The Duality of Yin & Yang: Bad is Good and Good is Bad?

[Pluto]

Warning: this topic may be triggering or destabilising for some people.


Yin & Yang
Yin & Yang is a familiar symbol representing the concept of interconnected opposites in Taoism and other ancient Chinese philosophies. These interconnected opposites include feminine/masculine, birth/death, pleasure/pain, light/dark, etc. which we all know and love/hate.

The tragedy of the human condition boils down to our vain attempts to extract the good aspects and reject the bad, as if trying to keep only one side of a single coin. The futility of this is similarly expressed in Buddhist philosophy with the famous first noble truth, that suffering is an innate characteristic of all human life.

There are many very practical ways in which this plays out. People chase worldly goals, only to either fail, or else succeed only to have the novelty wear off, or the thing in question proves temporary. Death is the consistent theme; "All things vanish [into the Tao] and it alone endures."

Putting aside the subjectivity of labelling events as good/bad, we can see obvious historical examples. World War II was 'bad', yet ushered in the era of jet-powered aeroplanes and rockets that would put man on the moon. Nuclear power went from destroying cities to powering them. And yet, the era of relative peace and population growth led directly to new ecological catastrophes.

While people and their opinions come and go, what remains is basic underlying principles such as, "Life is one damn thing after another."

Nonduality

With the problem of life - suffering, death, etc. - well defined as an innate quality of this dualistic reality, the solution of nonduality emerges. Talking about this gets infinitely messy, fast. Nonduality already implies that there is no problem and no solution, nor is there a duality-nonduality duality. Put simply, the mind is no longer a relevant tool if we are to proceed. The goal is not to understand anything.

The seers of Eastern philosophy were aware of the timeless nature of life long before Einstein declared that time is an illusion. More importantly, they knew to question our sense of self. The sense of self is the centre of the human experience, including all of its trouble, yet there are few settings where it is socially acceptable to question our core beliefs about ourselves, despite it obviously being a product of accumulating ideas since childhood.

From this perspective, the 'death' of the psychological ego-self is merely the recognition that it was never real in the first place. Nothing else needs to change. Waking from a bad dream does not require addressing any grievances of the character, nor even causing its death as such. Important note: this is not a self-help psychological trick nor a religious belief system, but a very real shift in identity which radically changes the experience of everyday living.

(Just to touch on it briefly. Killing the physical body is neither here nor there in this context. We all know it is necessary under some circumstances, but the issue of needing to discard a false identity remains either way. It doesn't matter if you are reading this in a human body or as a ghost.)

In a way, the shift needed to overcome the problem of duality is indescribable within the framework of the dream. Hence, language is used almost artistically to try and trigger one's own inner sense of knowing what is already true. Even to call duality a problem treats it as if it were real. It is easy to reinforce the belief in ourselves as individual protagonists struggling to navigate a dualistic world, rather than a timeless consciousness that is merely aware of sense perceptions in the immediate present.

Back Down to Earth

Many obvious questions that arise regarding this topic. Is it real? Can the shift happen for me? Are everyday people actually going through this "die before you die" thing? How to go about it? Is it even desirable? What would become of me and my life?

Many of you will have had a taste of advanced states of consciousness. Some psychedelic experiences tap into it. It can be experienced through near-death or spontaneous spiritually transformative experiences. Sometimes a deep state of meditation is a catalyst. The most practical methods are self-inquiry and time with someone who is already in the nondual state. It will happen for everyone, and you will then realised that it was never not the case.

At this point, attention needs to turn towards proper teachers. What's fascinating right now is that they seem to be emerging everywhere. Direct teachings which can potentially trigger a spiritual awakening are available en masse on YouTube. There's an active Reddit community. Since each liberated person can potentially liberate many others, it may be the beginnings of a radical shift for humanity, but more importantly will end the suffering of each individual who goes through it.

At a personal level, I notice that this is happening right at a time when the suffering-laden story of my human form is at a stage where there's no rational reason to push on. Except maybe this. I follow a physician who is routinely interviewing people who have been through, and are going through a spiritual awakening. The ultimate outcome is the same, but it is well worth having this message available and to encourage discussion for anyone who is interested. I believe there is no higher purpose in life.

 

[Shivali]

Are you listening to nondual speakers?

 

[whatevs]

I would love to experience my timeless entity side, but I'm experiencing my needy and fragile mortal side. Have you experienced any of the sort?

 

[Pluto]

Are you listening to nondual speakers?

Yes. It's extremely repetitive with the effect of gradually loosening our existing conditioning. "You are not the body/mind," "You are consciousness," "Enquire who you are in the immediate present," etc. The message might be truly heard on the ten thousandth repeat and a profound revelation will result.

There's more to it than that, since even a kensho awakening is only the beginning of a longer process of integration, but I'm simplifying.

I would love to experience my timeless entity side, but I'm experiencing my needy and fragile mortal side. Have you experienced any of the sort?

I hear you. For me the process has been extremely slow but it is very helpful to have a space to talk about it, since much of normal human interaction assumes body identification and perpetuates the false. I am seriously considering one-on-one time with a teacher for the first time, though want to be in a reasonable headspace first.

To anyone with a very deep openness to this, and are willing to question your entire sense of self and delve into the unknown, a direct guidance would go along these lines:

The timeless Self is already present, you are already experiencing it and it is your true nature. It is not a seeker as it merely observes whatever is happening with detachment. It is not really an entity; it is more the absence of an entity; the entity dies and yet you find yourself unaffected since it was merely a false idea. The true Self is the backlight of all experience but tends to be overlooked since our attention is always turned outward to external objects. We look everywhere except our own true nature, at least until we've had enough of suffering.

To expose the false self, consider that it consists entirely of thoughts. Where were these ideas of having a particular life story, ambitions and grievances in very early childhood? Where are they when in the dream state or deep sleep? If they were erased, who would you be without them?

Many thoughts will come to distract you. "This is all pretty weird." "Yes, but I still don't get it." "OK, but what do I do now?" "Surely I could not live my life without a self." "This sounds interesting, I might read up on it later." All are fraudulent, but the mental voice who is posing as a skeptic (that is, when it's not blatantly torturing us) must be looked at directly. As it consists of software in the brain rather than an actual person, it is ultimately nothing, it is referencing nobody and it is speaking to no one. It takes ongoing effort and willingness, but seeing this clearly through direct experience leads to the enlightenment that everyone is seeking.

 

[Pluto]

A couple of random updates for this topic. I realise that it took me so long to get around to making this thread that the result ended up a messy mix of two distinct topics - interconnected opposites and hardcore nonduality. Two topics that just happen to be one. The Yin & Yang concept has all sorts of interesting implications.

The English language features more words and a richer vocabulary for describing negative events than positive ones. Many entire genres of music (blues, metal) are based on celebrating negative emotions. Every movie plot needs to include things going wrong in order to be satisfying, and likewise for real-life stories. Proper social bonding necessitates going through disagreements. Even this website proves that beautifully heartfelt connections can emerge as a result of sharing in despair. So there's a good side to bad, and a bad side to good, united in a cosmic oneness.

But since I already opened the Pandora's box of nonduality, which moves away from solid philosophy and into a crazy land of paradoxes, I have a bit more to share there, too.

A couple of nights ago I woke up in the middle of the night and found myself possibly having a spiritual experience. I remember it was very intense and uncomfortable in the body. I thought it might have been kundalini, or the pre-awakening 'fear barrier' often talked about. I did my best to fully surrender to the experience to pass through it. I felt better afterwards but nothing radical. Unfortunately, when I woke up the next day, I still had the same perception of reality and the same sense of being an individual person. Damn.

That leads to a few pertinent points for anyone curious about this topic. The first is that even though the goal of spiritual awakening is the end of suffering, the actual process can involve intense discomfort and wild instability, since what is dying is a sense of self we are all deeply attached to. This is not for the faint-hearted. Even after awakening, a long proceed of integration is needed.

The next point is that people sometimes need an extraordinary mixture of serendipity and dedication to actually achieve awakening. I was listening to a fascinating interview with a nondual teacher named Lisa Cairns, who described the events leading up to her big awakening event. It entailed travelling the world, intense meditation retreats, time with teachers and heavy psychological research.

One of the teachers she saw was Tony Parsons, who is known for a very direct teaching style. (The whole 'there's nobody inside this body, there's nothing to understand, etc.' type of thing.) She once went to see him while simultaneously high on LSD! It would be easy to conclude that an element of luck and extreme dedication is needed. And yet, since others have at least partly awakened under all sorts of other circumstances, there's absolutely no telling how close someone is to a breakthrough. Anyone with an interest in the topic is advised to pursue it.

Another interesting topic raised was suicide. Cairns said that she has moved away from the very direct teaching style because she found that, for example saying, "Everything is meaningless", was being interpreted by suicidal people as a reason to CTB. Another danger is that people can attempt to use spirituality to bypass having to work on processing traumas. For me, perhaps that's a case of 'I resemble that remark.'

Yet another teacher from Australia said that being suicidal actually helped her awaken, since in that state she was more than happy to let go of the ego and have it die. Either way, the process of seeking the ultimate reality will go on even after a particular body has been discarded for whatever reason. Only the Tao endures.

 

[Shivali]

Ich liebe Tony Parsons, Lisa Cairns, Tim Cliss und einige deutsche Nondualitätssprecher, da meine Muttersprache Deutsch und mein Englisch nicht so gut ist.
Das Konzept ist so simpel und doch vom menschlichen Verstand nicht zu erfassen. Manchmal wird es gehört, es entsteht eine Art Resonanz und diese pulverisiert alles wurde zuvor für real gehalten wurde.
Es gibt keine Worte um Unbeschreibliches zu beschreiben ...

 

[Forever Sleep]

This is all really fascinating. I guess I can see the appeal in getting rid of all this thinking and judgement. Being asleep is such a release because I am at most- just experiencing emotions in a dream state rather than worrying and annalysing everything. I feel anxious in nightmares but It's still not like waking life.

I'm SO fascinated as to where our consciousness goes during sleep. Do you suppose it is connected to our brains just processing our senses? Someone linked a fascinating article the other day suggesting that consciousness/self awareness may actually be just a by product of how our brains work! Lol. Seems kind of funny. We place so much value on our individuality.

I guess I'm curious- wouldn't stripping back this ego make us more like animals? (I know we are animals- but- you know what I mean.) They seem far better at just accepting life- good and bad- they just react to it. Not to say they don't show emotion but I wonder if they ever contemplate how 'fair' or rather- 'unfair' life is.

I suppose I'm just curious as to what the benefit is though. Being calmer- certainly. I guess it would be awesome if- in our true state we were some kind of pure non judgemental spirit, connected to everything else. How does this help us in this day and age though? Where we have to work and deal with everyday chores? I suppose we would put up less resistance to it. I don't know- I expect I'm just missing the point really. It's so difficult imagining not being yourself anymore. Would we even relate to one another if we managed to banish our ego's?

 

[Pluto]

Das Konzept ist so simpel und doch vom menschlichen Verstand nicht zu erfassen. Manchmal wird es gehört, es entsteht eine Art Resonanz und diese pulverisiert alles wurde zuvor für real gehalten wurde.

This is beautifully said. It starts as a fascinating and radical alternative viewpoint of life - whether it be associated with Eastern philosophy or some sort of psychonautics - then it frustrates the mind which cannot quite 'get' it. But for those who go through the process, what happens is not the mind understanding anything, but the mind being exposed as a false entity. I like to use the analogy of crossing a bridge, but you find that there's no one there anymore when you get to the other side.

I guess I can see the appeal in getting rid of all this thinking and judgement.

@Forever Sleep So many great questions here! For the purposes of direct pointing, language gets used in an atypical way to point beyond what words are normally intended to convey (that is, physical objects, narratives and ideas). From that perspective, the goal is not getting rid of thinking, but exposing the fact that the actual entity of the thinker is not you.

One of Eckhart Tolle's first exercises in the Power of Now is what he calls 'watching the thinker'. It involves watching your thoughts as an uninvolved witness. What will the next thought be? This breaks the identification with thoughts. Reduced mental activity will certainly be a side-effect, though it also arouses curiosity regarding who we are aside from the entity that is always struggling with life.

I'm SO fascinated as to where our consciousness goes during sleep.

Sleep is talked about a lot in the Advaita tradition. According to Advaita philosophy, in order to count as 'real', something needs to be omnipresent and it must shine by its own light. Only the formless Self (a.k.a. the Buddhist no-self, the Tao, God-self, pure consciousness, etc.) meets this criteria.

The same way that we awaken from a dream and realise that none of it was real, spiritual awakening involves exposing the normal waking state as fictional. Only then can it be enjoyable since fear is eliminated.

Even though we think of deep sleep as a state of unconsciousness, upon waking up we have a rough sense of having had time pass in slumber. Ramana Maharshi argued that the sense of contentment in deep sleep - a state with no content - is proof that happiness is inherent in people. But while deep sleep is closer to our natural state, the true Self is often referred to as the fourth state - beyond the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep - as it is present throughout all, yet beyond all of them.

[W]ouldn't stripping back this ego make us more like animals?

Yes, but this can make it sound undesirable to the mind. Eckhart Tolle talks about how ducks swim serenely. Even when two ducks get into a fight, it lasts a short time and peacefulness immediately resumes afterwards. He has also referred to cats as Zen masters.

This contrasts with unenlightened humans who are full of narratives, identities, ideas and resentment. Our psychological sense of time gives rise to both regrets as well as wishing to restore desirable aspects of the past. The future is associated with both anxieties and desires. All of this superfluous drama obscures and distorts the only true reality of the present. This is the true cause of the 'something's not right' feeling that is common to much of humanity, including materially successful people.

Implicit in this is the notion that the superhuman intelligence of the universe operates optimally when not interfered with. People in that surrendered state talk about trusting life and everything happening spontaneously. For example, teachers in that state do not prepare notes for their talks.

It's so difficult imagining not being yourself anymore. Would we even relate to one another if we managed to banish our ego's?

Another great question. This is the point where the mind gets frustrated because it is only able to partly conceptualise the mind-free state. If anything, the idea can sound intimidating or undesirable. But this is analogous to an abusive spouse telling you how much worse off you'd be without him.

One argument is that nobody who has gone through awakening has ever regretted it. Another is that it is a state that enables the present moment to be enjoyed; in the Zen tradition, even chores are treated as meditation. In the normal Western mindset, people spend their whole lives waiting for the next thing; for the work day to finish, for the drive home to be done, for dinner to be cooked, for the chores to be done, etc. Or for the next holiday, the next major life event, etc. Eckhart calls it a 'mad way to live'.

The other point is that an intuition arises which guides everything perfectly. A good example comes from Advaita teacher Papaji; he was going on his usual morning walk with a friend one day when he suddenly changed direction. The friend asked where they were going and Papaji replied that he did not know. At some point, they came across a man who was perfectly ripe for Self-realisation. Papaji had a brief interaction, the man had an awakening, then it was all over and the original walk resumed.

As for relating to one another, this is a state of absolute intimacy. It can entail directly feeling what others are feeling, and being completely focused and present with them in an interaction. If anything, we are not actually interacting with each other when functioning via our conditioned minds driven by desires and fears.

If you've ever experienced any tastes of any of these things, including in childhood - intuitiveness, crazy coincidences, presence, intimacy, wonderment, uncaused joy - there is a reminder that all of this is already here behind the clouds of ego. Yet somehow the paradoxical game is set up that we have to work at removing obstacles to experience being what we already are.

A bit more on this topic from Ramana Maharshi scholar David Godman.

 

[Forever Sleep]

This is beautifully said. It starts as a fascinating and radical alternative viewpoint of life - whether it be associated with Eastern philosophy or some sort of psychonautics - then it frustrates the mind which cannot quite 'get' it. But for those who go through the process, what happens is not the mind understanding anything, but the mind being exposed as a false entity. I like to use the analogy of crossing a bridge, but you find that there's no one there anymore when you get to the other side.

I guess I can see the appeal in getting rid of all this thinking and judgement.

@Forever Sleep So many great questions here! For the purposes of direct pointing, language gets used in an atypical way to point beyond what words are normally intended to convey (that is, physical objects, narratives and ideas). From that perspective, the goal is not getting rid of thinking, but exposing the fact that the actual entity of the thinker is not you.

One of Eckhart Tolle's first exercises in the Power of Now is what he calls 'watching the thinker'. It involves watching your thoughts as an uninvolved witness. What will the next thought be? This breaks the identification with thoughts. Reduced mental activity will certainly be a side-effect, though it also arouses curiosity regarding who we are aside from the entity that is always struggling with life.

I'm SO fascinated as to where our consciousness goes during sleep.

Sleep is talked about a lot in the Advaita tradition. According to Advaita philosophy, in order to count as 'real', something needs to be omnipresent and it must shine by its own light. Only the formless Self (a.k.a. the Buddhist no-self, the Tao, God-self, pure consciousness, etc.) meets this criteria.

The same way that we awaken from a dream and realise that none of it was real, spiritual awakening involves exposing the normal waking state as fictional. Only then can it be enjoyable since fear is eliminated.

Even though we think of deep sleep as a state of unconsciousness, upon waking up we have a rough sense of having had time pass in slumber. Ramana Maharshi argued that the sense of contentment in deep sleep - a state with no content - is proof that happiness is inherent in people. But while deep sleep is closer to our natural state, the true Self is often referred to as the fourth state - beyond the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep - as it is present throughout all, yet beyond all of them.

[W]ouldn't stripping back this ego make us more like animals?

Yes, but this can make it sound undesirable to the mind. Eckhart Tolle talks about how ducks swim serenely. Even when two ducks get into a fight, it lasts a short time and peacefulness immediately resumes afterwards. He has also referred to cats as Zen masters.

This contrasts with unenlightened humans who are full of narratives, identities, ideas and resentment. Our psychological sense of time gives rise to both regrets as well as wishing to restore desirable aspects of the past. The future is associated with both anxieties and desires. All of this superfluous drama obscures and distorts the only true reality of the present. This is the true cause of the 'something's not right' feeling that is common to much of humanity, including materially successful people.

Implicit in this is the notion that the superhuman intelligence of the universe operates optimally when not interfered with. People in that surrendered state talk about trusting life and everything happening spontaneously. For example, teachers in that state do not prepare notes for their talks.

It's so difficult imagining not being yourself anymore. Would we even relate to one another if we managed to banish our ego's?

Another great question. This is the point where the mind gets frustrated because it is only able to partly conceptualise the mind-free state. If anything, the idea can sound intimidating or undesirable. But this is analogous to an abusive spouse telling you how much worse off you'd be without him.

One argument is that nobody who has gone through awakening has ever regretted it. Another is that it is a state that enables the present moment to be enjoyed; in the Zen tradition, even chores are treated as meditation. In the normal Western mindset, people spend their whole lives waiting for the next thing; for the work day to finish, for the drive home to be done, for dinner to be cooked, for the chores to be done, etc. Or for the next holiday, the next major life event, etc. Eckhart calls it a 'mad way to live'.

The other point is that an intuition arises which guides everything perfectly. A good example comes from Advaita teacher Papaji; he was going on his usual morning walk with a friend one day when he suddenly changed direction. The friend asked where they were going and Papaji replied that he did not know. At some point, they came across a man who was perfectly ripe for Self-realisation. Papaji had a brief interaction, the man had an awakening, then it was all over and the original walk resumed.

As for relating to one another, this is a state of absolute intimacy. It can entail directly feeling what others are feeling, and being completely focused and present with them in an interaction. If anything, we are not actually interacting with each other when functioning via our conditioned minds driven by desires and fears.

If you've ever experienced any tastes of any of these things, including in childhood - intuitiveness, crazy coincidences, presence, intimacy, wonderment, uncaused joy - there is a reminder that all of this is already here behind the clouds of ego. Yet somehow the paradoxical game is set up that we have to work at removing obstacles to experience being what we already are.

Wow, I love this- you're so knowledgable.

Actually, I did read 'The Power of Now' years ago. I think it did help me at the time. Ought to read it again really...

Of course you're right- how can we even imagine perceiving the world in a different way? You know what blew my mind recently? That animals perceive time differently than we do! I knew they perceived colour differently- but time?!! It apparently goes faster for cats and slower for dogs. Cold blooded animals perceive time according to what temperature they are! Crazy huh?!! Makes you realise just how limited we are.

Yes, I can well believe it's just a totally different way of perceiving the world that my rather stubborn and limited mind won't accept. That said, I've always felt like being creative was meditative for me. Flow state I think they call it- you are just so in-tune with what you're doing, you lose yourself. Shame I can't reach that state doing things I hate- like housework.

 

[Pluto]

I always had a suspicion that flies experience time at a different pace; one species has a whole lifetime that lasts barely longer than 24 hours. Einstein said that people perceive time differently, depending on what is happening, too. It is a good entry point into this topic.

I used to know a guy who listened to the Power of Now audiobook on non-stop repeat every day while commuting. After some months, he had a sudden spiritual experience one day. These days, there is abundant YouTube content, too. This topic has never been more accessible in history, and just might change the world. And yet, this content is not about learning something but ripening oneself for liberation.

Creativity can be a great way of connecting to the superconscious. But often artists suffer a lot in their lives because they are accessing divine intelligence through their work, but not in other aspects of their life. Fortunately, it need not be so.

 

[Pluto]

I had the idea of making this thread into a journal of sorts. Perhaps even a Snake of Eden-style descent into spiritual rambling mumbo-jumbo. Hopefully no one minds. All replies of all types are very welcome, or else tolerating (and perhaps being entertained by) my unhinged monologue here on this quiet corner of the forum.

I had an interesting experience yesterday while driving. I had decided to revisit the video I found linked on the aforementioned Reddit nondual site which had introduced me to Angelo Dilullo for the first time. He is a middle-aged anesthesiologist from Colorado who achieved awakening some 25 years ago while exploring spirituality in response to deep anxiety issues.

Dilullo has since explored the much deeper nuances and stages of the process and helped countless others to awaken, as well as avoid many pitfalls of the journey. His combination of plain English and punchy teachings has proven dynamite. For people who have found Eckhart Tolle a gateway to this topic, direct teachers like this can help to bring about the permanent experiential transformation that everyone on this path is seeking. I was debating whether to share the video in question or its predecessor. In fact, there's a whole series. I will link the particular video I speak of at the end of this message.

Anyway, I had it playing while I was driving yesterday, and at one point something started to happen. I could still hear the yammering back and forth of the two voices over the radio, but I was going to a different place. I was startled; something was taking over and I was losing control.

As once happened years ago when I was with Australian teacher Sailor Bob, and possibly again several days ago when I awoke in the middle of the night, this experience concluded anticlimactically. In this case, I had to consider that being in control when driving at 100 km/h sounds like a good plan. However, it also struck me that being so deeply suicidal at the psychological level is a huge blessing. When the sense of existential panic comes, I have almost zero survival instinct. (Yes, SI is a thing with ego death, too.) If anything, I wholeheartedly invite death like the lunatic that I am. I'm ready to double down on this as the only thing that matters.



The next step right now seems to be limiting usage of electronic devices and delving more deeply into this material. It is like another reality, always unnoticed in the background, atop which the familiar human experience of the waking state is superimposed. Anything that activates the ego, including being addressed as a person in any capacity, works contrary to going more deeply within and revealing that underlying reality.

This is not for the faint-hearted. It is a progressive demolition of our human identity at every level. Regarding a recent abandonment by an old friend, I was thinking earlier that I could so easily make a new thread in the suicide forum ranting about how I don't matter, people I trusted ripped me off and left me to die on countless occasions, I dread the possibility of living like this any longer, etc.

I remain very aware of all that suffering, both as uncomfortable emotions and sensations in the body and also as a very black storyline. But simultaneously, I am also aware that I don't know if any of my story is true, nor who the person is at the centre of the drama. I don't know if the past happened, what time is, or what other people are. My identity is no longer solid, more like jelly that wobbles dangerously when prodded. Even proof-reading this now, I am getting waves of 'holy crap!' washing over me. Bring it on.

It reminds me of something Eckhart Tolle once said. A woman came to him after reading his book and remarked, "I don't know who I am anymore." He simply replied, "Congratulations!"

 

[Shivali]

Ich mag wirklich die Intensität deiner Auseinandersetzung mit diesem Thema. Die verzweifelt - interessierte Suche nach dem persönlichen spirituellem Erwachen. Es muss doch irgendeinen Weg geben, um dieses Ziel zu erreichen!?

Doch die radikalen Nondualität Sprecher sagen das da GAR KEINER ist, der irgendetwas erreichen könnte.
Wir gehen irrtümlich davon aus das wir existieren. Als Körper, Geist und Seele, ausgestattet mit einem freien Willen.

Wenn aber unsere Existenz nun Teil des Traumes ist, den niemand träumt, dann können wir gar nichts tun, schlichtweg, weil es uns nicht gibt ... hoffnungslos und lustig irgendwie

 

[rationaltake]

Pluto. Your posts make a real difference to me. Thank you. I'm beyond most things now. I would like to be in a good frame of mind for death. You mentioned this to me before. I have had spiritual experiences in the past.

 

[Pluto]

@rationaltake Forgive me if you've already covered this - one side-effect of what I'm doing is my memory can be atrocious. But could I ask about your past experience/s and the circumstances around them?

@Shivali What the radical teachers say is ultimately true (there is no one to do anything, there is no one to realise the Self, nothing can be done, etc.), and the message can help trigger an awakening if it is received in an advanced state. But it is often counterproductive for various reasons.

In practice, most people who have an awakening story go through various stages. They try to live normally but feel like something is missing; some have everything they could want (careers, relationships, etc.) but still feel unsatisfied, while others might be total disaster stories. They may have some unexpected spiritual experience early in life. They often experiment with psychedelics but find the expansive experience doesn't last. They read books, go to meditation retreats and spend time with teachers, often having temporary experiences.

They do Byron Katie-style emotion work and self-inquiry. Still no awakening. Then one day, at an unexpected time, a profound eruption of blissful transcendence and universal consciousness happens spontaneously. Some of those awakened people then go around saying that there never was an individual self, no effort needs to be made and we are already all enlightened! Which is technically true. People often talk of the great 'cosmic joke'; there is a funny side to it, for sure.

 

[rationaltake]

@rationaltake Forgive me if you've already covered this - one side-effect of what I'm doing is my memory can be atrocious. But could I ask about your past experience/s and the cicumstances around them?

No worries and it's not down to your memory. I haven't gone into this before on the forum.

You give a lot to this forum and do your best to help people.

I remember you mentioning your aunt who has bipolar and the difficulties this caused.

You see I have a lot of mental health conditions including bipolar and dissociative identity disorder. I've been superficially viable at times but things have always collapsed again. Now I'm really non-functioning and I've reached the end.

I used to think my spirirual experiences were "divine madness". I'm reluctant to say this as I know people with dissociation and bipolar suffer catastrophically - as I have myself.

Full-on high was extreme chaos and ended in burn-out and a corresponding low. After being in bed for three years with an extreme low I switched high one day and jumped out of bed. I realised (remembered?) I was manic-depressive and then I watched a documentary on TV featuring an actor/comedian with bipolar. Stephen Fry.

I have never taken any medication. I felt I couldn't totally suppress the bipolar. I thought the best way to control the cycle was to limit the high - avoid going sky-high - and live on the lower slopes of high. I won't go into this part too much as this isn't a thread about bipolar.

Living on the lower slopes of high was incredible. I was blissful, I felt the heartbeat of the universe, I had another sense where I could "see" energy, everything was rhythm. This doesn't do it justice and this was everyday life. It lasted for a few years.

I can still tap into an echo of it.

Years ago, long before this, I learnt to meditate by concentrating on the heart-beat. I once had an out-of-the body experience while doing this. It resembled dissociation in that I was looking down on the body but I was incredibly aware.

Going back to this time of limiting the high. I then learnt some Buddhist meditation techniques. Meditating on the breath. Observing thoughts. This instilled a non-everything feeling. I also exercised compassion in dealing with others. I learnt to sit in half-lotus. I'd always had a vision of myself doing that. I was aware of Chakras.

I don't know how comprehensible any of this account is.

This is just a taste of it. But now I'm debased and all is done really.

 

[DeSade]

Meh. I'm not entirely sure as to what OP is referring to exactly as it sounds more so like new age mumbo jumbo, however, I can assure you that what you are describing isn't non-dualism according to its proper definition nor in its proper sense. What you are describing sounds more like DMT trip or something like that.

Non-dualism is the fundamental principle of ancient philosophy and religion before the advent of Christianity came to dominate the Western consciousness and understanding of true spirituality. Dualism, on the contrary, was coined by Descartes and is the belief that the corporeal body (yin) and spiritual mind/soul (yang) are distinct entities that function independent of each other. Whilst non-dualism is the belief that whilst the body and mind are distinct entities, they are nevertheless interdependent on each other and, in a certain sense, can't function independently from one another. I hope that clarifies it.

"As above, so below."

 

[Pluto]

This is just a taste of it. But now I'm debased and all is done really.

Thank you very much for sharing for this. I have heard many accounts of bipolar highs leading people to have profound and genuine insights into the nature of reality. I once even heard someone say that it was possibly worth paying the price of all the horrible suffering of the low states.

It is also common for people who have awakening experiences - which can potentially happen to anyone, not only people who follow a practice - to be sent to mental hospitals and misdiagnosed. It's easy to see how this happens, since people in that state initially struggle with functioning in some cases, and much of society has no idea whatsoever about this subject matter.

Whenever there is a temporary transcendent experience, the mind tends to turn it into an historical event in time that occurred to a 'me' that subsequently hopes to get it back in the future. It's a devious trick, since the true starting point for directly investigating reality is always the immediate present, without identifying with thoughts and without feeding the sense of 'I'.

Clearly, the only alternative to the immediate present is being immersed in thoughts about past and future, which is itself all happening in the now. Yet in its rawness, the present moment is a potentially uncomfortable and mysterious Wild West of unfiltered sense perceptions. There's no reference point without the noisy mind's normal sense of supposedly knowing what's what. No doubt this uncomfortableness is why we all tend to avoid it, only to miss out on delving deeper to ultimately see reality as it really is.

The subtle point is that the sense of a 'me who wants to feel better and is open-minded to this spiritual stuff' has to start off the exploration of advanced states of consciousness, then quickly becomes a hindrance which itself needs to be discarded like a rocket stage. Ramana Maharshi used the analogy of the stick used for stirring the burning pyre that is then itself thrown into the fire.

The question of preparing for physical death has always interested me, too. I've concluded that it is best to have the ego as translucent as possible, even if fully-fledged ego death is not attained in this lifetime. I'm assured by teachers that any effort made is worthwhile in the bigger picture.

@DeSade The term nondualism can have various meanings, but my interest is in the permanent shift in identity that can potentially be achieved by anyone who successfully overcomes mind-identification. Psychedelic experiences can reveal this state, but to my knowledge it is never lasting. New Age beliefs tend to fixate on feel-good and jargon-laden aspects of spirituality whilst avoiding the hard and humbling work needed to cut through layers of conditioning.

I have made a few threads on related topics before, as many historical religious outlooks serve as a starting point for diving into nondualism. I've touched on Advaita Vedanta Hinduism, Zen Buddhism, the teachings of Jesus (interpreted correctly) and now a concept from ancient China. Each are rich traditions that one could delve endlessly into, only to risk missing the point; all converge on a common theme of oneness, which itself defies description and renders the mind futile. Hence, true philosophy and advanced intellectualism point to something experiential; something entirely beyond itself.

Thanks to everyone for keeping the conversation going as I find it very helpful with what I'm trying to do.

 

[rationaltake]

Thank you very much for sharing for this. I have heard many accounts of bipolar highs leading people to have profound and genuine insights into the nature of reality. I once even heard someone say that it was possibly worth paying the price of all the horrible suffering of the low states.

It is also common for people who have awakening experiences - which can potentially happen to anyone, not only people who follow a practice - to be sent to mental hospitals and misdiagnosed. It's easy to see how this happens, since people in that state initially struggle with functioning in some cases, and much of society has no idea whatsoever about this subject matter.

Whenever there is a temporary transcendent experience, the mind tends to turn it into an historical event in time that occurred to a 'me' that subsequently hopes to get it back in the future. It's a devious trick, since the true starting point for directly investigating reality is always the immediate present, without identifying with thoughts and without feeding the sense of 'I'.

Clearly, the only alternative to the immediate present is being immersed in thoughts about past and future, which is itself all happening in the now. Yet in its rawness, the present moment is a potentially uncomfortable and mysterious Wild West of unfiltered sense perceptions. There's no reference point without the noisy mind's normal sense of supposedly knowing what's what. No doubt this uncomfortableness is why we all tend to avoid it, only to miss out on delving deeper to ultimately see reality as it really is.

The subtle point is that the sense of a 'me who wants to feel better and is open-minded to this spiritual stuff' has to start off the exploration of advanced states of consciousness, then quickly becomes a hindrance which itself needs to be discarded like a rocket stage. Ramana Maharshi used the analogy of the stick used for stirring the burning pyre that is then itself thrown into the fire.

The question of preparing for physical death has always interested me, too. I've concluded that it is best to have the ego as translucent as possible, even if fully-fledged ego death is not attained in this lifetime. I'm assured by teachers that any effort made is worthwhile in the bigger picture.

Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate your understanding of bipolar high and I really like the analogy of the stick.

I think I can see how it's not relevant to link my experiences to time in any way. Or indeed place or form. If I let these things fall away I can be in that transcendent state.

I feel fraudulent because everything is so mean and base now.

As a multiple I have been interested in questions about the self. My posts are often short and disjointed. I have many facets. I'm a composite.

Time is not constant for me as I flicker from one personality to another and back again. A personality is a construct to me. Morning can immediately become night with no sense of time passing. Like living in flashes with no space between.

So I have always questioned the nature of reality. Things look different to me when viewed by different personalities. I tend to believe in the multiverse.

I'm seriously depleted like a pack of cards which is dwindling every day. Personalities are dying - jumping ship. I wonder who will be left in this body. I'm more and more two-dimentional.

I used to say I couldn't live without my high. I can tune in to a certain calm transcendance.

I'm trapped by the illusion of having to fix things before I can concentrate on a spiritual path. Nothing is fixable and I just want to screw it all up and chuck it.

 

[Pluto]

I'm trapped by the illusion of having to fix things before I can concentrate on a spiritual path. Nothing is fixable and I just want to screw it all up and chuck it.

You have an advanced understanding and are in a spiritually mature state. In the bigger picture, I feel you've already accomplished far more than an average person living out a sheltered life.

Something that I'm more aware of is that all personalities are fake. I was thinking today about how people who struggle socially will often feel that they are missing out on satisfying interactions with others, yet even normies are merely interacting as personality masks and culturally/biologically conditioned behavioural patterns.

The claim made by people in advanced stages of Self-realisation is that truly spontaneous, authentic interactions are on another level of intimacy and beauty, and not only with 'special' people. And those who have truly suffered will be the most open to pursuing that pure state, hopefully to succeed. Reminds me of the quote, "[T]he last will be first, and the first will be last."

I was watching a video by a tech YouTuber I follow in which he bought his mother a new car as a surprise birthday present. I realised that his situation represented the exact opposite of mine; a great parental relationship, success in life and opportunities to celebrate abundance. He and I could just as easily be in each other's shoes; circumstances are just a product of stuff that happened. That realisation alone could peel away the entire identification with my tale of woe; the normal sense that I am the story.

As awful as the suffering must be, I wonder if the insight of dissociative personalities and ideas of self (that's 'lower case s' self) coming and going could even be a benefit here. The burning question becomes, "What is here that does not come and go?" While the intellect might jump the gun and reply that the answer is pure consciousness, the process of actually looking must happen earnestly, with genuine curiosity and persistence, in order to be open to an experiential insight.

Another thing I was reminded of while listening to another interview today pertains to thoughts. Basically, everything that is verbal is a thought. The mind's job is to catch us like a spider-web with thoughts and hold us back from seeing what's right in front of us all day long. Our only defensive weapon is passive, uninvolved observation.

I'm uncovering a swarm of them in my own case, which is what I'm currently looking at. "I still don't get it;" "The present moment seems so boring;" "What will I do if I fail?" "Perhaps I should give up already;" "I hope I can have another insight." Blah blah... none of them are valid in this context, no matter what they say. This issue has been a big Achille's heel on my path, especially as the thoughts intensify in reaction to adversity. So, I have that to work on in the coming days.

 

[rationaltake]

You have an advanced understanding and are in a spiritually mature state. In the bigger picture, I feel you've already accomplished far more than an average person living out a sheltered life.

Something that I'm more aware of is that all personalities are fake. I was thinking today about how people who struggle socially will often feel that they are missing out on satisfying interactions with others, yet even normies are merely interacting as personality masks and culturally/biologically conditioned behavioural patterns.

The claim made by people in advanced stages of Self-realisation is that truly spontaneous, authentic interactions are on another level of intimacy and beauty, and not only with 'special' people. And those who have truly suffered will be the most open to pursuing that pure state, hopefully to succeed. Reminds me of the quote, "[T]he last will be first, and the first will be last."

I was watching a video by a tech YouTuber I follow in which he bought his mother a new car as a surprise birthday present. I realised that his situation represented the exact opposite of mine; a great parental relationship, success in life and opportunities to celebrate abundance. He and I could just as easily be in each other's shoes; circumstances are just a product of stuff that happened. That realisation alone could peel away the entire identification with my tale of woe; the normal sense that I am the story.

As awful as the suffering must be, I wonder if the insight of dissociative personalities and ideas of self (that's 'lower case s' self) coming and going could even be a benefit here. The burning question becomes, "What is here that does not come and go?" While the intellect might jump the gun and reply that the answer is pure consciousness, the process of actually looking must happen earnestly, with genuine curiosity and persistence, in order to be open to an experiential insight.

Another thing I was reminded of while listening to another interview today pertains to thoughts. Basically, everything that is verbal is a thought. The mind's job is to catch us like a spider-web with thoughts and hold us back from seeing what's right in front of us all day long. Our only defensive weapon is passive, uninvolved observation.

I'm uncovering a swarm of them in my own case, which is what I'm currently looking at. "I still don't get it;" "The present moment seems so boring;" "What will I do if I fail?" "Perhaps I should give up already;" "I hope I can have another insight." Blah blah... none of them are valid in this context, no matter what they say. This issue has been a big Achille's heel on my path, especially as the thoughts intensify in reaction to adversity. So, I have that to work on in the coming days.

Thank you so much for your reply. I'm going to think on it before I get back to you. I really like this thread.

 

[rationaltake]

You have an advanced understanding and are in a spiritually mature state. In the bigger picture, I feel you've already accomplished far more than an average person living out a sheltered life.

Thank you for your encouragement. I feel such a fraud as I'm in a very bad way but somehow your words challenge me to think about the true reality. I would have said the reality of how things could be but I think I should say the reality of how things truly are behind the illusion.

Something that I'm more aware of is that all personalities are fake. I was thinking today about how people who struggle socially will often feel that they are missing out on satisfying interactions with others, yet even normies are merely interacting as personality masks and culturally/biologically conditioned behavioural patterns.

The claim made by people in advanced stages of Self-realisation is that truly spontaneous, authentic interactions are on another level of intimacy and beauty, and not only with 'special' people. And those who have truly suffered will be the most open to pursuing that pure state, hopefully to succeed. Reminds me of the quote, "[T]he last will be first, and the first will be last."

I was watching a video by a tech YouTuber I follow in which he bought his mother a new car as a surprise birthday present. I realised that his situation represented the exact opposite of mine; a great parental relationship, success in life and opportunities to celebrate abundance. He and I could just as easily be in each other's shoes; circumstances are just a product of stuff that happened. That realisation alone could peel away the entire identification with my tale of woe; the normal sense that I am the story.

I have had deep connections with certain people in my life. I think it's because I was not socialised as a child and tend to bypass social norms. Maybe a certain detachment from my specific circumstances allows me to focus on the universal.

I like that quote very much. I identify with subversion. A bit like Shakespeare's Twelfth Night which I watched on DVD recently. Masters and servants exchanging roles. A girl playing the young man. Nobody is what they seem. An allegory of this life.

As awful as the suffering must be, I wonder if the insight of dissociative personalities and ideas of self (that's 'lower case s' self) coming and going could even be a benefit here. The burning question becomes, "What is here that does not come and go?" While the intellect might jump the gun and reply that the answer is pure consciousness, the process of actually looking must happen earnestly, with genuine curiosity and persistence, in order to be open to an experiential insight.

This is very true. Though I feel unable to put it into practice.

I'm thinking about non-duality. The sense that all is one is perhaps what remains. The ultimate false duality is this "I" as opposed to everything outside this "I".

Another thing I was reminded of while listening to another interview today pertains to thoughts. Basically, everything that is verbal is a thought. The mind's job is to catch us like a spider-web with thoughts and hold us back from seeing what's right in front of us all day long. Our only defensive weapon is passive, uninvolved observation.

I'm uncovering a swarm of them in my own case, which is what I'm currently looking at. "I still don't get it;" "The present moment seems so boring;" "What will I do if I fail?" "Perhaps I should give up already;" "I hope I can have another insight." Blah blah... none of them are valid in this context, no matter what they say. This issue has been a big Achille's heel on my path, especially as the thoughts intensify in reaction to adversity. So, I have that to work on in the coming days.

I used to be interested in language and how our perception of reality is formed by the words we use. As a multiple I hear other selves conversing with each other in other parts of my brain. So I possibly understand what you mean about observation.

I'm broken and finished. I hardly get out of bed. I know none of it matters and it's all irrelevant but I'm still trapped in it and despairing.

Your words resonate with me. Thank you. I hope you succeed in your efforts.

 

[Pluto]

This is very true. Though I feel unable to put it into practice.

Agreed on all points. The question of practice is particularly salient.

Dealing with this practically, a theme that emerges is the Middle Way. In Buddhism, this traditionally refers to avoiding the extremes of asceticism or sensory indulgence.

But I feel it also applies to being a seeker without creating a haughty spiritual ego. Likewise, working towards dissolving the false individual 'I' without prematurely denying its existence. And, as I was describing on another thread yesterday, emotion work balances neither indulging in, nor trying to evade natural feelings that arise. It's all subtle stuff with potentially time-wasting pitfalls everywhere.

I'd felt at a dead-end in recent days, and only a desire to get the cars serviced promptly (since I can't trust anyone else to do so) gives me reason to push on for another few weeks. But then last night, I found myself investigating a feeling of extreme unworthiness.

Where most suicidal people feel guilt about leaving others behind, for me it is the opposite - a feeling of being hopelessly inferior, completely unwelcome here and unworthy of coexisting with others. I've always attracted people who want to be cruel towards someone vulnerable, who then further despise me for having exposed their ugly behaviour and making them feel bad.

I then found myself thinking back to life in the '80s, routinely visiting my paternal grandfather. He was a quiet and humble man, but his mere presence combined with my defined role in a family and school made me feel like I unquestionably belonged. He passed away in the late '90s. I failed to finish school due to bullying, and very slowly more and more people gave up on me until my only role was a weird, ageing loner; a living exposé of the dark side of humanity that nobody wants to face. The thing that should not be. Over many years, this led to the current feeling of unworthiness to live.

What came out of it was a realisation that I'd found myself in aggressive environments that prevented me from actually being myself, and I have felt brainwashed into subserviently defending my own attackers. Seeing this clearly, the feeling of inferiority has reduced markedly. It doesn't mean I am saved or enlightened and want to live to 90, but it is a layer of false removed.

Note that this sort of work is the exact opposite of sitting around saying 'I don't exist as an individual, time is an illusion, there's no work to do, I am the Self', etc. But someone who properly removes all the onion layers whilst being open to the fire of nondual teachings will very likely detonate into awakening at some point. I no longer mind if it is in this lifetime or not.

 

[rationaltake]

@Pluto Your post has been in the back of my mind this week. The middle way would have been helpful for me as I tended towards asceticism due to OCD. And conversely sensory overload due to bipolar high.

I have to admit I'm reduced to basics. I hope you progress in your efforts. Thank you for your posts here and in other parts of the forum.