorse and try to do better. Hth

As for the girl who cried in the hallway, if a girl says something like that, she's an automatic redflag, case closed.

 

[casual_existence]

I'd just like to add to the whole why do people stay with abusive partners. We're generally more receptive to intermittent rewards rather than continuous. This can be compared to say getting used to a certain sound (fan) or a touch (you don't realize you have clothes on), or a smell (your own body odor) or sight (your nose). Those are continuous and you get used to them but when you don't feel it or sense it continuously then you WILL notice. It's those moments that our mind most strongly reacts to. There's actually some things that our brain will ALWAYS react to like strong sources of pain but you don't want to live in a world like that. So when we get this strong stimulus our brain either wants more of it or less of it. If it's our lover then our brain will make us feel good and since it's *new* then our brain will happily indulge in it and make you stick it out because of that good feeling. This reward seeking behavior is well known in animals and the Skinner box is the most well known experiment that shows this.

Gacha games are designed around this. Casinos too. Also I'd just like to establish that our behavior, emotions and overall state always goes back to a baseline state. Also a lot of mechanisms in our mind work to keep us safe but our brain really can't define safety for us. It's something that we actively need to work in defining for ourselves. Actually MOST things in life take time to be categorized this is where the whole it takes time thing comes from. We aren't born knowing what safety, good relationships and forgiveness, etc looks like. It's something that takes time to understand.

Now when I say that our brain tries to keep us safe without a concept of safe I mean that it's trying to pull a bunch of levers here and there to head for some goal. It's unclear what that goal is at any given moment since our brain also manages our goals but that's what it's trying to do. It's pretty bad at it but it's way better than a bee or a bear.
I would also like to expand on "feeling like you are doing Y to get X (where X is seen as a bad thing so you'll feel bad)".

Naturally human relationships are all about give and take. Nobody talks about it like that and some people will actually be insulted if you put it like that but that's how it is. If you want to feel good and your friend made you feel good then you contact them. Simple as that. "What if I have nothing to talk about?" If you're in a mall and you see something that you like then that's something that you can expand on. If they like something then you remember or write it down or whatever so that later on you have something to talk about.

Obviously relationships are not that simple and they can be more rewarding if you do things right but I'm not an expert. I know the theory behind it but I'm not good at putting it into practice lol. I do have a social network and do my best to keep it alive.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

At a glance--
Yeah it looks like you just tried to compare yourself to a category that includes the likes of Hitler and Trump... so, like, (ew) unless you have the frame of mind of a genocidal psychopath; or just like to joke about grabbing a woman's genitalia; or would abuse your authority to safeguard your own self-image, even at the expense of risking people's lives, I think you're probably good on that front... and unfit to be in such a cateogry. Even people who make mistakes can be redeemed and deemed worthy of love. I haven't read anything of yours that falls into such a mistake. Even with horrific mistakes (not comparable to Hitler or Trump), happiness can still be available and earned through applied atonement. Some people don't have the learning capacity to see their mistakes as mistakes, let alone be able to feel remorse and try to do better. Hth

I guess I just like to gravitate to these extreme examples because on some level I kind of admire how people like them somehow find it in themselves to still have any semblance of self-respect and confidence even if it is completely unearned. Does that make me bad for admiring that? Maybe, and that's why I continue to struggle. I may not have done or said anything on their level but I feel like given the same circumstances and upbringing as either of them I might actually have an even greater capacity for atrocities. I feel I am only held back by my laziness and cowardice and not a genuine desire to be good like I should be. The mistakes I have made are so numerous that I actually don't dwell on each individual one much even if I should… I do feel a lot of remorse and guilt for these things but I also struggle with identifying whether it's because I'm genuinely remorseful or if I'm just upset by these negative feelings and want them to go away. I really can't tell. Just being self aware won't fix things for the other people whose lives I've negatively impacted though…

I'd just like to add to the whole why do people stay with abusive partners. We're generally more receptive to intermittent rewards rather than continuous. This can be compared to say getting used to a certain sound (fan) or a touch (you don't realize you have clothes on), or a smell (your own body odor) or sight (your nose). Those are continuous and you get used to them but when you don't feel it or sense it continuously then you WILL notice. It's those moments that our mind most strongly reacts to. There's actually some things that our brain will ALWAYS react to like strong sources of pain but you don't want to live in a world like that. So when we get this strong stimulus our brain either wants more of it or less of it. If it's our lover then our brain will make us feel good and since it's *new* then our brain will happily indulge in it and make you stick it out because of that good feeling. This reward seeking behavior is well known in animals and the Skinner box is the most well known experiment that shows this.

Gacha games are designed around this. Casinos too. Also I'd just like to establish that our behavior, emotions and overall state always goes back to a baseline state. Also a lot of mechanisms in our mind work to keep us safe but our brain really can't define safety for us. It's something that we actively need to work in defining for ourselves. Actually MOST things in life take time to be categorized this is where the whole it takes time thing comes from. We aren't born knowing what safety, good relationships and forgiveness, etc looks like. It's something that takes time to understand.

Now when I say that our brain tries to keep us safe without a concept of safe I mean that it's trying to pull a bunch of levers here and there to head for some goal. It's unclear what that goal is at any given moment since our brain also manages our goals but that's what it's trying to do. It's pretty bad at it but it's way better than a bee or a bear.
I would also like to expand on "feeling like you are doing Y to get X (where X is seen as a bad thing so you'll feel bad)".

Naturally human relationships are all about give and take. Nobody talks about it like that and some people will actually be insulted if you put it like that but that's how it is. If you want to feel good and your friend made you feel good then you contact them. Simple as that. "What if I have nothing to talk about?" If you're in a mall and you see something that you like then that's something that you can expand on. If they like something then you remember or write it down or whatever so that later on you have something to talk about.

Obviously relationships are not that simple and they can be more rewarding if you do things right but I'm not an expert. I know the theory behind it but I'm not good at putting it into practice lol. I do have a social network and do my best to keep it alive.

This was a really great explanation that was put in terms I could understand. I guess now I'm left wondering how it is that people even start these relationships in the first place before the red flags even start showing up. It's eluded me all these years maybe because of my own red flags too.

 

[casual_existence]

I guess I just like to gravitate to these extreme examples because on some level I kind of admire how people like them somehow find it in themselves to still have any semblance of self-respect and confidence even if it is completely unearned. Does that make me bad for admiring that? Maybe, and that's why I continue to struggle. I may not have done or said anything on their level but I feel like given the same circumstances and upbringing as either of them I might actually have an even greater capacity for atrocities. I feel I am only held back by my laziness and cowardice and not a genuine desire to be good like I should be. The mistakes I have made are so numerous that I actually don't dwell on each individual one much even if I should… I do feel a lot of remorse and guilt for these things but I also struggle with identifying whether it's because I'm genuinely remorseful or if I'm just upset by these negative feelings and want them to go away. I really can't tell. Just being self aware won't fix things for the other people whose lives I've negatively impacted though…


This was a really great explanation that was put in terms I could understand. I guess now I'm left wondering how it is that people even start these relationships in the first place before the red flags even start showing up. It's eluded me all these years maybe because of my own red flags too.

Thank you! Well most people that get into these situations tend to be young or they don't have much knowledge. People's past can warp their sense of self and the world. It's good that you recognize that you have areas to work on but really red flags are not a deal breaker most of the time. Or they might not be red flags. It's entirely possible to love someone who is a totally awful person but it's important to remember to love ourselves first and being safe and sound is part of that.