Discussion The other N

[sevennn]

the more i read about SN the more i dread it. i'm sure it'll burn my throat horribly (due to acid reflux burning my throat daily. it's already very sensitive, i drank a couple sips of coke and suffered the whole night the other day. which made me realise how excruciating and laughable attempting with SN will be for me. Christ, i regurgitate and get burned by acid whilst having absolutely nothing in my stomach! i can't lie down even after drinking water cus it'll take some time to move down my throat, i can literally feel it struggle to enter the stomach. and that can come back up too. it's just h2o. so should i really really attempt this. i think not. it's ironic because my stomach is one good reason to ctb in the first place. and it's kind of not letting me - and SN is easy for me to get. haha isn't that hilarious, anyway) ok maybe nothing bad would've happened. i don't know. if i'm desperate enough i'll just force myself to. i thought capsules could help for a while. but i read "clumping" and "slow death", whatever. sucks. i could get propofol but no idea how to inject and my veins are hard to find even for nurses. so. wow long introduction to the post. anyone considering the other N. you know, nitrogen? im reading about it and it is pretty peaceful. no fucking vomiting. which is something i want to run away from in this life. it's a nasty feeling. constant throw up in the throat. i don't want to feel it for my last moments i want it to be peaceful. just like when i tried partial hanging to run away from tinnitus and it made it sound so loud it scared me. i didn't want to listen to my torture dialed up in my last moments. the thing about N is, it's quite complicated. but if you do everything right? very peaceful. i am concerned about, well, it's a gas cylinder (sorry if wrong translation) so can't it blow up? and i don't know where i would go with it. i had always dreamt of renting a nice house next to the woods to die in. imagining myself transporting that thing is making me laugh inside my mind just a tiny bit. am i all over the place? or it's too many words? i guess i just wanted to talk about this. i'm looking up online and i think i cn buy it easy for personal use. i might be wrong. i haven't researched this well enough yet. i guess it just gave me a bit of hope. but knowing how hard all the suicide methods are. it might take it away as soon as i dive deeper into actually planning it. sigh. i'm sure i'll fuck something up. never been too bright

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Nitrogen is a noble gas and therefore inert. It cannot blow up. It is non-combustible and non-flammable. It is the most prevalent gas in our atmosphere. The amount of nitrogen needed for ctb is not great, and since the gas is stored under high pressure, the tank size is manageable, especially with a small cart. Yes, there is equipment needed to ctb with nitrogen, and it will take some study to get past the learning curve. All accounts seem to indicate it is a peaceful death. They're even using it now for executions in a couple states here in the US.

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

Nitrogen is a great method if it's done perfectly and it basically has to be done perfectly. Even the slightest amount of oxygen seeping in or CO2 building up around you to be rebreathed mess things up.

 

[sevennn]

Nitrogen is a noble gas and therefore inert. It cannot blow up. It is non-combustible and non-flammable. It is the most prevalent gas in our atmosphere. The amount of nitrogen needed for ctb is not great, and since the gas is stored under high pressure, the tank size is manageable, especially with a small cart. Yes, there is equipment needed to ctb with nitrogen, and it will take some study to get past the learning curve. All accounts seem to indicate it is a peaceful death. They're even using it now for executions in a couple states here in the US.

i thought it could explode. no? whenever i look at these tanks i always think they'll just blow up for no reason, pressure? idk. i'm not gonna run and do this method now, possibly ever. i'm just thinking out loud. i think i'm too dumb for it lol if i have to ask such obvious questions in the first place.

Nitrogen is a great method if it's done perfectly and it basically has to be done perfectly. Even the slightest amount of oxygen seeping in or CO2 building up around you to be rebreathed mess things up.

my brains are on a steady decline. think i'm gonna screw it up. sigh.

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

i thought it could explode. no? whenever i look at these tanks i always think they'll just blow up for no reason, pressure? idk. i'm not gonna run and do this method now, possibly ever. i'm just thinking out loud. i think i'm too dumb for it lol if i have to ask such obvious questions in the first place.

my brains are on a steady decline. think i'm gonna screw it up. sigh.

A damaged tank could explode, but it's just a pressure release, not combustion

 

[sevennn]

A damaged tank could explode, but it's just a pressure release, not combustion

is a pressure release not dangerous? when i hear explode i just wanna the other direction lol

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

is a pressure release not dangerous? when i hear explode i just wanna the other direction lol

If you're near it you probably won't be worrying about anything ever again

 

[sevennn]

If you're near it you probably won't be worrying about anything ever again

better to drown it seems. or some other classic method.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

It's not like the tank can explode sending shrapnel flying everywhere. That could only happen if the pressure relief valve malfunctioned while the tank was being filled AND it was overfilled. Nitrogen is inert. It is not explosive under the circumstances encountered in day to day living.

 

[sevennn]

It's not like the tank can explode sending shrapnel flying everywhere. That could only happen if the pressure relief valve malfunctioned while the tank was being filled AND it was overfilled. Nitrogen is inert. It is not explosive under the circumstances encountered in day to day living.

that's reassuring. i have to read more about it. i really don't want the pain and vomiting from SN. it'll be like pouring salt on a wound (ahaha it literally would be like that actually)

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

It's not like the tank can explode sending shrapnel flying everywhere. That could only happen if the pressure relief valve malfunctioned while the tank was being filled AND it was overfilled. Nitrogen is inert. It is not explosive under the circumstances encountered in day to day living.

It can send shrapnel everywhere, it depends on the damage. There are an unlimited number of variables. It's not explosive due to a chemical reaction under normal circumstances, but an explosive pressure release can happen if there's a weak link in something. Sometimes it's stored at 5000psi. If you're right next to it that's the equivalent of a F150 truck's weight in every square inch of area. Some firearms operate at far less pressure at the point where the projectile leaves the muzzle.

 

[sevennn]

ok i'm being given very conflicting information

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

But still, highly unlikely anything is going to happen to a halfway decent tank setup

ok i'm being given very conflicting information

It's not conflicting, there's just nuance

 

[locked*n*loaded]

It can send shrapnel everywhere, it depends on the damage. There are an unlimited number of variables. It's not explosive due to a chemical reaction under normal circumstances, but an explosive pressure release can happen if there's a weak link in something. Sometimes it's stored at 5000psi. If you're right next to it that's the equivalent of a F150 truck's weight in every square inch of area. Some firearms operate at far less pressure at the point where the projectile leaves the muzzle.

The tanks that we're talking about here are not 5000 psi. Or, 6000 psi. The one the OP would get would be 2015 psi. What damage? Where's the damage coming from? You can knock those tanks over, or hit them with a forklift, and nothing happens. It's not going to explode just sitting there. There's a better chance of the regulator breaking off and high pressure release if the tank is knocked over than the tank blowing up. Tanks are regularly inspected and the greatest likelihood of a tank explosion is during fill-up.

 

[Intoxicated]

Nitrogen is a noble gas and therefore inert.

Well, it's not a noble gas and strictly speaking it's not completely inert. It can support combustion as an oxidizer as long as the other reagent is active enough. For example, magnesium can be burnt in nitrogen



But N2 can be safely considered inert for the purposes of gas asphyxiation.

Even the slightest amount of oxygen seeping in or CO2 building up around you to be rebreathed mess things up.

Is there any actual research proving that? How do you define "slightest amount of oxygen" and what exactly should happen if CO2 builds up around you after loss of consciousness due to lack of O2?

According to numerous resources, concentrations of O2 below 6% cause rapid fainting and death in a few minutes.

https://www.uncp.edu/sites/default/files/2019-06/DOL%20-%20A%20Guide%20to%20Confined%20Spaces.pdf

An oxygen-deficient atmosphere has less than 19.5 percent available oxygen (O2). When oxygen levels drop below 17percent, there is increased breathing volume, accelerated heartbeat and a deterioration of night vision, which is usually not noticeable. Oxygen atmospheres with 14 to 16 percent oxygen contribute to poor muscular coordination, rapid fatigue and intermittent respiration. At 6 percent oxygen, there is a rapid loss of consciousness and death in minutes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6474450/

Between 8–11%, there is a risk of fainting in minutes, between 6–8% oxygen this occurs rapidly, and below 6% collapse will be immediate

https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2007-04-02-0

At oxygen levels of 10 to 14 percent, faulty judgment, intermittent respiration, and exhaustion can be expected even with minimal exertion (Exs. 25-4 and 150). Breathing air containing 6 to 10 percent oxygen results in nausea, vomiting, lethargic movements, and perhaps unconsciousness. Breathing air containing less than 6 percent oxygen produces convulsions, then apnea (cessation of breathing), followed by cardiac standstill. These symptoms occur immediately.

https://www.asiaiga.org/uploaded_docs/AIGA%20008_11_Hazards%20of%20inert%20gases%20and%20oxygen%20depletion.pdf

0-6 O2(Vol %) Fainting almost immediate. Brain damage, even if rescued.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Fine. It's not noble. But, for the purposes of this discussion it is inert and not coming into contact with any other substance.

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

Fine. It's not noble. But, for the purposes of this discussion it is inert and not coming into contact with any other substance.

Right, but explosion isn't always due to a chemical reaction - being inert isn't relevant when just talking about a pressure release.

As far as the research due to even the slightest amount of oxygen - lots of variables there. Useful consciousness is very low at 6% concentration or an altitude/pressure where oxygen is at an equivalent partial pressure but still around a 21.5 concentration. Death will be imminent if that condition remains. But the body will have a very high affinity to absorb any oxygen existing under a sea level adjacent pressure up to around 8000 feet above msl. More oxygen is not good when you're trying to CTB. Oxygen as with any other gas in a mixture will try to equalize from high to low concentration adjacent to it. It's always going to try to creep into whatever area it's at a lower concentration/partial pressure whenever it's able to. CO2 buildup is an irritant and can trigger the SI instinct and cause choking an other symptoms. N is good for CTB because the molecular weight is similar to O2 and the body has a hard time differentiating the difference of 100% N2 and 78% N2

 

[Intoxicated]

More oxygen is not good when you're trying to CTB.

Thanks cap, but 6% seems to be a pretty big threshold of guaranteed quick LOC and death for me, so exceeding it somehow is hard to classify as just "slightest" presence of O2.

Oxygen as with any other gas in a mixture will try to equalize from high to low concentration adjacent to it. It's always going to try to creep into whatever area it's at a lower concentration/partial pressure whenever it's able to.

Yeah, that process is called diffusion, and its effect on the resulting concentration inside the bag can be mitigated by a gas flow or nearly complete isolation from the ambient atmosphere.

CO2 buildup is an irritant and can trigger the SI instinct and cause choking an other symptoms.

Unlike O2, CO2 can't maintain consciousness, and unlike reflexes, instincts can't work without consciousness. What's the problem with choking if you're unconscious because of low O2 anyway?

N is good for CTB because the molecular weight is similar to O2 and the body has a hard time differentiating the difference of 100% N2 and 78% N2

I don't think the molecular mass makes a noticeable difference. You could use lightweight helium or heavy gases like xenon, sulfur hexafluoride, or perfluorobutane with nearly the same outcome.

 

[sevennn]

you guys know a lot. are you gonna attempt with this method?

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

Thanks cap, but 6% seems to be a pretty big threshold of guaranteed quick LOC and death for me, so exceeding it somehow is hard to classify as just "slightest" presence of O2.

Yeah, that process is called diffusion, and its effect on the resulting concentration inside the bag can be mitigated by a gas flow or nearly complete isolation from the ambient atmosphere.

Unlike O2, CO2 can't maintain consciousness, and unlike reflexes, instincts can't work without consciousness. What's the problem with choking if you're unconscious because of low O2 anyway?

I don't think the molecular mass makes a noticeable difference. You could use lightweight helium or heavy gases like xenon, sulfur hexafluoride, or perfluorobutane with nearly the same outcome.

Yes, mostly.

We have chemoreceptors for CO2. You have to unstrap yourself from the studies that are based on a controlled set of conditions, CO2 could be accumulating around you into the air supply you're breathing, you may still be conscious in some scenarios even if briefly. But CO2 is always going to be an SI triggering irritant from a physiological standpoint because of our chemoreceptors. It's how we know to breathe more. As I was saying we sense it in what we breathe and we sense it as it builds up in our bodies from being unable to diffuse out of the alveoli.

For the other gasses, we don't have chemoreceptors for them so they're not a trigger. You would lose consciousness when breathing a sufficient concentration before your body notices the buildup of CO2 in a significant way.

 

[DoneWithThisLife]

The idea of nitrogen gas terrifies me, especially after reading this.

What happened at the nation's first nitrogen gas execution: An AP eyewitness account

Witnesses watched through a window at an Alabama prison as Kenneth Eugene Smith became the nation's first person to be put to death using nitrogen gas.

apnews.com

 

[sevennn]

yeah. seems like i got my hopes up. have to burn my insides with SN, don't i. sucks

 

[Intoxicated]

You have to unstrap yourself from the studies that are based on a controlled set of conditions, CO2 could be accumulating around you into the air supply you're breathing, you may still be conscious in some scenarios even if briefly. But CO2 is always going to be an SI triggering irritant from a physiological standpoint because of our chemoreceptors.

Have you ever tried to breathe inside a trash bag filled with plain air and measure the time before you start feeling the urge to breathe with fresh air? If not, you could do your own experiments without and then with prior hyperventilation. You'll probably be surprised how much time is needed to activate your hypercapnic response. If you breathe in oxygen-depleted atmosphere having less than 6% of oxygen, you probably become completely stuporous long before the effects of CO2 would matter.

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

Have you ever tried to breathe inside a trash bag and measure the time before you start feeling the urge to breathe with fresh air? If not, you could do your own experiments without and then with prior hyperventilation. You'll probably be surprised how much time is needed to activate your hypercapnic response. If you breathe in oxygen-depleted atmosphere having less than 6% of oxygen, you probably become completely stuporous long before the effects of CO2 would matter.

Yeah, probably. But how much do you know about how hypercapnic the trash bag is and how quickly.

 

[Intoxicated]

Breathing with plain air inside an isolated bag should theoretically be the worst possible case, since you keep consuming O2 from it and the produced CO2 is not flushed out at all.

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

Breathing with plain air inside an isolated bag should theoretically be the worst possible case, since you keep consuming O2 from it and the produced CO2 is not flushed out at all.

Yeah, but you don't know how quickly you're getting to any given state. The body takes in a variable amount of oxygen and expels a variable amount of CO2. We don't take in 21.5% of the air we breathe in a breath just because it's there. We also expel oxygen to differing degrees. There usually a bunch of other variables studies prevent themselves from thinking about. Studies are just a blip, a snapshot, the real usefulness of a study is not the rote regurgitation of it but it is being able to infer and draw sound hypotheses from it. It's a marker in space and it's useful when you're able to stay grounded to a study and navigate from it based on other things you know. It's a similar concept to deducted reasoning/ded reckoning in aviation.

 

[Intoxicated]

Yeah, but you don't know how quickly you're getting to any given state.

Rough estimations can be made based on various documents, videos, and personal experiments. Multiple evidences suggest that loss of consciousness due to very low amount of O2 in the lungs happens within a minute (typically fainting occurs in 15 - 40 seconds since a process of breathing with an asphyxiant has began). On the other hand, according to the experiments that can be easily reproduced at home multiple times, actual hypercapnic response develops in more than 1 minute (depending on whether and how hyperventilation is used, the first signs of the urge to breathe may appear in 1 - 3 minutes after which it remains bearable for a minute or more).

The body takes in a variable amount of oxygen and expels a variable amount of CO2. We don't take in 21.5% of the air we breathe in a breath just because it's there. We also expel oxygen to differing degrees. There usually a bunch of other variables studies prevent themselves from thinking about.

There is no need in calculating all timestamps with the millisecond precision. Despite variability, the time intervals before LOC and moderate and strong hypercapnic response most likely belong to some common ranges whose bounds can be compared to each other. If LOC happens in <1 minute, and the moderate hypercapnic response is developed in >1 min under the worst-case conditions (no prior hyperventilation and keeping all expelled CO2 inside the bag), you should be good.

 

[blue]

is a pressure release not dangerous? when i hear explode i just wanna the other direction lol

I guess? But we all keep fire extinguishers in our home, which I believe is also pressurized, and I've never heard of any incidents.

 

[schrei_nach_liebe]

I guess? But we all keep fire extinguishers in our home, which I believe is also pressurized, and I've never heard of any incidents.

Fire extinguishers aren't pressurized very highly, they can and do explode if left in a fire. Fire (large temperature increase) would increase the pressure inside them and weaken the tank. How dangerous a pressure release is depends on how quickly it happens and what happens to whatever vessel was holding the pressure.

 

[blue]

The idea of nitrogen gas terrifies me, especially after reading this.

What happened at the nation's first nitrogen gas execution: An AP eyewitness account

Witnesses watched through a window at an Alabama prison as Kenneth Eugene Smith became the nation's first person to be put to death using nitrogen gas.

apnews.com

wow! I always thought this method was peaceful.