Discussion Unrestricted Muslim access to Temple Mount during Ramadan

[Pessimist]

What do you think about this decision? In my opinion, this could quickly turn into a catastrophe considering the fact that the vast majority (85%) of Palestinians support the October 7 Hamas massacre. Many Palestinian Muslims could take advantage of this decision in order to try and carry out terrorist attacks inside of Israel.

 

[pole]

i am going to address your post in two parts.

1) the topic of adequate access to Al Aqsa Mosque during Ramadan.

2) the problem with how these threads discussing the Israeli-Palestine conflict are being framed.

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restricting access to a holy site during the month of Ramadan would only escalate tensions across the region. it is also a violation of a person's civil liberties.

there's a reason why support for restrictions on the holy site is backed only by disgusting far right extremists like Ben Gvir, who have no regard for both Israelis and Palestinians.

you mention Palestinians using it as an opportunity to launch attacks in Israel, when the only attacks that happen in and around Al Aqsa are by extreme Israeli settlers storming the holy site and causing havoc, the same ones that also want the mosque to be destroyed and replaced with a Jewish temple. not to mention IDF raids over the years, attacking worshippers.

thus, allowing access to the holy site during Ramadan is for the benefit of both Israelis and Palestinians. what we need is to reduce tensions, not fuel them. what restricting access would do is escalate the situation and protect no one.

finally, i want to address this fact that you presented below.

considering the fact that the vast majority (85%) of Palestinians support the October 7 Hamas massacre

the way that the article has framed this is harmful because it misrepresents what the polls actually found, and doing so functions to vilify and "other" an entire population of people.

the surveys conducted by the PCPSR in both the West Bank and Gaza during the truce in December found that more than 70% of Palestinians believe that Hamas's decision to launch attacks on Israel on October 7th were "correct".

the problem is that both you and the article have misconstrued this as support for the atrocities committed by Hamas. it's important to point out that Palestinians do not believe that diplomacy and negotations are legitimate options (rightfully so) and instead believe that only violence and armed struggle are the means to fight occupation and end the decades long seige over Gaza.

this is further highlighted by the follow-up questions that were part of surveys conducted during the truce, which the article conveniently leaves out, which isn't surprising considering it has pro-Israel bias.

nonetheless, the survey also found that 80% of respondents believe that killing women and children in their homes is a war crime. 85% of respondents had also not seen videos of Hamas atrocities that were shown on international outlets, which is why only 10% of respondents in that exact survey believe Hamas had committed war crimes on October 7th. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/21/middleeast/palestinians-back-hamas-survey-intl-cmd/index.html

it's also important to acknowledge the context for much of these numbers. the support for armed struggle in both Gaza and especially the West Bank had been growing for years, which is due to the continued illegal expansion of settlements, the egregious actions of Israel's far right coalition, and the ineffectiveness of the Palestinian Authority, fuelling support for Hamas and other resistance movements.

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finally, the point of my entire response is to also encourage you to be more mindful with how you frame these threads. it is a sensitive topic, and often times, some of these posts come off as disparaging an entire group of people.

take for example these statistics below.

83% of Jewish Israelis support the voluntary emigration of Palestinians from Gaza, while 57.5% believe the Israeli army is using "too little firepower". in addition, 87% support the war in Gaza and 75% rejected the Biden administration's calls to change the IDF's strategy to one that "reduces the heavy bombing of densely populated areas."

now, imagine if i created a thread and used these numbers to allude to the Israeli population as people that support the plausible genocide and killing of men, women, and children in Gaza.

that would NOT be tolerated. the way this assertion is presented as an undeniable fact makes it close-ended, which wouldn't leave room for any healthy discussion, and would only result in arguments.

it's one thing to present the numbers and leave the discussion open-ended, so it allows for a productive conversation. however, regardless of where you stand on the matter, we must be wary about how we choose to frame these arguments because again, threads like this that come off as collectively responsibilizing a population of people do more harm than good.

its crucial to emphasize that all of what i've said above applies to both discussions around Israeli's AND Palestinians. this isn't the first thread i've seen "othering" a group of people. it has also happened concerning Jewish Israelis when discussing the conflict.

at the same time, i understand that this is the nature of the politics sub forum. it will always be controversial, can get messy, and is much harder to control when it is a big topic like the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

nonetheless, there should be zero tolerance for posts that are framed in this manner. it's important that we try to improve on how we discuss both Israeli's and Palestinian people, ensuring that both groups are spoken on with respect.

 

[Pessimist]

restricting access to a holy site during the month of Ramadan would only escalate tensions across the region. it is also a violation of a person's civil liberties.

I personally regard religious liberty as the least important civil liberty, especially in places like Israel and Palestine where both religious Zionism and Islamism are used to justify violence and support a holy war.

 

[pole]

I personally regard religious liberty as the least important civil liberty, especially in places like Israel and Palestine where both religious Zionism and Islamism are used to justify violence and support a holy war.

I can see where you're coming from.

at the same time, I don't believe religious Zionism underpins actions against Palestinians as much as the intent on continuing to subjugate these people, and what comes with that, which is the continued illegal expansion of settlements and the prevention of Palestinian statehood. these are actions taken to limit political solutions to the equation.

it goes hand in hand with what underpins Palestinian factions. religion is important yes, but it doesn't drive their actions to a degree that resistance to occupation does. hence, the reason you can't simply eradicate a Hamas or Hezbollah and why it is a zero-sum game for Israel.

with that said, it's important that access be given to Al Aqsa during Ramadan. the problem is that this doesn't completely lift restrictions. I'm not sure how you feel about Netanyahu, but his coalition has done this in previous years too. it is under the guise that yes, there is access to the holy site, but it is in "limited numbers", which helps him please the likes of Ben Gvir and Smotrich, who can continue to police Al Aqsa mosque.

it's also to adhere to the demands of the U.S., who understand that operations during Ramadan will cause havoc.

regardless of how you feel about the right to worship as a civil liberty, I think we can partially agree that it is necessary for there to be access to the holy site during Ramadan, in order to reduce the spread of the conflict across the region. anything less than this would also be counter-productive to ceasefire negotiations and detrimental to the lives of Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank.

but again, this all depends on what Netanyahu wants to do. my guess is that he could care less and is focused on Rafah and Lebanon while doing the bare minimum to appease the Americans.

 

[Pessimist]

I can see where you're coming from.

at the same time, I don't believe religious Zionism underpins actions against Palestinians as much as the intent on continuing to subjugate these people, and what comes with that, which is the continued illegal expansion of settlements and the prevention of Palestinian statehood. these are actions taken to limit political solutions to the equation.

it goes hand in hand with what underpins Palestinian factions. religion is important yes, but it doesn't drive their actions to a degree that resistance to occupation does. hence, the reason you can't simply eradicate a Hamas or Hezbollah and why it is a zero-sum game for Israel.

with that said, it's important that access be given to Al Aqsa during Ramadan. the problem is that this doesn't completely lift restrictions. I'm not sure how you feel about Netanyahu, but his coalition has done this in previous years too. it is under the guise that yes, there is access to the holy site, but it is in "limited numbers", which helps him please the likes of Ben Gvir and Smotrich, who can continue to police Al Aqsa mosque.

it's also to adhere to the demands of the U.S., who understand that operations during Ramadan will cause havoc.

regardless of how you feel about the right to worship as a civil liberty, I think we can partially agree that it is necessary for there to be access to the holy site during Ramadan, in order to reduce the spread of the conflict across the region. anything less than this would also be counter-productive to ceasefire negotiations and detrimental to the lives of Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank.

but again, this all depends on what Netanyahu wants to do. my guess is that he could care less and is focused on Rafah and Lebanon while doing the bare minimum to appease the Americans.

The thing about Bibi is that he knows how to speak well and appeal to conservatives and liberals alike. He gets support from both the centre-right and the far-right, and from both secular and religious people. However, the current Israeli government is literally Judaist right now: Religious Zionism, Otzma Yehudit, Shas, United Torah Judaism and Noam are all religious Jews (Judaists). All of them are right-wing to far-right. On the other hand, it's very rare for a secular Israeli party to be far-right and support the settler interests of "Greater Israel".

 

[pole]

The thing about Bibi is that he knows how to speak well and appeal to conservatives and liberals alike. He gets support from both the centre-right and the far-right, and from both secular and religious people. However, the current Israeli government is literally Judaist right now: Religious Zionism, Otzma Yehudit, Shas, United Torah Judaism and Noam are all religious Jews (Judaists). All of them are right-wing to far-right. On the other hand, it's very rare for a secular Israeli party to be far-right and support the settler interests of "Greater Israel".

yeah, I think they do a good job getting behind religious Zionism and the other kinds, while also doing what they want and making sure it gets done. it's easy to use religion as a tool in that way.

for instance, I read about how some of the captives families, who are strong Netanyahu supporters, while also super religious, were fine with their loved ones being sacrificed for the greater good of Israel's military operations.

these specific families voices were amplified by Netanyahus camp to drown out the criticism from lots of the other families, in order to justify the military campaign over negotiations.

what do you think Bibi's end game is? how do you think he's playing his cards at the moment?

 

[Ambivalent1]

The third temple will never be built. Judaism should recognize this as a failed prophecy and dissolve itself.

 

[Pessimist]

yeah, I think they do a good job getting behind religious Zionism and the other kinds, while also doing what they want and making sure it gets done. it's easy to use religion as a tool in that way.

for instance, I read about how some of the captives families, who are strong Netanyahu supporters, while also super religious, were fine with their loved ones being sacrificed for the greater good of Israel's military operations.

these specific families voices were amplified by Netanyahus camp to drown out the criticism from lots of the other families, in order to justify the military campaign over negotiations.

what do you think Bibi's end game is? how do you think he's playing his cards at the moment?

I would like him to resign just like Golda Meir had to resign after the surprise attack from Egypt and Syria. Yair Lapid, the Israeli Leader of the Opposition and a member of centrist Yesh Atid party, gave the example of Britain, which saw leadership change during World War II.

Will Netanyahu quit as PM amid Israel's war with Hamas? There's a WWII example

Calls for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to resign have intensified amid the war with Hamas. Opposition leader Yair Lapid says there's the example of wartime Britain, which saw Churchill take over. Will Netanyahu resign?

www.indiatoday.in

The third temple will never be built. Judaism should recognize this as a failed prophecy and dissolve itself.

I'm Jewish by ethnicity and nationality, not by religion, so a "Third Temple" sounds very silly to me.

 

[pole]

I would like him to resign just like Golda Meir had to resign after the surprise attack from Egypt and Syria. Yair Lapid, the Israeli Leader of the Opposition and a member of centrist Yesh Atid party, gave the example of Britain, which saw leadership change during World War II.

I don't know, I just can't picture Netanyahu resigning so easily.

not only is his political career on the line, but that's all that is left considering what lies ahead is his corruption trial and possible imprisonment. at this point, holding onto the power he has left and stretching the war out as long as possible is his lifeline. this makes unpredictable and dangerous.

I saw recently that Gantz visited the U.S. and met with officials, to which Bibi's camp was furious about. so I assume that behind the scenes, there's momentum building that is favourable for the likes of Gantz or even Lapid to take over and lead. I'm fine with anyone but Bibi, even if they're not the best either.

but, I'm curious as to how Bibi's fall will unfold, especially at such a crucial time for the country and region as a whole.

 

[Pessimist]

I don't know, I just can't picture Netanyahu resigning so easily.

not only is his political career on the line, but that's all that is left considering what lies ahead is his corruption trial and possible imprisonment. at this point, holding onto the power he has left and stretching the war out as long as possible is his lifeline. this makes unpredictable and dangerous.

I saw recently that Gantz visited the U.S. and met with officials, to which Bibi's camp was furious about. so I assume that behind the scenes, there's momentum building that is favourable for the likes of Gantz or even Lapid to take over and lead. I'm fine with anyone but Bibi, even if they're not the best either.

but, I'm curious as to how Bibi's fall will unfold, especially at such a crucial time for the country and region as a whole.

Regarding Gantz: I was happy to see that he didn't go full-on Bibi and chose not to expel Ofer Cassif from the Knesset the other day. However, I didn't like how quickly Gantz's National Unity announced that it would form a war cabinet with Likud and join the coalition following the Hamas attack. It makes me view National Unity as somewhat right-leaning.

 

[pole]

not to expel Ofer Cassif from the Knesset the other day. However, I didn't like how quickly Gantz's National Unity announced that it would form a war cabinet with Likud and join the coalition following the Hamas attack.

I don't get this either other than for their own selfish reasons?

being in the spotlight next to Bibi and demonstrating to the Israeli public, the stark contrast between the two and why Netanyahu is an incapable leader.

who knows, these politicians are cunning and always thinking ahead. I feel like he probably led Bibi into a few rabbit holes with dead ends, to make him look stupid. we see it now, with him meeting U.S. officials alone, likely making Netanyahu seem unfit to lead and presenting himself to allies as the better option. that's my guess.

I remember from the very beginning reading about rifts in the war cabinet between Gantz, Bibi, and especially Gallant. I'm surprised that it has not broken apart yet.

Cassif is the anti-war Knesset member right? I remember reading about it a little bit. so Gantz defended him or something and didn't give him the boot?

 

[Pessimist]

I don't get this either other than for their own selfish reasons?

being in the spotlight next to Bibi and demonstrating to the Israeli public, the stark contrast between the two and why Netanyahu is an incapable leader.

who knows, these politicians are cunning and always thinking ahead. I feel like he probably led Bibi into a few rabbit holes with dead ends, to make him look stupid. we see it now, with him meeting U.S. officials alone, likely making Netanyahu seem unfit to lead and presenting himself to allies as the better option. that's my guess.

I remember from the very beginning reading about rifts in the war cabinet between Gantz, Bibi, and especially Gallant. I'm surprised that it has not broken apart yet.

Cassif is the anti-war Knesset member right? I remember reading about it a little bit. so Gantz defended him or something and didn't give him the boot?

Ofer Cassif is a communist and anti-Zionist Knesset member. He was accused of treason after supporting South Africa's genocide case against Israel.

Who is Ofer Cassif and why is he supporting South Africa at the ICJ?

An Israeli politician is taking a bold stance against the genocide he says his country is perpetrating in Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

Of course I believe that Cassif is way too radical, but expelling him from the Knesset is an anti-democratic move. Both Gantz and Lapid chose not to show up to the vote (which is technically the same as voting against).

 

[pole]

Ofer Cassif is a communist and anti-Zionist Knesset member. He was accused of treason after supporting South Africa's genocide case against Israel.

Who is Ofer Cassif and why is he supporting South Africa at the ICJ?

An Israeli politician is taking a bold stance against the genocide he says his country is perpetrating in Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

Of course I believe that Cassif is way too radical, but expelling him from the Knesset is an anti-democratic move. Both Gantz and Lapid chose not to show up to the vote (which is technically the same as voting against).

View attachment 131236

since we're on the topic of anti-war, i understand that there is only one movement like this in Israel. it consists of both Palestinians and Israeli's.

anyway, i saw earlier today that this anti-war movement is planning to push aid into Gaza tomorrow at the same border crossings where dozens of far-right settlers have been camped up to prevent aid from getting in, while being treated softly by the army. many of them tried to even storm into Gaza the other day too.

it will be interesting to see what happens and how the war cabinet responds, including the likes of Gantz, Gallant, and even Lapid.

 

[Pessimist]

since we're on the topic of anti-war, i understand that there is only one movement like this in Israel. it consists of both Palestinians and Israeli's.

anyway, i saw earlier today that this anti-war movement is planning to push aid into Gaza tomorrow at the same border crossings where dozens of far-right settlers have been camped up to prevent aid from getting in, while being treated softly by the army. many of them tried to even storm into Gaza the other day too.

it will be interesting to see what happens and how the war cabinet responds, including the likes of Gantz, Gallant, and even Lapid.

I'm sure it's not the only one. Even inside of the Knesset, 10 out of 120 members are anti-Zionists:
5 Islamists from Ra'am party
+ 4 communists from Hadash party
+ an Arab nationalist from Ta'al party

Regarding the humanitarian aid, maybe you will find this interesting:



Note: The translation "ombudsman" is actually not accurate here. Cassif sent it to Gali Baharav-Miara, a woman that currently serves as the Attorney General of Israel.

 

[pole]

I'm sure it's not the only one. Even inside of the Knesset, 10 out of 120 members are anti-Zionists:
5 Islamists from Ra'am party
+ 4 communists from Hadash party
+ an Arab nationalist from Ta'al party

Regarding the humanitarian aid, maybe you will find this interesting:

View attachment 131239

Note: The translation "ombudsman" is actually not accurate here. Cassif sent it to Gali Baharav-Miara, a woman that currently serves as the Attorney General of Israel.

there are probably smaller ones yes, but it's the biggest anti-war movement in Israel. they've been doing marches in Tel Aviv for months now and it seems like each time, the crowds grow.

thanks for sharing. i never knew much about Cassif or whether there were a number of anti-Zionists within the knesset, even just members that are simply against the war in order to preserve Israel's interests for the long run.

i wonder how much influence attorney generals would have. i don't really have faith in the societal insitutions in Israel, although striking down Netanyahu's hope for a judicial overhaul was nice to see.

 

[Pessimist]

there are probably smaller ones yes, but it's the biggest anti-war movement in Israel. they've been doing marches in Tel Aviv for months now and it seems like each time, the crowds grow.

thanks for sharing. i never knew much about Cassif or whether there were a number of anti-Zionists within the knesset, even just members that are simply against the war in order to preserve Israel's interests for the long run.

i wonder how much influence attorney generals would have. i don't really have faith in the societal insitutions in Israel, although striking down Netanyahu's hope for a judicial overhaul was nice to see.

I personally believe in a permanent ceasefire, but it needs to come with the release of all the kidnapped Israelis. Ending the war before they are released makes no sense to me.