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P

pyx

Wizard
Jun 5, 2024
618
I am trying to get my life together. I want to, in future, do a double major, though I am concerned over whether or not I will have the motivation to do so. I've looked a bit into it and preferably I would do something like math and philosophy.

Has anyone here done/is doing a double major? How was the workload? Anyone specifically do math or philosophy, and if so how was it?
 
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Ash

Ash

What dreams may come?
Oct 4, 2021
1,758
Is that like joint honours here in the UK?

I might be completely off the mark here but if you have an idea of where you'd like to study, maybe ask some students doing similar combinations how they find it? Or if there's a recruitment officer or something similar, maybe ask them?

Since you're on this site, I'd definitely recommend leaning towards institutions with excellent reputations for student welfare and strong communities, not just in terms of academia but every day life. It's very easy to become invisible on campus and become isolated, especially in the modern era of email and digital uploads so look for genuine pastoral support as well as good teaching. Don't be scared to ask existing students how they've found it when they've had problems. Not just major stuff but dealing with stress around deadlines etc.
 
D

damyon

Specialist
Mar 6, 2024
344
Have you thought about your end goal? Will a double major help you achieve it?
College is also about networking, not just studying, as Ash notes.

math and philosophy
Why are you interested in math and philosophy specifically, though?
 
P

pyx

Wizard
Jun 5, 2024
618
Is that like joint honours here in the UK?

I might be completely off the mark here but if you have an idea of where you'd like to study, maybe ask some students doing similar combinations how they find it? Or if there's a recruitment officer or something similar, maybe ask them?

Since you're on this site, I'd definitely recommend leaning towards institutions with excellent reputations for student welfare and strong communities, not just in terms of academia but every day life. It's very easy to become invisible on campus and become isolated, especially in the modern era of email and digital uploads so look for genuine pastoral support as well as good teaching. Don't be scared to ask existing students how they've found it when they've had problems. Not just major stuff but dealing with stress around deadlines etc.
I do have a rough idea of where I'd like to study, though I have no idea of how I would get in contact with students there. I know virtually nobody.
But my main concern is the potential workload and if it is sustainable or not.

Have you thought about your end goal? Will a double major help you achieve it?
College is also about networking, not just studying, as Ash notes.


Why are you interested in math and philosophy specifically, though?
Not really to be honest. In theory some kind of academic or writer, though I don't see it as tenable to study something like literature/journalism or teaching.

I enjoy mathematics as it helped me through some pretty rough times. I used to study number theory and groups in my free time, though I've forgotten a large portion of it now. Still, I felt that at some point I had learnt something which made studying mathematics much easier, which sort of related to my interests in philosophy. I guess in terms of the comixture of both subjects I would lean into something like analytical philosophy, which I have a particular interest in.
 
R

ryba

Member
Apr 13, 2024
21
didn't double major, but i was pretty close just with electives. if someone like me was able to get close without meaning to, i'm sure you'd be able to do it, especially since you at least have a general idea of what you wanna do. don't worry too much about the workload; if you're passionate about what you're doing, it won't seem bad at all. the only other big thing is to make sure that you don't get so hyperfixated on the idea of needing a double major that you refuse to change from that path no matter what. if you go the math/philosophy route and end up hating it for whatever reason, there's nothing wrong with changing to something else you actually enjoy. whatever you decide to do, good luck!
 
5nicotine

5nicotine

Member
Jan 3, 2024
27
I'm a mathematician so I could probably answer some questions, but from what I've understood the curriculum in the US (where you're presumably from) is quite different from many european countries (where I'm from).

Just in general I'd say that once you have actual math courses (proving things and not just "calculus") it can be quite taxing to do the exercises for multiple courses every week. Also a bachelor's in math, especially for a weaker education system such as the US, really does not prepare you for anything. Getting a master's is standard here and even after that I feel like I barely know anything. If I'd done anything differently, I'd have done more extracurricular reading in math itself to be better prepared for starting my phd.

Math is very motivating to read, but if you have depression weighing you down I'd just focus on math. I don't know much about philosophy, but I've felt that just doing math has given me a good basis for reading a lot of philosophy related to it. atm when I'm off work and don't have the energy to read more work stuff I tend to read lighter philosophical or historical stuff related to math. I've been pretty happy with the clarity I've gained from it i.e. math is useless, but it doesn't matter.

On that note math is very good for my depression as it seems to be immune to anhedonia due to it being so fundamentally interesting and it being very much free from the uncertainty that causes a lot of my problems. Of course it's possible to argue that it also amplifies the anhedonia in other things and reduces my ability to deal with uncertainty.
 
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L

LittleJem

Visionary
Jul 3, 2019
2,639
My friend did maths and philosophy and enjoyed it. He's a lawyer now.
 
QueerMelancholy

QueerMelancholy

Mage
Jul 29, 2023
534
I tried to do Psychology and Sociology. It's easier if you do two majors in similar fields.
 
P

pyx

Wizard
Jun 5, 2024
618
didn't double major, but i was pretty close just with electives. if someone like me was able to get close without meaning to, i'm sure you'd be able to do it, especially since you at least have a general idea of what you wanna do. don't worry too much about the workload; if you're passionate about what you're doing, it won't seem bad at all. the only other big thing is to make sure that you don't get so hyperfixated on the idea of needing a double major that you refuse to change from that path no matter what. if you go the math/philosophy route and end up hating it for whatever reason, there's nothing wrong with changing to something else you actually enjoy. whatever you decide to do, good luck!
I just hope that I can maintain a passion for it. Of course, I have no qualms about changing subjects, which I suppose is a good thing, though I fear that it may be a consequence of the workload or my ability to perform well in the subject, and not the course proper.
I'm a mathematician so I could probably answer some questions, but from what I've understood the curriculum in the US (where you're presumably from) is quite different from many european countries (where I'm from).

Just in general I'd say that once you have actual math courses (proving things and not just "calculus") it can be quite taxing to do the exercises for multiple courses every week. Also a bachelor's in math, especially for a weaker education system such as the US, really does not prepare you for anything. Getting a master's is standard here and even after that I feel like I barely know anything. If I'd done anything differently, I'd have done more extracurricular reading in math itself to be better prepared for starting my phd.

Math is very motivating to read, but if you have depression weighing you down I'd just focus on math. I don't know much about philosophy, but I've felt that just doing math has given me a good basis for reading a lot of philosophy related to it. atm when I'm off work and don't have the energy to read more work stuff I tend to read lighter philosophical or historical stuff related to math. I've been pretty happy with the clarity I've gained from it i.e. math is useless, but it doesn't matter.

On that note math is very good for my depression as it seems to be immune to anhedonia due to it being so fundamentally interesting and it being very much free from the uncertainty that causes a lot of my problems. Of course it's possible to argue that it also amplifies the anhedonia in other things and reduces my ability to deal with uncertainty.
I'm from Australia, though I imagine it is similar to the US in a few ways. I've been slowly rearing myself towards more mathematical pursuits recently (as I did in the past, before some things happened that made me lose faith), so if you don't mind perhaps some time I'll ask some math related questions. Despite my predilection towards analytical pursuits, I am really quite bad at mathematics. In highschool I practically failed all my courses on the subject and only developed an interest sometime after graduating. So in terms of ability I'm really no better than an average bachelor student studying basic analysis. It's as if I'm overshooting my own interests in favour of more interesting content, despite my own weaknesses in the subject.
My friend did maths and philosophy and enjoyed it. He's a lawyer now.
This seems like a possible route that I could get into. I had a friend who did what I want to do as a pathway into law school.
I tried to do Psychology and Sociology. It's easier if you do two majors in similar fields.
I think that math and philosophy are very similar in many ways, depending on what specifically you want to gain from both. My main purpose of studying the two are to gain a practical and impractical degree, even if a great deal of mathematics may not deal with real-world problem solving. It's, for me, a commitment to suspend my own desires (which would favour liberal art subjects) in favour of a career which might be sustainable. It's a middle ground, essentially. But I'll keep this in mind when applying.
 
T

ThatStateOfMind

Enlightened
Nov 13, 2021
1,238
I agree with what @QueerMelancholy said, two majors in similar fields are good, as some of the requirements overlap. I would say to look into philosophy and math at whatever college you want to go to, a lot share the class requirements and you can check if there's overlap between classes. Philosophy is an good major if you want to go to law school. It's a common one that people use, so I imagine it's a good idea. Law school doesn't have the same requirements as medical school (certain classes need to be taken to get into medical school), and usually you just have to keep a decent GPA. Also, I will say, my perspective is as an American, so I don't know if my information carries over well lol.
 
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5nicotine

5nicotine

Member
Jan 3, 2024
27
I'm from Australia, though I imagine it is similar to the US in a few ways. I've been slowly rearing myself towards more mathematical pursuits recently (as I did in the past, before some things happened that made me lose faith), so if you don't mind perhaps some time I'll ask some math related questions. Despite my predilection towards analytical pursuits, I am really quite bad at mathematics. In highschool I practically failed all my courses on the subject and only developed an interest sometime after graduating. So in terms of ability I'm really no better than an average bachelor student studying basic analysis. It's as if I'm overshooting my own interests in favour of more interesting content, despite my own weaknesses in the subject.
DM me anytime :-)

Don't worry about having been bad at math in high school. Actual mathematics is absolutely and completely different from the stuff there. That's what I learnt when the first course of my bachelor's was the actual proof based analysis/calculus stuff where you get to know *why* the things you've been taught work. I immediately fell in love.

But it's good if you've already apparently read some stuff where you do proofs. Then you know you'll actually be interested.
I think that math and philosophy are very similar in many ways, depending on what specifically you want to gain from both. My main purpose of studying the two are to gain a practical and impractical degree, even if a great deal of mathematics may not deal with real-world problem solving. It's, for me, a commitment to suspend my own desires (which would favour liberal art subjects) in favour of a career which might be sustainable. It's a middle ground, essentially. But I'll keep this in mind when applying.
Math and philosophy is imo a very fitting combo. I wouldn't really trust math to be a practical degree though. You basically need extra skills to get a job. Most people do coding, physics, statistics or some kind of applied mathematics packages. I'd change your plan to rather do math and large minor/double major/second focus in your major in one of those things, but then mostly focus on the more "interesting math" you do in useless fields like geometry (<3), algebra or number theory.

I did statistics as a large minor in my bachelor's, but I'm now trying to learn functional coding to have something practical to fall back on should I not succeed well enough after my phd.

Also I think math is practically a "liberal arts subject" (I have a bad understanding of what it is, but in european terms I'd say math is humanistic), but I understand if you disagree.
 
L

LaughingGoat

Mage
Apr 11, 2024
590
In the US so can't speak specifically to Australia, but generally would recommend taking one as a major and one as a minor if you want education in both as opposed to majoring in both since it will be less credits but will still give you a good base in that subject. Would say figuring out what the jobs options are with either major and what career path you want to pursue. Philosophy is one of those majors where you either end up a professor or author as a career, not too many opportunities outside that besides just taking any job that requires a general degree or going to law school. That being said, never want to discourage anyone from educational interests, so I don't see any of it as a "bad" decision.
 
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T

thenamingofcats

annihilation anxiety
Apr 19, 2024
453
I'm a mathematician so I could probably answer some questions, but from what I've understood the curriculum in the US (where you're presumably from) is quite different from many european countries (where I'm from).

Just in general I'd say that once you have actual math courses (proving things and not just "calculus") it can be quite taxing to do the exercises for multiple courses every week. Also a bachelor's in math, especially for a weaker education system such as the US, really does not prepare you for anything. Getting a master's is standard here and even after that I feel like I barely know anything. If I'd done anything differently, I'd have done more extracurricular reading in math itself to be better prepared for starting my phd.

Math is very motivating to read, but if you have depression weighing you down I'd just focus on math. I don't know much about philosophy, but I've felt that just doing math has given me a good basis for reading a lot of philosophy related to it. atm when I'm off work and don't have the energy to read more work stuff I tend to read lighter philosophical or historical stuff related to math. I've been pretty happy with the clarity I've gained from it i.e. math is useless, but it doesn't matter.

On that note math is very good for my depression as it seems to be immune to anhedonia due to it being so fundamentally interesting and it being very much free from the uncertainty that causes a lot of my problems. Of course it's possible to argue that it also amplifies the anhedonia in other things and reduces my ability to deal with uncertainty.
I'm so curious about math but was held back in elementary school because I struggled with basic arithmetic, constantly mixed up my + and - signs, etc. In college I was put in a conceptual math class that was very exciting, although we were just doing things like Euler's formula. I don't know if math can be explained in words like this but what is it like to do higher level math where you're doing proofs and really getting to think?
Also, I find place value to be very hard to grasp and non-intuitive, do you think that's normal?
 
Scacie

Scacie

She/Her
Feb 24, 2023
238
I'm doing a double major in biology and chemistry right now. I find it manageable, though for my uni there's a minimum GPA youre required to be above to keep your second major. I think its important to get 2 majors youre super interested in so when you study it it feels less like 'work'.
 
5nicotine

5nicotine

Member
Jan 3, 2024
27
I'm so curious about math but was held back in elementary school because I struggled with basic arithmetic, constantly mixed up my + and - signs, etc. In college I was put in a conceptual math class that was very exciting, although we were just doing things like Euler's formula. I don't know if math can be explained in words like this but what is it like to do higher level math where you're doing proofs and really getting to think?
Also, I find place value to be very hard to grasp and non-intuitive, do you think that's normal?
I'm really sorry about everything below. It's very self-indulgent and not very polished or good.

I'm not the best person to ask about what the normal opinion is wrt the place-value notation. A lot of people obviously deal with it daily and live with it, but I'm sure some of them find it hard. I've always been fine with it though of course calculating with numbers is very bothersome. I am very happy to rarely have to see anything other than rational numbers and in them natural numbers larger than five.

However place-value notation is just a very convenient way to pack a lot of abstract info into simple notation and this is an idea that mathematicians rely on to do their work (see the second example below). Humans have very limited working memory. To be able to grasp complicated abstract things which contain too much information for this working memory you have to somehow be able to see the big picture that is composed by all of this small detail. The main tool in this is just building intuition about the things you're working with. This is basically "seeing" or somehow feeling the understanding you have of some mathematical object.

If you're doing some kind of geometrical argument in your head you're in some very general sense seeing your argument happen in your head. The geometrical object you're thinking of might be higher (than three) dimensional or might be too not-nice (somehow too abstractly defined) to have a definable dimension, but you're using your intuition of the dimensions you do know (one-, two- and three-dimensions) and the nice objects in them to help yourself understand the object. This of course has many pitfalls and you spend a lot of time being scared straight by your teachers with pathological examples of how bad and non-intuitive things can happen in the not-nice cases and why you can never assume anything. This never assuming anything and being scared of uncertain things is a fundamental skill in doing math.

(It has also probably worsened my mental state and made me more suicidal since I am now very bad at dealing with uncertainty. I might have just been bad at it before as well and that's why I gravitated to math, but idk.)

That is also why learning math is so slow. You're building from the simplest of definitions back up to the nice properties you know and learning under what assumptions they hold and when you can assume things to "be nice". The first example below is a proof from a book about 3-manifolds (nice three-dimensional geometric objects) and is incredibly easy to read (for me at least) (also notice how it is completely in natural language and has very few symbols). However for it to be a proper proof the writer and (hopefully) the reader has to have read huge amounts of math to know for sure that things actually do work as nicely as it says. Topology (the most loose form of geometry) starts with just a "set", a collection of objects which we call points, without any predetermined structure and a "topology", a collection of subcollections of this set, which in a (very abstract and convoluted) sense tell us which points are close to each other. You study these kinds of very abstract geometric objects enough to know the pitfalls and then you can using this understanding of topology define (in an imo not so convoluted way) a manifold, which is just a geometric object that locally looks like the nice geometric objects we're used to imagining.

As an example you can take the Jordan curve theorem which just says that if you have (a potentially pathologically) wiggly circle in two-dimensional space (or an (n-1)-dimensional sphere in n-space) that it actually divides that space into an inner and outer part. An at first intuitive fact that we just couldn't be sure of (and shouldn't have been sure of).

You can look at the second example which is from a more algebraic form of geometry. You have a lot of this referencing back to earlier results written out. You can go back a couple or ten or a hundred pages to look at the statement x.xx which is going to just be some kind of fact about the mathematical objects you're working with. When you read it you hopefully understood from the proof why that fact was true and you gained some greater intuition about the object. Therefore when you see that reference you might have to go look back at it, but it might be that you don't because you can guess from the context that oh yes, I can see where this argument is going and that this obviously follows from this fact in my intuition. Therefore it isn't necessarily that much harder to read than the first one.

I wanted to choose the second example to show something about notation, but now that I look at it, it doesn't really say anything. We just use a lot of symbols and well-chosen notation and they have a lot of inbuilt meaning for us. You can see that even though the proof isn't actually calculating anything using the symbols, it is saving a lot of space and a lot of working memory for us by using well-chosen notation.

There's probably lots of videos from places like numberphile etc. where they explain how a mathematician works in a way more concise and simple way. Sorry, I just kind of got carried away with writing this.




 
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thenamingofcats

annihilation anxiety
Apr 19, 2024
453
I'm really sorry about everything below. It's very self-indulgent and not very polished or good.

I'm not the best person to ask about what the normal opinion is wrt the place-value notation. A lot of people obviously deal with it daily and live with it, but I'm sure some of them find it hard. I've always been fine with it though of course calculating with numbers is very bothersome. I am very happy to rarely have to see anything other than rational numbers and in them natural numbers larger than five.

However place-value notation is just a very convenient way to pack a lot of abstract info into simple notation and this is an idea that mathematicians rely on to do their work (see the second example below). Humans have very limited working memory. To be able to grasp complicated abstract things which contain too much information for this working memory you have to somehow be able to see the big picture that is composed by all of this small detail. The main tool in this is just building intuition about the things you're working with. This is basically "seeing" or somehow feeling the understanding you have of some mathematical object.

If you're doing some kind of geometrical argument in your head you're in some very general sense seeing your argument happen in your head. The geometrical object you're thinking of might be higher (than three) dimensional or might be too not-nice (somehow too abstractly defined) to have a definable dimension, but you're using your intuition of the dimensions you do know (one-, two- and three-dimensions) and the nice objects in them to help yourself understand the object. This of course has many pitfalls and you spend a lot of time being scared straight by your teachers with pathological examples of how bad and non-intuitive things can happen in the not-nice cases and why you can never assume anything. This never assuming anything and being scared of uncertain things is a fundamental skill in doing math.

(It has also probably worsened my mental state and made me more suicidal since I am now very bad at dealing with uncertainty. I might have just been bad at it before as well and that's why I gravitated to math, but idk.)

That is also why learning math is so slow. You're building from the simplest of definitions back up to the nice properties you know and learning under what assumptions they hold and when you can assume things to "be nice". The first example below is a proof from a book about 3-manifolds (nice three-dimensional geometric objects) and is incredibly easy to read (for me at least) (also notice how it is completely in natural language and has very few symbols). However for it to be a proper proof the writer and (hopefully) the reader has to have read huge amounts of math to know for sure that things actually do work as nicely as it says. Topology (the most loose form of geometry) starts with just a "set", a collection of objects which we call points, without any predetermined structure and a "topology", a collection of subcollections of this set, which in a (very abstract and convoluted) sense tell us which points are close to each other. You study these kinds of very abstract geometric objects enough to know the pitfalls and then you can using this understanding of topology define (in an imo not so convoluted way) a manifold, which is just a geometric object that locally looks like the nice geometric objects we're used to imagining.

As an example you can take the Jordan curve theorem which just says that if you have (a potentially pathologically) wiggly circle in two-dimensional space (or an (n-1)-dimensional sphere in n-space) that it actually divides that space into an inner and outer part. An at first intuitive fact that we just couldn't be sure of (and shouldn't have been sure of).

You can look at the second example which is from a more algebraic form of geometry. You have a lot of this referencing back to earlier results written out. You can go back a couple or ten or a hundred pages to look at the statement x.xx which is going to just be some kind of fact about the mathematical objects you're working with. When you read it you hopefully understood from the proof why that fact was true and you gained some greater intuition about the object. Therefore when you see that reference you might have to go look back at it, but it might be that you don't because you can guess from the context that oh yes, I can see where this argument is going and that this obviously follows from this fact in my intuition. Therefore it isn't necessarily that much harder to read than the first one.

I wanted to choose the second example to show something about notation, but now that I look at it, it doesn't really say anything. We just use a lot of symbols and well-chosen notation and they have a lot of inbuilt meaning for us. You can see that even though the proof isn't actually calculating anything using the symbols, it is saving a lot of space and a lot of working memory for us by using well-chosen notation.

There's probably lots of videos from places like numberphile etc. where they explain how a mathematician works in a way more concise and simple way. Sorry, I just kind of got carried away with writing this.




Thank you so much for taking the time to write this, very generous. I'm going to think about it for a while.
 
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