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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
It is an heated topic. So far I only read media articles later I want to read scientifical articles to get a better picture of the situation.
My conclusions are so far provisional and still can change,

I am from Germany and the relation between Germany and Israel is controversial. Angela Merkel said the German "Staatsräson" reasons of state is the security of the Israel state. Due to our past we have a special duty to protect Israel. I agree on that.

The German population though questions whether Israel is really the victim in this conflict. Especially many leftwingers see Palestine as the less powerful state which has many disadvantages. I don't have a strong opinion on that. I needed to read more literature on the history of that conflict.

I think it is easy for people to judge Israel if they themselves live in peaceful countries, where they never have to fear an assault. If you yourself lost a loved one to terrorists it is hard to stay rational and not be overwhelmed by your emotions. I think many Western politicians fear an over-reaction of Israel. I think Scholz and Macron found the right words. It is similar (in my opinion) of what happened after 9/11. One seeks for revenge for some justice but this clearly can lead to collateral damage. I think it would lead to way too many deaths of civilians if they cut off huge parts of Palestine from their resources. In the longrun this won't stop the terror it would make everything way worse. Or sending the ground troops in certain areas has also devastating consequences. The Hamas stops the evacuations and people in hospitals cannot leave anyway. So many of them would be doomed to a very cruel death.

I sympathize a lot with many liberal Israelis who warned the nation that inevitably retaliations will happen if the conflicts is does not get solved by cooperation. There are right wing extremists in the Israeli government who certainly do not act in favor to solve this problem with peaceful means. However I think the Hamas is probably worse than these extremists. But both fuel this conflict so much that a further bloodbath is seemingly unavoidable.

The Hamas probably aided by Iran and other nations wanted to attack Israel in a vulnerable state i.e. the constitutional crisis that Netanjahu provoked to save his own ass from prison. I once made a thread it is a great example how some states men put their own well-being over the well-being of the country.

I really hoped that the constitutional court came to a reasonable solution to save the Israeli democracy. However the Hamas shamelessly attacked Israel. They are fully responsible of what is happening now. They wanted that attack and now the civilians on both sides are once again the victims.

I don't see any improvement in the next future. The situation probably escalates very much soon but I hope no other nation will declare a war on Israel this could happen very easily. One should not consider the safety of Israel self-evident. I am too young to have experienced how Israel won wars against nations which wanted to eradicate it. I am scared whether the US and the rest of the Western world will be able to help Ukraine and Israel at the same to time to defend their right to exist as an independent country.

The current political situation can be pretty depressing. But maybe we in peaceful countries can see how greatful we must be for freedom, liberal values and that we should not take democracy for granted.
 
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P

pole

Global Mod
Sep 18, 2018
1,385
It is an heated topic. So far I only read media articles later I want to read scientifical articles to get a better picture of the situation.
My conclusions are so far provisional and still can change,

I am from Germany and the relation between Germany and Israel is controversial. Angela Merkel said the German "Staatsräson" reasons of state is the security of the Israel state. Due to our past we have a special duty to protect Israel. I agree on that.

The German population though questions whether Israel is really the victim in this conflict. Especially many leftwingers see Palestine as the less powerful state which has many disadvantages. I don't have a strong opinion on that. I needed to read more literature on the history of that conflict.

I think it is easy for people to judge Israel if they themselves live in peaceful countries, where they never have to fear an assault. If you yourself lost a loved one to terrorists it is hard to stay rational and not be overwhelmed by your emotions. I think many Western politicians fear an over-reaction of Israel. I think Scholz and Macron found the right words. It is similar (in my opinion) of what happened after 9/11. One seeks for revenge for some justice but this clearly can lead to collateral damage. I think it would lead to way too many deaths of civilians if they cut off huge parts of Palestine from their resources. In the longrun this won't stop the terror it would make everything way worse. Or sending the ground troops in certain areas has also devastating consequences. The Hamas stops the evacuations and people in hospitals cannot leave anyway. So many of them would be doomed to a very cruel death.

I sympathize a lot with many liberal Israelis who warned the nation that inevitably retaliations will happen if the conflicts is does not get solved by cooperation. There are right wing extremists in the Israeli government who certainly do not act in favor to solve this problem with peaceful means. However I think the Hamas is probably worse than these extremists. But both fuel this conflict so much that a further bloodbath is seemingly unavoidable.

The Hamas probably aided by Iran and other nations wanted to attack Israel in a vulnerable state i.e. the constitutional crisis that Netanjahu provoked to save his own ass from prison. I once made a thread it is a great example how some states men put their own well-being over the well-being of the country.

I really hoped that the constitutional court came to a reasonable solution to save the Israeli democracy. However the Hamas shamelessly attacked Israel. They are fully responsible of what is happening now. They wanted that attack and now the civilians on both sides are once again the victims.

I don't see any improvement in the next future. The situation probably escalates very much soon but I hope no other nation will declare a war on Israel this could happen very easily. One should not consider the safety of Israel self-evident. I am too young to have experienced how Israel won wars against nations which wanted to eradicate it. I am scared whether the US and the rest of the Western world will be able to help Ukraine and Israel at the same to time to defend their right to exist as an independent country.

The current political situation can be pretty depressing. But maybe we in peaceful countries can see how greatful we must be for freedom, liberal values and that we should not take democracy for granted.

you touched on important points, especially regarding how many of us in the west, on the outside looking in, have been approaching this conflict.

to build on that, it's where i respectfully disagree with your sentiments about the responsibility for the war crimes and violations of international humanitarian law currently happening in Gaza being entirely on Hamas alone.

instead, I point to how Israeli citizens themselves feel about what's happening. like you highlighted, many of which warned the regime for years about innocent civilians in Israel having to pay the price for the consequences of the state and its violent occupation.

you would think after the attack, the divide would shrink. similar to post 9/11, people would rally behind the regime, like Americans did to tackle the "war on terror." but the exact opposite is happening. Israel is now even more divided on the matter than ever before.

new polls in recent days demonstrated that Israelis continue to feel that the blood is also on the hands of the regime, as "86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country's leadership, while a staggering 92% said the war is causing anxiety". four of five Jewish Israelis believe the government is to blame for the infiltration of terrorists into Israel and the massacre that followed.


family members of victims who have lost loved ones in the massacre echoing the same sentiments: the regime using the death of innocent Israeli people as a justification for killing even more innocent people in response and a way for them to finally act on what they'd intended to do for years.



like you mentioned, it's interesting to see the contrast in how people in the west are reacting to the conflict versus how Israeli citizens themselves feel. many who aren't well-versed about what's happening in the region are confused and caught off guard by the response from Israeli citizens because it clashes with their perception that has been manufactured for years by the war on terror campaign after 9/11.

as a result, part of why I respectfully disagree is because it absolves the responsibility of the regime, one that supported bolstering and transferring money to Hamas to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state. crazy right? Israel's longest-running newspaper highlights that PM Netanyahu supported Hamas to undermine Palestine.


likewise, it doesn't do justice to Israeli citizens, who have been protesting and wanting change for years. from newspapers and opposing politicians to Israel's OWN INTERNAL SECURITY SERVICE, Shin Bet, warning of the inevitable that innocent Israeli citizens will have to pay the price for 75 years of abuse.

thus, this way of thinking prevents progress toward a path that discusses solutions to the conflict. I hope for an end to this bloodshed one day. to get there, it involves addressing the root causes of the conflict and recognizing that what is happening is complex and what has happened over the past week should not be viewed in isolation.

like you mentioned, further bloodshed is inevitable, but why? and no, it isn't just because of what Hamas has done.

violence underpins perpetual occupation and it is necessary in the maintenance of an apartheid state. one man's terrorism is another man's resistance. want to destroy Hamas? go ahead. it won't matter. why? because simply eradicating Hamas fails to address the root causes of the group's ideology.

these kinds of movements cannot be wiped off the map. as long as the occupation exists, there will be others that will continue the mission. it is an IDEOLOGY. want an example? the median age of Gaza's population is 18 years old, 43 percent of which are under the age of 14. the majority of them weren't even ALIVE when there last election was held. they carried on that ideology from a young age because of hatred that they grew up with for those that have been ripping apart their families for the last 75 years.

the more hatred is created, the more instability there will be, and that's more innocent Palestinian AND Israeli lives that will continue to be lost in the future until the conflict is resolved. all of which is on those that have the power to make these changes, the Zionist regime.

so, again, as long as the Zionist regime holds, the ideology of these movements will continue to grow and fester. what replaces Hamas will be… yet another Hamas. it's either proposed one or two state solutions or literal genocide that kills these people off while leading to more innocent deaths of Israelis.

sentiments that like I said, families of victims that were lost in the massacre continue to echo despite what happened to them. if innocent people who have lost loved ones in the attack, are still able to step back and understand that addressing the root causes of the conflict is necessary for an end in sight, that should be very telling to those in the west about how best to approach the conflict.

nonetheless, I appreciate your willingness to want to understand better what is unfolding in the region. regardless of how we feel, I respect your desire to want to learn more.

I will end off by leaving a link echoing my sentiments on the matter by an Israeli journalist, who has done a phenomenal job over the years providing a Jewish commentary about the conflict.

 
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Eegretfrex

Member
Oct 13, 2023
30
As an Israeli citizen I agree with some of your points.

I also hate Netanyahu and the current government.


But all of this is beisdes the point.

This however is the point that the world needs to understand In regards to this "conflict".

The palestinian terorrists are the spiritual heirs of hitler and the nazis.
They want to commit a second Holocaust.
As they have shown last Saturday when they savagely butchered hundreds of defenceless civillians.
Including babies, children and the elderly.
Exactly what the german soldiers did all around Europe (with their local collaborators) in the beginning (before the camps).

By the way the palestinians were literally actual allies of hitler and the nazis and they supported the "final solution".
There is a famous picture of hitler meeting with the mufti who was the leader of the palestinians at the time.
(All of this happened before Israel was established of course in 1948).

But like our Minister of Defence Yoav Galant said, this time it's not 1943, it's 2023 and we do have a military.
 
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Rapière

Rapière

On the brink
Jul 7, 2022
249
All this mess because Hadrian went haywire on the jews neaely 2000 years ago... Maybe history would have turned out much differently if he did not have to witness the passing of his beloved Antinoos.
 
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Eegretfrex

Member
Oct 13, 2023
30
All this mess because Hadrian went haywire on the jews neaely 2000 years ago... Maybe history would have turned out much differently if he did not have to witness the passing of his beloved Antinoos.
Yeah definitely.

Also to blame is Simon bar Kokhba who rallied the local population to a suicidal rebellion against the Romans.
This rebellion was doomed from the beginning.
The Romans had a huge army.

It was like if today Bulgaria would fight the USA or something like that.
 
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M

mimi2161

Member
Feb 12, 2024
22
As an Israeli citizen I agree with some of your points.

I also hate Netanyahu and the current government.


But all of this is beisdes the point.

This however is the point that the world needs to understand In regards to this "conflict".

The palestinian terorrists are the spiritual heirs of hitler and the nazis.
They want to commit a second Holocaust.
As they have shown last Saturday when they savagely butchered hundreds of defenceless civillians.
Including babies, children and the elderly.
Exactly what the german soldiers did all around Europe (with their local collaborators) in the beginning (before the camps).

By the way the palestinians were literally actual allies of hitler and the nazis and they supported the "final solution".
There is a famous picture of hitler meeting with the mufti who was the leader of the palestinians at the time.
(All of this happened before Israel was established of course in 1948).

But like our Minister of Defence Yoav Galant said, this time it's not 1943, it's 2023 and we do have a military.
ironic to be calling the Palestinian "terrorists" spiritual heirs of hitler and the nazis when the creation of the Israeli state was negotiated WITH THE NAZIS during WW2... ur so brainwashed by propaganda its sad. What about the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of defenceless Palestinians during 1948 until now.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
Lmao, Vaush is a degenerate brain-dead horse-fucker
I don't agree with everything he says, but I think he generally has pretty good idea. He's definitely very factual. What specifically do you not like about him?
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Mage
May 5, 2021
530
I don't agree with everything he says, but I think he generally has pretty good idea. He's definitely very factual. What specifically do you not like about him?
He's a pedophile.

 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Mage
May 5, 2021
530
He is? What makes you say that? 😳

Is it this?
Both left-leaning political commentators Ethan Klein and Destiny accused Vaush of being a pedophile. This is not some crazy conspiracy theory, he has lolicon on his computer and he unironically defended CP over and over again.
 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,482
He is? What makes you say that? 😳
I think such ad hominem arguments are distractions. Alan Dershowitz does far worse than anything Vaush's accused of. Flew on the Lolita Express while defending Jeffrey Epstein, tweets about 16 year olds having consensual sex, etc

But when he defends Israel's genocide, more important are the facts. If he's right, he's right; if he's wrong, he's wrong. (Even his plagiarism of a hoax in his book "The Case for Israel" isn't entirely sufficient to undermine his claims. Facts about the present situation still matter)

Anyone see the recent Norman Finkelstein vs Rabbi Shmuley debate? Everyone saw how Shmuley had nothing but character assassinations. Talking about Finkelstein's parents (who were in the concentration camps), etc. In contrast, Finkelstein shrugged it off & focused on the genocide

Despite how bad Shmuley (and Israel's gov't) looked, I think he sent a clear message: they'll attack anyone speaking up. If not by bombs, then character assassination
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Mage
May 5, 2021
530
Alan Dershowitz does far worse

Anyone see the recent Norman Finkelstein vs Rabbi Shmuley debate?
First of all, what does Alan Dershowitz have to do with any of this? I didn't mention or defend him. Also, anyone with a functioning brain can see that it's very unfair to bring a Jewish clown "Rabbi Shmuley" as the legitimate representative of the Israeli side, whereas experienced political scientist Norman Finkelstein is brought to the Palestinian side for the debate.
 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,482
First of all, what does Alan Dershowitz have to do with any of this? I didn't mention or defend him. Also, anyone with a functioning brain can see that it's very unfair to bring a Jewish clown "Rabbi Shmuley" as the legitimate representative of the Israeli side, whereas experienced political scientist Norman Finkelstein is brought to the Palestinian side for the debate.
Yeah, I didn't mention nor defend Vaush either. But even if he ate kids for breakfast, he could still have legitimate points on this topic. Best ignore politically-motivated smears against him & not derail

Ditto with Dershowitz — his substantive points defending Israel need to be addressed, regardless of whatever sexual crimes happened on the Lolita Express

Regarding Rabbi Shmuley, yeah, I agree: let's not stoop to his scare tactics that punish speech & derail from genocide
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
First of all, what does Alan Dershowitz have to do with any of this? I didn't mention or defend him. Also, anyone with a functioning brain can see that it's very unfair to bring a Jewish clown "Rabbi Shmuley" as the legitimate representative of the Israeli side, whereas experienced political scientist Norman Finkelstein is brought to the Palestinian side for the debate.
I think generally speaking Vaush's political commentary is good. I didn't have any idea about the pedophilia remarks and while I think its terrible and gross, I don't think that takes away from his political commentary
I the war is very unfortunate and I'm not taking sides. But I think there are also other issues in the world and in the US that require attention and conversation, too. Again, war is terrible and my heart goes out to the civilians.
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Mage
May 5, 2021
530
Yeah, I didn't mention nor defend Vaush either. But even if he ate kids for breakfast, he could still have legitimate points on this topic. Best ignore politically-motivated smears against him & not derail

Ditto with Dershowitz — his substantive points defending Israel need to be addressed, regardless of whatever sexual crimes happened on the Lolita Express

Regarding Rabbi Shmuley, yeah, I agree: let's not stoop to his scare tactics that punish speech & derail from genocide
Credibility matters.
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Mage
May 5, 2021
530
I think generally speaking Vaush's political commentary is good. I didn't have any idea about the pedophilia remarks and while I think its terrible and gross, I don't think that takes away from his political commentary
I the war is very unfortunate and I'm not taking sides. But I think there are also other issues in the world and in the US that require attention and conversation, too. Again, war is terrible and my heart goes out to the civilians.
I don't know, from what I understand Vaush is an anti-Zionist in regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Not sure if he's as one-sided as Hasan Piker tho.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

I am Skynet
Oct 15, 2023
1,855
I don't know, from what I understand Vaush is an anti-Zionist in regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Not sure if he's as one-sided as Hasan Piker tho.
I honestly don't know enough about his politics or about the Israel-Palestine War to make any meaningful remarks.
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Mage
May 5, 2021
530
Yeah, I didn't mention nor defend Vaush either. But even if he ate kids for breakfast, he could still have legitimate points on this topic. Best ignore politically-motivated smears against him & not derail

Ditto with Dershowitz — his substantive points defending Israel need to be addressed, regardless of whatever sexual crimes happened on the Lolita Express

Regarding Rabbi Shmuley, yeah, I agree: let's not stoop to his scare tactics that punish speech & derail from genocide
Left-leaning political streamer Destiny just released a video debunking Norman Finkelstein:

 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,482
Left-leaning political streamer Destiny just released a video debunking Norman Finkelstein:
He also recently released a video praising Norman Finkelstein!



His own pinned comment advertises this one. This one's far more substantive — South Africa vs Israel on genocide
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Mage
May 5, 2021
530
He also recently released a video praising Norman Finkelstein!



His own pinned comment advertises this one. This one's far more substantive — South Africa vs Israel on genocide

Before he found out that Finkelstein is a fabricator.

View attachment 130540
 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,482
Before he found out that Finkelstein is a fabricator.

We all know this is untrue. Because Destiny's pinned comment — on the video you linked to — advertises his praise for Norman:
SOUTH AFRICA VS ISRAEL! Finkelstein Surprises Destiny w/ Spot On Analysis
► ...

It logically must be posted last — after both videos were made & uploaded
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Mage
May 5, 2021
530
We all know this is untrue. Because Destiny's pinned comment — on the video you linked to — advises his praise for Norman:


It logically must be posted last — after both videos were made & uploaded
The video where Destiny debunks Finkelstein was posted almost a week after the video where he praised him. This comment just directs you to the previous video on Finkelstein's takes.

1709336165601
 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,482
The video where Destiny debunks Finkelstein was posted almost a week after the video where he praised him. This comment just directs you to the previous video on Finkelstein's takes.
Exactly. Glad you agree
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Mage
May 5, 2021
530
Exactly. Glad you agree
I'll be glad to see your response on my new post.

 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,482
You didn't seem to have watched the vid you linked to last time. Because that's a clip taken from it
 
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Adûnâi

Adûnâi

Little Russian in-cel
Apr 25, 2020
1,024
I think it would lead to way too many deaths of civilians if they cut off huge parts of Palestine from their resources. In the longrun this won't stop the terror it would make everything way worse.
A brilliant case of "if you kill your enemy, you lose". Because when all the Nazis were exterminated, it surely meant Hitler's triumph... NOT.

People are endearingly delusional when it comes to politics, it's just amazing. Sure, sure, I admit that we can never have a future-proof strategy for all cases in life - because we're not omniscient, and life is not a solved game - but such glaring illogical things are so commonly seen, it's impressive.

It's like that other case where climate change or war apparently causes migrations to Europe - when it is clear as day that that's not the case, and migrations are caused by open borders (I cannot migrate to Poland right now because the borders are closed).

Apologies for the off-topic, just illustrating a similarly insane case. If the Arabs die, they will lose the ability to kill the Jews. Applies vice versa, too. Genocide is a decent way of stopping bloodshed. That's why a psychopath should be opposed to genocide because it will bring peace and prosperity, and eternal war and suffering are kinda cooler.
new polls in recent days demonstrated that Israelis continue to feel that the blood is also on the hands of the regime, as "86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country's leadership
This is literally the same as blaming Tarran't terror attack in Christchurch on New Zealand's immigration laws. I'm not stirring shit, just saying that sometimes it's PC, other times not PC to say so.

The land belongs to the Jews now, calling it occupation is weird. Are all Americans gonna move out of America because that land once belonged to the Indians? (That would be racist, too, because the Blacks would have to move to Ghana then?)

It's all a mess. And the only right is might. So let them kill each other for the cheers of the audience, lmao. Only the stroooongest will surviiive // Lead me to heeaeaaven when we diiiie ©
The palestinian terorrists are the spiritual heirs of hitler and the nazis.
This is almost as cringe as le Putain calling my modern Ukrainian brethren Nazis.
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,015
Do you guys think that they'll ever be able to coexist in peace?
 
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