The Buddha's first noble truth: Life is Suffering

[xcenteno]

What is the Noble Truth of Suffering? Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering: in short the five categories affected by clinging are suffering. Source.

 

[Pluto]

Yes, it boils down to dissatisfaction with present situations, and unhappiness with change. There is no way out. Except for the rest of the teaching, which is all about the way out.

 

[obafgkm]

Does the readiness to accept suffering and live a minimal life, actually make the world worse and increase suffering? If people dislike their present lives they should fight back, or quit. If slaves all die the masters will have to spin off their own relatives and associates to play the slave roles. They will probably treat them better.

 

[AnnonyBox]

I agree woth the buddhists on the first noble truth, but the agreement ends there. That's the only overlap the buddhists have with pessimists.

 

[whatevs]

I agree woth the buddhists on the first noble truth, but the agreement ends there. That's the only overlap the buddhists have with pessimists.

Does this mean you understand pessimism as not agreeing with being a moral agent that tries not to harm or subjugate others?

 

[Nothingtoadd]

Yes agree with him

 

[Callie Arcale]

If we stop at the first noble truth we miss the whole point Buddha was trying to make.

Yes, there is suffering (dukkha). But suffering ceases. There is a path that leads to suffering, and a path that leads to the cessation of suffering.

The first noble truth means nothing without the other three noble truths. Together the four noble truths are the foundation of Dharma.

 

[Rapière]

Yes, there is suffering (dukkha). But suffering ceases. There is a path that leads to suffering, and a path that leads to the cessation of suffering

I don't think it's possible to escape suffering, except through death. In Zen Buddhism- which I see as a more refined version of buddhism- the goal is to make suffering 2-dimensiol (again) instead of 3-dimensional. In other words when you are experiencing pain you are not supposed to feel an extra layer of pain for being in pain, you just feel the pain momemt for moment like an animal would.

 

[Pluto]

Pain and suffering are not the same thing.

PS. best username ever!

 

[Rapière]

Pain and suffering are not the same thing.

PS. best username ever!

How do they differ in the context of buddhism? I used suffering as merely a broader term for all types of painful sensations, including psychological ones like anxiety, which may feel very different from conventional pain.

 

[Pluto]

According to those who have been through the process, physical pain is still experienced, but is devoid of actual suffering without the resistance, judgements, stories and thoughts about it.

 

[Rapière]

According to those who have been through the process, physical pain is still experienced, but is devoid of actual suffering without the resistance, judgements, stories and thoughts about it.

Aren't you setting yourself up for failure though, by trying to escape suffering?

 

[Shivali]

We all imagine ourself to be a person. But that is the Illusion, a dream, Maya. When the person falls away there can be suffering but no sufferer anymore.

 

[Pluto]

When the person falls away there can be suffering but no sufferer anymore.

That is correct. The important part is that undergoing the awakening process means a lasting shift in identity from person to presence. An intellectual understanding won't achieve this.

Aren't you setting yourself up for failure though, by trying to escape suffering?

Good question.

For those who have gone through the awakening process to an adequate degree, their message is that there is a permanent way out of suffering. From that perspective, the world is not a problem, our life situations are not a problem, and physical pain is not a problem. The false is seen as false, so there's no entity to resisted/fight and hence no suffering.

As for the process (and to directly address the question), there is a middle pathway that must be found. The mentality "I am not the person, therefore I do not need to do anything" will limit progress towards liberation, but the attitude "I am a person who must take action to improve my life" is also perpetuating the false by investing in an entity with problems and solutions. Somehow there's a sweet spot of surrendering to the present moment but also orienting towards the methods that deepen one's sense of presence. I hope this makes some sense.

 

[Rapière]

That is correct. The important part is that undergoing the awakening process means a lasting shift in identity from person to presence. An intellectual understanding won't achieve this.


Good question.

For those who have gone through the awakening process to an adequate degree, their message is that there is a permanent way out of suffering. From that perspective, the world is not a problem, our life situations are not a problem, and physical pain is not a problem. The false is seen as false, so there's no entity to resisted/fight and hence no suffering.

As for the process (and to directly address the question), there is a middle pathway that must be found. The mentality "I am not the person, therefore I do not need to do anything" will limit progress towards liberation, but the attitude "I am a person who must take action to improve my life" is also perpetuating the false by investing in an entity with problems and solutions. Somehow there's a sweet spot of surrendering to the present moment but also orienting towards the methods that deepen one's sense of presence. I hope this makes some sense.

Yes, I get what you're saying. There seems to be a disagreemt among buddhists about wether or not humans can achieve a higher state of liberation than animals. Where do you stand on this issue?

 

[Pluto]

Yes, I get what you're saying. There seems to be a disagreemt among buddhists about wether or not humans can achieve a higher state of liberation than animals. Where do you stand on this issue?

In the Advaita Vedanta world, the only two beings who were officially declared as fully liberated by Ramana Maharshi were his mother and Lakshmi the cow. So in this context, being human or animal makes no difference... perhaps because humans are animals. We share 90% of our DNA with cats. :)

The best advice I can give is to focus on the perspective of fully realised beings. Scholars will get lost in debates which are of no real value. The perspective of the sages is along the lines of "you are already in the highest state, you just can't feel it because you are identified with your mind." This message needs to be understood as an invitation to undergo a transformation in identity.

Hence the oneness doesn't need to be achieved, but we merely need to see the falseness of the human identity for what it is. That's ultimately what this whole game is about.

 

[Rapière]

Hence the oneness doesn't need to be achieved, but we merely need to see the falseness of the human identity for what it is. That's ultimately what this whole game is about.

Thats what I was getting at with my question. The idea of the self is an abstraction that seperates us from the "Oneness", the "Dao", or whichever term you prefer. Animals are incapable of abstract thinking and therefore already in a liberated state by default.

 

[Shivali]

There is no YOU that could improve or achieve enlightement. There are no animals, no world, no universe. Thats happening all within the dream. In fact there is nothing more real than nothing. So Ariane Reflects, Jim Newmann, Tim Cliss and other nonduality speakers (on youtube). I really love listening their message

 

[Rapière]

There is no YOU that could improve or achieve enlightement. There are no animals, no world, no universe. Thats happening View attachment 95101all within the dream. In fact there is nothing more real than nothing. So Ariane Reflects, Jim Newmann, Tim Cliss and other nonduality speakers (on youtube). I really love listening their message

"We are such stuff
As dreams are made of, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep" -Shakespeare

 

[Shivali]

"Wir sind solche Sachen
Wie Träume gemacht sind, und unser kleines Leben
Ist abgerundet mit einem Schlaf" -Shakespeare

Beautyful

 

[Pluto]

Animals are incapable of abstract thinking and therefore already in a liberated state by default.

In his book A New Earth, Eckhart Tolle argues that thinking is an evolutionary stage. Just as human ancestors (monkeys, early mammals, fish, etc.) were incapable of thought, the next stage of evolution is progressing beyond the identification with thought. While animals are often venerated for the simple beauty of their integrity and their limited egos, they are rarely capable of the most advanced state of Buddhahood.

And yes, everything you see or think is merely an appearance in front of you. To truly get this is a shortcut.

Key takeaway: no effort is needed to be the Self, but practical effort is generally needed to discard the illusion in your experience. The conditioned mind is a master seductress striving to maintain the ego. The ego death process tends to involve learning to pass through a barrier of intense fear without resistance; this is a common theme in awakening reports.

 

[8evergo]

i like the philosophy of Buddha and Pir Rumi

 

[GentleJerk]

Buddhas and bodhisattvas: Samsaric existence is cyclic, and contingent upon the accumulation of karma and attachment throughout countless lifetimes...

Like 90% of SS: I want to die lol, YOLO.

 

[Meaninglessness]

Due to the high life expectancy, human life consists of short-lived pleasures and years or decades of meaningless suffering.

 

[hemlock_gal]

Does the readiness to accept suffering and live a minimal life, actually make the world worse and increase suffering? If people dislike their present lives they should fight back, or quit. If slaves all die the masters will have to spin off their own relatives and associates to play the slave roles. They will probably treat them better.

Not anymore, Science now has the ability to create new humans with any genetic material in EctoLife artificial wombs.

 

[sserafim]

What is the Noble Truth of Suffering? Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering: in short the five categories affected by clinging are suffering. Source.

Why must there be suffering though? Why can't life just be all sunshine and rainbows?

 

[real human being]

My problem with Buddhism is that it presents life as a net negative, and then it gives instructions on how to escape the naturally negative state of existence through practice that aims to 'enlighten' an individual and free them from suffering, but if freedom from suffering is the end goal, why not just commit suicide? Isn't that an easier and much faster path to free oneself from suffering?

Now, if we are talking about a denomination of Buddhism that believes in reincarnation, and that achieving enlightenment is the only way to break the cycle of reincarnation, then that solves the problem, but then Buddhism becomes less of a philosophical system and more of a religion in the style of Christianity which also instructs you to live life in a certain way in order to avoid eternal suffering (hell), though Christianity also makes use of eternal pleasure (heaven) as an incentive.

It's important to note that Buddhism varies a lot from denomination to denomination and there are schools of Buddhism (Zen in particular) where the goal is not to escape Samsara and suffering, but to be in tune with the world and the present moment. That makes a lot more sense to me personally.

 

[Abandoned Character]

Why must there be suffering though? Why can't life just be all sunshine and rainbows?

Sunshine and rainbows, from the perspective of a cold, unfeeling universe, are indistinguishable from torture and murder. Suffering comes from the quality of being alive. Even farmed salmon will swim away from waters that are too hot.

Maybe you asked this rhetorically, and in that case I can empathize. Why me? Why must I be experiencing this?

 

[LONE WOLF.]

In the Advaita Vedanta world, the only two beings who were officially declared as fully liberated by Ramana Maharshi were his mother and Lakshmi the cow. So in this context, being human or animal makes no difference... perhaps because humans are animals. We share 90% of our DNA with cats. :)

The best advice I can give is to focus on the perspective of fully realised beings. Scholars will get lost in debates which are of no real value. The perspective of the sages is along the lines of "you are already in the highest state, you just can't feel it because you are identified with your mind." This message needs to be understood as an invitation to undergo a transformation in identity.

Hence the oneness doesn't need to be achieved, but we merely need to see the falseness of the human identity for what it is. That's ultimately what this whole game is about.

Please Pluto, No more 'My brain is melting'

 

[real person]

buddha was spitting