Thoughts are not facts????

[Tegan_sky]

Found this post in FB this morning, I titled the picture "Thoughts are facts to the people having them." Does anyone else think you can get out of your depression and anxiety just by thinking different thoughts? See the hashtags say #depression, #anxiety, etc. As if this is the answer to anxiety and depression. I was brought up in recovery and therapy, and have also read it in the past, that the main thing that helps people heal, is being heard, being understood, in the state they are in, if they are depressed, to be heard and understood while they are in the depression, etc. Not to be told things like "your thinking is wrong, if you change your thoughts, you won't be depressed (or anxious) etc, anymore." This is kind of like the title of the Wayne Dyer book "change your thinking, change your life." I have read in several places that he had an intolerance for depresses/anxious people.

Just wondering what anyone thinks? And so many of the people who say (sometimes with judgements) "you can re-train your brain" have NO personal experience of having been depressed or suicidal themselves.

 

[Baskol1]

No, this is the same new age positive thinking bullshit, nothing new. You know things like the law of attraction. And the same old platitudes. Yes the facebook profile is new, but the idea not.

 

[Thanatos]

Therapy has never helped me, although I know of some people it has greatly benefited

 

[Baskol1]

Therapy has never helped me, although I know of some people it has greatly benefited

No this is more positive thinking bs, not therapy, so even worse.

 

[oopswronglife]

There is truth in it even though most people saying it don't really get it and are using it for motivational soundbites. Those people are infuriating not because of what they say...but because we know they don't really know severe suffering like we do. It's angering when your life is shit to see someone need some "technique" to deal with their suburban first world issues. But that doesn't make the point wrong. Kill the messenger not the message in this case.

Thoughts and emotions are not facts nor reality most of the time. There is a time I would have said "BUT IT'S MY REALITY FUCK OFF!" but I was wrong then. Thoughts come without or permission or action most of the time, but you can recognize that and stop them. Maybe for only 5 seconds at first. Emotions are the same and results from the thoughts. You can't have emotions without thinking about something to generate them...fear because of a threat, anger because of a slight, lust because of a crush etc. Most of those thoughts and emotions aren't based in anything real...rather in shit we make up about things.

For example...you find a lump on your body. You think "oh shit what if it's cancer!?" and you start thinking more and more about cancer and the consequences. Then the emotions responding to that happen. Or more apropos to this forum...you think "I HAVE to ctb tomorrow because I will be here alone and if I don't someone might find my method and I will NEVER have another chance" and it spirals into panic and horrors. When the truth is there is ALWAYS another chance to ctb except in the most severe or unlikely circumstances like total paralysis...but we fear that SO much we decide it will happen and live it in our minds as if it were. Suddenly you have lived those entires scenario involving a only a fantasy and thought the thoughts and felt the emotions. It's all real to your mind and body...it feels the same as if you found out you had cancer...but its not a fact. Even if you DO end up having cancer you don't know that yet and the whole thought/emotion fantasy happened anyway.

People like to dismiss it as woo woo bullshit, and I am not metaphysical or anything, but it IS possible to recognize you are thinking too much about things that aren't happening or aren't real and to try to redirect yourself. It IS possible to slow down the emotions and panic by acknowledging that you are making it all up from a worry etc. I do this every day. It's not a cure for all problems...its not easy...but it does help. The more you do it the easier it gets and the more problems it gets rid of since they are mostly made up. For the real present problems we also do this...turn them into more than they are. For ruminating on past problems we cannot do anything about because the past is gone we bring them forward again and create more problems from them. So the same technique works for those too.

It makes people angry to hear this because we don't want techniques. We want cures. We don't want minds that do this shit to us. We want it solved and past problems erased and never HAVE fantasies about fear and bad things. But this is what we have got so if you want to live with a mind that tries to work that way you have two choices....let it do what it wants and make your life worse...or recognize what it's doing and reframe/redirect/stop it's behaviors. It's a process not a button press.

I recommend reading Eckhart Tolle if you are interested in this. Watching some of his videos on YouTube. "The Power of Now" and "Practicing the Power of Now" (much shorter and maybe a better first read). His entire basis is that we create MORE suffering than is needed because of letting our minds live in past and future fears and worries, and that redirecting ourselves to NOW...the present...which is all there really is since the past and future are both not here NOW...helps remove all that unneeded pain. It's not saying you cannot remember something, or plan for the future, only that diving into fantasies and living the thoughts and emotions when doing so takes you away from NOW and life and creates this very real physical and emotional reaction that's nothing but made up in your head. Focus on NOW and solving what you can rather than letting the immutable past and unknown future rule your mind. You CAN affect this process no matter how much you might say "I cannot". I suggest when reading to write down questions you have or times you think "that's bullshit" because when I did so I found that 99% of those questions and arguments were answered as I read on. He is really good at getting his point across and even if you don't agree with 100% of it the tools are helpful.

Nevermind the cultish pop culture response to him like Oprah, Facebook etc. He isn't some meme...there is wisdom there. If you want the ebooks free you can get them off libgen etc so you don't have to spend anything or risk anything but time to read. It was suggested to me a long time ago and I skimmed it and tossed it aside as bullshit. I was not ready to accept it and when others said the went through the same doubt first I didn't believe them...I was positive I was different, that all my thoughts, emotions, and suffering was real and unavoidable....I was wrong, and letting my mind spiral into shit was responsible for so much of my suffering...that doesnt mean real shit didnt happen to me...it doesn't mean I wasn't harmed and betrayed or any of those things...it just means of the total pain around that MOST of it was mind manfactured with thoughts that were not facts...and right now I think I will still likely CTB one day as I can't see financially surviving because things are so bad and costly after what I have been though...and I don't see myself being able to FULLY accept life no matter what it brings, as Tolle's end goal is...but I do benefit from his methods and will keep trying to get through this life until I cannot anymore...until I REALLY cannot...not just the "I cannot last another day" cannot we say every day..

 

[Orin]

Does anyone else think you can get out of your depression and anxiety just by thinking different thoughts?

In my case it's not the thought, but my mental state/mood (chemicals in the brain?)

Like for instance, if i'm in a good mood, i would force myself to think of a thought that angered me in the past, and it would fail to trigger any negative emotion whatsoever.

 

[ScorpiusDragon]

Found this post in FB this morning, I titled the picture "Thoughts are facts to the people having them." Does anyone else think you can get out of your depression and anxiety just by thinking different thoughts? See the hashtags say #depression, #anxiety, etc. As if this is the answer to anxiety and depression. I was brought up in recovery and therapy, and have also read it in the past, that the main thing that helps people heal, is being heard, being understood, in the state they are in, if they are depressed, to be heard and understood while they are in the depression, etc. Not to be told things like "your thinking is wrong, if you change your thoughts, you won't be depressed (or anxious) etc, anymore." This is kind of like the title of the Wayne Dyer book "change your thinking, change your life." I have read in several places that he had an intolerance for depresses/anxious people.

Just wondering what anyone thinks? And so many of the people who say (sometimes with judgements) "you can re-train your brain" have NO personal experience of having been depressed or suicidal themselves.


View attachment 15313

I want to barf just looking at this....

 

[Dawn0071111]

There is truth in it even though most people saying it don't really get it and are using it for motivational soundbites. Those people are infuriating not because of what they say...but because we know they don't really know severe suffering like we do. It's angering when your life is shit to see someone need some "technique" to deal with their suburban first world issues. But that doesn't make the point wrong. Kill the messenger not the message in this case.

Thoughts and emotions are not facts nor reality most of the time. There is a time I would have said "BUT IT'S MY REALITY FUCK OFF!" but I was wrong then. Thoughts come without or permission or action most of the time, but you can recognize that and stop them. Maybe for only 5 seconds at first. Emotions are the same and results from the thoughts. You can't have emotions without thinking about something to generate them...fear because of a threat, anger because of a slight, lust because of a crush etc. Most of those thoughts and emotions aren't based in anything real...rather in shit we make up about things.

For example...you find a lump on your body. You think "oh shit what if it's cancer!?" and you start thinking more and more about cancer and the consequences. Then the emotions responding to that happen. Or more apropos to this forum...you think "I HAVE to ctb tomorrow because I will be here alone and if I don't someone might find my method and I will NEVER have another chance" and it spirals into panic and horrors. When the truth is there is ALWAYS another chance to ctb except in the most severe or unlikely circumstances like total paralysis...but we fear that SO much we decide it will happen and live it in our minds as if it were. Suddenly you have lived those entires scenario involving a only a fantasy and thought the thoughts and felt the emotions. It's all real to your mind and body...it feels the same as if you found out you had cancer...but its not a fact. Even if you DO end up having cancer you don't know that yet and the whole thought/emotion fantasy happened anyway.

People like to dismiss it as woo woo bullshit, and I am not metaphysical or anything, but it IS possible to recognize you are thinking too much about things that aren't happening or aren't real and to try to redirect yourself. It IS possible to slow down the emotions and panic by acknowledging that you are making it all up from a worry etc. I do this every day. It's not a cure for all problems...its not easy...but it does help. The more you do it the easier it gets and the more problems it gets rid of since they are mostly made up. For the real present problems we also do this...turn them into more than they are. For ruminating on past problems we cannot do anything about because the past is gone we bring them forward again and create more problems from them. So the same technique works for those too.

It makes people angry to hear this because we don't want techniques. We want cures. We don't want minds that do this shit to us. We want it solved and past problems erased and never HAVE fantasies about fear and bad things. But this is what we have got so if you want to live with a mind that tries to work that way you have two choices....let it do what it wants and make your life worse...or recognize what it's doing and reframe/redirect/stop it's behaviors. It's a process not a button press.

I recommend reading Eckhart Tolle if you are interested in this. Watching some of his videos on YouTube. "The Power of Now" and "Practicing the Power of Now" (much shorter and maybe a better first read). His entire basis is that we create MORE suffering that is real because of letting our minds live in past and future fears and worries and that redirecting ourselves to NOW...the present...which is all there really is since the past and future are both not here NOW...helps remove all that unneeded pain. I suggest when reading to write down questions you have or times you think "that's bullshit" because when I did so I found that 99% of those questions and arguments were answered as I read on. He is really good at getting his point across and even if you don't agree with 100% of it the tools are helpful.

Nevermind the cultish pop culture response to him like Oprah, Facebook etc. He isn't some meme...there is wisdom there. If you want the ebooks free you can get them off libgen etc so you don't have to spend anything or risk anything but time to read. It was suggested to me a long time ago and I skimmed it and tossed it aside as bullshit. I was not ready to accept it and when others said the went through the same doubt first I didn't believe them...I was positive I was different, that all my thoughts, emotions, and suffering was real and unavoidable....I was wrong, and letting my mind spiral into shit was responsible for so much of my suffering...that doesnt mean real shit didnt happen to me...it doesn't mean I wasn't harmed and betrayed or any of those things...it just means of the total pain around that MOST of it was mind manfactured with thoughts that were not facts...and right now I think I will still likely CTB one day as I can't see financially surviving because things are so bad and costly after what I have been though...and I don't see myself being able to FULLY accept life no matter what it brings, as Tolle's end goal is...but I do benefit from his methods and will keep trying to get through this life until I cannot anymore...until I REALLY cannot...not just the "I cannot last another day" cannot we say every day..

I agree. I'm just too tired to do any of it...lol
I think technically its true. I have tried several programs and techniques that offer a way of of severe negative thinking. i think it is the cause. Sometimes if it something like "intrusive thoughts" from ptsd, then there are different tecniques.

Thoughts definatly are not facts and for the most part that can be a really good thing. But like the other poster said, i dont want a technique I want a damn cure. But maybe I just havent found the right one yet, so maybe it is about finding something that works. For me it need to provide sufficent relief. But yeah, it may be true that we can think ourself in and out of anything. I think that this sort of thing is not as helpful in deep pain, but one needs more validation, care and empathy.... so i I have found timing is critical as well....

 

[oopswronglife]

I agree. I'm just too tired to do any of it...lol

This will sound like some pretentious gobber talking down to you...but saying that "I am just too tired" is just that mind I talked about making excuses. Being too tired isn't a factual reason to not be able to do this. It's not having no legs and factually NOT being able to run down the street. It's not YOU...it's the unwanted thoughts that are used to avoid dealing with it. If you here that excuse in your head and do nothing...you are letting it control you. That sounds insulting because it feels like we are being blamed...it's not being blamed...it's facing that the mind has its thought and emotion driven ego and will fight you until you show it YOU are in charge. YOU have to say "Hey this 10min of panic about "what if this happens" is not real...its not happened yet and might not at all" and try to focus on something else. It's like having an unruly child to attend to. You have to condition them what behavior is allowed. It DOES take energy and time...it isn't simple nor complete. But it gets easier and it DOES help. Worst case it helps enough to get to your ctb moment with less panic...best case you find a life.

I wil often find myself lost in thought...about past, current, or future worries and problems...and next thing I know I've been in the shower 10min living an entire lifetime of pain in those thoughts. I didn't mean to...it happened...but recognizing it and saying "nope" and focusing on something else derails it. If I don't it just keeps going and gaining steam. It all feels real...factual...happening...I have anxiety and sweat and get tense...all from fucking THOUGHTS about things. Not from reality.

 

[Misanthrope]

@oopswronglife did a good job at explaining why some thoughts are not facts but we react to them like they are. But if you are being punched in the face no amount of changing your thoughts is going to change the fact you are being punched in the face. Only actions will.

You ask.

Does anyone else think you can get out of your depression and anxiety just by thinking different thoughts?

Then state.

"Just wondering what anyone thinks? And so many of the people who say (sometimes with judgements) "you can re-train your brain" have NO personal experience of having been depressed or suicidal themselves.

Why ask what people think if you are going to assume the people who have done just that, have no experience with being depressed? It is not very inviting at that point because you are telling them they are liars already. This liar is wondering if I should even bother to respond meaningfully.

 

[oopswronglife]

But if you are being punched in the face no amount of changing your thoughts is going to change the fact you are being punched in the face. Only actions will.

Nothing in the "thoughts and emotions are not real" idea says that EVERYTHING is not real. The thing is most of the times we believe we are being punched in the face....we are not. It's imaginary. It's felt the same emotionally because we allow our mind to take over. This isn't some idea that nothing matters and its all illusory. It's basically the whole "focus on the things you can fix and accept the things you cannot" idea applied to the present moment. You cannot solve past damages. It's natural to think about them, and we do have to live with their effects, but its wasted time and pain to dwell. Same with future fears. Yes...act to deal with real and present issues. If you cannot act then you have two choices...accept them (acceptance doesn't mean agreeing with or inviting..just that you say "this is happening and I cannot alter it") or spin and spin and allow the thoughts to create MORE misery. The entire idea is to affect what you can and not let what you cannot keep trying to pull you into its shit.

You have toughts...those thoughts lead to emotions...your job...our job...assuming you want to keep living because this is the mind and how it works...is to see that and say "is this a real thing or an old thing I can't change or a POSSIBLE new thing I don't know will happen" and then act accordingly. If you can change it...work to change it. If you cannot...push it out. Over and over. it gets easier to do the more you do it. Some people claim you can reach a point where its automatic to live totally aware and you don't HAVE to do it. I don't know about that yet as I am not even close IF it's possible.

 

[HGL91]

Positive thinking and saying positive statements makes me anxious because I know I'm lying to myself and others.

 

[Misanthrope]

Nothing in the "thoughts and emotions are not real" idea says that EVERYTHING is not real. The thing is most of the times we believe we are being punched in the face....we are not. It's imaginary. It's felt the same emotionally because we allow our mind to take over. This isn't some idea that nothing matters and its all illusory. It's basically the whole "focus on the things you can fix and accept the things you cannot" idea applied to the present moment. You cannot solve past damages. It's natural to think about them, and we do have to live with their effects, but its wasted time and pain to dwell. Same with future fears. Yes...act to deal with real and present issues. If you cannot act then you have two choices...accept them (acceptance doesn't mean agreeing with or inviting..just that you say "this is happening and I cannot alter it") or spin and spin and allow the thoughts to create MORE misery. The entire idea is to affect what you can and not let what you cannot keep trying to pull you into its shit.

You have toughts...those thoughts lead to emotions...your job...our job...assuming you want to keep living because this is the mind and how it works...is to see that and say "is this a real thing or an old thing I can't change or a POSSIBLE new thing I don't know will happen" and then act accordingly. If you can change it...work to change it. If you cannot...push it out. Over and over. it gets easier to do the more you do it. Some people claim you can reach a point where its automatic to live totally aware and you don't HAVE to do it. I don't know about that yet as I am not even close IF it's possible.

I agree with you. I was referencing the twisted inverse. That being told to just have positive thoughts while something is literally punching you in the face. Is not going to resolve anything by reframing how you feel about being punched in the face. Some things are just bad and can only be avoided. Irritatingly some sources of advice on positive thinking and brain retraining invoke magical thinking. That if you believe it you can reshape reality and turn fists to sponges. Or even worse you are choosing to be punched by fists because you are not positive enough.

A lot of woo sites will take genuine scientific concepts and then attach woo to them. Before it was Quantum mechanics why you are a secret deity and can reshape your universe. Now it is Neuroplasticity being jumped on.

However, looking at the above site. It seems pretty grounded in current understanding. Although I haven't read everything there. I find some of the absolutist statements on that site a bit irritating. However, nothing smacks of new-age woo. Sure it is trying to sell you things, but what isn't these days. Seems pretty credible if you are of the mind to try it. Although I suspect a lot of people who have washed up on this site have already exhausted much of what it has to say and offer. Only to come up empty.

 

[oopswronglife]

A lot of woo sites will take genuine scientific concepts and then attach woo to them. Before it was Quantum mechanics why you are a secret deity and can reshape your universe. Now it is Neuroplasticity being jumped on.

That's why I like Tolle and his simplicity. He basically says this is the obvious thing we all know but don't want to face about our own minds, thoughts, emotions and the world. It's the underlying message of all religions and spiritual things before people twist them up for "reasons". He goes right up to the limit of practical sense, and stops short before crossing into lunatic territory like "wish for a Ferarri and it will come to you from the universe" etc people do so often. They take the message and try to make it somehow fit into their current egos rather than getting it at all. Even with him there is a fan base that can be mental and go overboard for many reasons, and people have built up a business around him, while he still wears the same boring clothes and lives what he preaches. He seems as decent as one can be. Even if he turned out to be horrid somehow and diddling kids, the message is real. People mess things up, corrupt them so often. I'd never buy an app or some Silicon Valley preaching nonsense because they are just taking the simple truths and trying to profit from them or feel special about them. The real shame is people see all that shit on top and get turned off by it and never see the real message.

 

[pole]

i agree with this to an extent. yeah one of the reasons ANYONES gonna get better if they tried is changing their current ways, including their thought process. everyone here is EXTREMELY NEGATIVE, has a extremely negative way of thinking; you're not gonna get better with this thinking.

the thing is, some people are just too far gone; they've gone through so much, haven't had anyone to tell them otherwise, so they start believing these negative thoughts and voices in their head telling them there this way, they should do this, etc. and someone enduring this over a long period of time, ultimately succumbs to this and drowns in their own thoughts and sadness eventually.

not having that person to tell you otherwise, to snap you out of it. being alone, u just condition urself to believing these thoughts, and they stick with you the longer you drown yoursslf in them.

So for them to say it ever so easy, is the problem i have; it just isnt as easy as they say it is. Thats the problem. its definitely the right idea, but the wrong way in tackling it and getting it across. It makes people struggling think, "shit here we go again, another person undervaluing what were going through, thinking its that easy to change!".

some people dont need to hear these things. they just genuinly wanna be heard and understood; not fed these positive phrases, to enforce some type of positivity. really wanting to understood someones hurt and sadness, being neutral, and being there for them as a listener to their problems goes a long way then just throwing blindless positivity at them; cause quiet frankly, we've all endured blindless positivity, "things get better! Hold on!"

fuck that, we just wanna be heard, understood and embraced for what we have and are going through, in a genuine matter.

 

[oopswronglife]

So for them to say it ever so easy, is the problem i have; it just isnt as easy as they say it is. Thats the problem. its definitely the right idea, but the wrong way in tackling it and getting it across. It makes people struggling think, "shit here we go again, another person undervaluing what were going through, thinking its that easy to change!".

some people dont need to hear these things. they just genuinly wanna be heard and understood; not fed these positive phrases, to enforce some type of positivity. really wanting to understood someones hurt and sadness, being neutral, and being there for them as a listener to their problems goes a long way then just throwing blindless positivity at them; cause quiet frankly, we've all endured blindless positivity, "things get better! Hold on!"

Take it a step further and CHOOSE to stop caring what those people say and think. Yes we want them to get it..to know its not as easy as they say. Wanting that...and KNOWING it's not gonna happen because they don't get it...is created pain. You can keep saying "its bullshit they dont get it...I want them to get it" but that doesn't make it happen and you just get more upset. All you can do without making it worse for yourself is try to explain it (trying to solve the prolem), if they won't accept that then all you can do is accept that they aren't willing or able to and move on. That might mean move on from them entirely...or just know you can't expect understanding from them on this issue. Usually we just keep spinning in the anger, fear, frustration about how unfair it is because we want to win...be right...prove to them how real our problems are. It's all wasted energy. You cannot make other people believe and do things if they choose not to...we can only affect our own reactions. Personally it's never helped me in any serious way to fight and seemingly "win" such an issue. My problems are still there after the other person admits them...and they still don't REALLY get it.

I am not some preacher or spiritual guide. I have made all the same arguments and dismissals in the past anyone does when these things come up. I have just had enough experience to face what is real and what is me choosing to believe is real. I can better filter out the messages from the bullshit so often built up around them and apply the useful parts. It really does help to face your mind/thoughts and use strategies to try and change it. If it helps enough at the end remains to be seen...but it does help.

 

[pole]

Take it a step further and CHOOSE to stop caring what those people say and think. Yes we want them to get it..to know its not as easy as they say. Wanting that...and KNOWING it's not gonna happen because they don't get it...is created pain. You can keep saying "its bullshit they dont get it...I want them to get it" but that doesn't make it happen and you just get more upset. All you can do without making it worse for yourself is try to explain it (trying to solve the prolem), if they won't accept that then all you can do is accept that they aren't willing or able to and move on. That might mean move on from them entirely...or just know you can't expect understanding from them on this issue. Usually we just keep spinning in the anger, fear, frustration about how unfair it is because we want to win...be right...prove to them how real our problems are. It's all wasted energy.

but it can be proven and shown, thats the thing. there arent many people in this world genuinly WILLING to understand ones problem, but they can be found, you can found one.

i agree, its a neverending cycle, especially for someone who's gone through it for years, its like, everlasting to someone in some cases.

but i definitely think this cycle can be broken through, when you find that genuine support system. i had literally the same way of thinking, until i met someone whos really my brother, my most important person in the world. i had an AMAZING support system at work, because they were going through sadness and pain. I had never felt really understood, and empathized towards in my life before this year; but i found support systems, genuine ones.

you have to find them, sometimes they come to you, sometimes they dont. but its hard to really condition urself to not care, to feel numb. i tried, really really hard, but these people somehow came across me oddly enough through my darkest times.

in a way, i still have this mindset of not caring though. i use to care a ton about what people thought about me, and im slowly conditioning myself to not giving a shit anymore about what others think.

 

[Misanthrope]

That's why I like Tolle and his simplicity. He basically says this is the obvious thing we all know but don't want to face about our own minds, thoughts, emotions and the world. It's the underlying message of all religions and spiritual things before people twist them up for "reasons". He goes right up to the limit of practical sense, and stops short before crossing into lunatic territory like "wish for a Ferarri and it will come to you from the universe" etc people do so often. They take the message and try to make it somehow fit into their current egos rather than getting it at all. Even with him there is a fan base that can be mental and go overboard for many reasons, and people have built up a business around him, while he still wears the same boring clothes and lives what he preaches. He seems as decent as one can be. Even if he turned out to be horrid somehow and diddling kids, the message is real. People mess things up, corrupt them so often. I'd never buy an app or some Silicon Valley preaching nonsense because they are just taking the simple truths and trying to profit from them or feel special about them. The real shame is people see all that shit on top and get turned off by it and never see the real message.

Can't say I am really a fan of Tolle for a host of reasons. However, I respect you derive value from his viewpoint so won't comment further. I will instead wish you all the best, whatever form that best takes.

Peace.

 

[oopswronglife]

you have to find them, sometimes they come to you, sometimes they dont. but its hard to really condition urself to not care, to feel numb. i tried, really really hard, but these people somehow came across me oddly enough through my darkest times.

You aren't understanding what I am meaning. It's not about going numb. It's about realizing that you cannot change someone else who isn't willing, and mostly forcing that change doesnt help you as you imagine anyway, so continuing to spin in anger or frustration about that hurts you and adds pain. It's not being a robot and not having thoughts and emotions. That's not possible. It's about examining those thoughts and emotions and either acting on the root causes of them if possible...or accepting they are based on fantasy/focus on past or uncertain events and pushing them out. None of this makes life some perfect thing...but its the only choice being human other than letting the thoughts and emotions drive you completely and we all know how that goes.

an't say I am really a fan of Tolle for a host of reasons

I'm not a fan...I think he just explains this idea better than most. I bet I could outline the issues you have with him and probably have thought some of them myself. It's not about who is saying it...it's about the fact that we create so much pain on top of the stuff we cannot control because we won't face our thoughts and emotions and try to shape them. Why add pain? It's like if the toilet overflows and instead of trying to stop it or move away you sit down in the poo and think for hours about how much it sucks to be sitting in the stinking, disgusting poo and being more angry and irritated the longer you do. It's already overflowed...you cannot change that. You can try to solve the problem. You can move away from it. But most of us just sit down in the poo and get angry or whatever...and shout at or mock anyone who suggests we do otherwise. We find reasons they have no place to suggest such things...try to dismantle them to invalidate the idea...all because for the mind its feels easier to sit in the poo and be mad and maybe what they are telling us to do isn't perfect or they don't understand how bad it stinks. It does stink...but sitting in it and being pissed off doesn't unclog it or make it stink less.

 

[pole]

You aren't understanding what I am meaning. It's not about going numb. It's about realizing that you cannot change someone else who isn't willing, and mostly forcing that change doesnt help you as you imagine anyway, so continuing to spin in anger or frustration about that hurts you and adds pain. It's not being a robot and not having thoughts and emotions. That's not possible. It's about examining those thoughts and emotions and either acting on the root causes of them if possible...or accepting they are based on fantasy/focus on past or uncertain events and pushing them out. None of this makes life some perfect thing...but its the only choice being human other than letting the thoughts and emotions drive you completely and we all know how that goes.



I'm not a fan...I think he just explains this idea better than most. I bet I could outline the issues you have with him. It's not about who is saying it...it's about the fact that we create so much pain on top of the stuff we cannot control because we won't face our thoughts and emotions and try to shape them.

somewhat agree, but thats purely from moving on from that one person who isnt willing to understand. You dont need someone like that in ur life anyways. if they fail to understand u and ur problems, i agree, dont invest ur emotions and energy into forcing them to be someone they arent, that you want them to be.

but for every person like that, theres one whos the opppsite of just that and more than willing to be there for you in a genuine matter.

 

[Rollo]

No thoughts are not facts. Thoughts are recognition of facts. At any given time you can directly observe only a small part of Universe. All the rest you recognise as existing (or as it did exist/will exist) without directly experiencing it. Most notably the existence of space outside of your room, existence of people, countries etc. It's not imagination, in the sense that sci-fi novel is imagination. It's reality. It does involve judgement but some judgements are rock solid. Like would it be healthy to doubt existence of space outside your room? Or when you're in store looking at apples - would it be healthy to doubt whether they're real apples or holograms? Hardly. Thought is an entirely healthy and neccessary connection of man and reality. Personally I wouldn't try to undermine this connection when some part of reality presents a problem for you. Won't solve a problem and can create a new one.

The thing is most of the times we believe we are being punched in the face....we are not. It's imaginary.

I don't know about you but every single time I thought I was punched in the face - I actually was. A guy pummeling your face is not something you can easily mistake for something else.

 

[oopswronglife]

I don't know about you but every single time I thought I was punched in the face - I actually was. A guy pummeling your face is not something you can easily mistake for something else.

You are being obtuse and literal on purpose. You know I didn't mean every time someone is literaly punching you. You know I was saying that we imagine this WILL happen, or turn someone being rude into that etc. Then we manufacture a whole series of ideas about it. All in our heads. Everyone does this every day.

If your major pains in life are literally getting punched in the face regularly that seems like a pretty simple problem to solve.

You dont need someone like that in ur life anyways. if they fail to understand u and ur problems, i agree, dont invest ur emotions and energy into forcing them to be someone they arent, that you want them to be.

For sure it sucks not to have someone who gets this...and you. And we all know you cannot always move on from contact with people. In those cases...if they won't hear you. Your two choices are to keep fighting and adding pain to yourself....or give up on them for this and interact as you need.

 

[Rollo]

You are being obtuse and literal on purpose. You know I didn't mean every time someone is literaly punching you. You know I was saying that we imagine this WILL happen, or turn someone being rude into that etc. Then we manufacture a whole series of ideas about it. All in our heads. Everyone does this every day.

If your major pains in life are literally getting punched in the face regularly that seems like a pretty simple problem to solve.

Not being obtuse in the least - just incorrectly assumed you expressed yourself properly. Believing you ARE being punched in the face and believing you WILL be punched in the face - totally different thoughts. So next time just kinda use future form when referring to future. They didn't create this linguistic distinction for no reason.

Sure you may believe you will get punched in the face, and yet you won't be. But it's not 'idea in your head'. It's your vision of future. Future will come and humans attend to it and predict in what exact way it will come. But now you see future as involving some pain and suddenly it all becomes an imagination? When you can't handle the thought the problem is 'can't handle' part not the 'thought' part. And trying to solve the problem by messing with the thought process - I wouldn't do it. To each his own though.

 

[ThriveOrDie]

There is some truth to it but it might not work for everyone. I used Faster EFT to rewrite my memories. It is based partly on neuroplasticity. My brain may be more suggestible than others as evidenced by the fact that I was raised in a cult and didn't get out until I was about 37 yo. To an extent you can shift how you feel about your hardships. I've been physically ill for 15 years. I had to take charge of my health b/c doctors were clueless so I learned about natural healing on my own. I could comfort myself by telling myself I was learning and growing so much and I was learning how to empathize with others who were struggling. But after 15 years it's just like I don't give a fuck about learning, I just want the suffering to end. So for a while being positive did help me keep it together. I've also had many instances where I freaked out about a situation and thought it was the end of the world and it turned out better than I thought. Sometimes your life is just shit and being positive isn't going to help. I would at least try to find something positive in your life but I think being honest with yourself is more important.