Discussion What will happen if the cost of keeping one alive outweighs the cost of voluntary euthanasia?

[TAW122]

This is a scenario that I've been curious from time to time. Given the reality of the world now (speaking from the US specifically, but other countries may be applicable too), with inflation, social issues, and how the world is going in terms of quality of life and such, I do believe that the cost of living will increase and get worse. Additionally, with the aging population as well as diseases and increase of cost of healthcare treatment, the cost of an adult's healthcare throughout their lifetime is $320,000 (source: Well U) while the cost of end of life care for an average patient is $67,192 per (source: Debt.org), so I believe there will come a point where the current way of things as well as the status quo will not be sustainable.

As more and more people seek out healthcare services, the resources in healthcare are finite and can only handle so much (just look at covid and how thin the budget is spread). However, the cost of voluntary euthanasia, even on the more expensive end, costs ₣11,000 (or €15,000) (source: Dignitas brochure) for the entire process, including consultations, preparations, the drug, and the aftermath. What would happen if it becomes such that the cost of end of life care far surpasses that of voluntary euthanasia? Would there be a shift/change in policy including the relaxing of death with dignity laws and/or even expansion into eligibility criteria (non-terminal physical illnesses, and long long term, non-terminal non-physical/psychological illnesses)?

Just putting some numbers into perspective, the cost of the US military budget (cite cost of US military budget (put into perspective)), is $1.33T as of 2023 (source: UsaSpending.gov)!

A common argument: For profit healthcare over the patients' wishes
A common argument is that the government and healthcare system makes more profit keeping a patient alive than a dead patient, and much more so during end of life care. However, that is only a small percentage, so if that number skyrocketed to perhaps, 10x-20x the current amount, perhaps there will a point where the cost of end of life care (on a large scale) cannot be sustained, thus forcing a shift in public perception, a shift in policy, and/or push towards voluntary euthanasia? I know Canada and some Western European countries are examples of these but perhaps other countries joining in/following suit?

I believe that just economically alone (notwithstanding the morals and ethics, which of course are factors), or solely on the financial aspect of this matter, I believe we could really save much more by allowing a peaceful dignified exit than having people persist in intolerable states of existence. Of course, this would be much more than just a handful of people accessing voluntary euthanasia, death with dignity, or similar programs. Since money is not free, it has to come from somewhere, and of course, is finite, I believe there would be some sort of change that will occur in the system, again just based on the financial aspect and bottom line. Perhaps when honoring patients' wishes becomes more profitable (and of course more ethical and just), maybe this would be the tipping point in which patients are no longer sadistically milked for all the money that they have (if they do have money to begin with), but instead, society having a more open consideration and tolerance for the right to die.

So after stating the facts and giving the statistics, do you think that (at least in the US or similar countries), there would be a change in policy if/when it becomes more profitable to let someone have a graceful, peaceful dignified death rather than to squeeze out every bit of money out of a suffering patient?

 

[Leavesfromthevine]

I highly doubt it. The US is a country where debt is so common as it is so I wouldn't be surprised if they just get more debt even if they can't afford it. It's going to be nearly impossible to change peoples perspective on life and death because for a multitude of reasons people see life as worth it even if it's not ideal living.

I feel at most the hospitals and insurance companies will just find ways to keep prices just barely affordable for their patient. Most likely by extended the payment period similar to how they're doing with car loans.

I might have missed it from my quick scan of the sources but this also didn't say the age that most of this accrued in. Usually the older you get the worse your health gets therefore you'll be in the hospital more. Most people who are older have a limited income so they'll never pay back any medical debt and I'm not sure if that gets passed down to loved ones or not.

All of this is just opinions I have so nothing too factual.

 

[DEATH IS FREEDOM]

It is more expensive to live than to die because people live so long and everything is so expensive. I live in a country without euthanasia, in a country where patients are tormented on their deathbeds for years, they are expected to die as slowly as possible and this is costing the taxpayers a lot of money. Yet, people don´t complain about that, they complain about unemployment and sick leave. People don´t have the right to die quickly with the help of a doctor. People are so afraid of death that they do anything to avoid it. But to prevent death is to prevent the inevitable. This stupidity and cruelty will change in the future, but that will be too late for me.

 

[Brown-Jacket Revy]

We're already at that point.

Most people (with big insurance policies) are worth more dead than alive.

 

[TAW122]

I highly doubt it. The US is a country where debt is so common as it is so I wouldn't be surprised if they just get more debt even if they can't afford it. It's going to be nearly impossible to change peoples perspective on life and death because for a multitude of reasons people see life as worth it even if it's not ideal living.

I feel at most the hospitals and insurance companies will just find ways to keep prices just barely affordable for their patient. Most likely by extended the payment period similar to how they're doing with car loans.

I might have missed it from my quick scan of the sources but this also didn't say the age that most of this accrued in. Usually the older you get the worse your health gets therefore you'll be in the hospital more. Most people who are older have a limited income so they'll never pay back any medical debt and I'm not sure if that gets passed down to loved ones or not.

All of this is just opinions I have so nothing too factual.

Yeah that's a scenario where I don't think I'd find to be acceptable, being in a society that worships life above all else, and is designed to force people to live against their will at (just about) every turn and every corner. With regards to the 2nd sentence, this kind of scenario would be similar to the US debt, student loan bubble, housing bubble in a financial senses such that eventually people won't be able to pay it all off (can't get blood from a turnip axiom). Finally, yes, it is true that the older one gets, the more medical problems one may have, even those who lived a relatively healthy life-style for most their lifetime. I don't know if it passes down the loved ones or next of kin, but that wouldn't stop debt collectors from harassing and hounding a family for the debt that one of their loved ones' had.

It is more expensive to live than to die because people live so long and everything is so expensive. I live in a country without euthanasia, in a country where patients are tormented on their deathbeds for years, they are expected to die as slowly as possible and this is costing the taxpayers a lot of money. Yet, people don´t complain about that, they complain about unemployment and sick leave. People don´t have the right to die quickly with the help of a doctor. People are so afraid of death that they do anything to avoid it. But to prevent death is to prevent the inevitable. This stupidity and cruelty will change in the future, but that will be too late for me.

Sadly, that is true, the cost of living and existing is immense, while the cost of death (barring funeral, cleanup, and anything immediately after the deceased) is relatively cheap.

We're already at that point.

Most people (with big insurance policies) are worth more dead than alive.

Are you referring to people who have life insurance and their family or close relative/friend tries to cash in upon said person's death?

 

[Brown-Jacket Revy]

Are you referring to people who have life insurance and their family or close relative/friend tries to cash in upon said person's death?

Yes.

For example, when I was in the military, I had an insurance policy that if I died, my family would get $100,000.

Now? I literally have a net worth of about $80 bucks.

 

[J&L383]

This is really the ethical and moral discussion of our time. The reason why countries such as Canada are struggling with and when and how to further expand the MAID criteria and arguments against it. A person's decision to end their life with an state assisted death, or prolong their life at all costs, should be independent of any monetary costs associated with that, but it seems that that will be impossible to separate.

 

[doneforlife]

This is really the ethical and moral discussion of our time. The reason why countries such as Canada are struggling with and when and how to further expand the MAID criteria and arguments against it. A person's decision to end their life with an state assisted death, or prolong their life at all costs, should be independent of any monetary costs associated with that, but it seems that that will be impossible to separate.

Once you are in this world, nothing is independent of monetary costs.

 

[hellispink]

They dont carr. They need slaves to keep the economy running, they need slaves to drink their poison medicine from the pharma industry, they need slaves to keep making the billionaires and the millionaires (including musicians etc) more powerful and gaining more money. Without slaves they cant keep their throne , hence why they will never get rid of the slaves. They will find a way to make it work. Even if that means most people being unhappy stuck and unhealthy.

 

[TAW122]

Yes.

For example, when I was in the military, I had an insurance policy that if I died, my family would get $100,000.

Now? I literally have a net worth of about $80 bucks.

I see, and I suppose there should be more safeguards implemented in policies to prevent people from selfishly and unethically profiting off someone else's death, but that would be for another thread.

This is really the ethical and moral discussion of our time. The reason why countries such as Canada are struggling with and when and how to further expand the MAID criteria and arguments against it. A person's decision to end their life with an state assisted death, or prolong their life at all costs, should be independent of any monetary costs associated with that, but it seems that that will be impossible to separate.

Very true, and yes, given that we live in a world where money is involved at just about everything from basic necessities, to luxury, and more, it is impossible to avoid. However, I think there could be a balance between respecting people's rights on whether to continue living a life they deem tolerable. Sometimes I do wonder for countries like Canada, various EU countries (The Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Luxembourg, etc.), if their economy was better or more robust, whether they may just simply not have assisted suicide on the books? I recall reading something about the expensive cost of healthcare, an aging population, and economic slowdown may influence the change in policy. Nevertheless, regardless of the economic status of a country, I still believe the right to die is a civil rights and bodily autonomy issue that must be addressed.

Once you are in this world, nothing is independent of monetary costs.

True, even from the conception of life and birth, many costs are involved.

They dont carr. They need slaves to keep the economy running, they need slaves to drink their poison medicine from the pharma industry, they need slaves to keep making the billionaires and the millionaires (including musicians etc) more powerful and gaining more money. Without slaves they cant keep their throne , hence why they will never get rid of the slaves. They will find a way to make it work. Even if that means most people being unhappy stuck and unhealthy.

This is true throughout history, though with the evolution and expansion of AI (Artificial Intelligence), perhaps the powerful will seek to use that to help generate them income versus enslaving many unwilling sentient beings to make them rich? Then again, I also believe that there may be arguments that AI may even be used maliciously, to further curb the rights' of citizens to exercise bodily autonomy.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'd definitely say- follow the money in terms of how governments will act. That said- big pharmaceutical companies likely bribe- I mean- donate money to political parties and maybe even MP's to swing certain contracts. So- it may benefit them personally to support extended living.

It has to be supported by the public too. How many people are taking to the streets to protest that their little old granny should be given assistance in dying? Not many by the looks of it.

Plus- it could work against people. Maybe someone wants to fight their cancer etc. but they are denied the expensive drugs and offered assisted suicide instead. It would become very important that only those actually wishing to die are helped and it doesn't become expected of people!

 

[GhostShell]

Is it better to keep someone alive and miserable, or end their life?

I live in the glorious country of Europe. My disability is 1/2 of minimum wage. I would need about double minimum wage just to cover rent and food. The cost of supporting me is still objectively higher than the cost of letting me die. I am entirely dependend on the goodwill of other people (my wife in this case). My life would be horrible without her. The current law is already killing me, just more slowly and realllly letting me suffer for the maximum amount of time. I do not find this treatment ethical.

The opponents of euthanasia usually go "yeah but what if state gave you 4x the money! Then you would live a nice life! Instead you ctb because poor!" Unfortunately this wont happen. Just wont. It is a coocoo fairy land fantasy. I guess winning the lottery would help, but we cant all be winners in life. Euthanasia is the more compassionate choice than forced poverty.

 

[Brown-Jacket Revy]

I see, and I suppose there should be more safeguards implemented in policies to prevent people from selfishly and unethically profiting off someone else's death, but that would be for another thread.

You mean like someone murdering their spouse and then making it look like an accident?

Otherwise, the insurance policy exists because the person wants their loved ones to profit from their death.

That's literally the point of it.

 

[TAW122]

I'd definitely say- follow the money in terms of how governments will act. That said- big pharmaceutical companies likely bribe- I mean- donate money to political parties and maybe even MP's to swing certain contracts. So- it may benefit them personally to support extended living.

It has to be supported by the public too. How many people are taking to the streets to protest that their little old granny should be given assistance in dying? Not many by the looks of it.

Plus- it could work against people. Maybe someone wants to fight their cancer etc. but they are denied the expensive drugs and offered assisted suicide instead. It would become very important that only those actually wishing to die are helped and it doesn't become expected of people!

Good points and yes, if there becomes a time in the future where the cost of upkeep despite deplorable conditions (for the person) greatly outweighs the cost of voluntary euthanasia, then it may be more financially sensible that people cut their losses, but also, like you mentioned, that it would both depend on how much the person wishes to continue fighting against their illnesses and improving their quality of life (albeit poor), and their family. Yes, currently there just aren't many people who are willing to take to the streets to protest and demand for voluntary euthanasia/assisted suicide for those who are terminally ill or so. Though I reckon when there are more people who fit the criteria, perhaps there will be action and louder voices in the mainstream public for expanding eligibility for not just those who are terminally ill, but also for those who are living intolerable lives and cannot be ameliorated through treatment and such. I also agree that it shouldn't be used in a way that pushes people who otherwise wish to fight to live a better life to be denied the resources needed to make it happen. For that point, I would say start with curbing and curtailing the rampant, paternalistic CTB prevention measures that are spread everywhere even for those who don't wish to live. So instead of those resources going towards people who don't wish to live, that could be better used for people who wish to live.

Is it better to keep someone alive and miserable, or end their life?

I live in the glorious country of Europe. My disability is 1/2 of minimum wage. I would need about double minimum wage just to cover rent and food. The cost of supporting me is still objectively higher than the cost of letting me die. I am entirely dependend on the goodwill of other people (my wife in this case). My life would be horrible without her. The current law is already killing me, just more slowly and realllly letting me suffer for the maximum amount of time. I do not find this treatment ethical.

The opponents of euthanasia usually go "yeah but what if state gave you 4x the money! Then you would live a nice life! Instead you ctb because poor!" Unfortunately this wont happen. Just wont. It is a coocoo fairy land fantasy. I guess winning the lottery would help, but we cant all be winners in life. Euthanasia is the more compassionate choice than forced poverty.

I'm sorry to hear about your predicament and it is indeed rather shitty for sure. Good point with regards to the opponents of voluntary euthanasia trying to say that if the State (gov't) gave the disabled much more money, one could live a better life or such! It's just ignorance and arrogance (presumptuous) to assume that it would be the case for all. Maybe for people whose problems stem from financial reasons, but for those whose problems are philosophically and/or related to health, even money can only go so far. Sure there are experimental treatments, but would it be fair or reasonable to have them wait an inordinate amount of time (decades or perhaps almost their whole lifetime and beyond) for maybe some halfway decent solution? I don't think so.

Anyways, I agree that voluntary euthanasia is much more compassionate than forced poverty and/or prolonged suffering.

You mean like someone murdering their spouse and then making it look like an accident?

Otherwise, the insurance policy exists because the person wants their loved ones to profit from their death.

That's literally the point of it.

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I suppose there are people who want their loved ones to benefit from it, and from that point of view, I could claim that those who take out life insurance for their family or loved ones is rather a selfless act on their behalf.

 

[Little_Suzy]

I don't think life insurance beneficiaries profit from death!

It creates generational wealth, so your family won't suffer or be in debt. Especially if you were raised in the middle class and had to pay your way into adulthood with student loans, auto loans, and mortgages. Now, you're married with kids.

When your parents die, and you're a middle-aged adult, you can pay off your mortgage, college loans, auto loans and start fresh with no debt.

If your parents can't afford life insurance, your siblings and you should buy a policy and divide it equally. I believe that every child should buy life insurance on their parents, because if you bring children into this expensive world, you should secure their future. This is not profit from death; this is your family's legacy.

I doubt that, unless we demand it, the US will legalize assisted suicide. Dr. Kevorkian was vilified and incarcerated. Boycott the mental health industry! Cancel your therapy, medications, and psych wards! lol

Mental illness has no cure; the mental health sector is the real profiteer!

 

[lostinmythoughts]

This is a scenario that I've been curious from time to time. Given the reality of the world now (speaking from the US specifically, but other countries may be applicable too), with inflation, social issues, and how the world is going in terms of quality of life and such, I do believe that the cost of living will increase and get worse. Additionally, with the aging population as well as diseases and increase of cost of healthcare treatment, the cost of an adult's healthcare throughout their lifetime is $320,000 (source: Well U) while the cost of end of life care for an average patient is $67,192 per (source: Debt.org), so I believe there will come a point where the current way of things as well as the status quo will not be sustainable.

As more and more people seek out healthcare services, the resources in healthcare are finite and can only handle so much (just look at covid and how thin the budget is spread). However, the cost of voluntary euthanasia, even on the more expensive end, costs ₣11,000 (or €15,000) (source: Dignitas brochure) for the entire process, including consultations, preparations, the drug, and the aftermath. What would happen if it becomes such that the cost of end of life care far surpasses that of voluntary euthanasia? Would there be a shift/change in policy including the relaxing of death with dignity laws and/or even expansion into eligibility criteria (non-terminal physical illnesses, and long long term, non-terminal non-physical/psychological illnesses)?

Just putting some numbers into perspective, the cost of the US military budget (cite cost of US military budget (put into perspective)), is $1.33T as of 2023 (source: UsaSpending.gov)!

A common argument: For profit healthcare over the patients' wishes
A common argument is that the government and healthcare system makes more profit keeping a patient alive than a dead patient, and much more so during end of life care. However, that is only a small percentage, so if that number skyrocketed to perhaps, 10x-20x the current amount, perhaps there will a point where the cost of end of life care (on a large scale) cannot be sustained, thus forcing a shift in public perception, a shift in policy, and/or push towards voluntary euthanasia? I know Canada and some Western European countries are examples of these but perhaps other countries joining in/following suit?

I believe that just economically alone (notwithstanding the morals and ethics, which of course are factors), or solely on the financial aspect of this matter, I believe we could really save much more by allowing a peaceful dignified exit than having people persist in intolerable states of existence. Of course, this would be much more than just a handful of people accessing voluntary euthanasia, death with dignity, or similar programs. Since money is not free, it has to come from somewhere, and of course, is finite, I believe there would be some sort of change that will occur in the system, again just based on the financial aspect and bottom line. Perhaps when honoring patients' wishes becomes more profitable (and of course more ethical and just), maybe this would be the tipping point in which patients are no longer sadistically milked for all the money that they have (if they do have money to begin with), but instead, society having a more open consideration and tolerance for the right to die.

So after stating the facts and giving the statistics, do you think that (at least in the US or similar countries), there would be a change in policy if/when it becomes more profitable to let someone have a graceful, peaceful dignified death rather than to squeeze out every bit of money out of a suffering patient?

I agree and it should be but it's not. As a US citizen, monthly, I pay almost $250 Gaz money to make it to work only, $500 car note also to make it to work, $300 car insurance, $1200 house rent, $250 electricity, $100 water, $200 phone & internet, $1000 food. How much you think I'm making to cover all that?? I honestly want to die asap. Oh plus they use our taxes money to kill children in other countries like really I'm working to pay for murdering people in other countries?! To continue with this life is impossible for me..

 

[TAW122]

I don't think life insurance beneficiaries profit from death!

It creates generational wealth, so your family won't suffer or be in debt. Especially if you were raised in the middle class and had to pay your way into adulthood with student loans, auto loans, and mortgages. Now, you're married with kids.

When your parents die, and you're a middle-aged adult, you can pay off your mortgage, college loans, auto loans and start fresh with no debt.

If your parents can't afford life insurance, your siblings and you should buy a policy and divide it equally. I believe that every child should buy life insurance on their parents, because if you bring children into this expensive world, you should secure their future. This is not profit from death; this is your family's legacy.

I doubt that, unless we demand it, the US will legalize assisted suicide. Dr. Kevorkian was vilified and incarcerated. Boycott the mental health industry! Cancel your therapy, medications, and psych wards! lol

Mental illness has no cure; the mental health sector is the real profiteer!

Interesting perspective and I agree with the last two paragraphs, the mental health industry really preys on the vulnerable and tries to profit as much as possible! This isn't to say that there aren't legitimate cases where people are helped (there are, just not as many as the media and public believes), but for the amount of people who aren't helped, or worse yet, harmed, is still greater. It just isn't talked about as much.

Regarding the US not legalizing assisted suicide since there isn't enough public support for it, maybe there could be a future where the dystopic society becomes too much that people would rather opt out or become less productive, and then demand for reform or change in the system, rather than more paternalistic measures implemented to curtail a citizen's civil rights. It is indeed a shame that Dr. Kevorkian was vilified even when he explicitly had the patient's wishes in mind, including allowing non-terminally patients exit suffering. If anything, he should be lauded as a hero towards humanity and bringing peace to those who don't wish to suffer needlessly!

I agree and it should be but it's not. As a US citizen, monthly, I pay almost $250 Gaz money to make it to work only, $500 car note also to make it to work, $300 car insurance, $1200 house rent, $250 electricity, $100 water, $200 phone & internet, $1000 food. How much you think I'm making to cover all that?? I honestly want to die asap. Oh plus they use our taxes money to kill children in other countries like really I'm working to pay for murdering people in other countries?! To continue with this life is impossible for me..

Yeah that really sucks and more oftenly than not, a lot of people are living from paycheck to paycheck, and one disaster/emergency situation is all it takes to screw everything up and one can easily become destitute over a life-changing event. It sucks and there is almost no real safety net there.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

It's going to be nearly impossible to change peoples perspective on life and death because for a multitude of reasons people see life as worth it even if it's not ideal living.

Exactly this. No matter how bad things get nowadays, people will always justify living by saying that our times is better than what people in history had to go through hence living is beautiful

 

[Grav]

For example, when I was in the military, I had an insurance policy that if I died, my family would get $100,000.

I was only worth 50k.

It'll happen eventually. They just have to figure out how to not pay insurance out and remove legal responsibility from the place it's done. I have no date but I've had more conversations with people who don't want to be some husk on a machine or housed somewhere; whether or not they'll ctb or hope for some life ending illness is yet to be seen. I doubt we'll see Soylent Green world but I do think a system of offering it, and "wink, wink, c'mon man just sign" deals to those who can't afford luxury care and need to be out of the system.

 

[lostinmythoughts]

Interesting perspective and I agree with the last two paragraphs, the mental health industry really preys on the vulnerable and tries to profit as much as possible! This isn't to say that there aren't legitimate cases where people are helped (there are, just not as many as the media and public believes), but for the amount of people who aren't helped, or worse yet, harmed, is still greater. It just isn't talked about as much.

Regarding the US not legalizing assisted suicide since there isn't enough public support for it, maybe there could be a future where the dystopic society becomes too much that people would rather opt out or become less productive, and then demand for reform or change in the system, rather than more paternalistic measures implemented to curtail a citizen's civil rights. It is indeed a shame that Dr. Kevorkian was vilified even when he explicitly had the patient's wishes in mind, including allowing non-terminally patients exit suffering. If anything, he should be lauded as a hero towards humanity and bringing peace to those who don't wish to suffer needlessly!


Yeah that really sucks and more oftenly than not, a lot of people are living from paycheck to paycheck, and one disaster/emergency situation is all it takes to screw everything up and one can easily become destitute over a life-changing event. It sucks and there is almost no real safety net there.

I know right? That's why im determined about my suicide I'm hoping to find my plan soon…