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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
First I wanted to add facism but this topic is already way too intricate. I think this is a debate which often consists of way too populistic or simplified statements.
I am no expert but this is my take on it.

There are many variables and different understandings of this question. Do we talk about relative or absolute numbers? I think there are way more capitalistic systems than socialistic countries. So in absolute terms I think capitalism led to more deaths. Moreover are only direct or indirecty deaths counted and how do we define them.

I am a leftwinger I admit that. Though I would prefer a capitalistic country over a socialistic country. Maybe this confuses you probably we have different notions of socialism. I don't consider the Scandinavian countries socialist countries. They are social democracies with a bigger welfare state than in most other states. (they have a tamed version of capitalism)
This is for me the best model in the world so far. For me socialism is for example Venezuela, Cuba, the old Soviet Union or the GDR (old east Germany). Maybe I had to differentiate between Communism and Socialism.

I think in their extreme positions either capitalism or socialism is very lethal. Like the manchester capitalism was so extremely insane. The living conditions for the people were unbelievable. This was no life. But we can see too aggressive versions of capitialism for example in the US or China also today. This is at least what I think. China claims to be socialistic but it is not.

On the other hand socialism like in the GDR is clearly disadvantaged compared to a capitalism light version. The aim was equality but ended in a dictatorship. Personally I am very sceptical towards socialism in this form. Everything in this regard backfired.

Markets are quite efficient if they are regulated in the right way. Planned economy leads to poverty and grievances. I don't pretend capitalism was perfect. Hell I probably have to kill myself because welfare is not enough money for me. But I think with socialism the economy of my country was not competitive enough in the international system. Our country and people would become less wealthy and thus less money could be distributed. However I think this is what some studies show the welfare state seems to grow in most countries. And I think this is the right direction. I think a better welfare state with more distribution and less inequality will be needed so that our societies don't divide even further.

What are your thoughts on that?
 
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October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
Amusingly, all the deaths under Soviet-sttle central planning in Russia and China are also attributable to capitalism, lulz.

Wile the revolution in Germany is still slow in "coming forth", our task is to study the state capitalism of the Germans, to spare no effort in copying it and not shrink from adopting dictatorial methods to hasten the copying of it. Our task is to hasten this copying even more than Peter hastened the copying of Western culture by barbarian Russia, and we must not hesitate to use barbarous methods in fighting barbarism. If there are anarchists and Left Socialist-Revolutionaries (I recall off-hand the speeches of Karelin and Ghe at the meeting of the Central Executive Committee) who indulge in Narcissus-like reflections and say that it is unbecoming for us revolutionaries to "take lessons" from German imperialism, there is only one thing we can say in reply: the revolution that took these people seriously would perish irrevocably (and deservedly).

- Lenin, The Tax In Kind

For Marx and Marxists, socialism is the abolition of production for exchange, and because of this the abolition of property, the State and wage labor and the implementation of production for direct, unmediated social use. Accordingly, any form of production with these features, be it "market socialism" or "State socialism" or the most laissez-faire capitalism on Earth, is capitalist.
 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
Amusingly, all the deaths under Soviet-sttle central planning in Russia and China are also attributable to capitalism, lulz.



- Lenin, The Tax In Kind
Not in my measurement. I would both count to socialism
 
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October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
Not in my measurement. I would both count to socialism
So which of the following were socialist?

1. The Old Kingdom of Ancient Egypt (States directed production)
2. Medieval feudalism
3. Nazi Germany
4. America's New Deal
5. Scandinavian welfare states

the Soviets themselves did nor claim to have achieved socialism (Lenin botched the term, using "socialism" to describe the lower phase of Communism, but Marx used them interchangeably).

No one, I think, in studying the question of the economic system of Russia, had denied its transitional character. Nor, I think, has any Communist denied that the term Socialist Soviet Republic implies the determination of Soviet power to achieve the transition to socialism, and not that the new economic system is recognized as a socialist order.
- V.I. Lenin, "Left-Wing Childishness and the Petty-Bourgeois Mentality"
 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
So which of the following were socialist?

1. The Old Kingdom of Ancient Egypt (States directed production)
2. Medieval feudalism
3. Nazi Germany
4. America's New Deal
5. Scandinavian welfare states

the Soviets themselves did nor claim to have achieved socialism (Lenin botched the term, using "socialism" to describe the lower phase of Communism, but Marx used them intwrchangeably).
I don't know much about number 1.
2. Was socialism even invented during medieval feudalism???? I doubt it. Socialism was invented in the 19. century
3. The Nazis called themselves nationalsocialists. They used elements of capitalism and socialism in their economy. Their economy was often directed from the state but their ideology was extremely right-wing. The economy did not kill the people in Nazi Germany, The economy did not lead to the war. The right-wing ideology was responsible for the war.
4. No America's New Deal was not socialism
5. Also not socialism

Though I doubt we wil find I compromise. And I don't care about that. We don't have to find a compromise anyway.
 
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October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
In my view, and Marx's view, neither the ancient Egyptians, not feudalism, nor Nazism, nor the New Deal, nor modern Scandinavia are socialist, and neither was the Soviet Union. Socialism is what will come after capitalism has exhausted itself globally and the worldwide working class must revolt, or they will all die.

Again, no existing society yet has abolished money and implemented direct, unmediated production for social need. This is socialism, not muh gubbermint doing things. This can only be done once certain historical conditions are met. From Marx's German Ideology:

This "alienation" (to use a term which will be comprehensible to the philosophers) can, of course, only be abolished given two practical premises. For it to become an "intolerable" power, i.e. a power against which men make a revolution, it must necessarily have rendered the great mass of humanity "propertyless," and produced, at the same time, the contradiction of an existing world of wealth and culture, both of which conditions presuppose a great increase in productive power, a high degree of its development. And, on the other hand, this development of productive forces (which itself implies the actual empirical existence of men in their world-historical, instead of local, being) is an absolutely necessary practical premise because without it want is merely made general, and with destitution the struggle for necessities and all the old filthy business would necessarily be reproduced; and furthermore, because only with this universal development of productive forces is a universal intercourse between men established, which produces in all nations simultaneously the phenomenon of the "propertyless" mass (universal competition), makes each nation dependent on the revolutions of the others, and finally has put world-historical, empirically universal individuals in place of local ones. Without this, (1) communism could only exist as a local event; (2) the forces of intercourse themselves could not have developed as universal, hence intolerable powers: they would have remained home-bred conditions surrounded by superstition; and (3) each extension of intercourse would abolish local communism. Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples "all at once" and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism. Moreover, the mass of propertyless workers – the utterly precarious position of labour – power on a mass scale cut off from capital or from even a limited satisfaction and, therefore, no longer merely temporarily deprived of work itself as a secure source of life – presupposes the world market through competition. The proletariat can thus only exist world-historically, just as communism, its activity, can only have a "world-historical" existence. World-historical existence of individuals means existence of individuals which is directly linked up with world history.
 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
In my view, and Marx's view, neither the ancient Egyptians, not feudalism, nor Nazism, nor the New Deal, nor modern Scandinavia are socialist, and neither was the Soviet Union. Socialism is what will come after capitalism has exhausted itself globally and the worldwide working class must revolt, or they will all die.

Again, no existing society yet has abolished money and implemented direct, unmediated production for social need. This is socialism, not muh gubbermint doing things. This can only be done once certain historical conditions are met. From Marx's German Ideology:
Personaly I disagree with that. For me it seems to be an excuse. "Socialism was not implemented perfectly so far". I think it never will be perfectly implemented because it does not fit the human condition. One could give this excuse about an imperfect implementation to many systems. It might be something different because Marx said it. But he was not the only one who contributed to the defintion of socialism
 
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October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
Personaly I disagree with that. For me it seems to be an excuse. "Socialism was not implemented perfectly so far". I think it never will be perfectly implemented because it does not fit the human condition. One could give this excuse about an imperfect implementation to many systems. It might be something different because Marx said it. But he was not the only one who contributed to the defintion of socialism
It really isn't a matter of implementation, but of historical determinism. The actual material and historical requirements for socialism proper - a fully integrated world capitalist market - did not exist in 1917 or 1949 or 1960. What did exist was the possibility of a redistributionist State capitalism. Marx is a historical ultradeterminist.
 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
It really isn't a matter of implementation, but of historical determinism. The actual material and historical requirements for socialism proper - a fully integrated world capitalist market - did not exist in 1917 or 1949 or 1960. What did exist was the possibility of a redistributionist State capitalism. Marx is a historical ultradeterminist.
Yes but only when we accept the philosophy and approach of Marx. And I reject his metaphysical concept.
 
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October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
Yes but only when we accept the philosophy and approach of Marx. And I reject his metaphysical concept.

Marx actually doesn't require you to accept anything. From The Holy Family, 1845:

When socialist writers ascribe this world-historic role to the proletariat, it is not at all, as Critical Criticism pretends to believe, because they regard the proletarians as gods. Rather the contrary. Since in the fully-formed proletariat the abstraction of all humanity, even of the semblance of humanity, is practically complete; since the conditions of life of the proletariat sum up all the conditions of life of society today in their most inhuman form; since man has lost himself in the proletariat, yet at the same time has not only gained theoretical consciousness of that loss, but through urgent, no longer removable, no longer disguisable, absolutely imperative need — the practical expression of necessity — is driven directly to revolt against this inhumanity, it follows that the proletariat can and must emancipate itself. But it cannot emancipate itself without abolishing the conditions of its own life. It cannot abolish the conditions of its own life without abolishing all the inhuman conditions of life of society today which are summed up in its own situation. Not in vain does it go through the stern but steeling school of labour. *It is not a question of what this or that proletarian, or even the whole proletariat, at the moment regards as its aim. It is a question of what the proletariat is, and what, in accordance with this being, it will historically be compelled to do.* Its aim and historical action is visibly and irrevocably foreshadowed in its own life situation as well as in the whole organization of bourgeois society today. There is no need to explain here that a large part of the English and French proletariat is already conscious of its historic task and is constantly working to develop that consciousness into complete clarity.

Marx says simply that the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is inbuilt within the system of capitalism. Marx could have never been born, per Marx, and he says the world will still eventually find itself of necessity controlled directly by the working class. It isn't a matter of converting anyone to a particular point of view, or changing their minds, or convincing them to become Communists. Marx holds that the conditions of capitalism will force this upon the working class.

No philosophy needed. The rate of profit declines, capitalism enters crisis, the workers have to seize the means because they will all die otherwise. Marx rejects evangelism.
 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
Marx actually doesn't require you to accept anything. From The Holy Family, 1845:

When socialist writers ascribe this world-historic role to the proletariat, it is not at all, as Critical Criticism pretends to believe, because they regard the proletarians as gods. Rather the contrary. Since in the fully-formed proletariat the abstraction of all humanity, even of the semblance of humanity, is practically complete; since the conditions of life of the proletariat sum up all the conditions of life of society today in their most inhuman form; since man has lost himself in the proletariat, yet at the same time has not only gained theoretical consciousness of that loss, but through urgent, no longer removable, no longer disguisable, absolutely imperative need — the practical expression of necessity — is driven directly to revolt against this inhumanity, it follows that the proletariat can and must emancipate itself. But it cannot emancipate itself without abolishing the conditions of its own life. It cannot abolish the conditions of its own life without abolishing all the inhuman conditions of life of society today which are summed up in its own situation. Not in vain does it go through the stern but steeling school of labour. *It is not a question of what this or that proletarian, or even the whole proletariat, at the moment regards as its aim. It is a question of what the proletariat is, and what, in accordance with this being, it will historically be compelled to do.* Its aim and historical action is visibly and irrevocably foreshadowed in its own life situation as well as in the whole organization of bourgeois society today. There is no need to explain here that a large part of the English and French proletariat is already conscious of its historic task and is constantly working to develop that consciousness into complete clarity.

Marx says simply that the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is inbuilt within the system of capitalism. Marx could have never been born, per Marx, and he says the world will still eventually find itself of necessity controlled directly by the working class. It isn't a matter of converting anyone to a particular point of view, or changing their minds, or convincing them to become Communists. Marx holds that the conditions of capitalism will force this upon the working class.

No philosophy needed. The rate of profit declines, capitalism enters crisis, the workers have to seize the means because they will all die otherwise. Marx rejects evangelism.
I find this discussion interesting. But I really need to get sleep and you seem to be educated on the topic. In your prior post you said "It really isn't a matter of implementation, but of historical determinism". I wanted to say that I exactly reject this notion of historical determism. This was it what I was refering to when talked about Marx' philosphy.
 
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October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
I find this discussion interesting. But I really need to get sleep and you seem to be educated on the topic. In your prior post you said "It really isn't a matter of implementation, but of historical determinism". I wanted to say that I exactly reject this notion of historical determism. This was it what I was refering to when talked about Marx' philosphy.
Perhaps it's more accurate to say that class struggle with the possibility of a Communist outcome is inevitable.
 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
Perhaps it's more accurate to say that class struggle with the possibility of a Communist outcome is inevitable.
Either this comment went over my head or it is not precisely an reply to my post? I suspect the former one. I don't have this in-depth knowledge about Socialism or Marx. You know way more.
I read some things about materialism, that history progesses as dialectic and determism. All these points did not really convince me. But my knowledge is admittedly quite superficial.
 
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
Capitalism.
Yes but only when we accept the philosophy and approach of Marx. And I reject his metaphysical concept.
There's nothing metaphysical about Marx. Do u even metaphysics, bro?
 
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October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
Capitalism.

There's nothing metaphysical about Marx. Do u even metaphysics, bro?

Indeed. When you strip away all metaphysical assumptions about life on this rock and actually observe humanity in action, what you are left with is Marxism.
 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
Capitalism.

There's nothing metaphysical about Marx. Do u even metaphysics, bro?
Probably I lack a lot of knowledge in this instance. But this is another good experience for me. Due to the fact I overestimate my knowledge way too much. I think this is pathological.

I think one reason might be for this mistake that I assumed due the fact Marx was influenced by German idealist philosophy like Hegel he undertook some assumptions of him. I thought he undertook concepts of Hegel concerning metaphysics.
 
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October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
Marx sought to show that what Hegel was describing in his mystical dialectic was actually rooted in the material process of production.

From Capital:

The mystifying side of Hegelian dialectic I criticised nearly thirty years ago, at a time when it was still the fashion. But just as I was working at the first volume of "Das Kapital," it was the good pleasure of the peevish, arrogant, mediocre Epigonoi [Epigones – Büchner, Dühring and others] who now talk large in cultured Germany, to treat Hegel in same way as the brave Moses Mendelssohn in Lessing's time treated Spinoza, i.e., as a "dead dog." I therefore openly avowed myself the pupil of that mighty thinker, and even here and there, in the chapter on the theory of value, coquetted with the modes of expression peculiar to him. The mystification which dialectic suffers in Hegel's hands, by no means prevents him from being the first to present its general form of working in a comprehensive and conscious manner. With him it is standing on its head. It must be turned right side up again, if you would discover the rational kernel within the mystical shell.

In its mystified form, dialectic became the fashion in Germany, because it seemed to transfigure and to glorify the existing state of things. In its rational form it is a scandal and abomination to bourgeoisdom and its doctrinaire professors, because it includes in its comprehension and affirmative recognition of the existing state of things, at the same time also, the recognition of the negation of that state, of its inevitable breaking up; because it regards every historically developed social form as in fluid movement, and therefore takes into account its transient nature not less than its momentary existence; because it lets nothing impose upon it, and is in its essence critical and revolutionary.
Now, to whit, a great many Marxists do not understand Marx. This is why you have Marxists siding with the left-wing of Capital, like the Democrats or the German SDP, or identity politicking liberals masquerading as Marxists in academia. The late, great left-communist had this to say about bourgeois academic Marxism:

Marxism, however, signifies neither more nor less than the destruction of capitalism. Even as a scientific discipline it offers nothing to the bourgeoisie. And yet, as an alternative to the discredited bourgeois social theory, it may serve the latter by providing it with some ideas useful for its rejuvenation. After all, one learns from the opposition. Moreover, in its apparently "realized" form in the "socialist countries," Marxism points to practical solutions that may also be useful in the mixed economies, such as a further increase of stabilizing governmental regulations. An income and wage policy, for instance, comes quite close to the analogous arrangements in centrally controlled economic systems. Finally, in view of the absence of revolutionary movements, the academic type of Marxian inquiry is risk-free, inasmuch as it is restricted to the world of ideas. Strange as it may seem, it is the lack of such movements in a period of social turmoil that turns Marxism into a marketable commodity and a cultural phenomenon attesting to the tolerance and democratic fairness of bourgeois society.

And one last post:

1. Marx and Engels did not demand absolute equality.

As between one country, one province and even one place and another, living conditions will always evince a certain inequality which may be reduced to a minimum but never wholly eliminated. The living conditions of Alpine dwellers will always be different from those of the plainsmen. The concept of a socialist society as a realm of equality is a one-sided French concept deriving from the old "liberty, equality, fraternity," a concept which was justified in that, in its own time and place, it signified a phase of development, but which, like all the one-sided ideas of earlier socialist schools, ought now to be superseded, since they produce nothing but mental confusion, and more accurate ways of presenting the matter have been discovered. (Engels 1875)

What is "a fair distribution"?

Do not the bourgeois assert that the present-day distribution is "fair"? And is it not, in fact, the only "fair" distribution on the basis of the present-day mode of production? Are economic relations regulated by legal conceptions, or do not, on the contrary, legal relations arise out of economic ones? Have not also the socialist sectarians the most varied notions about "fair" distribution?

To understand what is implied in this connection by the phrase "fair distribution", we must take the first paragraph and this one together. The latter presupposes a society wherein the instruments of labor are common property and the total labor is co-operatively regulated, and from the first paragraph we learn that "the proceeds of labor belong undiminished with equal right to all members of society."

"To all members of society"? To those who do not work as well? What remains then of the "undiminished" proceeds of labor? Only to those members of society who work? What remains then of the "equal right" of all members of society?

But "all members of society" and "equal right" are obviously mere phrases. The kernel consists in this, that in this communist society every worker must receive the "undiminished" Lassallean "proceeds of labor".

Let us take, first of all, the words "proceeds of labor" in the sense of the product of labor; then the co-operative proceeds of labor are the total social product. (Marx, Critique Of The Gotha Programme)

2. Marx and Engels did not worship the State.

The state is nothing but an instrument of opression of one class by another - no less so in a democratic republic than in a monarchy.

Friedrich Engels

Because the state arose from the need to hold class antagonisms in check, but because it arose, at the same time, in the midst of the conflict of these classes, it is, as a rule, the state of the most powerful, economically dominant class, which, through the medium of the state, becomes also the politically dominant class, and thus acquires new means of holding down and exploiting the oppressed class. Thus, the state of antiquity was above all the state of the slave owners for the purpose of holding down the slaves, as the feudal state was the organ of the nobility for holding down the peasant serfs and bondsmen, and the modern representative state is an instrument of exploitation of wage labour by capital. By way of exception, however, periods occur in which the warring classes balance each other so nearly that the state power, as ostensible mediator, acquires, for the moment, a certain degree of independence of both. Such was the absolute monarchy of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, which held the balance between the nobility and the class of burghers; such was the Bonapartism of the First, and still more of the Second French Empire, which played off the proletariat against the bourgeoisie and the bourgeoisie against the proletariat. The latest performance of this kind, in which ruler and ruled appear equally ridiculous, is the new German Empire of the Bismarck nation: here capitalists and workers are balanced against each other and equally cheated for the benefit of the impoverished Prussian cabbage junkers.

In most of the historical states, the rights of citizens are, besides, apportioned according to their wealth, thus directly expressing the fact that the state is an organisation of the possessing class for its protection against the non-possessing class. It was so already in the Athenian and Roman classification according to property. It was so in the medieval feudal state, in which the alignment of political power was in conformity with the amount of land owned. It is seen in the electoral qualifications of the modern representative states. Yet this political recognition of property distinctions is by no means essential. On the contrary, it marks a low stage of state development. The highest form of the state, the democratic republic, which under our modern conditions of society is more and more becoming an inevitable necessity, and is the form of state in which alone the last decisive struggle between proletariat and bourgeoisie can be fought out - the democratic republic officially knows nothing any more of property distinctions. In it wealth exercises its power indirectly, but all the more surely. On the one hand, in the form of the direct corruption of officials, of which America provides the classical example; on the other hand, in the form of an alliance between government and Stock Exchange, which become the easier to achieve the more the public debt increases and the more joint-stock companies concentrate in their hands not only transport but also production itself, using the Stock Exchange as their centre. The latest French republic as well as the United States is a striking example of this; and good old Switzerland has contributed its share in this field.
But that a democratic republic is not essential for this fraternal alliance between government and Stock Exchange is proved by England and also by the new German Empire, where one cannot tell who was elevated more by universal suffrage, Bismarck* or Bleichröder.**

* [Otto von Bismarck, 1815-1898, First Chancellor of the German Empire from 1871 to 1890]
** [Gerson von Bleichröder, 1822-1893, German financer and Bismarck's unofficial adviser in financial matters]

And lastly, the possessing class rules directly through the medium of universal suffrage. As long as the oppressed class, in our case, therefore, the proletariat, is not yet ripe to emancipate itself, it will in its majority regard the existing order of society as the only one possible and, politically, will form the tail of the capitalist class, its extreme Left wing. To the extent, however, that this class matures for its self-emancipation, it constitutes itself as its own party and elects its own representatives, and not those of the capitalists. Thus, universal suffrage is the gauge of the maturity of the working class. It cannot and never will be anything more, in the present-day state; but that is sufficient. On the day the thermometer of universal suffrage registers boiling point among the workers, both they and the capitalists will know what to do.

The state, then, has not existed from all eternity. There have been societies that did without it, that had no idea of the state and state power. At a certain stage of economic development, which was necessarily bound up with the split of society into classes, the state became a necessity owing to this split. We are now rapidly approaching a stage in the development of production at which the existence of these classes not only will have ceased to be a necessity, but will become a positive hindrance to production. They will fall as inevitably as they arose at an earlier stage. Along with them the state will inevitably fall. Society, which will reorganise production on the basis of a free and equal association of the producers, will put the whole machinery of state where it will then belong: into the museum of antiquities, by the side of the spinning wheel and the bronze axe.

- Engels, On The Origin Of The Family, Private Property & The State
 
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JustSwingingTheD

Experienced
Jan 31, 2022
204
I admit that i don't know much about economics. But the question makes no sense to me.

Socialism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive. There is not always a definite way of saying where a socialist/capitalist society begins and the other ends. In fact, one (historically) usually follows the other.

A more appropriate question would be, which of these killed more people: The attempts to create socialist (communist) systems, or the attempts to create (classical) capitalist ones.

Even this question is kind of flawed. The answer depends on what we decide see as a man made "attempt" to create something, and what was just nature running it's course, so to speak. There is also the fact, that there are not always any reliable way of establishing what was the true intention behind the attempts. Many (or most) important political figures of history have had as limited understanding of economics as any person does. Stalin or Hitler didn't have wikipedia.

For example, Bernie Sanders may talk about socialism, he might see himself as a socialist, but that doesn't necessarily make him a socialist.
 
O

October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
For Marx, they are different. Or rather, capitalism produces elements of socialism before it makes the full transition. What drives the transition is immiseration. From The German Ideology:

This "alienation" (to use a term which will be comprehensible to the philosophers) can, of course, only be abolished given two practical premises. For it to become an "intolerable" power, i.e. a power against which men make a revolution, it must necessarily have rendered the great mass of humanity "propertyless," and produced, at the same time, the contradiction of an existing world of wealth and culture, both of which conditions presuppose a great increase in productive power, a high degree of its development. And, on the other hand, this development of productive forces (which itself implies the actual empirical existence of men in their world-historical, instead of local, being) is an absolutely necessary practical premise because without it want is merely made general, and with destitution the struggle for necessities and all the old filthy business would necessarily be reproduced; and furthermore, because only with this universal development of productive forces is a universal intercourse between men established, which produces in all nations simultaneously the phenomenon of the "propertyless" mass (universal competition), makes each nation dependent on the revolutions of the others, and finally has put world-historical, empirically universal individuals in place of local ones. Without this, (1) communism could only exist as a local event; (2) the forces of intercourse themselves could not have developed as universal, hence intolerable powers: they would have remained home-bred conditions surrounded by superstition; and (3) each extension of intercourse would abolish local communism. Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples "all at once" and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism. Moreover, the mass of propertyless workers – the utterly precarious position of labour – power on a mass scale cut off from capital or from even a limited satisfaction and, therefore, no longer merely temporarily deprived of work itself as a secure source of life – presupposes the world market through competition. The proletariat can thus only exist world-historically, just as communism, its activity, can only have a "world-historical" existence. World-historical existence of individuals means existence of individuals which is directly linked up with world history."
Sound familiar?
main-qimg-4a243b63403f98819375b9c34fa9d95d-pjlq



This doesn't mean the World Economic Forum is Marxist. It means that the capitalists are starting to produce pre-revolutionary conditions. Very, very early stages yet, but the work before the revolution will be one of tyrannical, perpetual propertylessness for the overwhelming majority of humanity, a true global, and globally immiserated, proletariat.

People think this conspiracy is Communist (but they also think the Chinese Communist Party is actually Communist), and so they'll fight against it in a reactionary way at first, to keep what little they have. Many will interpret it as Christian Armageddon or whatever, but it's just material forces more or less blindly driving the system to its logical conclusion - prropertylessness, first in a negative and then in a positive sense. Then they will be forced into unity at the end of it all, as conditions continue to get worse.

What drives the I'm moderation process? The tendency of the rate of profit to fall - in absolute, not relative terms (record corporate profits are always obscured by monetary inflation).



 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
5,426
For Marxists, socialism and capitalism are exclusive. Or rather, capitalism trends towards socialism and so contains more and more elements of socialism, but socialism proper is completely different.

Whar drives the transition is immiseration. From The German Ideology:

What is the progressive agenda?
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Charles Vanderford
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I am a target shooter in pistol and rifle. I am a hunter. Jun 23
Liberals want to stay in office. They have found the best way to get votes is to give people things that others pay for. Last year 55% of people paid no federal income tax. What was taken from their checks was refunded which seems like a Christmas bonus to them. Liberal want a Socialist system to redistribute the wealth from people who earned and give to to those who don't earn their daily bread.

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Dave Bronson
· Jun 27

I am a retired company owner and dedicated capitalist. Was a Republican for many years, Independent for about 10. It has occurred to me that many of the so called liberal policies, laws, regulations, and safety nets passed largely by Dems, but some Republicans also, have helped preserve and promote…
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Mastr Blastr
· Sun

Yes, Marx anticipated this. From The Communist Manifesto:
A part of the bourgeoisie is desirous of redressing social grievances in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society.
To this section belong economists, philanthropists, humanitarians, improvers of the condition of the working class, organisers of charity, members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, temperance fanatics, hole-and-corner reformers of every imaginable kind. This form of socialism has, moreover, been worked out into complete systems.
We may cite Proudhon's Philosophie de la Misère as an example of this form.
The Socialistic bourgeois want all the advantages of modern social conditions without the struggles and dangers necessarily resulting therefrom. They desire the existing state of society, minus its revolutionary and disintegrating elements. They wish for a bourgeoisie without a proletariat. The bourgeoisie naturally conceives the world in which it is supreme to be the best; and bourgeois Socialism develops this comfortable conception into various more or less complete systems. In requiring the proletariat to carry out such a system, and thereby to march straightway into the social New Jerusalem, it but requires in reality, that the proletariat should remain within the bounds of existing society, but should cast away all its hateful ideas concerning the bourgeoisie.
A second, and more practical, but less systematic, form of this Socialism sought to depreciate every revolutionary movement in the eyes of the working class by showing that no mere political reform, but only a change in the material conditions of existence, in economical relations, could be of any advantage to them. By changes in the material conditions of existence, this form of Socialism, however, by no means understands abolition of the bourgeois relations of production, an abolition that can be affected only by a revolution, but administrative reforms, based on the continued existence of these relations; reforms, therefore, that in no respect affect the relations between capital and labour, but, at the best, lessen the cost, and simplify the administrative work, of bourgeois government.
Bourgeois Socialism attains adequate expression when, and only when, it becomes a mere figure of speech.
Free trade: for the benefit of the working class. Protective duties: for the benefit of the working class. Prison Reform: for the benefit of the working class. This is the last word and the only seriously meant word of bourgeois socialism.
It is summed up in the phrase: the bourgeois is a bourgeois — for the benefit of the working class.

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Dave Bronson
· Sun

I think he is right. Except that I don't see it developing a true single equal class of bourgeoisie socialism. But I do see it elevating the proletariat to a level where revolution is no longer seriously discussed.



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Mastr Blastr
· Sun

Lulz
Living standards throughout the Western world have declined massively for the working class since the end of the Cold War. Cell phones are accessible, sure - but housing, meaningful work, education etc. have fallen massively across the spectrum, and it's about to get far, far worse. The immiseration thesis is real, verifiable, and the prelude to revolution.
Marx wrote this in The German Ideology:
"This "alienation" (to use a term which will be comprehensible to the philosophers) can, of course, only be abolished given two practical premises. For it to become an "intolerable" power, i.e. a power against which men make a revolution, it must necessarily have rendered the great mass of humanity "propertyless," and produced, at the same time, the contradiction of an existing world of wealth and culture, both of which conditions presuppose a great increase in productive power, a high degree of its development. And, on the other hand, this development of productive forces (which itself implies the actual empirical existence of men in their world-historical, instead of local, being) is an absolutely necessary practical premise because without it want is merely made general, and with destitution the struggle for necessities and all the old filthy business would necessarily be reproduced; and furthermore, because only with this universal development of productive forces is a universal intercourse between men established, which produces in all nations simultaneously the phenomenon of the "propertyless" mass (universal competition), makes each nation dependent on the revolutions of the others, and finally has put world-historical, empirically universal individuals in place of local ones. Without this, (1) communism could only exist as a local event; (2) the forces of intercourse themselves could not have developed as universal, hence intolerable powers: they would have remained home-bred conditions surrounded by superstition; and (3) each extension of intercourse would abolish local communism. Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples "all at once" and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism. Moreover, the mass of propertyless workers – the utterly precarious position of labour – power on a mass scale cut off from capital or from even a limited satisfaction and, therefore, no longer merely temporarily deprived of work itself as a secure source of life – presupposes the world market through competition. The proletariat can thus only exist world-historically, just as communism, its activity, can only have a "world-historical" existence. World-historical existence of individuals means existence of individuals which is directly linked up with world history."
Sound familiar?
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Marx's argument is that, once this process is absolutely complete - once the overwhelming majority of working class people are depropertized via immiseration driven by the bourgeois as a consequence of the tendency of the rate of profit to decline and the need of Capital to recompense by stripping them of their property through any means necessary - there will come a crisis that will induce revolution because the only alternative will be mass death.
People face biggest drop in living standards since 1956
Wages will lag soaring prices meaning the biggest drop in standards since 1956, says the OBR.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60846951#:~:text=Living%20standards%20-%20disposable%20household%20incomes%20when%20adjusted,a%20financial%20year%20since%20records%20began%20in%201956.
Generation rent: Millennials rent everything in their lives - should we all follow suit?
The booming 'sharing economy' is allowing millennials to enjoy the benefits of owning without the bother of buying.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/...lennials-rent-everything-lives-should-follow/
UN index shows living standards declining in 90% of countries | DW | 08.09.2022
The UN's Human Development Index has declined globally for two years in a row for the first time in 32 years amid the combined effects of climate change, the coronavirus pandemic and the war in Ukraine.
https://www.dw.com/en/un-index-shows-living-standards-declining-in-90-of-countries/a-63052023





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I would be curious to know which job do you have in real life. Have you studied a subject where you learned all of that?
Of course if this is too private information you don't need to answer the questions.
 
O

October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
I don't have a job, which is how I learned all of it in real life hahahaha
 
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LesbianCarpetPython

LesbianCarpetPython

Smell lord
Sep 24, 2022
151
I'd say capitalism just because of how many countries use it
 
flightless bird

flightless bird

somewhere over the rainbow
Aug 18, 2022
216
Yes but only when we accept the philosophy and approach of Marx. And I reject his metaphysical concept.
I'm not a Marxist but I'd argue that the materialist dialectic is perhaps the only method that isn't metaphysical in any way. With regard to empirical research and thoroughly objective understanding of phenomena, no other philosophical approach is as potent and encompassing as dialectical materialism.
 
S

Suicidе

Life is unacceptable
Sep 11, 2022
63
breeders
 
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Ironweed

Ironweed

Nauseated.
Nov 9, 2019
323
Since in the fully-formed proletariat the abstraction of all humanity, even of the semblance of humanity, is practically complete; since the conditions of life of the proletariat sum up all the conditions of life of society today in their most inhuman form; since man has lost himself in the proletariat, yet at the same time has not only gained theoretical consciousness of that loss, but through urgent, no longer removable, no longer disguisable, absolutely imperative need — the practical expression of necessity — is driven directly to revolt against this inhumanity, it follows that the proletariat can and must emancipate itself. But it cannot emancipate itself without abolishing the conditions of its own life. It cannot abolish the conditions of its own life without abolishing all the inhuman conditions of life of society today which are summed up in its own situation.
What exactly is a "fully-formed proletariat?" And can you point to any individual in particular in human history who has achieved this status? Marx himself would obviously not qualify, he was in fact a nasty piece of work in his personal life.
 
O

October112021

Student
Oct 8, 2022
141
What exactly is a "fully-formed proletariat?" And can you point to any individual in particular in human history who has achieved this status? Marx himself would obviously not qualify, he was in fact a nasty piece of work in his personal life.
The working class is constantly being produced and reproduced in different forms throughout history. In Marx's day, a big chunk if the working class had small family plots to grow food on or small woods in their name to rely on. In the 20th century they often had stocks or other investments, though working class ownership of land was less common and suburban tract homes and urban apartments were less amenable to agricultural pursuits. Gradually, however, what is produced is a totally propertyless, purely servile working class with no chance to become anything but. It is this propertyless, fully formed proletariat that is Marx's revolutionary subject. Hence the World Economic Forum's "Own Nothing, Be Happy".

Not there yet. Won't be for awhile. But you can certainly see that we are trending in that direction.




This state of propertylessness makes this working class infinitely more vulnerable to economic downturns than the proletariat of many generations previously, and hence far more revolutionary.

You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths. You reproach us, therefore, with intending to do away with a form of property, the necessary condition for whose existence is the non-existence of any property for the immense majority of society.

- The Communist Manifesto
 
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