Venting What’s the point in getting therapy if I don’t believe in it?

[Dr Iron Arc]

If I may ramble a bit: I'm well aware that one of if not the most common answers to most internal problems just ends up being "seek therapy lol". I can't even resist the urge to offer this useless advice myself when asked for suggestions about someone else's challenging mental health issues. It's such a ubiquitous thing to recommend yet many of us here know it isn't the miracle solution it promises to be.

Today I was supposed to try getting a new therapist for myself to stop having panic attacks at work. The therapist I was previously seeing a few months ago dropped me after two sessions because she claimed I needed a psychiatrist. Well I spent the next couple months seeing a psychiatrist only for him to not prescribe me any medication beyond an antihistamine and for him to also drop me and claim that only talk therapy could help me. I ended up wasting today away not getting anything useful done but my managers at work strongly suggested I try again to get a different therapist after my last panic attack on Friday.

I think that process was such a pain in the ass. I already got rejected from the therapy services my primary care hospital provides. I guess because they don't believe anxiety is real or something. It's just as well. Like the title says, I just don't really even BELIEVE in therapy.

From what I can tell, it does nothing to actually solve people's problems. All it does is trick people into thinking their lives are good enough without fixing anything. It's like brainwashing and gaslighting to the extreme. What makes it even more egregious is anytime you try to point out the genuine flaws in being forced to cope with an irrational system, you just get hit with "Nuh uh, maybe YOU need to stop gaslighting yourself lol". They really can't come up with anything better than a "No You!"?

Sure therapy can be useful for some people, but so far it hasn't proved helpful at all to me. Continuing to feed everyone else's delusion isn't going to solve my own. Knowing all this, is it even worth it for me to even try? I don't think a therapist really can help me get over my crush. The only thing that can would be moving on to someone else or dying. I don't have anyone else to move on to at this point and dying is also not an option yet because I still have CTB plans to prepare for.

 

[willow115]

I think deep analytical therapy can impact the psyche. The provider needs to really evaluate your mind and know human nature, our ultimate needs and motivation. I prefer the jungian style. The small, mundane chat therapy style can open up some place of being heard and shared humanity but it's greatly limited. Little chats don't work, but deep psychological mind dumps and processing can. I'm pretty treatment resistant but I still have experienced that. That would analyze why your mind has focused in on the crush or why work in particular is a place closing in on you. Our driving forces and absolute fears can become fully revealed and known. That helps gain some control. In my experience, it brings a tiny bit of peace to know my psyche more at the very least. It brought me forgiveness and less shame. A lot of people try to do a massive awakening and download of this with psychedelics.

These providers also can't meet our needs to cure us. If we're touch starved, psychologically tormented by real experiences, have a negative existential perspective, etc all they really do is open up our minds to that. From there we need to be open to potential shifts of perspective. We also still have human needs that may or may not be met. We can't pay for that anywhere.

I personally would get some benzos if the therapy journey isn't for me. There's not much a good benzo won't fix. I have extreme anxiety and it can shut my nervous system down. That can have longterm problems but benzos have saved me at my worst.

 

[alienfreak]

I feel similarly. Maybe we have to waste our time and energy on it just to make the psychiatrists realise it wont work on us so we can get better medication. I also wonder how it affects interactions with other people since they think you 'arent trying' or something if you dont go to therapy. I suppose these are reasons to do it even if it has no real effectiveness or worse.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I feel similarly. Maybe we have to waste our time and energy on it just to make the psychiatrists realise it wont work on us so we can get better medication. I also wonder how it affects interactions with other people since they think you 'arent trying' or something if you dont go to therapy. I suppose these are reasons to do it even if it has no real effectiveness or worse.

Most of the people who shove therapy in my face can't even admit it actually benefits them, and they also can't admit that they only offer it as advice because they're out of ideas.

Even people who have therapy seemingly can't absorb its full benefits because the field itself is overwhelmed with the masses.

 

[alienfreak]

I personally would get some benzos if the therapy journey isn't for me. There's not much a good benzo won't fix. I have extreme anxiety and it can shut my nervous system down. That can have longterm problems but benzos have saved me at my worst.

The only reason im dealing with the medical system is to try to get a continuing prescription to take on the worst days and/or important events

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I think deep analytical therapy can impact the psyche. The provider needs to really evaluate your mind and know human nature, our ultimate needs and motivation. I prefer the jungian style. The small, mundane chat therapy style can open up some place of being heard and shared humanity but it's greatly limited. Little chats don't work, but deep psychological mind dumps and processing can. I'm pretty treatment resistant but I still have experienced that. That would analyze why your mind has focused in on the crush or why work in particular is a place closing in on you. Our driving forces and absolute fears can become fully revealed and known. That helps gain some control. In my experience, it brings a tiny bit of peace to know my psyche more at the very least. It brought me forgiveness and less shame. A lot of people try to do a massive awakening and download of this with psychedelics.

These providers also can't meet our needs to cure us. If we're touch starved, psychologically tormented by real experiences, have a negative existential perspective, etc all they really do is open up our minds to that. From there we need to be open to potential shifts of perspective. We also still have human needs that may or may not be met. We can't pay for that anywhere.

I personally would get some benzos if the therapy journey isn't for me. There's not much a good benzo won't fix. I have extreme anxiety and it can shut my nervous system down. That can have longterm problems but benzos have saved me at my worst.

I feel like being able to go deeper with a therapist is also a dead end since most roads tend to lead to suicide anyway for me and if I say that most of them are just gonna have me hospitalized.

Benzodiazepines was something the psychiatrist specifically said he didn't want to prescribe me. I can't remember the reason why but maybe it was because I mentioned I'm awful at remembering to actually take medicine most of the time until it's already too late. He did suggest SSRIs but I've seen enough horror stories on this website to know I will never let those horrible things anywhere near my body.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I think deep analytical therapy can impact the psyche. The provider needs to really evaluate your mind and know human nature, our ultimate needs and motivation. I prefer the jungian style.

Psychoanalysis is literally bullshit. It isn't practiced that much anymore because there isn't much evidence to back a lot of it up. A lot of the stuff by Carl Jung isn't used by most professionals for a reason.

 

[Unspoken7612]

I do think CBT is useful for helping to challenge unrealistic thoughts and cognitive distortions, as well as allowing yourself to let go of passing thoughts. I'm not saying that is what you are experiencing, but it is common for people with anxiety.

Behavioural activation can also be really useful for some people. Mindfulness can be a game changer. I even learned some stuff from ACT, where I had a really confrontational therapist.

Therapy isn't going to solve all your problems, unless your problems all stem from cognitive distortions or something like that. What it might do is make it easier for you to solve your problems, or take steps towards solving them, yourself.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I do think CBT is useful for helping to challenge unrealistic thoughts and cognitive distortions, as well as allowing yourself to let go of passing thoughts. I'm not saying that is what you are experiencing, but it is common for people with anxiety.

Behavioural activation can also be really useful for some people. Mindfulness can be a game changer. I even learned some stuff from ACT, where I had a really confrontational therapist.

Therapy isn't going to solve all your problems, unless your problems all stem from cognitive distortions or something like that. What it might do is make it easier for you to solve your problems, or take steps towards solving them, yourself.

I hate mindfulness stuff. Tried it once and it just gave me a headache. I don't have the patience for it.

CBT might as well be equivalent to C and B Torture with how useless and painful it is. My thoughts and feelings may be unrealistic, but changing them isn't going to solve anything because the circumstances that create these thoughts will continue to exist. I don't know about other people but to say I have control over my thoughts is wishful thinking because I don't. Nothing I do actually controls them and whenever I am presented with alternate theories, they're usually even more idiotic than what I came up with.

Even if there is some magical obscure therapy technique that would work for me I'm sure the average therapist themself is ill-equipped to deal with me. The fact I've already been dropped by two professionals in quick succession just goes to show how I can't be helped.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I hate mindfulness stuff. Tried it once and it just gave me a headache. I don't have the patience for it.

CBT might as well be equivalent to C and B Torture with how useless and painful it is. My thoughts and feelings may be unrealistic, but changing them isn't going to solve anything because the circumstances that create these thoughts will continue to exist. I don't know about other people but to say I have control over my thoughts is wishful thinking because I don't. Nothing I do actually controls them and whenever I am presented with alternate theories, they're usually even more idiotic than what I came up with.

I like the issue here is your mindset. I don't have any real experience with therapy (I've only had a bit of counselling before (and that was back when I was in elementary) along with some surprisingly extensive experience with child social workers) so excuse my ignorance, but for these things to even have a chance at working you probably would have to come at them with an open mind and an actual willingness to change. Not bothering to try just because of a lack of patience and a lack of open-mindedness is obviously going to lead to nothing happening. Therapy is something that probably requires that you put in the work and give it an actual chance. This sort of stagnant mindset ("I have no control over my thoughts", "nothing will change", "I only tried it once and now I'm going to give up") is unproductive. You can't potentially be helped if you don't want to even try in the first place. And I'm saying all of this as someone who never wants to even go near a therapist (yuck!).

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I like the issue here is your mindset. I don't have any real experience with therapy (I've only had a bit of counselling before (and that was back when I was in elementary) along with some surprisingly extensive experience with child social workers) so excuse my ignorance, but for these things to even have a chance at working you probably would have to come at them with an open mind and an actual willingness to change. Not bothering to try just because of a lack of patience and a lack of open-mindedness is obviously going to lead to nothing happening. Therapy is something that probably requires that you put in the work and give it an actual chance. This sort of stagnant mindset ("I have no control over my thoughts", "nothing will change", "I only tried it once and now I'm going to give up") is unproductive. You can't potentially be helped if you don't want to even try in the first place. And I'm saying all of this as someone who never wants to even go near a therapist (yuck!).

You're right, and I guess it's the problem I originally had in mind when making this thread is that how am I even supposed to have therapy work for me if I just don't believe in it? It's the same problem I had with church which is that it seems like God only cares to help people who actually believe in him. Therapy is even worse though because it's also asking me to believe in myself and I just don't see that ever happening. I am at least aware I have a mindset issue but I just can't see a world where I ever actually change mine willingly.

 

[-Link-]

From what I can tell, it does nothing to actually solve people's problems. All it does is trick people into thinking their lives are good enough without fixing anything.

Therapy isn't meant to solve anyone's problems. It's meant to teach the tools a patient can use to solve their problems on their own. In some cases, the therapy itself can be a tool (eg. regular sessions of talk therapy), but this doesn't apply to everyone.

For unsolvable problems, it goes towards learning how to better cope with the status quo -- making peace with a situation rather than deluding oneself.

I don't think a therapist really can help me get over my crush.

A therapist cannot help anyone get over a crush, but the techniques and insights learned in therapy can be applied to many situations in life, including an unwanted crush.

An example of one possible approach to this: Do you actually want to get over your crush? In some cases, a crush can be used as a subconscious avoidance technique -- spending time fixating on a person as a means of avoiding some other aspect of life. Doubly so if it's to a point of limerence involving full-on dissociative episodes, making it outright addictive in addition to its usage as an avoidance technique.

So, if that hypothetical was actually an insight you learned through therapy, that would be one way you could defeat the thoughts about a crush: You'd ask yourself, "What am I avoiding by focusing on this person?" You'd acknowledge it as an avoidance technique and then redirect your thoughts accordingly.

What techniques would be fitting for you in this situation? That depends on the inner workings of your own mind. This is where the therapist comes in -- not to solve your problems for you, but to help you with introspection and gaining insights into what makes you think, feel, and behave as you do. This, towards making you better equipped to handle problems in life.

Benzodiazepines was something the psychiatrist specifically said he didn't want to prescribe me. I can't remember the reason why but maybe it was because I mentioned I'm awful at remembering to actually take medicine most of the time until it's already too late. He did suggest SSRIs but I've seen enough horror stories on this website to know I will never let those horrible things anywhere near my body.

Benzos are extremely addictive and, if taken daily, develop tolerance before much time on them at all, followed quickly by a physical dependence with godawful withdrawals to come off them. These are better taken on an as-needed basis at a rate no more than 2-3 times per month.

When looking at medication options, it's always a risks-to-benefits ratio. The hesitancy with SSRIs: Is this a concern for post-SSRI sexual dysfunction (PSSD)? The odds of this happening are extremely low. But even if that's a dealbreaker for you, you could look at alternative options like bupropion, mirtazapine, or vilazodone which are not known for these side effects.

Knowing all this, is it even worth it for me to even try?

You're already demonstrating a degree of interest (on some level) just by posting this thread.

I'd think about the pros and cons of trying to change, as well as the pros and cons of staying the same. I'd also think about any goals you might have in mind -- small goals, medium goals, big goals -- and how different therapy options might be able to help with those.

Also, I'd say it partly depends on how much therapy you've actually done. And which types of treatment programs you've tried. If what you've said in this thread is the extent of your experience in therapy, then yes, I'd suggest it's worth a try, at least to give them a chance to tell you about what different treatment options actually look like.

But I'd probably hold off on that until if/when you can go into it with an open mind.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

In my own experience, while therapy doesn't "cure" me by any means, it's drastically better for me than without. My therapist recently left and I've been slowly losing it even on meds, so I know having therapy was also important to keeping me stable. What also proves to me it was keeping me stable is before I went to therapy I would cry every week, I don't even cry once a month now.
It also took a number of therapists before I went to her too though, so I get how much of a struggle it is to find a good therapist, too.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Therapy isn't meant to solve anyone's problems. It's meant to teach the tools a patient can use to solve their problems on their own. In some cases, the therapy itself can be a tool (eg. regular sessions of talk therapy), but this doesn't apply to everyone.

If this is the case then why does everyone who keeps recommending it to me treat it as if it's going to completely solve all my problems? Why even bother giving me tools if I'm too stupid and incompetent to use them anyway?

For unsolvable problems, it goes towards learning how to better cope with the status quo -- making peace with a situation rather than deluding oneself.

I don't really see these tools working anyway because like I said, I must be too idiotic for them to even work for me. Making peace with objectively bad situations still sounds like delusion to me but I guess that's where I'm stuck too.

A therapist cannot help anyone get over a crush, but the techniques and insights learned in therapy can be applied to many situations in life, including an unwanted crush.

An example of one possible approach to this: Do you actually want to get over your crush? In some cases, a crush can be used as a subconscious avoidance technique -- spending time fixating on a person as a means of avoiding some other aspect of life. Doubly so if it's to a point of limerence involving full-on dissociative episodes, making it outright addictive in addition to its usage as an avoidance technique.

I feel like what I want is irrelevant because I don't actually even fully know what I want in this regard. If you asked me my answer would be "of course I do" but if you ask why then the only reason I can come up with is for her sake because I know I'm genuinely being a nuisance at best to her and a nightmare at worst. Of course I also do want to get over her just so I can actually move forward with CTB plans or at least maybe on to a different person to inevitably torment. But then if all that's the case, why is it still so hard for me? A therapist isn't going to know because they're just going to keep asking me until I give them some bullshit answer like a long "Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh". Clearly some parts of me do want to stay in limerence with her or else it would be so much easier to just stop. Or maybe it's my subconscious since these anxiety symptoms are manifesting into physical dangers. I don't know. I don't have a good answer so why the hell would a therapist be able to have one?

So, if that hypothetical was actually an insight you learned through therapy, that would be one way you could defeat the thoughts about a crush: You'd ask yourself, "What am I avoiding by focusing on this person?" You'd acknowledge it as an avoidance technique and then redirect your thoughts accordingly.

As I said before I'm really dumb. I don't really understand either what I am avoiding by staying into her. If anything, I'd much rather just avoid her entirely by killing myself or at least moving to another job but I'm just too inept to commit to those at the moment. Maybe one could argue I only got into her in the first place to avoid having to kill myself earlier this year. Even if that's true though it's something I still can't tell a therapist though because of their seedy willingness to throw all trust aside in favor of forcing people to stay alive and save their own hides from scrutiny.

What techniques would be fitting for you in this situation? That depends on the inner workings of your own mind. This is where the therapist comes in -- not to solve your problems for you, but to help you with introspection and gaining insights into what makes you think, feel, and behave as you do. This, towards making you better equipped to handle problems in life.

I do introspection all the time though as seen through my many thousands of posts on this forum and no matter how long I do it, I always happen upon the same answer: which is that I am evil and that my life isn't worth living. No amount of therapy can undo the damage I've done or make me into a better person and even if it could, the result just wouldn't be worth the effort it may take. This is another thing I can't tell a therapist unless I want a trip to the psych ward which many people say they completely regret.

Benzos are extremely addictive and, if taken daily, develop tolerance before much time on them at all, followed quickly by a physical dependence with godawful withdrawals to come off them. These are better taken on an as-needed basis at a rate no more than 2-3 times per month.

When looking at medication options, it's always a risks-to-benefits ratio. The hesitancy with SSRIs: Is this a concern for post-SSRI sexual dysfunction (PSSD)? The odds of this happening are extremely low. But even if that's a dealbreaker for you, you could look at alternative options like bupropion, mirtazapine, or vilazodone which are not known for these side effects.

That description of Benzos does sound familiar and I guess that's why my psychiatrist denied it to me. He never mentioned those other things though even when I asked if there was anything else more obscure he could offer me. He said nope so either he's an idiot and had no idea about these alternatives or maybe they have other hidden side effects I wouldn't want.

In reference to SSRIs, yes there's the sexual dysfunction side effects (low odds always become high odds for me when they're bad) that really bother me but even more than that is from what I hear: even for the people it works for and have no side effects it just leaves them emotionally dead and unable to truly feel happiness anymore. I still cling on to my favorite interests and for me to lose those would probably just make me even worse off so no thanks. I told the psychiatrist this much and that's when he said that only talk therapy could help me instead.

You're already demonstrating a degree of interest (on some level) just by posting this thread.

I'd think about the pros and cons of trying to change, as well as the pros and cons of staying the same. I'd also think about any goals you might have in mind -- small goals, medium goals, big goals -- and how different therapy options might be able to help with those.

My only two goals are 1) to stay alive for just a few more months in order to experience the things I'm waiting for only to eventually CTB and 2) to get a girlfriend. Therapy can't seem to help with either it seems because I'll never change anyway, except for the worse.

Also, I'd say it partly depends on how much therapy you've actually done. And which types of treatment programs you've tried. If what you've said in this thread is the extent of your experience in therapy, then yes, I'd suggest it's worth a try, at least to give them a chance to tell you about what different treatment options actually look like.

But I'd probably hold off on that until if/when you can go into it with an open mind.

Well I've had other therapists before, at least three other ones and the first was even court-appointed when I was 16 years old after I was removed from my father's custody. Clearly none of it has stuck with me. My first therapist must have tried everything and knew none of it worked because eventually we were just passing through the court-mandated sessions by playing Chess and Checkers. The other two therapists I've had were from the two different universities I attended. The first one was probably the most helpful because she was able to pull some strings and prevent my GPA from falling when I was having a crisis about failing as an animation major. Unfortunately I dropped out of that school entirely and later when I picked up with the new therapist from the new university, I only got to see her like maybe once every three months. The focus of these sessions was on how I see myself as evil and hateful and all she had to offer against that was a flat "nuh-uh" everytime. It was frustrating because she also insisted I could totally get a girlfriend through dating apps and even after signing up for so many of them I had an absolute 0% success rate. This recent talk therapist I had also resorted to similar tactics of constantly trying to claim I'm actually quite handsome and charming but come on, anyone who looks at my posts, my interests, or even my face should know how much of a bold-faced lie that is. I wasn't buying it.

But as much as I've been so confrontational towards your reply, you're absolutely right that I would actually need an open mind with the next therapist. It's too bad that that probably isn't going to happen, because I already know from decades of introspection that the only force on earth that could possibly open my mind in any way is getting a girlfriend. I know because it almost happened before and it's the only trick that's ever worked. You'll just have to take my word for it that I've tried or at least considered everything else with due diligence. I'm sorry for not being able to be helped by your post.

In my own experience, while therapy doesn't "cure" me by any means, it's drastically better for me than without. My therapist recently left and I've been slowly losing it even on meds, so I know having therapy was also important to keeping me stable. What also proves to me it was keeping me stable is before I went to therapy I would cry every week, I don't even cry once a month now.
It also took a number of therapists before I went to her too though, so I get how much of a struggle it is to find a good therapist, too.

That's another thing to worry about I guess is becoming dependent on it even if it does work. I hate having to add more things to be dependent because I just get so much more anxious if or when they are no longer viable…

 

[Blue Dream]

I hate mindfulness stuff. Tried it once and it just gave me a headache. I don't have the patience for it.

Once...
The whole point of it is to learn to develop patience. Medicine is often bitter.

 

[Unspoken7612]

I'm too stupid and incompetent to use them anyway?


I don't really see these tools working anyway because like I said, I must be too idiotic for them to even work for me.


I'm really dumb
I'm just too inept t I am evil and that my life isn't worth living. No amount of therapy can undo the damage I've done or make me into a better person and even if it could,


(low odds always become high odds for me when they're bad)

I'll never change anyway, except for the worse.


he focus of these sessions was on how I see myself as evil and hateful... This recent talk therapist I had also resorted to similar tactics of constantly trying to claim I'm actually quite handsome and charming but come on, anyone who looks at my posts, my interests, or even my face should know how much of a bold-faced lie that is. I wasn't buying it.

But as much as I've been so confrontational towards your reply, you're absolutely right that I would actually need an open mind with the next therapist. It's too bad that that probably isn't going to happen, because I already know from decades of introspection that the only force on earth that could possibly open my mind in any way is getting a girlfriend. I know because it almost happened before and it's the only trick that's ever worked. You'll just have to take my word for it that I've tried or at least considered everything else with due diligence. I'm sorry for not being able to be helped by your post.


That's another thing to worry about I guess is becoming dependent on it even if it does work. I hate having to add more things to be dependent because I just get so much more anxious if or when they are no longer viable…

I've edited down your post to highlight the sheer amount of self-loathing going on here. It's the sort of self-hate that would only be truly appropriate if you are a murderer or if you steal money from vulnerable people.
This self-hatred cannot be good for you. It is very common for depressed people to hate themselves and have unrealistically negative impressions of themselves that they nonetheless believe to be entirely true. Robin Williams, Gary Speed, and Graham Thorpe are prominent examples of people who, despite being internationally famous and at the top of their fields, thought they were burdens on their loved ones and killed themselves.
One thing therapy might help is breaking some of those thought patterns and seeing yourself in a realistic light.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I've edited down your post to highlight the sheer amount of self-loathing going on here. It's the sort of self-hate that would only be truly appropriate if you are a murderer or if you steal money from vulnerable people.
This self-hatred cannot be good for you. It is very common for depressed people to hate themselves and have unrealistically negative impressions of themselves that they nonetheless believe to be entirely true. Robin Williams, Gary Speed, and Graham Thorpe are prominent examples of people who, despite being internationally famous and at the top of their fields, thought they were burdens on their loved ones and killed themselves.
One thing therapy might help is breaking some of those thought patterns and seeing yourself in a realistic light.

I guess it's no surprise that I am self-loathing though I am of the opinion that it shouldn't count as being unnecessarily self-loathing if it's objectively true, which as far as I'm aware it totally is. I'm no Robin Williams. I work at a chain store as a merchandise stocker. I don't believe I'm being too self-critical like some others may be because everything I'm saying about myself is the truth. I may not be a murderer or scammer, but I am fully cognizant of the fact that under the right conditions, I could be either of those things. Even when I'm trying to go out of my way to not be evil I still end up doing awful things like when I have these panic attacks in front of my crush at work. It not only inconveniences her but it also ends up screwing other people in my department over when I end up going home early. I fear no matter what I do I can't avoid causing trauma to her. Of course she doesn't reciprocate my feelings. No woman ever has and no woman ever should. I'd say she dodged a bullet by not liking me back but she unfortunately still had to take one by being liked by me in the first place. I know I must have caused her some form of trauma and who knows what other unspoken victims I've left behind?

 

[-Link-]

If this is the case then why does everyone who keeps recommending it to me treat it as if it's going to completely solve all my problems?

One component in any therapeutic process is giving yourself credit for the progress you make and goals you accomplish. This component tends to be underemphasized by practitioners and underutilized by patients. If these people have found success through therapy, they're basically attributing to external factors what they actually accomplished, themselves.

Making peace with objectively bad situations still sounds like delusion to me but I guess that's where I'm stuck too.

This is semantics, but delusion is a full-on denial of reality even in the face of categorically objective evidence right in front of you. Acknowledging the bad situation and making peace with the circumstances is about easing the inner turmoil going on within yourself.

The reality in front of you remains unchanged. The intended change is in how you react to it.

Clearly some parts of me do want to stay in limerence with her or else it would be so much easier to just stop. Or maybe it's my subconscious since these anxiety symptoms are manifesting into physical dangers. I don't know. I don't have a good answer so why the hell would a therapist be able to have one?

The therapist cannot give you these answers.

It's the role of the therapist to help you look within yourself to find answers to these kinds of questions. Sometimes it's as simple as asking you a straight-shooting, point-blank question. But most often, it's not going to be that simple.

As therapy is about gaining insights into how and why you think, feel, and behave as you do, as you gain these insights, you become better equipped to answer these kinds of questions.

So, your answers may come naturally to you by way of a totally different topic. Or you may just suddenly have a "light bulb moment" where the answer hits you suddenly -- not even necessarily in an appointment. It could happen totally randomly at any point in time, even outside of the context of whatever you're thinking about in the moment.

I do introspection all the time though as seen through my many thousands of posts on this forum and no matter how long I do it, I always happen upon the same answer: which is that I am evil and that my life isn't worth living. No amount of therapy can undo the damage I've done or make me into a better person and even if it could, the result just wouldn't be worth the effort it may take.

It's interesting you label yourself an idiot, dumb, stupid, etc. while at the same time articulating this amazing amount of introspection.

The problem here isn't one of idiocy, but rather depression which has tainted a lot of this introspection.

Depression creates a divide in the way we see things: distorted vs objectively. This again is where the therapist comes in: It's the role of the therapist to help the patient keep a balance and avoid those distortion traps.

In reference to SSRIs, yes there's the sexual dysfunction side effects (low odds always become high odds for me when they're bad) that really bother me but even more than that is from what I hear: even for the people it works for and have no side effects it just leaves them emotionally dead and unable to truly feel happiness anymore. I still cling on to my favorite interests and for me to lose those would probably just make me even worse off so no thanks.

With the risks-to-benefits ratio, you'd look at the risk of temporary emotional blunting compared to the potential of relief from persistent suffering.

I've experienced the emotional blunting of SSRIs. You'd ideally want to keep a medication journal where you track start dates, changes in dosage, any side effects, changes in mood, etc. This is preferable to relying on memory and helps pick up on negative effects faster. If you get hit with an unwanted effect, you'd just tell the doctor and look at coming off it and trying a different one.

But as much as I've been so confrontational towards your reply, you're absolutely right that I would actually need an open mind with the next therapist. It's too bad that that probably isn't going to happen, because I already know from decades of introspection that the only force on earth that could possibly open my mind in any way is getting a girlfriend. I know because it almost happened before and it's the only trick that's ever worked. You'll just have to take my word for it that I've tried or at least considered everything else with due diligence.

I think you're a good candidate for Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

You nixed this earlier, if I recall, comparing it to... a different... form of... therapy...

But seriously, yes. Your skeptical view in all of this: You remind me of me before I was exposed to any in-depth therapy. In my case, I was forced into treatment, and the mental healthcare system did me right and set me on a good path, at least for a while.

In your case, while this level of skepticism is problematic with regard to the odds of seeing meaningful progress in therapy, practitioners need to be pushing back against this a bit, at least to look for and dispel any preconceived notions or underlying biases on the part of the patient. I feel like they haven't pushed back hard enough or adequately enough with you thus far, so you'd probably want to approach it with a more open mind if only to compensate for their shortcomings in that sense.

The reason I'm thinking CBT for you is because you seem to have an amazing capacity for analyzing what's going on inside your mind, and this ability of self-analysis would give you a head-start in all things relating to CBT. Also, for as much introspection as you have here, it's clearly severely distorted via depression and anxiety, and CBT would help with this.

I'm sorry for not being able to be helped by your post.

I understand where you're coming from. Again, you remind me of me before I ever gave therapy a real shot.

You don't owe anybody here any apologies.

Whatever you're dealing with, whatever your choices are... You are surrounded here by people who understand the kind of suffering you're dealing with.

 

[Leiot]

Have you tried groups? I learned more in my bipolar group than I ever did in conventional therapy. Just being in a room with people who can actually understand what I was dealing with was really helpful. It's not quite as adversarial as a one-on-one discussion can be.

 

[Unspoken7612]

I guess it's no surprise that I am self-loathing though I am of the opinion that it shouldn't count as being unnecessarily self-loathing if it's objectively true, which as far as I'm aware it totally is. I'm no Robin Williams. I work at a chain store as a merchandise stocker. I don't believe I'm being too self-critical like some others may be because everything I'm saying about myself is the truth. I may not be a murderer or scammer, but I am fully cognizant of the fact that under the right conditions, I could be either of those things. Even when I'm trying to go out of my way to not be evil I still end up doing awful things like when I have these panic attacks in front of my crush at work. It not only inconveniences her but it also ends up screwing other people in my department over when I end up going home early. I fear no matter what I do I can't avoid causing trauma to her. Of course she doesn't reciprocate my feelings. No woman ever has and no woman ever should. I'd say she dodged a bullet by not liking me back but she unfortunately still had to take one by being liked by me in the first place. I know I must have caused her some form of trauma and who knows what other unspoken victims I've left behind?

Here's the thing - Robin Williams thought his self-critical thoughts were the "objective truth" too. When we are depressed, we become less able to objectively evaluate ourselves.

Having panic attacks doesn't make you a bad person. And are you sure you're causing her trauma? What makes you think you are - has she told you that? Declining unwanted romantic interest can be awkward, but it usually isn't traumatic.

One useful exercise - imagine a friend came to you with the problems you have. What would you say to them? I'm guessing you wouldn't say "you are evil and should kill yourself".

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

One component in any therapeutic process is giving yourself credit for the progress you make and goals you accomplish. This component tends to be underemphasized by practitioners and underutilized by patients. If these people have found success through therapy, they're basically attributing to external factors what they actually accomplished, themselves.

I don't even think they have found success through therapy. In at least one case I know, therapy doesn't actually help him, it just tricks him into having a false sense of unearned pride in himself for doing the bare minimum. I don't want that to be me.

This is semantics, but delusion is a full-on denial of reality even in the face of categorically objective evidence right in front of you. Acknowledging the bad situation and making peace with the circumstances is about easing the inner turmoil going on within yourself.

The reality in front of you remains unchanged. The intended change is in how you react to it.

I see little difference in the consequences of these actions. Let's say the room you're in is on fire but there's no fire extinguisher and no obvious way out. Sure there is the option to either pretend it doesn't exist or to accept that it's there and that it's going to burn everything down but each of these choices leads to the same result which is that the fire is going to burn everything down. I don't really see how making peace with that disaster is going to make it go away. It doesn't even seem like it would provide clarity in ways to put it out. After all, why should I even put it out if I've already made peace with it?

The therapist cannot give you these answers.

It's the role of the therapist to help you look within yourself to find answers to these kinds of questions. Sometimes it's as simple as asking you a straight-shooting, point-blank question. But most often, it's not going to be that simple.

As therapy is about gaining insights into how and why you think, feel, and behave as you do, as you gain these insights, you become better equipped to answer these kinds of questions.

So, your answers may come naturally to you by way of a totally different topic. Or you may just suddenly have a "light bulb moment" where the answer hits you suddenly -- not even necessarily in an appointment. It could happen totally randomly at any point in time, even outside of the context of whatever you're thinking about in the moment.

It's comforting to believe that if a therapist just kept asking how I feel over and over that it's somehow going to brute force its way to me coming up with answers but so far that just hasn't been the case for me. If I don't have the answer then I just don't have the answer, it's as simple as that in my case. Even if this is possible it might not be with the typical therapy moment of mere 45 minute sessions every month or more. That pace is way too slow and can easily cause me to lose any train of thought that might lead to some elusive imaginary breakthrough but the way the system is designed there are no therapists that could provide a nearly 24/7 voice in my head that would have to always be there. Now maybe some people can be trained into copying the therapist's tactics on themselves but not me. I don't have the mental capacity for that.

It's interesting you label yourself an idiot, dumb, stupid, etc. while at the same time articulating this amazing amount of introspection.

The problem here isn't one of idiocy, but rather depression which has tainted a lot of this introspection.

Depression creates a divide in the way we see things: distorted vs objectively. This again is where the therapist comes in: It's the role of the therapist to help the patient keep a balance and avoid those distortion traps.

I really don't think depression or anxiety has anything to do with it and besides I don't actually consider any of what I've been saying to be even remotely intelligent. All I am doing is the equivalent of copy/pasting a Wikipedia article except the article comes from my own experiences and not my intellect. Just because I can use lots of words to recite basic facts that doesn't make me smart, if anything it makes it even stupider that I can't figure any way out of this. I see no distortion going on so a therapist constantly telling me there's a distortion happening would just be more annoying and frustrating than productive. I am aware that this too may be the result of a distortion but the fact that I know that and yet still continue is pretty concrete proof of my own idiocy.

With the risks-to-benefits ratio, you'd look at the risk of temporary emotional blunting compared to the potential of relief from persistent suffering.

I've experienced the emotional blunting of SSRIs. You'd ideally want to keep a medication journal where you track start dates, changes in dosage, any side effects, changes in mood, etc. This is preferable to relying on memory and helps pick up on negative effects faster. If you get hit with an unwanted effect, you'd just tell the doctor and look at coming off it and trying a different one.

I don't think it's that easy to just come off SSRIs, at least according to what the psychiatrist said. Having to keep a journal like that all sounds like so much work. I often forget to take my other medications for my diabetes but sometimes I will absolutely not take them out of spite for even having to take them and I'm sure the same would apply to more serious psychiatric medications of any kind.

The risk of emotional blunting is simply not worth the illusory benefit because even the psychiatrist said it was very unlikely they'll have any effect on my panic attacks. I don't even think I really have depression. Depression doesn't make sense for me because relative to so many other people my life has actually been pretty great and I can become happy fairly easily so it seems more like these medicines are likely to simply cause depression in me that wasn't there before. It seems like I have everything to lose and nothing to gain with this method.

I think you're a good candidate for Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

You nixed this earlier, if I recall, comparing it to... a different... form of... therapy...

But seriously, yes. Your skeptical view in all of this: You remind me of me before I was exposed to any in-depth therapy. In my case, I was forced into treatment, and the mental healthcare system did me right and set me on a good path, at least for a while.

In your case, while this level of skepticism is problematic with regard to the odds of seeing meaningful progress in therapy, practitioners need to be pushing back against this a bit, at least to look for and dispel any preconceived notions or underlying biases on the part of the patient. I feel like they haven't pushed back hard enough or adequately enough with you thus far, so you'd probably want to approach it with a more open mind if only to compensate for their shortcomings in that sense.

The reason I'm thinking CBT for you is because you seem to have an amazing capacity for analyzing what's going on inside your mind, and this ability of self-analysis would give you a head-start in all things relating to CBT. Also, for as much introspection as you have here, it's clearly severely distorted via depression and anxiety, and CBT would help with this.

As much sense as this makes, I can't help but feel there's still something wrong about this assessment. I don't have a good idea as to what right now. Maybe it'll come to me later. Something just doesn't feel right about CBT as a concept.

I understand where you're coming from. Again, you remind me of me before I ever gave therapy a real shot.

I guess the crux of the problem is that I know the one thing that'll open my mind, but in order to even have a small chance of getting it, it sounds like I have to do this stupid therapy stuff which I can't do because my mind isn't open yet. I don't know where to go from here to be honest.

Have you tried groups? I learned more in my bipolar group than I ever did in conventional therapy. Just being in a room with people who can actually understand what I was dealing with was really helpful. It's not quite as adversarial as a one-on-one discussion can be.

I've sat in a few group sessions when I was in university but I always felt bad because other people were dealing with genuine issues like war, discrimination, and sexual abuse while there I was whose only issue was being unable to find a girlfriend. It just made me feel more guilty so I rarely spoke out. I don't think it's wise to get people with that same issue as me in a room though. In my experience, those kinds of spaces become real problematic real fast. Just look at incels.is

Having panic attacks doesn't make you a bad person. And are you sure you're causing her trauma? What makes you think you are - has she told you that? Declining unwanted romantic interest can be awkward, but it usually isn't traumatic.

She hasn't told me anything because she can't get near me without me starting to get an elevated heartbeat and move one step closer to panicking. How can it not be traumatic to have somebody who won't take no for an answer scream in front of you multiple times? On most other days now she has to avoid me whenever we work in order to avoid setting me off which just makes doing her job harder too. And then there's the fact that other coworkers have been bothering her about it asking her what happened or whatever. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other girls who are jealous of her and have caused her grief for that although I hope nobody else is interested in me because I can't handle having to process that at all.

Here's the thing - Robin Williams thought his self-critical thoughts were the "objective truth" too. When we are depressed, we become less able to objectively evaluate ourselves.

Okay but objectively he's had plenty of successful points to his career. He even has a daughter so he was more successful in this one thing I am missing. I can't know what was going on in his head though. If he still thought something was wrong with him then who am I to judge? All I know is that for myself, everything I've said about myself is the whole truth and there is no distortion at all occurring. I've yet to see any concrete proof saying otherwise but that's because other people can't see what I see.

One useful exercise - imagine a friend came to you with the problems you have. What would you say to them? I'm guessing you wouldn't say "you are evil and should kill yourself".

If a friend really was genuinely as evil and corrupted as I then they wouldn't be my friend anymore. I would just let them rot in their own misery. It's this kind of callous selfishness that makes me unworthy of friends in the first place. I don't know why I keep getting them without trying yet I have failed to ever even get one single date with a girl. Besides, they'd be stupid to come to me for help anyway if they knew anything about my situation because if I can't even help myself how could I be expected to help them?

I hope all of my replies so far have made it abundantly clear that I'm not even worth therapitizing. I'm clearly not an easy patient to have to deal with. I have to apologize for being so frustrating to everyone even knowing that it won't do any good to apologize.

 

[-Link-]

I don't even think they have found success through therapy. In at least one case I know, therapy doesn't actually help him, it just tricks him into having a false sense of unearned pride in himself for doing the bare minimum. I don't want that to be me.

One person's experience won't really be predictive of the next person's, and therapy is much more than just "success" or "failure" as its outcomes are more spectrum-based than binary.

I don't think it's that easy to just come off SSRIs, at least according to what the psychiatrist said.

SSRIs are pretty tame for this.

You'd have a scheduled weaning-off period where you lower your dose gradually over time. Some doctors are content to pull patients off them cold-turkey (I've done this before with a few, myself), but you can state your preference. Usually with a cold-turkey stoppage there would be withdrawal symptoms, but even then, they're relatively mild and wouldn't last long. (Disclaimer: Don't ever stop a medication cold-turkey without consulting a doctor!)

I see no distortion going on so a therapist constantly telling me there's a distortion happening would just be more annoying and frustrating than productive. I am aware that this too may be the result of a distortion but the fact that I know that and yet still continue is pretty concrete proof of my own idiocy.

^^The bolded part is what a therapist would call "progress"~

I see little difference in the consequences of these actions. Let's say the room you're in is on fire but there's no fire extinguisher and no obvious way out. Sure there is the option to either pretend it doesn't exist or to accept that it's there and that it's going to burn everything down but each of these choices leads to the same result which is that the fire is going to burn everything down. I don't really see how making peace with that disaster is going to make it go away. It doesn't even seem like it would provide clarity in ways to put it out. After all, why should I even put it out if I've already made peace with it?

There are many different types of therapies with different techniques depending on the problems at hand.

With CBT, for instance, one of its distorted thinking patterns is "Mental Filtering" (focusing on the negative aspects of a situation while ignoring coinciding neutrals or positives).

So, for example, somebody with social anxiety may have a bad reaction to a friend inviting them out for the night. "My friend invited me to go out; this is going to be so tiring." Maybe they start stressing out for anticipating the energy drain. Applying CBT's "Mental Filtering" pattern to that thought would involve looking at evidence-based neutral or positive aspects of the situation and then using those to reframe the original thought: "Social outings take up a lot of energy sometimes to a point of lingering tiredness afterwards, but this friendship is important to me and I enjoy spending time in their company." The reframed thought doesn't change or deny the tiredness that results from a social outing. It just puts the focus on a different aspect of the situation with the goal of alleviating the stress of anticipatory worry about the resulting tiredness.

Some people find CBT helpful. Others, unhelpful. Ideally, a serious, concerted effort would be dedicated to it before passing judgement on what it may or may not do in any one person's situation.

As you pointed out, the usefulness of CBT (or any therapeutic technique) is dependent on the circumstances. For somebody, say, who was just assaulted... what would CBT have that person do? Tell themselves, "At least I'm still alive?" Well, technically, it's true. But it's extremely unlikely to alleviate any stress that person's feeling. If anything, it's probably going to make it worse as it goes towards invalidating the trauma of what just happened.

But part of the therapy process is learning which techniques are appropriate for which situations.

As well, a complex mental health case will usually require complex treatment, and CBT would only be one component of a larger program or regimen that involves techniques from several different therapies.

 

[willow115]

CBT might as well be equivalent to C and B Torture with how useless and painful it is. My thoughts and feelings may be unrealistic, but changing them isn't going to solve anything because the circumstances that create these thoughts will continue to exist. I don't know about other people but to say I have control over my thoughts is wishful thinking because I don't. Nothing I do actually controls them and whenever I am presented with alternate theories, they're usually even more idiotic than what I came up with.

I had this exact experience with cbt. I was grinning and bearing a remote group. I ended up quitting midway through a session after weeks of bearing it.

It does not shift reality, and our psyches are pretty fucking complicated and solitified. It felt like it was offering such shallow, almost condescending suggestions to try to improve suicidal torment. That's why deep discovery and radical honesty is all that has worked for me. Even then, here I am on sasu again, so.

I feel you, I'm with you. I hope you catch a break to feel some relief.

The benzos are dangerous. They're addictive, the body becomes dependent with overuse, withdrawals can kill, and they can degrade the brain even to the point of alzheimer's. That's why many providers don't go that route. They really remain on the market for severe and/or emergency cases.
I think therapy is like they say about exercise, the best therapy is the one that works for you. It will be painful but it should feel well in the aftermath. It should feel like it's opening you up and making new space for positive emotions as you move through it.

I did well in a trauma group and crashed and burned in cbt. We have to commit to getting back up and trying something new. I find different therapy techniques radically different in experience and outcome.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

There are many different types of therapies with different techniques depending on the problems at hand.

With CBT, for instance, one of its distorted thinking patterns is "Mental Filtering" (focusing on the negative aspects of a situation while ignoring coinciding neutrals or positives).

So, for example, somebody with social anxiety may have a bad reaction to a friend inviting them out for the night. "My friend invited me to go out; this is going to be so tiring." Maybe they start stressing out for anticipating the energy drain. Applying CBT's "Mental Filtering" pattern to that thought would involve looking at evidence-based neutral or positive aspects of the situation and then using those to reframe the original thought: "Social outings take up a lot of energy sometimes to a point of lingering tiredness afterwards, but this friendship is important to me and I enjoy spending time in their company." The reframed thought doesn't change or deny the tiredness that results from a social outing. It just puts the focus on a different aspect of the situation with the goal of alleviating the stress of anticipatory worry about the resulting tiredness.

Some people find CBT helpful. Others, unhelpful. Ideally, a serious, concerted effort would be dedicated to it before passing judgement on what it may or may not do in any one person's situation.

As you pointed out, the usefulness of CBT (or any therapeutic technique) is dependent on the circumstances. For somebody, say, who was just assaulted... what would CBT have that person do? Tell themselves, "At least I'm still alive?" Well, technically, it's true. But it's extremely unlikely to alleviate any stress that person's feeling. If anything, it's probably going to make it worse as it goes towards invalidating the trauma of what just happened.

But part of the therapy process is learning which techniques are appropriate for which situations.

As well, a complex mental health case will usually require complex treatment, and CBT would only be one component of a larger program or regimen that involves techniques from several different therapies.

I just wish I could already know which combination of processes would actually work for me specifically. I simply don't have the patience to hash it all out especially since I still don't have any actual incentive to keep on it at the moment when there's also no guarantee I'll ever even properly find this set of techniques or that they'll even work permanently.

I think therapy is like they say about exercise, the best therapy is the one that works for you. It will be painful but it should feel well in the aftermath. It should feel like it's opening you up and making new space for positive emotions as you move through it.

Much like therapy, I also hate the idea of exercise. I also have proof it's never helped me because I have a breathing problem so I don't even get all the special benefits everyone else seems to get not even when I stuck to going to the gym three to four times a week for over six months. If anything it just made me hungrier and more greedy to consume.

 

[isolatedl111]

If I may ramble a bit: I'm well aware that one of if not the most common answers to most internal problems just ends up being "seek therapy lol". I can't even resist the urge to offer this useless advice myself when asked for suggestions about someone else's challenging mental health issues. It's such a ubiquitous thing to recommend yet many of us here know it isn't the miracle solution it promises to be.

Today I was supposed to try getting a new therapist for myself to stop having panic attacks at work. The therapist I was previously seeing a few months ago dropped me after two sessions because she claimed I needed a psychiatrist. Well I spent the next couple months seeing a psychiatrist only for him to not prescribe me any medication beyond an antihistamine and for him to also drop me and claim that only talk therapy could help me. I ended up wasting today away not getting anything useful done but my managers at work strongly suggested I try again to get a different therapist after my last panic attack on Friday.

I think that process was such a pain in the ass. I already got rejected from the therapy services my primary care hospital provides. I guess because they don't believe anxiety is real or something. It's just as well. Like the title says, I just don't really even BELIEVE in therapy.

From what I can tell, it does nothing to actually solve people's problems. All it does is trick people into thinking their lives are good enough without fixing anything. It's like brainwashing and gaslighting to the extreme. What makes it even more egregious is anytime you try to point out the genuine flaws in being forced to cope with an irrational system, you just get hit with "Nuh uh, maybe YOU need to stop gaslighting yourself lol". They really can't come up with anything better than a "No You!"?

Sure therapy can be useful for some people, but so far it hasn't proved helpful at all to me. Continuing to feed everyone else's delusion isn't going to solve my own. Knowing all this, is it even worth it for me to even try? I don't think a therapist really can help me get over my crush. The only thing that can would be moving on to someone else or dying. I don't have anyone else to move on to at this point and dying is also not an option yet because I still have CTB plans to prepare for.

Mental Health Indoctrination

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Mental Health Indoctrination

Well they're not doing a very good job at it if they can't convince someone as stupid as me.