Discussion Were you always an antinatalist ? #45

[MeltingBrain]

If option 2, what life events made you change your mind ?
If option or 3, why did you hold these ideals ?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can find previous polls here: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/meltingbrain-all-polls.123887/
Part of : https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...st-at-least-1-poll-daily.123125/#post-2051973
DailyPoll
#45
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[SmallKoy]

I'm on the fence. I voted that I am not anti natalist, because I don't think it is morally wrong for people to have kids per-se. I just think certain people should not be allowed to have children. Too many people mistreat their children, and most parents often don't deserve to be parents.

 

[divinemistress36]

Depends on the day

 

[Dayrain]

I honestly just thought about you today @MeltingBrain , because I hadn't seen you in a long time.

 

[MeltingBrain]

I honestly just thought about you today @MeltingBrain , because I hadn't seen you in a long time.

:)

 

[Trav1989]

I can understand and respect having kids if your in a happy marriage and your financially stable and can support them for their lives until they get settled. Even then though, I had that upbringing and it STILL wasn't enough for me but I can't bring myself to say I'm anti-natalist just because I am miserable, there are many who are alive yet are very happy with their existences. I do believe that euthanasia should be legalized though for sure, if a person reaches say, 21 and they've had it with this world allow them death after a month long waiting period because after a month they've had plenty of time to weigh the pros and cons of their decision and if they wish to not go through with it allow them to back out.

Governments should not be making it more and more difficult to CTB because those who desire such will still find a way and it will just be more painful and risky, as well as possibly include others.

Banning euthanasia isn't much different than banning anything else, if people want something they will find a way to get it.

Sorry for going off-topic a bit but I am by no means anti-natalist. I believe in freedom of choice and even if your an unfit parent you should be allowed to have children although those children should also be allowed the freedom to end their life upon reaching a mature age.

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

I'm answering "became one after life went downhill." Life went downhill pretty fast for me though, I guess starting at age 6 when my dad suffered a brain injury. So, early on I had the disillusionment that life is shit. But when I started to grow up, the idea of having kids and raising them was just never appealing to me. Then as shit started to hit the fan more in my late teens and throughout my 20s, my thinking more properly solidified into Antinatalism. I was thinking similarly to the reasonings in David Benatar's work "Better Never To Have Been." When I actually stumbled upon his work and read through it, that's when I even learned the word Antinatalism, and the way he explained things was just so much better than how I was thinking at the time.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I didn't become one immediately after my life went downhill, it was only after multiple years of suicidality that I started even looking into it, namely into David Benatar's arguments as BoulderSoWhat mentioned. Previously I had (wrongly) thought of antinatalism kind of in the same vein as the "new atheist movement," ie. mostly a bunch of edgy young men on reddit trying to be contrarian, so it was never very persuasive to me.

 

[Darkover]

after realizing we are just nothing forever at 18 years old

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's a relatively recent thing for me. I think maybe I didn't think it was wise for me to have kids for a long time. I remember briefly discussing that with a college therapist 13 years ago. But the overall feeling that it's not terribly fair to expose a sentient being to the risks of this life without their permission is quite new for me. Not that I hate parents but, I worry for their children.

 

[brokeandbroken]

If option 2, what life events made you change your mind ?
If option or 3, why did you hold these ideals ?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can find previous polls here: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/meltingbrain-all-polls.123887/
Part of : https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...st-at-least-1-poll-daily.123125/#post-2051973
DailyPoll
#45
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess in my situation it's people over and over again hurting me to help themselves. There's nothing about my life that is at all appealing to anyone let alone to the extent of having a kid with them. It won't be getting better. So me having a kid isn't something that's going to happen. That said it comes down to whether or not you think that kid will be treated with the level of disdain, hatred, and revulsion I've experienced. Hard to say. Would they have opportunities I didn't have? If not shouldn't engaging in activities conducive to having the kid. If they are going to have opportunities I didn't/dont no reason to not have them.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I became an antinatalist after my life gotten downhill and that's because I gained the critical thinking skills to understand antinatalism. I'm an antinatalist because, in this world where everything is all about exploitation and wage slavery as well as euthanasia being illegal, it's immoral to give birth to somebody as there is a chance that they could be suicidal due to life yet are also trapped because euthanasia is illegal. I acknowledge that many people do enjoy life but, at the same time, no unborn person is going to feel regret over not having been born nor is it possible for them to miss out on life since they were never born in the first place.

The one thing that would stop me from being an antinatalist is if euthanasia is legalised for those who want it as then life is a choice rather than an obligation

 

[amaluuk]

Adam Lanza sort of ruined antinatalism for me but I think a lot of people don't make very informed decisions about having kids and don't truly respect their children as their own people but rather set-dressing for their own lives at the end of the day. Obviously every parent makes compromises with their children and can accept their own existence to a tee, but the final frontier of self-determination (suicide) will of course never be permitted. I think parents should be more accepting that sometimes their children will just not have a very good life prognosis and that said children will want to do something about it, and to be okay with that, and to not see it as a personal failure, no matter how much society stigmatizes them, and as I say that latter point I realize it's not so much always a parent's fault as much as it is societal conditioning, lul.

All that is to lead up to a very boring answer which is to say I don't think anyone can be pro or anti natalist. It's just too complicated.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Never being born is the best thing by a trilion times.

I wish i were never born

I would never impose the nightmare called life on any sentient being. Something extremely horrible can happen to any human any day

To create a small animal whose brain can suffer unending constant unbearable pain for no reason is unconscionable

Non-existence forever is the best thing by a trillion times no chance of pain problems suffering bad memories ever

I reached these conclusions after rational thinking

 

[pyx]

the theoretical backbone to the entire thing is quite solid, but i don't condemn any well-off parents from having children. having said that, i dislike antinatalism treating itself as if it were some ostensive political movement with the resources to bring about radical change.

also when representatives deviate from the implications of their philosophy, which is when moralistic pap begins to crop up

 

[geogaddi_676]

I have always viewed life with some suspicion and felt like most of school and growing up generally was fulfilling obligations that I didn't ask for. There is definitely an optimism bias in society and therefore you are almost forced to play along that life is this great gift and parents should be admired and praised, and if not you are socially ostracised or labelled as ungrateful or wilfully miserable and negative, when in a lot of cases, life is objectively bad and people have every right to complain (I believe that once you have children, you lose the right to complain too strongly, as if you really believed life was bad you wouldn't have subjected another being to it in the first place).Childhood is basically one big con game and haze of ignorance, and by the time you realise it its often too late. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with non-existence (unconsciousness), the natural state of the Universe, and while there are many things I enjoy and love about life, I often think it would have been better to not exist at all. I think the key is not having a child early, when you're naïve, easily swayed by peers and blind hormones, however once you have had your fair share of suffering and disappointment,I believe that you should realise that the rational and ethical thing to do is not to bring another person into the same painful and often unwinnable situation, without their consent. It would be a different story if there was a Right to Die, but given that there is not, I will remain antinatalist (there are extreme and dogmatic people in every movement and it shouldn't be judged by the extremes, but by the core philosophical ideas and sentiments). Everyone has to act out of there own experience and while I understand that people lead radically different lives in which they gain their perspectives, I have seen too much suffering to think it is worth the risk. I was probably 17 when I first regarded myself as an antinatalist, and its only strengthened with age.

 

[yellowjester]

Depends on the day

Same. On my worst days I'm a pro-mortalist. It's just a coping mechanism foe me; I don't take it all that serious.

 

[sevennn]

a 100% of my issues would be gone if i didn't exist in the first place. no pain, no longing, no nothing. creating children is just creating more needs unmet and more awareness of the world (which isn't pleasant)

 

[QuartziteGlitter]

I feel it unfair to demand people to not have kids. I try to be honest to myself by admitting that it is me who is flawed, I am the corrupted mind, the flayed flesh, the scrawny figure that dies in silence. But most people aren't like this.

Yes, there are definitely folks who should never have kids. Some people who have brought kids to literal hell out of their own volition, at times not thinking deeper into their actions at all.

Then again, this is a minority. I am a minority too.

All living things need to reproduce, and we cannot possibly question the void on a soon-to-be new life's desire. This is sadly, I believe, no moral debate.

 

[SoulWhisperer]

Option 3, I believe that some people can enjoy life and some don't. Some overcome the challenges while other succumb. This world is horrible, but some people don't have to live that or live for long enough clear of trauma/serious problems. Me personally I don't wanna ever have kids, but eh, the rest is up to others I guess. I just don't support a wide majority of people in my life for being generally bad people towards others for stupid reasons so I don't have much faith in whole planet if good people are rarer.

 

[MeltingBrain]

I think parents should be more accepting that sometimes their children will just not have a very good life prognosis and that said children will want to do something about it, and to be okay with that, and to not see it as a personal failure, no matter how much society stigmatizes them

This is such an underrated yet key aspect of this debate.
Building on that thought, children are both overtly and subversively hammered with the idea that a happy life is about meeting some financial and relationship goals. When they grow up, they become unhappy if they don't meet those goals because they were told that happiness was contingent on meeting those goals and not something you can or deserve to enjoy if you don't meet them .
In reality happiness is a state of mind, wanting to achieve some personal goals (set by oneself, free of societal/parental pressure) could be one path of getting to that happy state but it isn't the happy state itself.
Parents should teach their kids it's ok to fail and it's very possible that life will be cruel to them and If life is unbearable it's ok to tap out .

 

[willitpass]

I myself will never have kids. It breaks me as it was something I dreamed of since I was still in preschool. But my mental health is irreparable. I should be dead by the end of the week, but god forbid I'm still here and survive, I know I cannot have children. I cannot leave behind a child to deal with their mother's suicide, which I know would be inevitable. And the state of the world. Politically, environmentally, financially, etc. It's not a world I would want to leave a kid to live in.

But I am not antinatalist. There are many, many good families out there. Parents who love and care for their children. Kids who are happy and well developed. Adults who grew up in a loving home and grow up to be genuinely happy adults. To negate all of that just because of my personal bad experiences… It is not my place. My life has been bad, yes. But that does not mean the human species as a whole is bad. I work in healthcare. I see how bad things can go. I see horrible parents who fuck their kids up. But that is not the majority of what I see. So I know it is not right to say no one should have kids. I wish there was a realistic way to regulate who could have kids, but I am not antinatalist.

 

[ladylazarus4]

to the 9 people who have always been antinatalist- what does "always" mean to you? Since you were able to form rational thought? I'm really curious because I feel like kids, even when they're horrifically traumatized, don't really have the capacity to be antinatalist. Not trying to be snarky or aggressive. Just curious.

 

[snak3atereve]

I chose option 2, but it wasn't necessarily after my life went downhill, one can also say it hasn't gone downhill yet either, just my mentality, but I adopted this view after taking a philosophy class which introduced me to the idea of antinatalism. Previously I hadn't really thought about the morality of having children and thought it must be morally acceptable due to being a necessity to continue biologically. But I realized that just because something is necessary for life doesn't make it morally right.

After I started questioning this I thought what right does someone else have to drag me into existence, I mean it sucks, It's tiring and painful and just waiting for it to end. And I think the answer was that they had no right to do so. I think if someone believes in right and wrong, then being born is one of the worst things you can submit someone to, you don't know what will come of their life and how it'll go no matter how much material wealth you have or emotional maturity or anything, my parents have done everything they can and I'm still here wanting to be relieved of existence. It's practically impossible to be certain that you will give birth to someone who will always enjoy or at least believe that their life is worth living. And the alternative is non existence, which is not a bad thing, it's good, I mean it's whatever "you" were before you were born, just not even here, and there's no you to feel pain. Idk those are most of the motivating ideas behind my antinatalism.

I'm okay with people having kids, I don't necessarily believe in morality, like go ahead and do what you like I guess. But I think it's ironic for people to believe in right and wrong and still feel morally empowered or joyed when creating life on a whim.

Existence is pain

And also since we're on this topic I think adoption is a great thing if you want to be a parent, I mean many of these children at least to my knowledge will be put in foster care? Or something of the sort if they're not adopted? I belive it's not a very ideal life compared to having a standard family i guess, not saying it's necessarily bad, but i think its not as endowed, anyway i believe that when you adopt a child you're trying to do your best to improve their life from what it would have been, I think it's beautiful

Sorry for the rambling, would love to hear anyone's responses

 

[LunarLight]

I am not an anti-natalist. I do think life is worth living - just, maybe not mine. My brain is sick and keeps me from enjoying life.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I'm not anti-natalist but the decision to produce children should be thought through very well. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen in so many cases and the children have to suffer. In my case, not to procreate was the best decision I've ever made. I never had the wish to have children.

 

[DanielDanDean]

I'm trying to check 2 options.
I'm antinatalist since maybe 12 years old? My life was always shit so I never intended to see the world any other way