Discussion Theology: Reasons to accept God's grace through faith?

[The Burning Fool]

If I intrinsically value the state of eternal oblivion, what arguments do you / does the holy scripture have for me to accept the gift of eternal life?

If my heart is drawn to damnation, what could turn it to yearn for salvation?

 

[EternalShore]

For better or for worse, the Bible doesn't open up the option to eternal non-existence. One can only be given Heaven or Hell~ Considering how much suffering we already experience in this life, I can only imagine that eternal suffering in Hell would be far worse! >_<
As stated by Jesus in Matthew 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So should Christianity be true, one is granted eternity no matter which option they choose, just that one is destined to be far more unpleasant than the other! >_<

 

[The Burning Fool]

For better or for worse, the Bible doesn't open up the option to eternal non-existence. One can only be given Heaven or Hell~ Considering how much suffering we already experience in this life, I can only imagine that eternal suffering in Hell would be far worse! >_<
As stated by Jesus in Matthew 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So should Christianity be true, one is granted eternity no matter which option they choose, just that one is destined to be far more unpleasant than the other! >_<

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

These verses imply that souls that are shut out from God's presence shall be utterly destroyed. There must be no consciousness in Hell, because that would contradict everlasting destruction. God grants everlasting life in His presence through salvation, and the opposite of life is not suffering but death.

My question is that if I wish to attain everlasting destruction of my soul, then what motive do I have to accept God's gift of everlasting life?

 

[EternalShore]

If you do wish for that, believing in the mortality of the soul and that Hell can not exist (since that is essentially what you propose), then you are freely given the choice to reject God's gift~ I can't stop you! xD

As an actual response to prove otherwise tho, the Bible actually describes what you wish for as what Job also wished for in Job 3:13: "For then I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept; then I would have been at rest,"
For context on the Book of Job, none of the theology described inside is entirely accurate as it's a narrative with Job's "friends" near the start of the book being complete pro-life jerks, and Elihu (who rebuked Job and his pro-life "friends") being the only one whose theology is entirely accurate~ Job's theology is mostly accurate imo, but his desire for what he wants the afterlife to look like is completely wrong but does give us insight on how the Bible (or rather God) would describe such views! ^_^

However, imo, the verses you quote aren't really enough to justify such a belief~ Far from an eternal rest as described in Job, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 describes it as "everlasting destruction" and as a punishment. Everlasting (which means never-ending) would be an odd word to use to describe one ceasing to exist as well! xD

It took me a while to understand what you were getting at with Ezekiel 18:4, but I think I got it now! lol. You aren't confused about death being eternal but soul death being eternal, right? :)
Well, in the Old Testament, the soul is the person, not separate. This is best explained with the creation of Adam in Genesis 2:7. When God created Adam, He breathed the breath of life into him, not giving him a soul but turning him into a soul. This is why he is described as a living being or living soul in 1 Corinthians 15:47 (which would otherwise be odd considering how the New Testament talks about souls). This is also why the Hebrew word for soul, nephesh, is often translated not just as soul and life but as person and in reference to people.

 

[The Burning Fool]

lzibocjar

At the end of the day it is clearly stated all throughout holy scripture that the punishment for sin is the everlasting destruction of the soul and total separation from life (God). I don't see at all how that can be interpreted as conscious torment instead of permanent annihilation. Meh, none of these supernatural claims are substantiated anyway. But the point I was trying to make is that if all God is offering me is eternal life, then I view the alternative as an upgrade to that.

 

[Pluto]

I believe the Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the disposal of rejected souls. It's also my understanding that early Christianity, prior to the Catholic Church politicising the religion to control the masses, did not explicitly describe hell as an eternal punishment, but merely a temporary atonement.

The larger question I would ponder is whether belief has any impact on the nature of reality. Does it affect the falling of a pebble that I drop if I do not believe in gravity? Why would beliefs or disbeliefs about the afterlife of a conditioned human mind have any impact on the cosmos?

What can be said is that eternal hell is an idea quite unique to contemporary Abrahamic religions, yet eternal life is quite widely believed across many cultures. There is also the possibility of Donald Hoffman-style consciousness studies settling the matter conclusively in the future.

 

[The Burning Fool]

The larger question I would ponder is whether belief has any impact on the nature of reality. Does it affect the falling of a pebble that I drop if I do not believe in gravity? Why would beliefs or disbeliefs about the afterlife of a conditioned human mind have any impact on the cosmos?

Although the obvious answer is that belief does not affect gravity, to give a counterexample there is a demonstrable health benefit of simply believing in one's own healing / wanting to heal. Taking placebo as medication is also more effective than not taking it, because the mind is tricked into believing that the body may heal. Imo that means one's beliefs affect some aspects of the way one's whole body works, and I don't see how it stops at that point. To demonstrate my point: if I firmly believe that I will help millions of children have access to clean drinking water, then first my mind and body will adjust to my beliefs, meaning that I will find mental fortitude and motivation to physically work on that goal, which in turn will affect the environment in significant ways.

I only see two ways how that can happen: I have some sort of precognition, or my beliefs have the power to shape some aspects of reality. But I don't want to make an argument from ignorance, so I'm open to other explanations as well.

And although it is reasonable to withhold belief in supernatural claims until they are demonstrated to be true, one cannot help but wonder how much unknown depth there is to existence that may or may not be shaped by one's beliefs to some extent as well.

 

[Pluto]

Although the obvious answer is that belief does not affect gravity, to give a counterexample there is a demonstrable health benefit of simply believing in one's own healing / wanting to heal.

This is a valid point in its own right. In a sense, belief is extremely central to the human experience. It affects our everyday attitudes. An obvious example would be the misanthrope who constantly has his/her attitude reinforced by routinely manifesting hostile encounters with others.

But then, at some point, we come into contact with natural laws which are infinitely more powerful than us. Even the people who move mountains are merely working with, and utilising, these natural laws.

My understanding of this ultimate reality is that all things perish, including the human body and the collection of ideas and identities that we call the mind. Yet life itself - which is not a particular 'thing', but an indescribable background of reality - is completely timeless. So are we the body-mind, or are we life itself?

In Eastern traditions, 'enlightenment' is the process of dissolving the perishable human identity while the body is still alive, thus realising one's true nature as life itself, not the temporary form. At that level, there isn't even free will because there's no person left to possess it. And importantly, this is a direct knowing and not a mere belief. And one of the keys to discovering this is an attitude of unlimited surrender, including giving up all beliefs and letting to of our very sense of self that could possess beliefs of any kind.

This is not so different to science, which is a process of experimentation and surrendering ideas which do not stand up to scrutiny. Except this process takes it to the absolute extreme to come into contact with the fundamental nature of reality.

 

[The Burning Fool]

In Eastern traditions, 'enlightenment' is the process of dissolving the perishable human identity while the body is still alive, thus realising one's true nature as life itself, not the temporary form.

Maybe on that level it doesn't even matter if one calls it life or death, the point is to realize that all is one and the same. I embrace death as my true nature, and I acknowledge the delusion created by the human body and mind for what it is: a corrupt projection of a mere fragment of actual reality. I don't know if that would be called the right view, or that's just how I interpret the teachings of early Buddhism.

 

[Pluto]

Maybe on that level it doesn't even matter if one calls it life or death, the point is to realize that all is one and the same. I embrace death as my true nature, and I acknowledge the delusion created by the human body and mind for what it is: a corrupt projection of a mere fragment of actual reality. I don't know if that would be called the right view, or that's just how I interpret the teachings of early Buddhism.

I think you have a good understanding. The direct experience is said to be very liberating, as the burden of being a struggling human is exposed as a mere fiction.

 

[Forever Sleep]

For better or for worse, the Bible doesn't open up the option to eternal non-existence. One can only be given Heaven or Hell~ Considering how much suffering we already experience in this life, I can only imagine that eternal suffering in Hell would be far worse! >_<
As stated by Jesus in Matthew 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So should Christianity be true, one is granted eternity no matter which option they choose, just that one is destined to be far more unpleasant than the other! >_<

It's so weird that in any era, they considered eternal life a reward- even in heaven. I really hope it isn't true.

Still- if we really are eternal, doesn't that mean we existed before we were born? In which case- fine. I don't believe we're conscious then- in the way we define it when we are alive. Maybe- if we do live on, death will be the same.

Seems weird to me that God would give us the ability to choose and then, want us to obey utterly or, feel really bad about it if we don't. As a personality- they seem to want adoration despite all the horrific things they designed to allow to happen to us. They want to give us the option to choose because that means our 'love' is maybe more genuine I suppose. It just all seems so weird and cruel to me. I'd much rather there wasn't a God. I can't imagine what kind of being comes up with all this. I certainly don't want to be under their control but I guess we'll have no choice- if it's all true.

 

[Cheffo]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

These verses imply that souls that are shut out from God's presence shall be utterly destroyed. There must be no consciousness in Hell, because that would contradict everlasting destruction. God grants everlasting life in His presence through salvation, and the opposite of life is not suffering but death.

My question is that if I wish to attain everlasting destruction of my soul, then what motive do I have to accept God's gift of everlasting life?

Because you want it. Do you want it? And what do you mean by eternal life? The Christian version? In an actual Heaven? There are real problems with the concept of Heaven. For one an eternity in one place would get horribly boring, a torture eventually I would think. And there are supposedly no tears in heaven, no sadness. So do they erase our memories, because some memories are sad. There are whole lists of problems like that with heaven. Bhuddism has an eternal life, but not a personal one. But if its a choice between heaven, where you are stuck forever, and annihilation, annihilation I think might be better.

 

[k1w1]

The bible was written for Jewish people, if you are not of that faith it is irrelevant. I believe there is mention that there is only room for 108000 in heaven anyway.

 

[The Burning Fool]

The bible was written for Jewish people, if you are not of that faith it is irrelevant. I believe there is mention that there is only room for 108000 in heaven anyway.

Revelation 14:1–5 speaks about the 144000 that have Jesus' and the Father's name written on their foreheads, singing a new song before the throne and the hayyot and the elders that no one else can learn and so on, but I don't see how that excludes others from occupying different places in the heavenly kingdom.

But Romans 11-13 speaks about whom Jesus saves, and these verses debunk all of the points you've made here: 11 ​As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame." 12 ​For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 ​for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

[EternalShore]

Because you want it. Do you want it? And what do you mean by eternal life? The Christian version? In an actual Heaven? There are real problems with the concept of Heaven. For one an eternity in one place would get horribly boring, a torture eventually I would think. And there are supposedly no tears in heaven, no sadness. So do they erase our memories, because some memories are sad. There are whole lists of problems like that with heaven. Bhuddism has an eternal life, but not a personal one. But if its a choice between heaven, where you are stuck forever, and annihilation, annihilation I think might be better.

How a lot of people stereotype Heaven with endless singing, it would get boring, yes yes. However, I doubt it'll actually end up as they say! xD Because otherwise, it'd be boring and no fun at all! >_< In essence, not really paradise in Heaven~ There are tears in Heaven. He just wipes them away (Revelation 21:4).
The reason why I respond to your comment tho is that I wouldn't say Buddhism has eternal life in any sense. No being has a self or soul as it's merely illusory (anatman). Once the cycle of rebirth and death has been conquered, one (if you can call it that even) is merely sunyata, nothingness/voidness as truth. Different Buddhist schools obscure this fact better than others, but it's all the same in the end. Essentially, it's all just working for an annihilationism that's been repainted.

 

[Cheffo]

How a lot of people stereotype Heaven with endless singing, it would get boring, yes yes. However, I doubt it'll actually end up as they say! xD Because otherwise, it'd be boring and no fun at all! >_< In essence, not really paradise in Heaven~ There are tears in Heaven. He just wipes them away (Revelation 21:4).
The reason why I respond to your comment tho is that I wouldn't say Buddhism has eternal life in any sense. No being has a self or soul as it's merely illusory (anatman). Once the cycle of rebirth and death has been conquered, one (if you can call it that even) is merely sunyata, nothingness/voidness as truth. Different Buddhist schools obscure this fact better than others, but it's all the same in the end. Essentially, it's all just working for an annihilationism that's been repainted.

Steroype? What evidence do you have that a heaven even exixts?

Apparently Heaven is a place whrere people have free will but willing choose to never sin. So if God can make a place like that, man and God together in harmony, with free will and yet always choosing to worship God and not sin, then why not just make Heaven straight away? Why make this other horrible place of misery? What's the point?